Snowden stole 'keys to the kingdom': NSA official

[Zorro]

Source: AFP

US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden effectively stole the "keys to the kingdom" when he swiped more than 1.5 million top secret files, a senior National Security Agency official said in an interview aired Sunday.

Rick Ledgett, who heads the NSA taskforce in charge of assessing the impact of Snowden's leaks, told CBS televisions's "60 Minutes" that the contractor possessed a "roadmap" of the US intelligence community's strengths and weaknesses.

NSA chief General Keith Alexander meanwhile said that suggestions the agency was routinely eavesdropping on the phone calls of Americans was false, insisting that less than 60 "US persons" were currently being targeted worldwide.

Ledgett said of particular concern was Snowden's theft of around 31,000 documents the NSA official described as an "exhaustive list of the requirements that have been levied against the National Security Agency."


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-stole-39-keys-kingdom-39-nsa-official-001233254.html

---

Snowden stole 'keys to the kingdom'. And provided them to our adversaries.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Starship Cmdr. Alexander *let* Snowden steal this stuff.

Why does Cmdr. Alexander still have his job?

[jakeXT]

54. Off with the king's head /nt

[RC]

2. Adversaries, meaning the American people.

And the citizens of friendly countries.
The biggest, baddest war monger in the world is this country. It is well past time our government gets reigned in.

[Zorro]

7. Adversaries, meaning the Russians and the Chinese

[RC]

10. And the American people.

Otherwise, why collect all that meta data on everyone in this country? Why the splitter rooms in the phone companies many switching centers around the country?
You and I, as American citizens, are considered by the NSA, to be just as much adversaries, as are the Chinese and the Russian people.

[Zorro]

13. Nope. Unless you are plotting against this country

[RC]

66. You are reading that wrong.

It is the NSA that considers the American people adversaries, by their unconstitutional spying on us. We are as suspect in what they consider wrong doing, as any citizen, in any other country.

[frylock]

91. and your evidence?

surely that will be forthcoming, no?

[LeftyMom]

3. You're going to need to answer two questions for me, please:

First, what's the evidence that Snowden provided the data to "our adversaries"?

Second, why were "the keys to the kingdom" accessible to a low level employee at a private contractor?

[yurbud]

4. Maybe this is why the Saudi-9/11 stuff is coming up again

it's a pre-emptive strike to take the edge off whatever Snowden has on that.

I think he has much, much worse stuff on our government than what has come out or they wouldn't have freaked the way they did.

[KansDem]

44. "Maybe this is why the Saudi-9/11 stuff is coming up again"

I hope to see everything related to 9/11.

[go west young man]

82. Wouldn't that be amazing...

if in those documents were proof that the neocons, the Bushie's the NSA and the Saudis were complicit in 9/11. Finally all this faux patriotism would fall away and we could see ourselves for who we really are and remake this country as a truly great one. After we imprison all the criminals.

[Indi Guy]

5. Here's the CBS link...

...to the video & transcript:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nsa-speaks-out-on-snowden-spying/

[jtuck004]

6. Good for him. Stuff needed a little more sunlight. n/t

[kickysnana]

8. A bigger question is who else stole the keys and what did they do with them?

You cannot run a program like this they way they are running it. It is the height of dangerous stupidity.

The national security apparatus set up under W has been shown to be nothing but a sham, a sieve. Stop worrying about Snowdon and start worrying about our safety and security.

I don't think we have any because of how BFEE came to power and what followed, while we cheered them on and we deserve what we got.

Snowdon is only the messenger. We need to fix the PROBLEM. The one covered up by the current Oval Office Administration. They are moving the game down the street. Same game, same sieve.

[Zorro]

11. Snowden has compromised intelligence gathering methods and techniques

You should be worried about your safety and security because of Snowden's betrayal.

[LeftyMom]

15. Are you stealing Manny's shtick?

Or are you actually serious?

[Zorro]

16. Serious as a heart attack

[LeftyMom]

19. What makes you think anything accessible to a low level contractor wasn't known by "our adversaries"

That's assuming a level of incompetence on their part that I don't think is reasonable.

Think of it this way: if Russia was hiring private contractors to manage their intelligence data, how hard would the US try to place or turn somebody in that contractor's office?

[Zorro]

22. Why do you think his access was somehow limited

when everyone directly and deeply involved with this investigation indicates otherwise?

[LeftyMom]

25. Are you accusing the NSA of gross incompetence?

His position didn't merit access to anything of great consequence, he wasn't particularly accomplished or even a government employee.

[Zorro]

28. I guess you know more about the situation than the NSA spokesmen

[frylock]

92. i think many have wisely decided not to take at face value what the nice NSA spokesmodel has to say

[Zorro]

103. A position right out of the Condi Rice playbook

[frylock]

117. beg pardon?

[Dr. Strange]

105. Not so much "knows more"...

she just has no reason to lie about it.

[jmowreader]

34. He sweet-talked his way into getting into places he shouldn't have been

"Past the gate guard" is arguably farther than Snowden needed to go, but according to the Washington Post Snowden talked people who had access to the information he wanted to give him their passwords, claiming he needed them to "do his job." The "job" he needed to do turned out to be espionage, but that's how he got what he did.

I think they're coming to the realization that Snowden has a copy of every finished file the Agency has. I don't know if he'd take working papers, but he certainly has everything else.

[LeftyMom]

36. If he could do that, why couldn't a trained spy?

There's no reason to believe that the contractors aren't lousy with them, the pre-employment screenings were being done by an overworked and incompetent private contractor, which is how the Navy shipyard shooter became a contractor even though he was a raving loon with a criminal record.

[warrant46]

88. Thanks for pointing out those here who are scratching like dogs

to cover up the dung of the now exposed surveillance system

[sendero]

121. You are a scaredy boy..

... afraid afraid. You were probably afraid of Saddam Hussein. Go hide under your mommy's skirt, you are EXACTLY the kind of loser Franklin spoke of when comparing security to freedom.

And BTW, if you knew FUCK ALL about this entire situation you would know that no documents detailing our methods have or will be released.

Find another straw man scaredy boy.

[kickysnana]

90. Sorry, I am not about to shoot the messanger and let the bad guys go.

Snowdon = messenger (saying the Emperor has no clothes)
Bad guys = BFEE, NSA, HS, corporations who benefit from this with no cost to them to but huge damage to Americans safety, freedom and security.
You = "pay no attention to the messenger, or your lying eyes." (I have to ask what are you getting for this campaign that is direct conflict with my families' best interests.?)

You truthfully should be called "Theboywhocriedwolf". Zorro stood up to the bad guys not covered for them.

[Zorro]

108. Are you asserting that there are no terrorist threats to the US?

If not, what's you solution to the problem?

[MNBrewer]

9. "OUR" adversaries! how funny!

What if "our" adversaries are also our "overlords"?

FUCK the Surveillance State!

[Zorro]

14. I suppose you don't recall the events of September 11

[LeftyMom]

17. You have evidence Snowden gave "the keys to the kingdom" to some Saudi religious fanatics?

Why aren't you on the phone with the NYT? That's some stop the presses breaking news. You'd be famous.

[Zorro]

18. Apparently willful ignorance is not an exclusively Republican characteristic

[LeftyMom]

20. So you don't have evidence?

[Zorro]

23. The people that know have been making it quite clear

Do you think they are working against the interests of the country?

[LeftyMom]

26. I'm skeptical of unevidenced assertions. You should be too.

[Zorro]

29. Perhaps you recall this statement

"I don't think that anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon, that they would try to use an airplane as a missile."

Condi Rice

That statement captures the GWB administration attitude, despite George Tenet's "hair on fire" assertions that a major but unspecified terrorist attack was imminent prior to 9/11.

[LeftyMom]

30. Nobody on this thread appears to be buying this shit.

Why don't you go try it somewhere else?

[Zorro]

32. Are you asserting that Snowden did not compromise the security of the country?

[LeftyMom]

33. That's not how evidence works. You need to prove that he did.

[Zorro]

35. These are administration spokesmen and people familiar with the situation making these statements

If you don't believe them, then apparently you think the Obama administration is misleading the citizens.

Do you think the Obama administration is not serving the interests of the country?

[LeftyMom]

37. I'm wondering what color the sky is on your planet.

[Zorro]

38. Do you think the Obama administration is misleading the citizens on this matter?

Simple question.

[LeftyMom]

45. I don't believe anybody's unevidenced assertions, and I'm certainly not about to start for

the frequently contradictory leaks of un-named security officials.

[carla]

58. Being in bed

with the Saudis and Israelis compromises the security of the US. Troll.

[solarhydrocan]

70. Condi Rice was lying

That guy ended up being co chair of the original "investigation", and was co-author of the unPatriot act. He was also a CIA op in the early 60's- a member of Operation 40- a great bunch of guys that orchestrated coups.

[dotymed]

63. "Apparently willful ignorance is not an exclusively Republican characteristic"

I think that your posts have shown that.

The information provided by Snowden proves that we are a police state that does not recognize human rights.

If you cannot understand that, there is no reason to go further.

[Zorro]

77. For someone who's posted their opinions thousands of times

on a website publicly accessible by literally billions of people, your assertion that we are in a police state that does not recognize human rights rings rather hollow.

[Hissyspit]

27. And you don't seem to recall that 9/11 could

have been prevented without half this crap they are pulling now. The administration in power let it happen.

And you seem to forget all the bullshit "terrah" alerts after 9/11.

Sorry. Not buying your fear-mothering. Seen it all before.

These people who are to keep us safe with these abilities and information are he ones who let Snowden take off with it. How much should I be trusting them?

[carla]

57. Citing 9/11?

Troll.

[MannyGoldstein]

62. Russian authorities warned us twice about the elder Boston Bomber Brother

Yet there was no real attempt to deal with it.

Given that they can't manage an operating chainsaw in a haystack, and given that their security is so pathetic that a 29-year-old noob contractor can steal it all, it is extraordinarily unlikely that the Security Apparatus will be finding any needles in haystacks; but history has shown that such data *will* be used for great mischief. Which is why its gathering is unconstitutional.

[OnyxCollie]

68. I recall the events of September 11

and my recollection is not discolored by fear and submissiveness.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/blackops/17

ATTORNEY GENERAL MICHAEL MUKASEY

On March 27, 2008, Attorney General Michael Mukasey, speaking at the Commonwealth Club in defense of the Bush Administrations surveillance program and proposing changes to FISA, made the statement that before the 2001 terrorist attacks

“We knew that there had been a call from someplace that was known to be a safe house in Afghanistan and we knew that it came to the United States. We didn’t know precisely where it went. You’ve got 3,000 people who went to work that day, and didn’t come home, to show for that.” (Egelko, 2008).


In a letter to Attorney General Mukasey from Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee; Rep. Jerry Nadler, Chairman of the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties; and Rep. Bobby Scott, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security (hereinafter “Conyers Letter”), Rep. Conyers responds to Attorney General Mukasey’s statement:

This statement is very disturbing for several reasons. Initially, despite extensive inquiries after 9/11, I am aware of no previous reference, in the 9/11 Commission report or elsewhere, to a call from a known terrorist safe house in Afghanistan to the United States which, if it had been intercepted, could have prevented the 9/11 attacks. In addition, if the Administration had known of such communications from suspected terrorists, they could and should have been intercepted based on existing FISA law. For example, even assuming that a FISA warrant was required to intercept such calls, as of 9/11 FISA specifically authorized such surveillance on an emergency basis without a warrant for a 48 hour period. If such calls were known about and not intercepted, serious additional concerns would be raised about the government’s failure to take appropriate action before 9/11. (Conyers, Nadler, Scott, 2008).


In a statement provided to Glenn Greenwald (2008) at Salon, former Rep. Lee Hamilton, the vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, stated:

I am unfamiliar with the telephone call that Attorney General Michael Mukasey cited in his appearance in San Francisco on March 27. The 9/11 Commission did not receive any information pertaining to its occurrence.


Additionally, Greenwald (2008) provides an email response from Philip Zelikow, the 9/11 Commission Executive Director (and former Counselor to Condolleeza Rice) (ellipses in original):

Not sure of course what the AG had in mind, although the most important signals intelligence leads related to our report -- that related to the Hazmi-Mihdhar issues of January 2000 or to al Qaeda activities or transits connected to Iran -- was not of this character. If, as he says, the USG didn't know where the call went in the US, neither did we. So unless we had some reason to link this information to the 9/11 story....

In general, as with several covert action issues for instance, the Commission sought (and succeeded) in publishing details about sensitive intelligence matters where the details were material to the investigative mandate in our law.


Greenwald (2008) offers two possible scenarios regarding Mukasey’s statement. Either

(1) The Bush Administration concealed this obviously vital episode from the 9/11 Commission and from everyone else, until Mukasey tearfully trotted it out last week; or
(2) Mukasey, the nation’s highest law enforcement officer, made this up in order to scare and manipulate Americans into believing that FISA and other surveillance safeguards caused the 9/11 attacks and therefore the Government should be given unchecked spying powers.

...

Useful idiots are not limited to the Republican party.

[Zorro]

104. So what's your solution to the threat of terrorism?

[OnyxCollie]

106. To start, the US government could stop killing people in foreign countries

and/or propping up dictatorships for the benefit of large corporations. That would reduce the threat of terrorism.

If rolling on your back and wetting yourself in submission is your thing, go for it.

[Zorro]

107. What dictatorships is the US propping up for the benefit of large corporations?

I'm curious as to which countries you believe fit that category.

And you seem to have a urination obsession. Perhaps you should wear an adult diaper.

[riderinthestorm]

110. I cant speak for Onyx but KSA and big oilco comes to mind immediately nt

We've propped up many dictators in the ME for the big oil companies over the past decades.

[Zorro]

113. I'd argue that maintaining a strong relationship with the KSA is beneficial for everyone

The country's name itself is reflective of its rather unique status. It is the kingdom of the Saud tribe.

[OnyxCollie]

116. "...maintaining a strong relationship with the KSA is beneficial for everyone."

Uh, no it's not.

The US depends on Saudi Arabia for oil; Saudi Arabia depends on the US for arms. (Saudi Arabia is the largest purchaser of US arms.)

The people of Saudi Arabia are opposed to the monarchy's relationship with the US. They're also pissed about how affluent the monarchy is while the majority of people have little opportunity for advancement. Hence, the need for more US made weapons.

15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabian. It's one of the benefits of "maintaining a strong relationship with the KSA."

[riderinthestorm]

120. We prop up their dictators period. You asked and I gave you an answer.

That "strong relationship" (cough) comes at the price of terrorism here and abroad against Americans.

[OnyxCollie]

114. Well, the US did prop up Qaddafi.

Until France decided it wanted Libya's oil.

Prior to that, the US was selling arms to Libya to support their "anti-terrorism" program, i.e. a torture program.

SUBJECT: CODEL MCCAIN MEETS MUAMMAR AND MUATASSIM AL-QADHAFI
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/08/09TRIPOLI677.html#

CLASSIFIED BY: Joan Polaschik, Charge d'Affaires, U.S. Embassy
Tripoli, Department of State.
REASON: 1.4 (b), (d)
¶1. (C) CODEL McCain discussed security, counterterrorism, and
civil-nuclear cooperation during August 14 meetings with Libyan
leader Muammar al-Qadhafi and his son, National Security Advisor
Muatassim al-Qadhafi, stressing the need for Libya to fulfill
its WMD-related commitments and to approve a Section 505
end-user agreement in order to move forward on bilateral
military and civil-nuclear engagement. While Muatassim
al-Qadhafi reiterated long-standing Libyan requests for security
assurances from the United States and emphasized Libya's
interest in the purchase of U.S. lethal and non-lethal military
equipment, Muammar al-Qadhafi was notably silent on these
subjects. The elder Qadhafi made a point of expressing his
satisfaction with the improved U.S relationship and his hope
that the relationship would continue to flourish. CODEL
McCain's discussion of the Megrahi case was reported ref A. End
summary.

THE MEETING

¶2. (SBU) CODEL McCain (R-Az), including Senator Joe Lieberman
(I-CT), Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Senator Susan Collins
(R-SC) and Senate Armed Services Committee Staffer Richard
Fontaine held back-to-back meetings August 14 with Libyan
National Security Advisor Muatassim al-Qadhafi and Libyan leader
Muammar Al-Qadhafi. Libyan officials NSC Director Dr. Hend
Siala, MFA Department of Americas Secretary Ahmed Fituri and MFA
Office of Americas Director Mohamed Matari also attended the
meetings, as did Charge and Pol/Econ Chief (notetaker).

MUATASSIM MEETING SECURITY FOCUSED

¶3. (C) Characterizing the overall pace of the bilateral
relationship as excellent, CODEL McCain opened its August 14
meeting with National Security Advisor Muatassim al-Qadhafi by
noting the drastic change that the relationship had undergone
over the last five years. "We never would have guessed ten
years ago that we would be sitting in Tripoli, being welcomed by
a son of Muammar al-Qadhafi," remarked Senator Lieberman. He
stated that the situation demonstrated that change is possible
and expressed appreciation that Libya had kept its promises to
give up its WMD program and renounce terrorism. Lieberman
called Libya an important ally in the war on terrorism, noting
that common enemies sometimes make better friends. The Senators
recognized Libya's cooperation on counterterrorism and conveyed
that it was in the interest of both countries to make the
relationship stronger. They encouraged Libya to sign the Highly
Enriched Uranium transfer agreement by August 15 in order to
fulfill its obligation to transfer its nuclear spent fuel to
Russia for treatment and disposal. [Note: The Libyan Government
subsequently informed us of its intent to sign the agreement on
August 17 and has begun taking good-faith steps to do so

4.(C) Muatassim welcomed the high-level visit, describing it as a good sign for the relationship - a relationship that Libya wants to develop. He explained to the Senators the recent requests that the National Security Council had made to procure defense equipment. He stated that there were three categories of requests: one which was approved by the USG, another which awaited congressional approval, and a third which waited USG agreement. He reiterated the refrain he conveyed to Secretary Clinton during his April visit (ref C) -- Libya has not been adequately rewarded for its decision to give up WMD and needed some sort of security assurance from the United States. He emphasized the need for Libya to purchase U.S. non-lethal equipment in order to enhance its defense posture.

Libya/US: Investigate Death of Former CIA Prisoner
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/05/11/libyaus-investigate-death-former-cia-prisoner

(New York) – The Libyan authorities should carry out a full and transparent investigation of the reported suicide of the Libyan prisoner Ali Mohamed al-Fakheri, also known as Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, Human Rights Watch said today. Al-Libi, who was held in secret US and Egyptian detention from late 2001 to at least 2005, was found dead in his cell in Abu Salim prison in Tripoli. Human Rights Watch spoke with him briefly in the Tripoli prison on April 27, though he refused to be interviewed.

After his arrest in Pakistan in late 2001, al-Libi was sent by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to Egypt in 2002, under the procedure known as “rendition.” According to a CIA declassified cable and a US Senate report, he was tortured in Egypt and gave false information about a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda that Colin Powell, then the secretary of state, used in his speech to the UN Security Council on the planned war with Iraq. Al-Libi was later held by the CIA in a series of secret prisons in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

~snip~

Al-Libi was returned from US custody to Libya in late 2005 or early 2006 and was detained at Abu Salim prison. The Abu Salim prison authorities told Human Rights Watch in April 2009 that he had been sentenced to life imprisonment by the State Security Court, a court whose trial proceedings fail to conform to international fair trial standards.

Human Rights Watch briefly met with al-Libi on April 27 during a research mission to Libya. He refused to be interviewed, and would say nothing more than: “Where were you when I was being tortured in American jails.” Human Rights Watch has strongly condemned the CIA’s detention program and documented how detainees in CIA custody were abused, but, like other human rights groups, was never granted access to prisoners in CIA custody.

Was Benghazi Killing of Ambassador Stevens, 3 Others "Blowback" for Secret U.S. Assassinations?
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/1/was_deadly_benghazi_killing_of_ambassador

JACK MURPHY: Sure. There’s a number of different contributing factors that led to these attacks. When we start to talk about the blowback effect, we do also have to understand that this was a group of people, the Ansar al-Sharia militia, that wasn’t particularly fond of Americans to begin with. There was a large number of foreign fighters, these international jihadists, who were amongst that group the night of the attack. But what hasn’t been talked about very much in the media is that there were covert operations being run inside Libya, targeted killings against militia members, al-Qaeda-affiliated personnel, also involving securing weapons that had fallen into the militia hands, that we didn’t want them to have in the post-war Libya that was destabilizing the Libyan transitional government. But there were a series of operations over the course of the summer and even that week of September in the run-up to the attack.

AMY GOODMAN: U.S. government allies were also assassinated, were killed.

JACK MURPHY: You’re talking about the British embassy that was attacked?

AMY GOODMAN: No, I was talking about what led up—what so angered the Libyans as they were moving—as we were moving into September 11th of that year.

JACK MURPHY: Well, allegedly, there was even a CIA asset that was targeted and killed in that first week of September prior to the attack.

AMY GOODMAN: By who? Killed by?

JACK MURPHY: By the United States military, by special operations personnel.

AMY GOODMAN: A CIA asset killed by U.S. personnel.

JACK MURPHY: Allegedly. And this phenomena has happened previously in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to prove for certain that this individual was an asset, but you can only imagine what’s going through the heads of the militia members as they feel that they’re working hand in hand with the Americans and then all of a sudden the Americans kill one of their people. And this was—this was definitely one of the events that led to the special operations forces actually kicking up the hornets’ nest in Libya, and it was a contributing factor that led to the attack in Benghazi.

Don't forget how glowingly Joe Biden referred to Hosni Mubarek when the uproar started in Egypt. Egypt was a great place for the CIA to send people to be tortured.

I don't see how mentioning urine once in our discussion qualifies as an "obsession." Maybe you should lay off licking the authoritarian boot leather for a while; the toluene in the shoe polish is affecting your brain.

[RC]

69. September 11, 2001. Why didn't the NSA warn us of the coming attack?

There is no evidence they did.
The Clinton Administration knew about it and tried to warn the incoming bu$h administration.

[Pholus]

98. They say that had too much data to "connect the dots."

The obvious solution to that was to greatly ratchet up the amount of collection.

It all makes sense if you think about it, right?

[RC]

99. More than likely, Cheney told them to not bother with that information.

How could they not know? The Clinton Administration knew and passed the information on.

[Pholus]

100. It'll be fun to find out!

I have come to the conclusion that the Greenwald stories have a deliberate arc.

We spent the last six months debating all the technology and the programs. The controversy as the NSA proxies tried to suppress it all had the net effect of educating everyone about what was being done and what is possible.

My theory is that was the game plan -- because people had to know WHAT was being done in order to appreciate how it is being used.

So I bet the next few leaks start describing how all this stuff HAS been used. And it likely isn't pretty.

Certainly, the NSA proxies have been rather spooked lately. I enjoy that. A lot. If this was winding down that wouldn't happen.

So who knows? Maybe your theory is part of it.

Personally, my popcorn is popped and the butter is on it. So, let's see what happens!

[frylock]

93. no, what's that?

[Turbineguy]

12. Another advantage of privatizing.

That's why we all love republicans. Their policies are so helpful.

[annm4peace]

21. I love Snowden and wish there were more Whistle blowers

Snowden is a true American Patriot.

I watched the whole 60 minutes episode and thought it was pathetic.

I actually can't wait to see they postings from other intelligence veterans on their take of 60 minutes spear piece. Can they be more obvious?


Can't wait to here what ret. CIA agent Ray McGovern, and ret FBI Coleen Rowley and Thomas Drake have to say.

I hope more intelligence veterans speak out.

[Zorro]

24. Snowden has betrayed the USA

and has made it less safe for you and your family.

[grasswire]

39. I don't believe you are going to convince anyone here of what you say.

What you spout is simply your opinion. Signifying nothing.

[Zorro]

40. It's also the opinion of administration officials

Their opinion matters more than mine. Or yours.

[grasswire]

43. well, no

When "administrative officials" have demonstrated their willingness to lie and obfuscate to protect their nearly useless programs, their opinion matters very little compared to the opinions of those who seek the truth wherever it may lead.

Question authority, sonny. Question authority.

[JackRiddler]

72. The NSA is a danger to Americans.

Snowden is defending Americans.

The NSA are our "adversaries."

[nilesobek]

87. I take care of my own safety

I don't need or want their protection. Megalomaniac alphabet soup agencies who lie, cheat and torture are something we ought to be protected from. You have failed to explain or provide proof of just who, exactly, we are to be protected from. Its high time to fold DHS, NSA and others into the Army and phase them out.

[JDPriestly]

31. What is your evidence that he provided them to "our" adversaries?

I don't think you have any evidence or proof other than the simple fact that he ended up in China and Russia. Beyond that you have no proof whatsoever.

He says he did not take documents to Russia. I believe him. At least I have more reason to trust his word than to trust the word of anyone in our government with regard to this issue. He knows what he did and did not do and as far as I can tell has been honest about what he has done.

The NSA on the other hand was not honest about what it was doing, and I do not trust any claims it makes now.

That the list of people that the NSA listens to on a regular basis is short does not change the fact that the NSA is collecting a horrific, a dangerously horrific amount of metadata on the American people.

The collection of metadata is to me a greater threat than anything the NSA does outside of placing leaders and agencies in our allied countries under surveillance with no reason at all.

But then, everything the NSA is doing troubles me.

Snowden? Doesn't worry me as much. The Russian and Chinese governments have probably known for a long time just about everything our NSA does. They probably figured it out a long time ago. The Russians were already pretty good hackers in the 1980s as I understand it.

[Zorro]

41. Is the collection of metadata a greater threat than planes flying into buildings?

Is the collection of metadata a greater threat than a dirty bomb exploding in a metropolitan area?

[ronnie624]

51. Irrational fear of terrorism is a bigger threat to our democracy.

Stoked by propaganda, it provokes irrational judgments about 'security', which enables greater control by our government, of a more compliant population.

Only the extremely weak-minded, will be swayed by your sophomoric fear-mongering.

[Zorro]

109. So what's your solution to the threat of terrorism?

Or are you asserting there isn't any real threats out there?

[ronnie624]

118. More cooperative relations with other countries

in an attempt to solve the problems that pose real threats to humanity, like rapidly declining energy sources, overpopulation and the poisoning of our biosphere. It is the self-serving policies that seek to control resources and markets throughout the world for the sake of profit -- the root cause of poverty and injustice -- that provokes terrorism.

This should be obvious to all progressives.

[JDPriestly]

52. Yes. The collection of metadata is the greater threat to our country.

It is rare for a plane to fly into a building. A dirty bomb exploding in a metropolitan area would be extremely rare and unlikely. It certainly hasn't happened yet.

As I often explain, the men and women who explored and founded and built America were pretty fearless. They faced horrible threats without the kind of petty anxiety we have today. They valued their independence and freedom.

The collection of metadata in the wrong hands would be far more threatening to the vast majority of Americans and to our national spirit and democratic traditions than the killing of thousands of people. I certainly hope that no Americans are killed by terrorists or by disease or bears or crazed gun-worshipers or foreign invaders or by any of the other threats. But sacrificing your privacy and thus your political independence, your integrity, that is the worst fate of all.

I say this as one who has known many people who survived NAZI Germany and Communism. We have no idea how totalitarian states can suppress thought, how such states scare people into silent acquiescence. Perhaps Americans just have to suffer through a dictatorship in order to realize how utterly dangerous the metadata collection is.

It's very sad to me. I think a lot of people just have no idea, no idea at all about what it means to live in surveillance state.

[Zorro]

76. Use a phone? The phone companies collect your metadata

It is their business to know when you called, the number you called, the time you called, the area where you called from, and the call duration.

Watch cable? The cable companies collect your metadata. It is their business to know what channels you are tuned to.

Use the internet? The ISPs and web sites collect your metadata. It is their business to know what sites you visit and surf to.

Use credit cards? The merchant companies collect your metadata. It is their business to know when and what you purchased.

I find it quite disturbing that people think the collection of metadata is far more threatening than the killing of thousands of people. It's the same perverse argument used by Second Amendment fanatics: that Sandy Hook is the price we must pay to keep our right to bear arms.

[OnyxCollie]

80. I find it quite disturbing that people

Last edited Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:11 PM - Edit history (1)

would willingly give up their constitutionally guaranteed rights because .00001 of the population was killed in a terrorist attack.

[randome]

81. We have no constitutionally protected right to third-party business records such as metadata.

That has been ruled many times in the courts.

You want to change that? Fine. But right now it has exactly zero to do with our Constitution.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[JDPriestly]

102. There is no democracy without First Amendment rights and the surveillance

eradicates freedom of religion, speech, assembly, just about all of our rights and freedoms.

[Zorro]

111. So what rights have been eradicated?

Religion? I haven't heard of the government shutting down any churches. Have you?

Speech? For someone with over 40 thousand posts on this website, it certainly doesn't seem to be the case.

Assembly? From the hundreds of thousands that have protested in DC over the past several years, it doesn't seem as if that right has been eliminated.

[JDPriestly]

115. Please study up on the concept of "chilling speech" which is fundamental to our constitutional law

and then come back for a serious discussion.

The court's decision that the NSA spying may be unconstitutional is based on the underlying principle that the Fourth Amendment protects our fundamental right to privacy. The government must abstain from unreasonable searches and seizures and must obtain a warrant based on probable cause before searching and seizing our private effects, writings, etc.

If the government wants to or feels it needs to violate such a fundamental right, it must demonstrate to the court that it has a compelling ground for doing so and that the compelling ground outweighs our fundamental right to privacy that the government wishes to violate.

The government has not shown a compelling reason for collecting our metadata, not one that outweighs our fundamental right to privacy. It has the opportunity to prove in court that it is collecting all that information based on some compelling ground. I doubt that the government can prove that it has such a compelling ground. Collecting information about terrorism and on the communications of terrorists would give the NSA the right to collect the data on those specifically suspected of terrorism or of supporting terrorists in some way. And by the way, since we enjoy freedom of religion, simply having a Muslim name or attending a mosque would not be sufficient reason to deprive someone of their constitutional rights.

The Constitution guarantees our right to privacy under the Fourth Amendment and our other rights, such as the right to freedom of religion and speech and the press and assembly under the First Amendment. The government has violated our right to privacy under the Fourth Amendment just by collecting private information about our communications. That is abhorrent and clearly the kind of thing that the Fourth Amendment, in spite of prior Supreme Court decisions that whittle away at its protection, intended to prohibit. The government has to show that it has a compelling ground to violate the right. We don't have to show that we were injured or have economic or personal damages due to the violation. That is because it is our fundamental right. You don't have to prove that you have a right. It is guaranteed to you in the Constitution or other laws.

The reason I post my opinions so openly on DU is that I am retired. I no longer have an employer. If I did, the fact that the NSA could identify me and read my posts and could retaliate against me by informing my employer about what I say and thus perhaps cause my employer to fire me would cause me serious damages.

Many people probably think carefully about what they write on the internet because, even though they do not write something harmful or threatening, they write something controversial (like my writings) and they do not want their employers to know about it.

How interested your employer might be in what you think and how you express yourself on the internet might depend upon the field in which you work. The NSA collects my metadata and can see from just how many and from which politicians I receive e-mails. That information reveals my opinions, my political stance on things. That I watched some of the Occupy webcams was possibly noted by the NSA. If I were still working, the NSA could potentially cause me trouble in my workplace by advising my employer about my internet browsing habits -- my political ties. Thus, people, for example active Democrats with conservative Republicans bosses, could definitely suffer damage, injury in that their freedom to speak out and write their opinions on the internet. That they might hold back or have held back or not expressed their opinions proves that their speech has been curtailed or "chilled" if you will.

Yes. People have suffered and are suffering important damages to their abilities to exercise their rights to freedom of religion, of speech, of assembly and especially the freedom of the press thanks to the NSA surveillance.

The ACLU is one of the organizations opposing the NSA collections. It can claim damages. It is imperative that organizations like the ACLU be free from surveillance. Same for organizations we tend to think of as right-wing. Makes little difference which political view the organization represents, the NSA spying would have a tendency to injure the ability of political or activist organizations to raise money or encourage people to request their help.

Yes. People have been damaged. Our democracy has already been damaged. And our relationships with several, perhaps many, foreign countries have been damaged because of the NSA surveillance.

[NorthCarolina]

84. Attempting to stoke "fear" won't work on this site.

Folks here are a little more savvy than that, and can generally think for themselves. You should post your fearmongering on the Free Republic website instead of here on this site...your efforts will be much more fruitful there, and virtually everyone there will think you're a god or something. I can almost guarantee it.

[annm4peace]

97. The NSA didn't uncover nor stop the planes from flying in the building

Just ask Coleen Rowley. The FBI, and CIA both had intelligence they chose not to listen to and if they had they might have been able to stop the planes flying into buildings.

They have not stopped any of the terror attacks after 911. They didn't uncover the the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, the Time Square bomber, or the Boston bombers.

Yet they have used Billions of our tax dollars to spy on US citizens as well as foreigners. They have piled more hay on the haystack.

There are many private companies that work for the NSA and they have our data and are making billions from spying on US citizens.

When did WE become the enemy?

[AZ Progressive]

42. If that stuff was so top secret then why were contractors allowed access to that information

Heads should be rolling in the NSA if what they are saying is true.

[SoapBox]

46. Heads rolling?

Little Comrade Eddie, Thief of Top National Secrets...needs to "roll" with them.

Comrade Eddie is portrayed like some kind of innocent by the Tin Foil Hat crowd. He schemed to scam and exposed our nation to terrorist actions...and then fled the country.

Guess he didn't love being American and America enough, to want to live here because he ain't NEVER coming back.

Enjoy being a lapdog for Russia...if not China...or maybe try Somalia, Traitor.

[frylock]

94. oh looky, more redbaiting bullshit..

is this the spirit of sen. McCarthy?

[GeorgeGist]

47. Benghazi!

[GliderGuider]

49. Does that mean I have to take a drink now?

I t sounds like a great drinking game. Whenever someone shouts "Benghazi!" we have to chug whatever is in our hand. Wish I hadn't been holding that Texas mickey

[DeSwiss]

48. And what kingdom is that again?

''And provided them to our adversaries.''

- Our adversaries? You presume too much. My adversaries are in NYC on Wall Street.

[JackRiddler]

73. The Kingdom of Mordor

Surveillance, imperialism and murder operations worldwide have been endangered by the constitutionalist Snowden.

[BelgianMadCow]

96. ...

from one of n2doc's invaluable threads:

[GliderGuider]

50. "Our" adversaries?

Do you believe the interests of your government and the American people coincide? If so, you're a fool.
Do you have some kind of vested interest in promoting this threadbare position? If so, you're a fool.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

53. Bastard stole my car keys too! n/t

[blkmusclmachine]

55. It's a War on the Average American Citizen

It's time we admitted what's right in front of our face. Question is, WHO are these people, REALLY?!?!

[silvershadow]

56. I think he read one of my e-mails. I swear I do. Hey, look over there- a shiny thing.

In other words, NSA good, Snowden baaaaad. (At least I think that's the official line).

[JackRiddler]

59. It's not a kingdom, it's a criminal enterprise.

The NSA is not "we" -- it is "they."

The NSA is "our adversaries."

The NSA is more enemy and more threat to the people in America than the countries you imagine are our "our" adversaries.

Snowden, of course, did not "provide" these "keys to the kingdom" of the unlimited surveillance state to "adversaries." He opened up the secrets of an unaccountable authority to everyone in the world. That is a big difference.

It is not "espionage" but exposure of criminal activity by an illegitimate, extraconstitutional, by-definition criminal enterprise that has been set up as though it fulfills a legitimate function of government. It does not.

[woo me with science]

101. [phone]

Well said.

[riderinthestorm]

112. +another 200000000 nt

[mitty14u2]

60. “60 Minutes” on Snowden and NSA

By Benjamin Wittes
Sunday, December 15, 2013 at 8:43 PM


They got remarkable access both to people and to facilities

http://www.lawfareblog.com/

[riderinthestorm]

61. First they insist no Americans were being spied on, now they admit they ARE spying on Americans

But only 60 or so....

[randome]

71. Most likely those 60 are in contact with foreign individuals.

That is the exception they have always maintained. One of the communicants must be outside the U.S.

You can't monitor only one part of a conversation. You can't 'un-hear' what other parties communicate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Autumn]

64. Snowden stole 'keys to the kingdom'. And provided them to our adversaries.

our adversaries all what? 60 of them that was the fluffiest bit of propaganda on a "major" TV show I have ever seen,

[TBF]

65. FFS, is this 1952? nt

[on point]

67. Snowden gave the keys to the American people. He is a hero. End of story.

[adirondacker]

74. Is the company that Snowden worked for still in business?

[randome]

75. I don't recall if the vetting process was outside Booz-Allen or not.

Weren't there 2 people or so who were charged with negligence in vetting Snowden?

At any rate, the NSA is as much to blame as Booz-Allen since their employees gave Snowden their passwords. There should have been much greater internal security in place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[adirondacker]

85. I'm a bit jaded and sceptical when it comes to mixing corporate business and Our Government.

I would think that seeing the disastrous effects of Halliburton, Xe, and now Booz Allen on our country's abilities and credibility might make some at the top question whether this is an idea worthy for the greater good. If they're in it to cash in, then I guess anything goes.

[randome]

86. Hell, private contracting is EVERYWHERE. It endangers corporations as well as government.

The only thing contracting is good for is short-term massaging of the bottom line.

That is something that needs to be reined in, as well.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[adirondacker]

89. Ironically,

I'm about to accept a contractor position headed by a couple of Europeans to perform state government work. I've given up trying to obtain a government position due to the lack of, and selective nature(degree and gender preference) of, positions in my field. Fortunately, the two gentleman I'll be working for are highly knowledgeable and fairly liberal.

[randome]

95. I'm a contractor, too, and sometimes I enjoy that freedom but...

...we would all be better off, I think, with less reliance on contractors in general. Good luck to you!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Sunlei]

78. yeah and how many other hundreds of people had similar access to those files & didn't get caught.

[randome]

79. A lot more now since those files are presumably on corporate media servers across the world.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[polynomial]

83. Snowden stole 'keys to the kingdom' Sure did!

Sixty minutes is part of the metadata cover-up.

The whole thing is messed up, and they bring out the brass and leave in the background under the radar Bandar Bush, the kids in the Bush family call Bandar Bin Laden, Uncle Bandar. That was one of the funniest notations in Gerald Posners book “Secrets of the Kingdom”. This Bin Laden family has been doing business with the Bush and Cheney Companies for about thirty years.

Just think of it Booze Allen and Hamilton core business is public relations another words “Sales”. You who, you out there people do you get my point.

To explain: From my view one the most perfect ways to commit treason is on the American tax dollar, the bonus of secrecy is the attractive compelling prudent reason the Arabs are not talked about. The mainstream media is in it with no recourse but to lie and conjure anyway to confuse the issue of treason. This is not just a security scam it involves many of the highest level political, business, banking, Wall Street, plus connecting to the military industrial complex.

The best feature is the deception, with American tax dollars, mixing counter anti-terrorism using sales to confuse the communications broadband metadata. That exactly is the way the Arabs work secretly and with Jihad forever to remove the American infidel off the face of the earth.

The real sexy wet juicy stuff is totally ignored covered up, stashed like a lot of metadata on you and me. The Bin Laden family close business partners with the Bush family are caught profiteering. There are several articles on this blog even noted by Hillary to admit that the Arabs the Bin Laden family have been financiers of Al Qaeda for “decades”. Through the Carlyle group, noted by Thom Hartmann, the Bin Laden and Bush families doing business in the international market profiteered for premium portfolios.

Sometimes my views seem unordinary because this might be a political plan long time in the process. Can you imagine President Obama treading lightly in the midst of rampant corruption holding America together as best he can.

President Obama is working through the laws generated by Reagan and Company decades ago, with this Sequester thing. I looked up the some of the ideas about the sequester and a basic definition;

It is simply the seizure of property for creditors or the state. Again little talked about in the mainstream media because of the political banking family embarrassment , but obnoxious, with Constitutionally antithetical overtones in Michigan and Wisconsin.

[Jesus Malverde]

119. The lack security at the NSA means that any adversary could have also stolen these same files...

We just don't know about it because they never went public. If heads should roll, it's those who designed this system and stored all the crown jewels with NO security.

The biggest revelation out of this episode, is how poor the security is at the NSA and that their megalomaniac director likes to play star trek... woosh woosh went the doors.

Clapper should be in jail for lying, Alexander for dereliction of duty and conduct unbecoming an officer.