Officer says he shot at van’s tires, not kids

[alp227]

Source: Albuquerque Journal

SANTA FE – State Police are investigating an Oct. 28 traffic stop gone wrong south of Taos in which an officer fired at a van as it sped away with five children inside.

A video of the dashboard camera, which appeared on CNN, ABC and other national media over the weekend, shows one officer trying to bash in a window as the children scream and then another officer firing when the driver takes off.

New Mexico State Police Chief Pete Kassetas issued a statement Monday calling the incident “concerning” and said a thorough investigation was underway.

“I have, of course, reviewed the video and do have concerns relating to the conduct of the officer who discharged his firearm,” Kassetas said. “As the Chief of the New Mexico State Police, I take all officer-involved shooting investigations seriously and, once this investigation is complete, I will take appropriate disciplinary action if warranted.”

Read more: http://www.abqjournal.com/303891/news/officer-says-he-shot-at-vans-tires-not-kids.html

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story includes video:

[penultimate]

1. I still don't see how that even matters.

He should still be fired or even brought up on charges for his reckless behavior.

[DURHAM D]

5. His use of deadly force was unconstitutional.

Agree that he should be fired.

ETA: video from The Last Word

[sybylla]

28. Yeah, I just added NM to my list of effed- up states never to visit

until they clean up their act. It wasn't the bad behavior that put them on the list. Bad eggs arrive in the average carton occasionally. It's the failure to discipline the bad behavior that puts them on the list.

I've seen cop-rage. Even had it glower at me through my driver-side window once while I had two young children in car seats in the back, stopped in the middle of nowhere. Like this it was over a mere claim of speeding. I spend a lot of time telling my kids that the police are good guys who are on their side if they are in trouble and this cop comes up to the window and starts acting like an ass from the minute it's cracked. I was the one who had to calm the situation down. That should be a cop's job, not mine.

Unlike this woman's circumstances, we drove away without anything more than a warning for speeding. I was shook up and pissed off and felt incredibly lucky it didn't escalate. It wouldn't have taken much from me to have found myself in a similar position to this woman and her poor young family.

These are the cops who give all cops a bad name. They'd all have a better time of it with the public if they let the bad eggs get their just desserts.

[warrant46]

47. This guy took lessons from Annie Oakley

A crack shot to be sure !!

[Warpy]

51. NM is a far cry from Texas

What you saw in this video were the cherrypicked highlights. The whole incident took about 41 minutes. The police were definitely provoked.

However, firing a gun was simply not warranted. This was a traffic stop that turned into a simple assault on a cop. The cop who fired those shots will very likely be disciplined.

My contacts with the local force have been positive ones and I've had a lot of contact as I worked as an RN here. Most of them are OK and trying to do a tough job in a town awash in alcohol and with a volatile cultural mix.

Still, the gun happy ones have got to go. So do the ones in Deming who have brutalized two men over reactions from an uncertified drug sniffing dog.

The woman in this case was acting like a fool. She was in a tourist mecca and they don't to roadside cavity searches in tourist meccas. That sort of publicity hurts business.

[daleanime]

2. If?

[valerief]

3. He's a POS. He had her on video and had her plates. They could have gotten her LATER.

You know, without the kids. Without a high-speed chase that endangered other motorists. You know, without fuckin' gunshots. You know, SAFELY.

If she had any drugs in the car (like some cop-defenders are suggesting), letting her go with them would be MUCH MUCH safer than what they did.

[riversedge]

7. that car with the load on top would have been to follow. The

police shooting at the car--tires or whatever was dangerous. He could have exploded the gas tank. She did wrong but the cops actions were unprofessional to say the least.

[valerief]

9. The cops' actions were criminal.nt

[hollysmom]

27. that is what I was thinking. no big rush n/t

[freshwest]

44. +1

[Autumn]

4. Well that's nice. Cause cars having blow outs have never caused a roll over before.

And the cop tying to bash in the window was just giving the kids fresh air one can assume?

[Kelvin Mace]

6. And of course bullets never ricochet

and people never lose control of vehicles whose tires are shot out.

Maybe it is just me, but there is ZERO chance that I would ever discharge a firearm in the direction of children in this kind of situation.

[Ilsa]

8. CYA bullshit excuse to try

and save his job. No reason to shoot at her tires.

Fugging trigger-happy cop.

[KansDem]

12. "Officer says he shot at van’s tires"

I'd be more inclined to believe him if the family name is "Van Styres"

[Owl]

13. "Fugging trigger-happy cop"... exactly!

An Annie Oakley wanna-be with a hand-gun. Ugh.

Fire that POS.

[Trillo]

10. What about ricochets?

A ricochet (/ˈrɪkəʃeɪ/ rik-ə-shay) is a rebound, bounce or skip off a surface, particularly in the case of a projectile. The possibility of ricochet is one of the reasons for the common firearms safety rule "Never shoot at a flat, hard surface."[citation needed] Ricochets are sometimes called car[r]oms.

[exboyfil]

25. Fragments from the tire rim are what killed the escort

in Texas when she left without performing the acts that the shooter thought he had paid for (contract dispute ending in gunfire). He got away with it because he claimed he was shooting at the tires.

Contrasting case - the cop in Ames, Iowa who shot out the pick up truck driver that assaulted police officers by ramming them with his truck multiple times. There are folks on this board that wanted the police to shoot the tires out instead of firing into the truck (they had already tried to disable the truck by ramming).

When you shoot you expect to kill what you shoot. Lousy excuse and lousy response to the situation. The cop should be brought up on endangerment charges (definitely lose his job). On the flip side the woman and her son need to be prosecuted as well.

[KansDem]

11. What about smashing the glass with a nightstick?

At 1'23"...

Kids are on the other side. He could have seriously injure them.

It looks like he acted without thinking. Very dangerous mix for cops with lethal weapons...

[Autumn]

14. Hey, those kids needed fresh air!!!

makes as much sense as, Hey I was only shooting at the tires!!

[Vox Moi]

15. These cops seems to have a problem distinguishing between

Law enforcement and hydrophobia.
As the vehicle drives off, under fire, a cop smashes his nightstick against the pavement in rage and frustration.
Fucking punks … they always get away.
Away from that particular cop … no question they would get arrested quite soon anyway.
The cop was angry that they got away from HIM.

[Ranchemp.]

16. Pure CYA, the video clearly shows him shooting at the back of the van,

not at the tires, and suppose he did hit a tire? Has this idiot never heard of a blowout causing a rollover?
This cop should be terminated and charged with reckless endangerment.

[TorchTheWitch]

53. where's the bullet holes or broken windows?

The video clearly shows him shooting at some portion of the vehicle but without any evidence like any bullet holes in the vehicle or broken windows being shot out it sure as hell doesn't clearly show that's where he shot - it clearly shows that's where he DIDN'T shoot. Bullets make bullet holes. That's what makes shooting a gun so dangerous. It's plenty bad enough that he shot at the tires which any reasonable person would have assumed that is what he was shooting at. They've certainly have had plenty of time to look at the car and find where there were bullet holes, and had there been any above the tires into the car it would have been long since known thereby telling his superiors that he shot at the tires rather stupid. I don't know why anyone was assuming that he shot at the car when there wasn't any bullet hole evidence that he did and that in this situation it would have been logical to assume he was shooting at the tires in order to stop the woman from driving off - not that shooting at the tires was appropriate. There's just no reason to make either assumptions or claim evidence that clearly isn't THERE from the video that he was shooting at the car thereby it being sheer luck that he didn't shoot anyone in it.

I don't know what police protocol is in such an incident, but I would imagine that shooting at the tires wouldn't be appropriate seeing as it doesn't do anything that keeps the car from being able to be driven - plenty of people have driven on flat tires. And despite an officer aiming at tires right in front of him it's entirely possible that he might miss thereby creating the dangerous situation of a stray bullet flying where ever. Any time I've ever seen or heard of a person trying to evade police during a traffic stop the police don't shoot anything but jump back in their patrol car and give chase, though I'm not crazy about that option either since a high speed chase after someone who is not immediately dangerous to anyone seems to create a traffic hazard for other people on the road.

[duhneece]

17. Wrong, but indicative of poor pay, poor training

The destruction of the unions, the changing of the system to allow so few to amass so much wealth so that our cities, states, counties are unable to train our officers, unable to pay them a decent wage means there is something horribly wrong with the system.
Under Eisenhower, when the top 1% were taxed at 90% and being paid 20-25 times what the average worker was making, unlike now where the top CEO's make 300, 400, 500% of what the average worker makes means we'll see more of this kind of horrible action...and many times, there WILL be death and destruction.
Of course what he did was monstrous, but it just motivates me to get out there and organize, work for change, doing what one 62 yr old woman who lives out in boonies of a small in population, but huge in size, county can do. How about you?

[HooptieWagon]

18. He shouldn't have shot in the direction of the van at all.

Did he not have the plate number? Wouldn't it have been easy to get backup help and stop the van up the road?

[Myrina]

19. Oh that makes it better --- so it could have flipped over & killed the kids ...

.... rather than them being killed by direct gunfire.


Makes all the sense in the world now.

[wickerwoman]

20. Becaues shooting out the tires of a van speeding away

in no way endangers the kids inside...

[hueymahl]

21. Total Thug Cop - Should be fired

He had an attitude from the get go. HE caused everything that came afterward.

[L0oniX]

22. Track license plate number to address ...show up there. Too easy for them.

[DallasNE]

23. Where Did The Bullets Strike

That should clear up the issue of what he was shooting at. Also, the probability of hitting the gas tank would have been much higher than hitting a tire, especially since the vehicle would have shielded at least 90% of the tire from that angle. And what is police procedure when it comes to firing shots to disable fleeing vehicles. Lastly, why did the cop argue with the driver at the first stop. It seems that it should have been a matter of fact presentation. Are these the normal roadside manners for stopping a vehicle for a minor traffic violation.

[Ilsa]

24. yeah the penalty for going 45 in a 40

is death by police firearm. Same for forgetting to use your turn signal.

[Lurks Often]

40. According to NM law, a driver has to decide whether or not

to pay the ticket (at a later date) or go to court AT the time of the traffic stop. That apparently upset the driver and she left the scene when the police officer went back to his car, which led to everything else.

The driver escalated a ticket, reportedly $126, into felony charges on her and her son. Absent some information not known, there was no reason for her to leave the scene of the first traffic stop.

[DallasNE]

41. Your Post Has Nothing To Do With My Post

I think the felony charge against the 14 year old is laughable. All he did was to try and pull the officer off of his mom, which he did, and then hustled back into the car and locked the door. No punches were attempted and there was no shoving. He just pulled on his arms to free his mother. That's not to say a lesser charge that is a misdemeanor shouldn't be charged. But jail time and a criminal record for what he did? No way. Now her mother should face fairly serious charges. Also, they've put the 4 younger kids in foster care -- where is the dad? New Mexico has some extreme laws. $126 is about half of what going 16 over the limit lands you where I live. Indeed, if she was driving with cruise control on she would know exactly how fast she was going and it may be at odds with what she was being charged with and that might be why she was thinking she might fight the ticket. We haven't heard her side yet.

And what about my questions in my earlier post.

[Lurks Often]

42. I provided an answer to why they were arguing.

Assault on a police officer is a felony charge in most states. Whether or not the State of New Mexico chooses to press those charges will be up to the prosecutor assigned to the case. I viewed the boy's actions as assault, you don't and we probably aren't going to agree.

The father was/is in Georgia, so temporary foster care seems reasonable, apparently the children were released to a relative or friend in the area.

$126 for 16 miles over the limit seems cheap: http://www.life123.com/cars-vehicles/driving-operating/traffic-rules/average-cost-of-speeding-ticket.shtml All she had to do was decide to either pay it and submit the payment at a later date or fight it in court and come back or stay in NM. Instead she made a series of remarkably poor choices that will probably result in jail time and a felony record.

[KamaAina]

45. Absent some information not known,

there was STILL no reason for the cop to shoot at a van with kids inside.

[Lurks Often]

48. Please feel free to find the post where I said that n/t

[KamaAina]

49. You may not have said it out loud

but you were making excuses for the cop who did it.

[Lurks Often]

50. Trying reading my posts before making crap up and accusing me of things.

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4047131

[beemer27]

26. The cops messed up several ways here.

Officer DeTavis should be sent back to police academy to learn how to subdue a subject. The woman is not real big, nor is she real aggressive. He should have been able to control her easily when she exited the vehicle. Had he done so, the rest of this would not have occurred. After his failure to control the situation everyone makes serious mistakes. The woman should have stayed, accepted the ticket, and beat it in court. The cops got totally out of control. Perhaps Montoya did aim at the tires( in cases like this I prefer to give the officers the benefit of the doubt-they ARE under a lot of pressure, and should be cut a little bit of slack), but even had he been accurate, it would have made little difference. The 14-year old is just that- a kid. He should get a stern lecture about the proper time and place to use force, and let go. The mother should get charged with eluding and possession of paraphernalia, fined and warned about being that stupid again. Both cops have a lot to answer for, and should have this entered into their permanent files, and receive training in the areas they got wrong with this one. They should also thank their Creator that no one got hit.
This was a first class cluster from the word go, and no one will look good after it is all done.

[Capt13]

39. I wonder whose pocket

That "paraphernalia" fell out of. Whee do these pricks even think they have the right to ask you to step out of the vehicle without REASONABLE suspicion of involvement in a criminal act?

[warrprayer]

29. stay out of NM n/t

[Ash_F]

30. Well the tire did go flat after the 3rd shot in the video

But is it or should it be legal to try to stop a vehicle by shooting out its tires?

I do think in cases of non-violent crime, police should not chase, or at least not use deadly force. But it seems like a lot of Americans disagree.

[lame54]

34. false...

can't have a 100 mph chase with a flat tire

Moments later, the van began pulling away and Montoya fired at the van.

A chase ensued at speeds reaching close to 100 mph through the small town of Talpa and into Taos.

[Ash_F]

36. You can clearly see it the video.

You can see the back left tire sink after the third shot. I am not sure how you can miss it?

[carla]

37. No Ash,

it DID NOT! The tires are visibly inflated when the van arrives at it's final destination. I am calling BS on your claim. The cops need to be fired and punished too.

[Ash_F]

38. So in addition to my response to the other poster...

You can also see that the entire bumper is off-kilter, because the right tire is higher. Also the vehicle fish-tailed at that same moment the tire sunk, which happens in blow-outs.

I am sure the damage to the vehicle will be a part of the investigation. I do not believe the officer should have shot, so I suspect we agree on that point.

But it is still a practice for police to shoot out tires in some places. If that is true in NM, then he may not be punished.

[jmowreader]

54. Scroll ahead to 2:01. You can see both tires on the left side, and they're the same

[blueknight]

31. THE COP IS

FULL OF SHIT! My son and i target shoot with our hand guns often, and i guarantee i'm a better shot then this cop. this isnt like in the movies, it would be virtually impossible for him to hit the tires from behind the vehicle unless he got totally lucky.

[LiberalFighter]

32. There really needs to be a national standards for police to follow.

And specific penalties for officers or the jurisdiction imposed for failure.

[hatrack]

33. And the Little Lead Slugs listened to his magic pleas not to ricochet . .

. . . and hit any innocent persons, and his pleading made it so!

[CreekDog]

35. I don't think it's an acceptable answer, but that was my initial impression too

that he shot downwards at the tires.

it doesn't make him a peacemaker but it is considerably different than shooting at the passenger compartment.

unacceptable still, in my view, but 5% less so in my view also.

[Paladin]

43. Stupid and unwarranted shooting by that officer.

It's a miracle that one or more of those kids wasn't killed or wounded.

[novano]

46. makes as much sense as, Hey I was only shooting at the tires!!

[ltheghost]

52. Any way you cut it

He needs to be fired. He could have missed and hit oncoming traffic. A bullet could have ricocheted and hit one of the kids in the car or an officer. Shooting the tires out of a minivan is just beyond stupid. It's not like she would have out ran them in a minivan.....

[RandiFan1290]

55. Cops are trained to shoot to kill

Not shoot arms, legs, or tires. That is Hollywood fantasy.

[sendero]

56. EXACTLY..

... there is no concept in law enforcement of doing anything else. If you discharge your weapon, you are trying to kill someone. Not a leg shot, not a hand shot, a head or torso shot that will KILL.

Until a situation escalates to the point where killing is the only option, you DO NOT DISCHARGE YOUR FIREARM.

These rules apply pretty well to civilian self-defense also.