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struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 01:57 AM Jul 2013

Bolivia recalls ambassadors from Spain, Italy, France

Source: Business Standard

The Bolivian government has "temporarily" recalled its ambassadors to Spain, France and Italy to protest those countries' refusal earlier this month to allow Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane to enter their airspace, a top official said.

"Recalling the ambassadors is a decision that was taken within the framework of the summit of the Southern Common Market (Mercosur), the bloc that decided to call all its ambassadors to those nations, to protest what happened to President Morales," Bolivian Communications Minister Amanda Davila told reporters Friday ...

Read more: http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/bolivia-recalls-ambassadors-from-spain-italy-france-113072000323_1.html

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bolivia recalls ambassadors from Spain, Italy, France (Original Post) struggle4progress Jul 2013 OP
Hahaha!!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #1
Soon we will have no-one to talk to, Keep it up USA, USA bahrbearian Jul 2013 #3
Yeah, it's Bolivia who's stomping their feet turning red and taking their marbles home from Cha Jul 2013 #8
Yeah, it's Bolivia which had its president's plane fucked with. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #30
Why, because Bolivia is mad at Europe? That makes no sense... nt MADem Jul 2013 #51
What we used to call a "crab out" in the neighborhood where I grew up flamingdem Jul 2013 #4
"We're tough guys." East Coast Pirate Jul 2013 #23
hmmm, something pissed off the Murcosur bloc delrem Jul 2013 #2
Quite a number of Latin American countries have good historical reason to be suspicious of the US struggle4progress Jul 2013 #5
no. you're too busy whistling past the graveyard. delrem Jul 2013 #6
Personal attacks are really no substitute for understanding the world. I actively opposed struggle4progress Jul 2013 #9
Everything you listed is the result of a sense superiority towards SA Ash_F Jul 2013 #10
Again, I think we can simply stipulate the human avarice, which combined struggle4progress Jul 2013 #13
Question: How do you think he should have responded? Ash_F Jul 2013 #14
The theory of some conspiracy against Morales seems unsupported by the facts struggle4progress Jul 2013 #15
That does not answer the question. Ash_F Jul 2013 #18
To my knowledge, there is only one press account asserting such a claim from Eacho, and it is struggle4progress Jul 2013 #20
Both false and still dodging the question. /nt Ash_F Jul 2013 #21
Austria summons US ambassador over spy scandal (AFP 2 July) struggle4progress Jul 2013 #22
This says nothing of the plane and says he was not "summoned" karynnj Jul 2013 #36
It says the US ambassador in neighboring Germany was "invited" not "summoned" -- but struggle4progress Jul 2013 #41
I still do not get why the US ambassador answering karynnj Jul 2013 #48
You are still dodging. Ash_F Jul 2013 #50
Overflight permissions, except possibly for France, existed until the plane landed, according to struggle4progress Jul 2013 #24
From this, it seems the Bolivian President's misunderstood comment was the start of it karynnj Jul 2013 #37
The ambassador is the Spanish ambassador who, according to the plane-search theories, arrived struggle4progress Jul 2013 #43
And you leave out him saying they had to avoid French airspace muriel_volestrangler Jul 2013 #42
Let's look at the situation with France in detail struggle4progress Jul 2013 #45
Bolivia enroute unexpectedly requested a refueling stop in France, which produced confusion struggle4progress Jul 2013 #26
So Morales should either have taken enough fuel in Moscow to reach the refueling point designated struggle4progress Jul 2013 #29
Very weird considering that it could - at minimum - inconvenience karynnj Jul 2013 #38
Morales didn't engineer this diplomatic crisis; Italy, Spain, and France did, at our behest. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #31
You're entitled to your opinion, but you'll learn more if you make a concerted effort to ensure that struggle4progress Jul 2013 #39
The one who needs some serious learning is you. Ash_F Jul 2013 #52
Don't turn too beet red, Bolivia.. as you're taking all your Cha Jul 2013 #7
That is really childish. If you can't contribute above kindergarten level... Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #32
You go, Evo! ReRe Jul 2013 #11
k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth Jul 2013 #12
'Temporarily' railsback Jul 2013 #16
Yada Yada Yada, bet Spain, Italy and France are crying. Guess what, they still control their air Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #17
Spain, Italy and France are crying. Guess what, they still control their air dusty trails Jul 2013 #25
it seems Spain, France and Italy just may not be allowing Bolivia to tell them what to do, Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #27
They took extraordinary action against the head of state of a sovereign nation. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #33
What would be the reason for thinking that France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain are less zealous struggle4progress Jul 2013 #40
good point treestar Jul 2013 #28
Wow it looks like the Yahoo comments section in here. /nt Ash_F Jul 2013 #19
It is really quite sad and pathetic. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #34
Seriously. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2013 #35
It's disgusting. bitchkitty Jul 2013 #44
you'll have to excuse the Spanish ambassador, mitchtv Jul 2013 #46
It's been nearly 200 years since Spain lost Bolivia as a colony: there may still be some populist struggle4progress Jul 2013 #47
the ambassador himself mitchtv Jul 2013 #49
Thank Obama for this. Arctic Dave Jul 2013 #53

Cha

(297,259 posts)
8. Yeah, it's Bolivia who's stomping their feet turning red and taking their marbles home from
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 03:44 AM
Jul 2013

Spain, France, and Italy".

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
30. Yeah, it's Bolivia which had its president's plane fucked with.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:49 PM
Jul 2013

I think they have a legitimate beef, don't you?

Imagine if Argentina and Uruguay suddenly withdrew permission for David Cameron's plant to overfly, forcing it to land in Bolivia where authorities demanded to search it. Would you accuse the UK of "stomping their feet turning red and taking their marbles home"?

flamingdem

(39,313 posts)
4. What we used to call a "crab out" in the neighborhood where I grew up
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 03:25 AM
Jul 2013

.. this is clear because it's temporary. Games that increase Morales popularity at home and within South America but sadly not based on solid enough evidence.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
5. Quite a number of Latin American countries have good historical reason to be suspicious of the US
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 03:29 AM
Jul 2013

but Morales is just blowing smoke-rings from his behind in this particular case

delrem

(9,688 posts)
6. no. you're too busy whistling past the graveyard.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 03:36 AM
Jul 2013

You don't seem to understand that US/SA encompass more than "suspicions".

You don't seem to understand what all the new confederacies in SA are about.

You're just whistling, whistling in the wind...

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
9. Personal attacks are really no substitute for understanding the world. I actively opposed
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 04:13 AM
Jul 2013

Reagan's wars in Central America, and I've worked at various times to educate people about other interventions in the Americas, including the notorious connections of the Nixon administration to some of the human rights atrocities in Chile, Uruguay, or Brazil. If you search DU2, you'll find posts by me about Bush administration efforts to destabilize Bolivia, to overthrow the government of Venezuela, or to claim that the Argentinian government was taking illegal campaign money, as well as discussion of the significance of sending Negroponte to Iraq, given his dreadful earlier record as ambassador top Honduras. That only scratches the surface of Yankee intervention in the Americas, and we can all stipulate that the picture is not always pretty

But the topic of this thread is rather specific: it concerns the diplomatic crises Morales has been busily engineering in July

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
10. Everything you listed is the result of a sense superiority towards SA
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 04:39 AM
Jul 2013

...from the US and ex-colonial EU powers and the idea that those lesser nations merely exist to serve their betters. This last fiasco, though brief, only illustrates that the entitled superiority and demand for subservience is still there.

You may consider it minimal but I think that just misses the point. South Americans deserve human dignity.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
13. Again, I think we can simply stipulate the human avarice, which combined
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:27 AM
Jul 2013

with the accidental military superiority of the colonizers and their various ideological descendents, produced that paradox which Galeano so accurately described: human poverty as a consequence of the wealth of the land. The resulting mythology of cultural or racial superiority is best viewed, I think, not as the motive for the rapacious exploitation, but as a mystification of the exploitation -- that is, as a convenient disguise -- parallel to the mythology of the criminality of black men, which served as a mystification of the exploitation underlying rented convict labor in chain-gangs in Southern fields and factories during most of the Jim Crow era. Sometimes the veil was drawn aside, quietly, in private memos, such as Kennan's 1948 PPS23, discussing Asia:

... Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction ...


In short: the desire to exploit always motivated the theories of innate superiority, rather than the other way around

But, again, having stipulated that, I will remark that the thread here does not concern the long history of human exploitation by other humans, or the various disguises sometimes used to distract people from the actual meanings of some of their histories, it concerns the entirely artificial diplomatic crises currently manufactured by Morales

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
14. Question: How do you think he should have responded?
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:42 AM
Jul 2013

I don't actually agree with withdrawing ambassadors either, I think the breakdown of communication is a mistake. But I also don't think the response should have been to quietly take it, which is what I suppose the governments involved feel entitled to expect from Bolivia.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
18. That does not answer the question.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 03:49 PM
Jul 2013

It is now clear what happened. William Eacho, a US ambassador who has no business being an ambassador as former CEO of a real estate mega-giant, made false claims to the Austrian Foreign Department that he was 'certain' Snowden was on board. Multiple countries engaged in the shenanigans. This has now been confirmed by some of the countries involved, but not the US(guess we'll have to wait for the leaks haha) and is no longer a point of argument.

So the initial cries of "hurf blurf conspiracy nuts" look especially dumb now. I guess the only question is who gave Eacho that false info, or did he just make it up out of thin air and act on his own? This is somewhat tangential to my main point though.

So again, how do you think Morales should have responded? How do you think Obama should respond to Air Force One being grounded and searched for absolutely no good reason? Do you think their responses should be different? If so, why? This is an important question because it relates to the human dignity of South Americans so do not try to minimize it as you have been.

I think their responses should be the same, though I can not comment on exactly how far they should go, because I do not believe that some people are superior to others.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
20. To my knowledge, there is only one press account asserting such a claim from Eacho, and it is
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 04:45 PM
Jul 2013

likely to be a garbled account of what actually happened: on 1 July, Eacho was summoned by Austria, which demanded an explanation from him of some of Snowden's allegations, so it is very believable that Eacho contacted Austria on 2 July with some manner of a response (probably merely a report back to Vienna that the US Department of State was studying Austria's request), and it wouldn't be particularly surprising if that conversation mentioned Snowden, or was described later by someone as being (say) about "the Snowden affair"

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
22. Austria summons US ambassador over spy scandal (AFP 2 July)
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:14 PM
Jul 2013

Agence France-Presse
7:27 am | Tuesday, July 2nd, 2013
VIENNA — Austria summoned the US ambassador on Monday to explain reports that Washington had bugged European offices and embassies amid a growing diplomatic row. In a meeting with the ambassador, William Eacho, Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger expressed Austria’s worries over the spiralling espionage scandal that has threatened to damage transatlantic ties and demanded a rapid clarification. Eacho promised to transmit Vienna’s concerns to the “relevant authorities,” according to local news agency APA ...
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/436737/austria-summons-us-ambassador-over-spy-scandal

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
36. This says nothing of the plane and says he was not "summoned"
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:33 PM
Jul 2013

Has the link changed since you posted it?

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
41. It says the US ambassador in neighboring Germany was "invited" not "summoned" -- but
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:17 PM
Jul 2013

the main focus of the article is that Austria summoned the US ambassador. Austria and Germany being different nations, it is entirely possible for one to invite its US ambassador to discuss an EU issue, while the other summons its US ambassador to discuss the same issue

The matter in question here is a single unconfirmed press report that the US ambassador called the Austrian foreign office to discuss Snowden shortly after the Bolivian plane landed in Vienna -- a report which plays a role in the popular theory that there was some coordinated action to force the Bolivian plane down in Vienna so that it could be searched to determine whether Snowden was aboard

The point of this CONFIRMED story -- about the US ambassador being summoned by the Austrians on Monday 1 July in order to demand an explanation regarding Snowden's allegations that the US spied on the EU -- is that the US ambassador would, under those circumstances, be expected to contact the Austrian foreign office with some manner of response as soon as Washington had studied the Austrian questions and provided the US ambassador with instructions. So (in particular) a call from the US ambassador sometime on Tuesday 2 July, with reference to something like "the Snowden affair," would have been entirely predictable, without any need to speculate that the intent of the call was to encourage the Austrians to search planes for Snowden as a hide-away

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
48. I still do not get why the US ambassador answering
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:03 PM
Jul 2013

questions on Snowden's revelations has anything to do with the plane incident. I agree with your last paragraph.

What this suggests is CT people connecting dots that do not necessarily connect.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
50. You are still dodging.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:55 AM
Jul 2013

Also I'm not sure what you were trying to disprove by linking that article. It doesn't even address what we are talking about. Here, let me help you.

Eacho “claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard.” He also made reference to a “diplomatic note requesting Snowden’s extradition.”

Spain says it and other European countries were told that the NSAwhistleblower Edward Snowden was on board the Bolivian presidential plane that was diverted to Austria this week, causing a diplomatic row.
The foreign minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, said on Spanish National Television on Friday that “they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside”.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ambassador-to-austria-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane-report/5342027

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
24. Overflight permissions, except possibly for France, existed until the plane landed, according to
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:23 PM
Jul 2013

Bolivian Defense Minister Saavedra, who was on the plane:

... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that time our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... The pilot himself had apparently heard a rumor that Mr Snowden was on-board ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... They asked for our passports; we had no problem displaying them; ... they reviewed them quickly and returned ... After landing, the crew received notification of Portugal and Italy that they had canceled the overflight and landing permits in their territories ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ... The ambassador returned at 9:30 <AM>; President Morales told him it was all sorted out and thanked him ...
Rubén Saavedra Soto: “Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001”
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
37. From this, it seems the Bolivian President's misunderstood comment was the start of it
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:41 PM
Jul 2013

It is hard to tell as it is confusing and the timing is not clear. They say the closures were AFTER the landing. It is also not clear whose ambassador is referred to - but I would interpret it as Bolivian as he returned the next morning and was thanked by Morales.

I don't read Spanish but taking the translate page resulted in a different translation than in your post. It also was very hard to understand. The commanding officer speaking of the rumor is strange.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
43. The ambassador is the Spanish ambassador who, according to the plane-search theories, arrived
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:31 PM
Jul 2013

arrived at the Vienna airport in order to search Morales plane. The account of the Bolivian defense minister, who was onboard, is that the Spanish ambassador never mentioned Snowden, said that he was quite tired, and wondered if Morales might chat with him over a cup of coffee; Morales exploded at him and accused the Spanish ambassador of calling him a liar, adding that Snowden was not aboard the plane; this (according to the Bolivian defense minister) startled the ambassador, who didn't know what to say and who finally left, promising to return first thing in the morning

There are interpretations of this which require no conspiracies to search the plane. The Bolivian defense minister says that having been denied the right to land, Morales got on the phone with his government. It's entirely reasonable to suspect that Morales made claims regarding several countries, similar to the claims he has made ever since, and that Bolivia officials contacted the other countries, including Spain, which promptly instructed its ambassador in Vienna to get to the airport and try to figure out what Morales was upset about. The Spanish ambassador can't have gotten to the airport before about midnight, and if he was clueless about what Morales thought, saying he was tired, and asking for a chance to sit with Morales over coffee, may have been a perfectly natural diplomatic move

muriel_volestrangler

(101,320 posts)
42. And you leave out him saying they had to avoid French airspace
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:28 PM
Jul 2013

and they had the choice of returning to Moscow, trying to obtain sudden flight permission from several countries to divert around French airspace, which seemed unlikely to be achievable, or to land in the country they were over - Austria. Only then did they tell Vienna they had a fuel gauge they were unsure about, so that Vienna couldn't deny them landing rights.

It's clear the problem was that France denied them permission to fly over (not, as you claim elsewhere, permission to land). And that's the problem - France withdrew flight permission, because someone (cough, USA) told them Snowden was on board.

¿Qué posibilidades barajaron ante la situación?

Regresar a Moscú. La otra, aunque más remota, era obviar el espacio aéreo francés y llegar a nuestro destino en Islas Canarias, pero no teníamos autorizaciones de Estados colindantes para hacer eso. Vimos que lo más pertinente era llegar al aeropuerto más cercano. Estábamos en espacio aéreo austriaco, así que la elección fue rápida.

What were the options in the situation?

Return to Moscow. The other, even more remote, was avoid French airspace and reach our destination in the Canary Islands, but we did not have authorization to do that from neighboring states. We saw it was more important to get to the nearest airport. We were in Austrian airspace, so the choice was fast.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
45. Let's look at the situation with France in detail
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:13 PM
Jul 2013

The original flight plan involved refueling in Lisbon and later in Guyana. Before the flight left, Portugal said Lisbon had technical problems. The flight plan was modified to refuel in the Canary Islands. But once in flight, the plane requested permission to land to refuel in France. The fact that this request did not accord with the filed flight plan appears to have confused French air traffic control, who seem not to have been sure originally whether there was one Bolivian plane or two, denied landing permission, and delayed granting overflight permission, until the situation was clarified. The Bolivians finally obtained an emergency landing in Vienna, by reporting low fuel indications. The underlying problem seems to be that they didn't have enough fuel to reach the Canary Islands

... Morales originally planned to fly home from a Moscow summit via Western Europe, stopping in Portugal and Guyana to refuel ...
Plane lands in a storm
By Michael Weissenstein and Angela Charlton
Associated Press
Posted: July 05, 2013
http://articles.philly.com/2013-07-05/news/40373387_1_bolivian-president-evo-morales-airspace

... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ...
Rubén Saavedra Soto: “Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001”
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201

... Portugal said it had granted permission for the plane to fly through its air space but declined Bolivia's request for a refueling stop in Lisbon due to unspecified technical reasons ...
Bolivia plane incident infuriates Latin America
Associated Press
MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN and ANGELA CHARLTON
July 4, 2013
http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-plane-incident-infuriates-latin-america-211051576.html

... After taking off from Moscow, Mr. Morales’s plane sought permission to land in France to refuel, according to Carlos Romero, the minister of government in La Paz, Bolivia. But France refused and denied the plane permission to enter French airspace ...
Barring of Bolivian Plane Infuriates Latin America as Snowden Case Widens
By WILLIAM NEUMAN and ALISON SMALE
Published: July 3, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/snowden.html?pagewanted=all

... French President Francois Hollande said "there was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France" ...
Bolivia Plane Incident Infuriates Latin America
07/03/2013 4:26 PM KSTP.com
By: Leslie Dyste
http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3087837.shtml?cat=1

... French President Francois Hollande told reporters in Berlin on Wednesday that .. permission was granted as soon as he knew it was Morales' plane.France Foreign Ministry on Wednesday also issued a statement ... "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over (French) territory," said ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot ...
France apologises to Bolivia over jet row
Morales’s plane not allowed to country because of 'conflicting information' about passengers, says French President.
Last Modified: 04 Jul 2013 10:46
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/07/2013747914179924.html

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
26. Bolivia enroute unexpectedly requested a refueling stop in France, which produced confusion
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:37 PM
Jul 2013

about how many planes were involved: France denied the refueling request and delayed overflight permission until it was clarified that this was Morales plane, at which point overflight permission was granted

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
29. So Morales should either have taken enough fuel in Moscow to reach the refueling point designated
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:43 PM
Jul 2013

in his approved flight plan (Las Palmas in the Canary Islands) or should have delayed leaving Moscow until he had an approved flight plan with an approved continental refueling point

Instead, his plane left Moscow with the apparent idea that enroute he could just land to refuel anywhere that seemed to him convenient

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
31. Morales didn't engineer this diplomatic crisis; Italy, Spain, and France did, at our behest.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:53 PM
Jul 2013

I think you just engaged in blaming the victim.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
39. You're entitled to your opinion, but you'll learn more if you make a concerted effort to ensure that
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:56 PM
Jul 2013

your opinion is solidly based on facts, not on loose deductions from half-quotes or urban legends propagated by lazy reporters

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
52. The one who needs some serious learning is you.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 09:03 AM
Jul 2013

With your snooty attitude towards this poster and towards South Americans.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
32. That is really childish. If you can't contribute above kindergarten level...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:54 PM
Jul 2013

...maybe you should quit embarrassing yourself.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
11. You go, Evo!
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:11 AM
Jul 2013

I don't see anything wrong in calling them home to give instructions, since you CAN'T TRUST SOCIAL MEDIA ANYMORE, not even old-fashioned land lines. Even if it's just to come home and do a little dance around the hat, it's their business, isn't it?

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
17. Yada Yada Yada, bet Spain, Italy and France are crying. Guess what, they still control their air
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:15 AM
Jul 2013

Space and I doubt Bolivia will be the control factor. Get over yourself, who died and left Evo in charge of these countries. Yep, Evo will still need permission to fly over their air space.

dusty trails

(174 posts)
25. Spain, Italy and France are crying. Guess what, they still control their air
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:29 PM
Jul 2013

Except when Obama tells them to shut it down ?

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
27. it seems Spain, France and Italy just may not be allowing Bolivia to tell them what to do,
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:39 PM
Jul 2013

I am sure they make their decisions themselves and not like the patsy Snowden has allowed himself to be talked into.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
33. They took extraordinary action against the head of state of a sovereign nation.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:56 PM
Jul 2013

It's amazing how L'Affaire Snowden makes people twist and turn.

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
40. What would be the reason for thinking that France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain are less zealous
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:02 PM
Jul 2013

about their own sovereignty than (say) Bolivia?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
28. good point
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:41 PM
Jul 2013

who is suffering here, certainly not those countries. And did Bolivia even close its airspace to those countries - does Air France even fly there?

Just another way to get attention for Evo.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
34. It is really quite sad and pathetic.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:58 PM
Jul 2013

These folks are so blinded by the Snowden mania they want to jab at Bolivia. Why, exactly? For Bolivia having the nerve to protest the unprecedented action against the airplane of their president?

bitchkitty

(7,349 posts)
44. It's disgusting.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:56 PM
Jul 2013

They celebrate their ignorance and proudly wave the bigot flag. It's truly disgusting.

mitchtv

(17,718 posts)
46. you'll have to excuse the Spanish ambassador,
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:16 PM
Jul 2013

he got confused himself as the colonial governor for a moment

struggle4progress

(118,288 posts)
47. It's been nearly 200 years since Spain lost Bolivia as a colony: there may still be some populist
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:33 PM
Jul 2013

advantage in Bolivia to portray Spain as having a colonial mentality towards Bolivia, but there's no reason to think such portrayals reflect current views in Spain

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