Bolivia recalls ambassadors from Spain, Italy, France
Source: Business Standard
The Bolivian government has "temporarily" recalled its ambassadors to Spain, France and Italy to protest those countries' refusal earlier this month to allow Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane to enter their airspace, a top official said.
"Recalling the ambassadors is a decision that was taken within the framework of the summit of the Southern Common Market (Mercosur), the bloc that decided to call all its ambassadors to those nations, to protest what happened to President Morales," Bolivian Communications Minister Amanda Davila told reporters Friday ...
Read more: http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/bolivia-recalls-ambassadors-from-spain-italy-france-113072000323_1.html
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)"We are not going to talk to anybody anymore!!" ~ Morales.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Cha
(297,259 posts)Spain, France, and Italy".
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I think they have a legitimate beef, don't you?
Imagine if Argentina and Uruguay suddenly withdrew permission for David Cameron's plant to overfly, forcing it to land in Bolivia where authorities demanded to search it. Would you accuse the UK of "stomping their feet turning red and taking their marbles home"?
MADem
(135,425 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts).. this is clear because it's temporary. Games that increase Morales popularity at home and within South America but sadly not based on solid enough evidence.
East Coast Pirate
(775 posts)- Ugly American
delrem
(9,688 posts)That is: the whole continent of SA.
I wonder what?
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)but Morales is just blowing smoke-rings from his behind in this particular case
delrem
(9,688 posts)You don't seem to understand that US/SA encompass more than "suspicions".
You don't seem to understand what all the new confederacies in SA are about.
You're just whistling, whistling in the wind...
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)Reagan's wars in Central America, and I've worked at various times to educate people about other interventions in the Americas, including the notorious connections of the Nixon administration to some of the human rights atrocities in Chile, Uruguay, or Brazil. If you search DU2, you'll find posts by me about Bush administration efforts to destabilize Bolivia, to overthrow the government of Venezuela, or to claim that the Argentinian government was taking illegal campaign money, as well as discussion of the significance of sending Negroponte to Iraq, given his dreadful earlier record as ambassador top Honduras. That only scratches the surface of Yankee intervention in the Americas, and we can all stipulate that the picture is not always pretty
But the topic of this thread is rather specific: it concerns the diplomatic crises Morales has been busily engineering in July
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)...from the US and ex-colonial EU powers and the idea that those lesser nations merely exist to serve their betters. This last fiasco, though brief, only illustrates that the entitled superiority and demand for subservience is still there.
You may consider it minimal but I think that just misses the point. South Americans deserve human dignity.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)with the accidental military superiority of the colonizers and their various ideological descendents, produced that paradox which Galeano so accurately described: human poverty as a consequence of the wealth of the land. The resulting mythology of cultural or racial superiority is best viewed, I think, not as the motive for the rapacious exploitation, but as a mystification of the exploitation -- that is, as a convenient disguise -- parallel to the mythology of the criminality of black men, which served as a mystification of the exploitation underlying rented convict labor in chain-gangs in Southern fields and factories during most of the Jim Crow era. Sometimes the veil was drawn aside, quietly, in private memos, such as Kennan's 1948 PPS23, discussing Asia:
In short: the desire to exploit always motivated the theories of innate superiority, rather than the other way around
But, again, having stipulated that, I will remark that the thread here does not concern the long history of human exploitation by other humans, or the various disguises sometimes used to distract people from the actual meanings of some of their histories, it concerns the entirely artificial diplomatic crises currently manufactured by Morales
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)I don't actually agree with withdrawing ambassadors either, I think the breakdown of communication is a mistake. But I also don't think the response should have been to quietly take it, which is what I suppose the governments involved feel entitled to expect from Bolivia.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)It is now clear what happened. William Eacho, a US ambassador who has no business being an ambassador as former CEO of a real estate mega-giant, made false claims to the Austrian Foreign Department that he was 'certain' Snowden was on board. Multiple countries engaged in the shenanigans. This has now been confirmed by some of the countries involved, but not the US(guess we'll have to wait for the leaks haha) and is no longer a point of argument.
So the initial cries of "hurf blurf conspiracy nuts" look especially dumb now. I guess the only question is who gave Eacho that false info, or did he just make it up out of thin air and act on his own? This is somewhat tangential to my main point though.
So again, how do you think Morales should have responded? How do you think Obama should respond to Air Force One being grounded and searched for absolutely no good reason? Do you think their responses should be different? If so, why? This is an important question because it relates to the human dignity of South Americans so do not try to minimize it as you have been.
I think their responses should be the same, though I can not comment on exactly how far they should go, because I do not believe that some people are superior to others.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)likely to be a garbled account of what actually happened: on 1 July, Eacho was summoned by Austria, which demanded an explanation from him of some of Snowden's allegations, so it is very believable that Eacho contacted Austria on 2 July with some manner of a response (probably merely a report back to Vienna that the US Department of State was studying Austria's request), and it wouldn't be particularly surprising if that conversation mentioned Snowden, or was described later by someone as being (say) about "the Snowden affair"
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)Agence France-Presse
7:27 am | Tuesday, July 2nd, 2013
VIENNA Austria summoned the US ambassador on Monday to explain reports that Washington had bugged European offices and embassies amid a growing diplomatic row. In a meeting with the ambassador, William Eacho, Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger expressed Austrias worries over the spiralling espionage scandal that has threatened to damage transatlantic ties and demanded a rapid clarification. Eacho promised to transmit Viennas concerns to the relevant authorities, according to local news agency APA ...
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/436737/austria-summons-us-ambassador-over-spy-scandal
karynnj
(59,503 posts)Has the link changed since you posted it?
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)the main focus of the article is that Austria summoned the US ambassador. Austria and Germany being different nations, it is entirely possible for one to invite its US ambassador to discuss an EU issue, while the other summons its US ambassador to discuss the same issue
The matter in question here is a single unconfirmed press report that the US ambassador called the Austrian foreign office to discuss Snowden shortly after the Bolivian plane landed in Vienna -- a report which plays a role in the popular theory that there was some coordinated action to force the Bolivian plane down in Vienna so that it could be searched to determine whether Snowden was aboard
The point of this CONFIRMED story -- about the US ambassador being summoned by the Austrians on Monday 1 July in order to demand an explanation regarding Snowden's allegations that the US spied on the EU -- is that the US ambassador would, under those circumstances, be expected to contact the Austrian foreign office with some manner of response as soon as Washington had studied the Austrian questions and provided the US ambassador with instructions. So (in particular) a call from the US ambassador sometime on Tuesday 2 July, with reference to something like "the Snowden affair," would have been entirely predictable, without any need to speculate that the intent of the call was to encourage the Austrians to search planes for Snowden as a hide-away
karynnj
(59,503 posts)questions on Snowden's revelations has anything to do with the plane incident. I agree with your last paragraph.
What this suggests is CT people connecting dots that do not necessarily connect.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Also I'm not sure what you were trying to disprove by linking that article. It doesn't even address what we are talking about. Here, let me help you.
Eacho claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard. He also made reference to a diplomatic note requesting Snowdens extradition.
Spain says it and other European countries were told that the NSAwhistleblower Edward Snowden was on board the Bolivian presidential plane that was diverted to Austria this week, causing a diplomatic row.
The foreign minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, said on Spanish National Television on Friday that they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ambassador-to-austria-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane-report/5342027
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)Bolivian Defense Minister Saavedra, who was on the plane:
... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that time our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... The pilot himself had apparently heard a rumor that Mr Snowden was on-board ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... They asked for our passports; we had no problem displaying them; ... they reviewed them quickly and returned ... After landing, the crew received notification of Portugal and Italy that they had canceled the overflight and landing permits in their territories ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ... The ambassador returned at 9:30 <AM>; President Morales told him it was all sorted out and thanked him ...
Rubén Saavedra Soto: Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201
karynnj
(59,503 posts)It is hard to tell as it is confusing and the timing is not clear. They say the closures were AFTER the landing. It is also not clear whose ambassador is referred to - but I would interpret it as Bolivian as he returned the next morning and was thanked by Morales.
I don't read Spanish but taking the translate page resulted in a different translation than in your post. It also was very hard to understand. The commanding officer speaking of the rumor is strange.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)arrived at the Vienna airport in order to search Morales plane. The account of the Bolivian defense minister, who was onboard, is that the Spanish ambassador never mentioned Snowden, said that he was quite tired, and wondered if Morales might chat with him over a cup of coffee; Morales exploded at him and accused the Spanish ambassador of calling him a liar, adding that Snowden was not aboard the plane; this (according to the Bolivian defense minister) startled the ambassador, who didn't know what to say and who finally left, promising to return first thing in the morning
There are interpretations of this which require no conspiracies to search the plane. The Bolivian defense minister says that having been denied the right to land, Morales got on the phone with his government. It's entirely reasonable to suspect that Morales made claims regarding several countries, similar to the claims he has made ever since, and that Bolivia officials contacted the other countries, including Spain, which promptly instructed its ambassador in Vienna to get to the airport and try to figure out what Morales was upset about. The Spanish ambassador can't have gotten to the airport before about midnight, and if he was clueless about what Morales thought, saying he was tired, and asking for a chance to sit with Morales over coffee, may have been a perfectly natural diplomatic move
muriel_volestrangler
(101,320 posts)and they had the choice of returning to Moscow, trying to obtain sudden flight permission from several countries to divert around French airspace, which seemed unlikely to be achievable, or to land in the country they were over - Austria. Only then did they tell Vienna they had a fuel gauge they were unsure about, so that Vienna couldn't deny them landing rights.
It's clear the problem was that France denied them permission to fly over (not, as you claim elsewhere, permission to land). And that's the problem - France withdrew flight permission, because someone (cough, USA) told them Snowden was on board.
Regresar a Moscú. La otra, aunque más remota, era obviar el espacio aéreo francés y llegar a nuestro destino en Islas Canarias, pero no teníamos autorizaciones de Estados colindantes para hacer eso. Vimos que lo más pertinente era llegar al aeropuerto más cercano. Estábamos en espacio aéreo austriaco, así que la elección fue rápida.
What were the options in the situation?
Return to Moscow. The other, even more remote, was avoid French airspace and reach our destination in the Canary Islands, but we did not have authorization to do that from neighboring states. We saw it was more important to get to the nearest airport. We were in Austrian airspace, so the choice was fast.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)The original flight plan involved refueling in Lisbon and later in Guyana. Before the flight left, Portugal said Lisbon had technical problems. The flight plan was modified to refuel in the Canary Islands. But once in flight, the plane requested permission to land to refuel in France. The fact that this request did not accord with the filed flight plan appears to have confused French air traffic control, who seem not to have been sure originally whether there was one Bolivian plane or two, denied landing permission, and delayed granting overflight permission, until the situation was clarified. The Bolivians finally obtained an emergency landing in Vienna, by reporting low fuel indications. The underlying problem seems to be that they didn't have enough fuel to reach the Canary Islands
... Morales originally planned to fly home from a Moscow summit via Western Europe, stopping in Portugal and Guyana to refuel ...
Plane lands in a storm
By Michael Weissenstein and Angela Charlton
Associated Press
Posted: July 05, 2013
http://articles.philly.com/2013-07-05/news/40373387_1_bolivian-president-evo-morales-airspace
... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ...
Rubén Saavedra Soto: Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201
... Portugal said it had granted permission for the plane to fly through its air space but declined Bolivia's request for a refueling stop in Lisbon due to unspecified technical reasons ...
Bolivia plane incident infuriates Latin America
Associated Press
MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN and ANGELA CHARLTON
July 4, 2013
http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-plane-incident-infuriates-latin-america-211051576.html
... After taking off from Moscow, Mr. Moraless plane sought permission to land in France to refuel, according to Carlos Romero, the minister of government in La Paz, Bolivia. But France refused and denied the plane permission to enter French airspace ...
Barring of Bolivian Plane Infuriates Latin America as Snowden Case Widens
By WILLIAM NEUMAN and ALISON SMALE
Published: July 3, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/snowden.html?pagewanted=all
... French President Francois Hollande said "there was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France" ...
Bolivia Plane Incident Infuriates Latin America
07/03/2013 4:26 PM KSTP.com
By: Leslie Dyste
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3087837.shtml?cat=1
... French President Francois Hollande told reporters in Berlin on Wednesday that .. permission was granted as soon as he knew it was Morales' plane.France Foreign Ministry on Wednesday also issued a statement ... "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over (French) territory," said ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot ...
France apologises to Bolivia over jet row
Moraless plane not allowed to country because of 'conflicting information' about passengers, says French President.
Last Modified: 04 Jul 2013 10:46
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/07/2013747914179924.html
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)about how many planes were involved: France denied the refueling request and delayed overflight permission until it was clarified that this was Morales plane, at which point overflight permission was granted
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)in his approved flight plan (Las Palmas in the Canary Islands) or should have delayed leaving Moscow until he had an approved flight plan with an approved continental refueling point
Instead, his plane left Moscow with the apparent idea that enroute he could just land to refuel anywhere that seemed to him convenient
karynnj
(59,503 posts)the President.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I think you just engaged in blaming the victim.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)your opinion is solidly based on facts, not on loose deductions from half-quotes or urban legends propagated by lazy reporters
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)With your snooty attitude towards this poster and towards South Americans.
Cha
(297,259 posts)marbles home.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)...maybe you should quit embarrassing yourself.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)I don't see anything wrong in calling them home to give instructions, since you CAN'T TRUST SOCIAL MEDIA ANYMORE, not even old-fashioned land lines. Even if it's just to come home and do a little dance around the hat, it's their business, isn't it?
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
railsback
(1,881 posts)LoL, Evo. That'll show 'em!
The world shrugs..
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Space and I doubt Bolivia will be the control factor. Get over yourself, who died and left Evo in charge of these countries. Yep, Evo will still need permission to fly over their air space.
dusty trails
(174 posts)Except when Obama tells them to shut it down ?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)I am sure they make their decisions themselves and not like the patsy Snowden has allowed himself to be talked into.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It's amazing how L'Affaire Snowden makes people twist and turn.
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)about their own sovereignty than (say) Bolivia?
treestar
(82,383 posts)who is suffering here, certainly not those countries. And did Bolivia even close its airspace to those countries - does Air France even fly there?
Just another way to get attention for Evo.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)These folks are so blinded by the Snowden mania they want to jab at Bolivia. Why, exactly? For Bolivia having the nerve to protest the unprecedented action against the airplane of their president?
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)They celebrate their ignorance and proudly wave the bigot flag. It's truly disgusting.
mitchtv
(17,718 posts)he got confused himself as the colonial governor for a moment
struggle4progress
(118,288 posts)advantage in Bolivia to portray Spain as having a colonial mentality towards Bolivia, but there's no reason to think such portrayals reflect current views in Spain
mitchtv
(17,718 posts)betrayed such attitude in Vienna
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)He is fast becoming irrelevant as a democrat.