Experts: Translated Toyota Memo Shows Electronic Acceleration Concern

[Hissyspit]

Source: CNN

Experts: Translated Toyota memo shows electronic acceleration concern

By David Fitzpatrick and Drew Griffin, CNN Special Investigations Unit
updated 8:11 PM EST, Thu March 1, 2012

A rash of reports of sudden, unintended accelerations led to a massive recall of more than 8 million Toyota vehicles in 2010.

Washington (CNN) -- Toyota engineers found an electronic software problem that caused "sudden unintended acceleration" in a test vehicle during pre-production trials, according to a company engineering document obtained by and translated for CNN.

The 2006 document, marked "confidential," recounted the results of an adaptive cruise-control software test in a model internally designated the 250L, a vehicle later sold as the Lexus 460 in Japan and Europe. The document says a "fail-safe overhaul" would be needed for another model in production, internally designated the 180L, which the company says was later sold as a Toyota Tundra.

Toyota insists that the document shows no such thing, and it continues to deny that any sudden unintended acceleration in any of its vehicles was caused by electronic systems. But three translations of the report, including two commissioned by CNN after Toyota's objections, found that engineers raised concerns that the adaptive cruise control system would start the car moving forward on its own.

Read the original document and English translations here
"The cruise control activates by itself at full throttle when the accelerator pedal position sensor is abnormal," states the document, written in Japanese, translated into English.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/01/us/toyota-memo-acceleration-concerns/index.html

[saras]

1. Fuck their documents. Physical tests by an independent outside lab. Failure is failure.

And it's not fucking Microsoft Windows. We really do have the ability to make this sort of thing simply work.

"The cruise control activates by itself at full throttle when the accelerator pedal position sensor is abnormal," states the document, written in Japanese, translated into English.

That's a simple test that would take less than ten minutes. And it's the only test that matters - what do the REAL CARS do?

[Auntie Bush]

2. Well my REAL car accelerated all by itself !

I stopped to let passengers out, then tried to move it up a couple feet to park it in front of my garage door and instead it blew right through my garage door in an explosion of glass, boards and debris. It went so fast I actually thought I was going to come right out the other side. There was nothing I could do to stop it! Luckily heavy equipment stopped it!

It did $7,000 worth of damage to my home and $7,000 damage to my car. I only had it for a month! No one can tell me it didn't accelerate on it's own! The tires were burning and smoking when it finally stopped. I thought it would catch on fire and I could only get out the back door. It was the scariest thing that I ever experienced. I wasn't seriously injured so I can't sue...but I tried.

It wasn't caused by the floor mats or sticky pedal...although I had them both corrected. I could never get much money for it after this incident so I still drive it with trepidation. I sure hope it doesn't happen again!

[saras]

4. Lots did. That's why I think simple tests of the CARS would show the problem right away.

AFAIK, there's no question but that a whole bunch of cars did this. ONE tangled carpet, MAYBE, but NOT a bunch - carpet gets UNDER the pedal, stopping it from going down. It doesn't, except in horror movies, push the gas pedal to the floor all by itself.

[Occulus]

3. That is the exact scenario DU's so-called "auto experts" were saying COULDN'T POSSIBLY be the case

when all this went down in the first place.

I wonder if any of them will post on this thread to admit they were wrong?

[Mopar151]

5. You would be speaking of the "Toyota Trolls"

Who were all over me when I posted the possibility of this scenario. A couple of 'em ended up with the ol' granite pizza shortly therafter.

[Nambe]

6. Who makes the electronic processors and where?

I doubt if Toyota is in that business?

[Kolesar]

8. It's a software/programming problem, and that is Toyota's responsibility

There is also a design requirement for redundant transistors and other components in the output stages that is also Toyota's responsibility.

[madokie]

7. TOYota is a toy not a serious vehicle

When I say toy I mean they are built like toys are, little sheet metal tabs that they screw too to hold the inter fender wells in with, little braces where there shouldn't be a need for one if the auto was designed and built well enough to begin with and on and on. Yup you like a TOYota and want to drive one thats your business but if ever one of them sneaks up on me and tries to run over me and my f150 you can guess who the winner will be and for starters it won't be the TOYota. Neighbor has one he bought new and got an extended warranty on it through the dealer and if he follows a regiment of things to do to it while he owns it he might get some of that extended warranty refunded but in the mean time he's spent more than what the extended warranty cost complying with their wishes. He has to work on that car all the time, most recent was replacing the front struts. My two 14 year old fords have been worked on three time between the two since they were new. Once was the sparkplugs, once was the air conditioner dryer and once was the seal in the rear differential and thats it, nothing that make them possible wrecks looking for a place to happen. No you couldn't run fast enough to give me a TOYota. No way.
Another friend bought a new tundra and thought he could use it as a work truck, what a joke that was. We were concrete finishers at the time and it literally fell apart under the loads that it wasn't designed to carry. Why call it a truck if all you can do with it is haul an occasional 2x4 or refrigerator home from home depot or best buy. Guess what he has now, yup you got it a ford f250 that'll pull the tongue out of a trailer even when the f250 is loaded to the max.
Now you know where I come up with the spelling of TOYota.
Nothing personal in this reply just fact

[Fumesucker]

9. Top Gear tried to kill a Toyota pickup once..

[madokie]

10. Whats that all about anyway

are they trying to say that they are tough by any chance. I guess I can watch the video later when I have time for it to download to find out but in the mean time.

[Fumesucker]

11. They left it on the beach and the tide covered it completely..

After it had been submerged for several hours they managed to get it running again using no spare parts. In the end they put it on top of a ten or so story building that was about to be demolished and then let it fall with the collapse..

Toyota is the pickup of choice amongst insurgents around the world..

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-rebel-groups-love-the-toyota-hilux.html

As the war in Afghanistan escalated several years ago, counterinsurgency expert David Kilcullen, a member of the team that designed the Iraq surge for Gen. David Petraeus, began to notice a new tattoo on some insurgent Afghan fighters. It wasn’t a Taliban tattoo. It wasn’t even Afghan. It was a Canadian maple leaf.

When a perplexed Kilcullen began to investigate, he says, he discovered that the incongruous flags were linked to what he says is one of the most important, and unnoticed, weapons of guerrilla war in Afghanistan and across the world: the lightweight, virtually indestructible Toyota Hilux truck.

“In Afghanistan in particular,” he says, “[the trucks are] incredibly well respected.” So well respected, in fact, that some enterprising fraudsters thought them worthy of ripping off. The imitations, Kilcullen says, had flooded the market, leaving disappointed fighters in their wake. But then “a shipment of high-quality [real] Hiluxes arrived, courtesy of the Canadian government,” he explains. “They had little Canadian flags on the back. Because they were the real deal, and because of how the Hilux is seen, over time, strangely, the Canadian flag has become a symbol of high quality across the country. Hence the tattoos.”
It’s not just rebels in Afghanistan that love the Hilux. “The Toyota Hilux is everywhere,” says Andrew Exum, a former Army Ranger and now a fellow of the Center for a New American Security. “It’s the vehicular equivalent of the AK-47. It’s ubiquitous to insurgent warfare. And actually, recently, also counterinsurgent warfare. It kicks the hell out of the Humvee.” Anecdotally, a scan of pictures from the last four decades of guerrilla and insurgent warfare around the world—the first iteration of the Hilux appeared in the late ’60s—reveals the Toyota’s wide-ranging influence. Somali pirates bristling with guns hang out of them on the streets of Mogadishu. The New York Times has reported that the Hilux is the pirates’ “ride of choice.” A ragtag bunch of 20 or so Sudanese fighters raise their arms aloft in the back of a Hilux in 2004. Pakistani militants drive through a crowd, guns high, in 2000. It goes on. Nicaragua, Ethiopia, Rwanda, Liberia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq—U.S. Special Forces even drive Toyota Tacomas (the chunkier, U.S. version of the Hilux) on some of their deployments. (Click here for a gallery of Toyota trucks in conflict-torn regions.)

[madokie]

12. What ever

but to add I doubt seriously they could find a f150 in most of those places in enough numbers to make it number one or any other of the big three, ford, gm or chrysler

Let me just also add that up on grand lake a short drive from me they had an excursion boat that sank and after it was submerged in about 35 ft of water and 20 years had passed they finally re floated it and are now using it again. The thing is it has two detroit diesel engines in it and one of them was just put in new right before it sank in a storm and guess what, yup they are still using the one engine that was new when it sank the other one they couldn't get it going so it was replaced. So five hours for a toyota ain't shit even if it was in salt water in comparison. I think you can possibly googe grand lake and the Cherokee Queen, the lake and boat I'm talking about and read what I wrote. I know I found it once years ago on google. I don't do google any more so I don't know if I can find it today or not and really not interested in rereading what I already know.
peace

[parkia00]

14. Your friend overloaded his truck

"fell apart under the loads that it wasn't designed to carry" is that what happened? What would happen if you overloaded an f250 with loads it wasn't designed to carry? You seem to be mixing up what a light pick up truck vs. the giant full sized pick up the Americans make.

Yet sales tell another story worldwide. In the US Toyota trucks have very limited models, but world side they have a much wider range sold in every continent except in North America. Pick ups like the LN106, LN167 and FJ75 Landcruisers all have a major uses world wide. And if you try to convince these buyers whether they be from the Australian Outback or some African militia that mounts an anti-aircraft gun the the back that their pickups are toys, they would properly think you are nuts. same with the (non-American) 4X4 off-roader and their 30 year old short wheel base LN45 LandCruiser. In fact full sized American pick ups just will not sell in most parts of the world.

If you are interested in a full sized pick up then there are no alternatives than the Americans. But don't try to compare them to the smaller pickups used in other parts of the world. Not every needs a massive truck with a massive engine to prove a point. Although they are comfortable with impressive towing power and I would seriously consider an f150 with a diesel engine if they were available on the market here. Which they are not. The largest would be the new Ford Ranger which will be out in a few months... with a 2.2liter 4 cylinder turbo diesel engine or a 3 liter 5 cylinder 200hp turbo diesel. Which would make it the most powerful in the market. A very different market.

[madokie]

15. It was bought as a truck to be used in a trucks environment

You know where you use your truck in your business or in your work day. TOYotas are not up to the task of using them for what they'd like you to think they are capable of being used as.
Sorry but he had a Ranger and used it for years and then decided he'd buy something new for himself. Now he is back to a real work truck and I doubt he'll switch back to something else ever again.

Just for the record I have a short narrow '98 ford f150 with the 5.4 engine and I put a hundred thousand miles on it with way bigger loads and pulling a trailer with a bobcat loader on it many of those miles. Its the ford I put plugs in. I'd take off to either coast right now fully loaded and not worry with getting there or back without a problem.

Slightly off topic but a few months ago Popular Mechanic magazine drove a new mustang and camaro from their office on the east coast all the way to the Bonneville salt flats and ran them as fast as they would run. the chevy toped out at 180 mph while the mustang was still picking up speed at that speed. Did this numerous times then changed the oil and drove both of them back home without as much as a hot radiator. I think you can go to their website and type in mustang/camaro shootout at the salt flats and find the article.
Here I did it for you. http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/mustang-vs-camaro-bonneville?click=main_sr

Now read what they have to say at the end of the article and tell me these boys don't know what they're talking about and it isn't what you'll want to read either.
I rest my case

[parkia00]

16. It still does not matter.

If you subject any vehicle to use over it's design limitation, you are gonna get problems whether it be overloading or over towing being the most common for pick ups. Maybe your friend was used to the higher spec of his previous pickup and did not consider his new ride's lower restrictions. Most small pickups are not designed for over 1 ton of cargo weight.

As for the popular mechanics article, I'm not sure which portions of the end of the article that you indicated I did not want to read. The last or the second last paragraph? Either way pure power has it uses. Flat out acceleration is impressive, until you need to make a turn, which happens in real life. Honestly, in real life, how often are you going to be put in a position where the top speed of the car or the impressive 0-60 times are most important on the street; unless you have a serious case of lead foot. But that's just me. I'm a bit anal in my practicality. If I however have money to throw around, maybe I would become less practical.

[rickford66]

18. "What would happen if you overloaded an f250 with loads it wasn't designed to carry?"

About ten years ago I bought a 1988 Ford F250. My wife wanted some topsoil, so I drove down to the river where they dig up the stuff. They filled me up until the tires started to go flat. The guy loading said He'd only charge me $25 for the load because it was very wet. On the way out I stopped on the scales anyway to ask the young lady what I weighed. She gave me a funny look and said 9200 lbs. I only had to drive a few miles and took it very slow and the steering was REAL easy. It did have optional load capacity etc from the factory but I don't think a Toyota could match that.

[parkia00]

19. No A Toyota will not match that...

but you are comparing a light truck to a full sized pick up. They are a world apart for uses. Bad things will happen if you load 9200 lbs on a Toyota truck. But then also if you did that, you deserve to be called stupid. Toyota pick ups excels at certain things while no not so at other things.

[rickford66]

20. No I was refering to the quote in my title

What would happen if you overloaded a full sized pickup, like my F250? I overloaded it quite a bit and it didn't cause any damage or premature wear and I think that's what some of the comments mean. The Ford (anyway) is way overbuilt and the Toyota can only handle it's advertised rating. I had an 88 F150, an 88 F250 and now a 95 F150. I buy used and get good service out of them. Of course they cost a lot to maintain. I think every one needed a water pump, valve cover gaskets, battery, radiator etc when I got them.

[rickford66]

13. I had a similar problem

I had a 1988 Ford F150 pickup truck. Occasionally the engine would rev up to full speed. Since it was a 5-speed manual transmission, all I had to do was push in the clutch pedal to stop and use the brakes to control the speed while moving. The problem was the accelerator feedback pot which took a couple trips to the machanic to diagnose and fix. If it was an automatic I could see where it could have been dangerous. I've worked many years with simulation software. ALL software has bugs, no matter how much testing is done. I myself was always amazed if someone found a bug in my code. Engineers have a tendency to test software to see if it works correctly as designed, hardly ever trying to break the stuff or as some of my co-workers used to say, "Let's throw some rocks at it." Also, while working on some government work at a large well-known defense contractor, I saw unit tests (tests of individual s/w modules) faked. Either to save time or hide incompetence I guess. Others I talked to saw the same thing.

[Kurmudgeon]

21. One picture says it all. No generalization.

[uppityperson]

23. I think he is saying one. Difficult to tell.

[boppers]

24. That's a 2009 Lexus ES 350.

In other words, not what the memos are even referencing.