George Zimmerman Witness Can't Read Letter She 'Wrote' About Shooting

[alp227]

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: ABC News

A teenage friend of Trayvon Martin was forced to admit today in the George Zimmerman murder trial that she did not write a letter that was sent to Martin's mother describing what she allegedly heard on a phone call with Martin moments before he was shot.

In a painfully embarrassing moment, Rachel Jeantel was asked to read the letter out loud in court.

"Are you able to read that at all?" defense attorney Don West asked.

Jeantel, head bowed, eyes averted whispered into the court microphone, "Some but not all. I don't read cursive."

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-witness-read-letter-wrote-shooting/story?id=19504826&singlePage=true

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Looks like Zimmerman = the next OJ Simpson. (ETA) Mychal Smith at TheNation.com provides another angle.

[elleng]

1. That poor young woman.

[NoOneMan]

2. holy schmoly

Did someone write it for her from her words? Or what?

So much of this stuff is so irrelevant (he chased him down and forever reason, shot him in a situation of his own creation). They could of convicted him without her. But she is such a flashpoint he might get off.

[OKNancy]

5. her words, she dictated it to a friend n/t

[TrogL]

9. If they don't allow a dictated letter, a whole lotta business lawsuits have to be reopened

[CTyankee]

55. Secretaries from back in the day will tell you that they had to clean up a lot of stuff that

was dictated by some very powerful male bosses. Nobody thought a thing of it. This is a young woman, caught in difficult circumstances, doing the best she can.

[darkangel218]

7. I agree.

Bad move for Prosecution.

[DhhD]

32. It is perfectly acceptable to write or read for someone if they have a disability or believe

they have. School Districts across America hire educational aides and special education aides to read and/or transcribe for persons with rehabilitative needs and with special needs. It is perfectly legal under IDEA-Individuals with Disabilities Education Act and the Rehabilitation Act of 1964. It would be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to not read it for her in court. That is unless those were not her words.

[enlightenment]

37. Is the inability to read cursive a disability?

I really don't think so.

[DhhD]

76. http://www.medicinenet.com/dyslexia/article.htm

There are a lot more specific disabilities from the manual of disorders that psychologist use to diagnose Dyslexia and Related Disorders; the DSMVI

Corrections: Rehabilitation Act of 1973. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 allows me to have advocacy for people with disabilities.

If I were the defense attorney, I would tell the Judge that the case needs to be retried after this lady's evaluation for Specific Learning Disabilities. Person's with paralysis can use a wheel chair. Persons with dyslexia and related disorders have the right to an evaluation, rehabilitation and access so as to provide as much normalcy as possible.

I really do think so that this first trial is now in peril.

http://psychology.about.com/od/psychotherapy/f/faq_dsm.htm

[DhhD]

82. Another reversal; that should be IV (fourth edition).

[enlightenment]

96. Dyslexia is a disability.

The ability to read cursive - because one has not learned how to read cursive - is not. Let's not conflate the two issues.

I'm not saying the young lady is in the wrong because she was not taught; I am saying that calling this a disability is going too far.

[Bjorn Against]

102. Have you ever heard of learning disabilities?

Yes, it often is a disability.

[enlightenment]

112. Of course I have,

don't be disingenuous.

No one said this young woman couldn't learn cursive. She said she couldn't read it. You're choosing to assume that means she is incapable of learning how, rather than simply not knowing how. Big difference.

[all american girl]

81. No, but....

my son is dyslexic. When he was in 3rd grade, the school he was in, taught cursive in 4th grade. We moved to another state, where they taught cursive in 3rd grade....he missed learning how to do it. I made the decision that reading and spelling was way more important that learning to write cursive. He has finished his first year of college and is doing well. I still reread some of his papers for him, because he still has problems spelling, and spell check only helps up to a certain point. I never judge spelling or people have problems reading.

All I have to say is that when my son was in 6th grade, his friends had more sympathy and compassion for is disabilities....they helped him read his birthday cards and were happy to do it.

Sorry if I sound mad, but I have watch my son be so embarrassed and humiliated by his problems, and I saw the same look on that girl's face...which my son is the same age.

[lunasun]

98. not being taught in schools-, or minimal exposure- institutional disability?

not a requirement in some states for quite a while
http://www.standard.net/stories/2013/04/08/cursive-handwriting-being-erased-public-schools

[neversaydie]

114. don't know

but I know that my school district stopped teach cursive a long time ago. I don't agree, I think that's a mistake.

[LynneSin]

3. Not sure what was proved here

My assumption is that she told her story to someone else who wrote the testimony in cursive script. And she's not the only one who can't read cursive, it seems to be a dying art here in the country.

The fact that she can't read cursive script doesn't make her a less credible witness NOR does it say she's some sort of dummy. Just says that she, like millions of other public school kids were never taught cursive writing.

[former9thward]

14. She said she wrote the letter.

If she told her story to someone else then she lied. That does speak to her credibility. Maybe not to you but to any court. Was the person she told the story to a professional stenographer? If not then a third party who was not present can't write things exactly like they were told.

[targetpractice]

24. Perhaps, her friend read the letter back her for approval?

Not a difficult scenario to imagine, really.

[former9thward]

31. Perhaps she should not of said she wrote it.

[frylock]

74. did you just write this?

or was it typed on a keyboard?

[former9thward]

80. She did neither but said she did.

[frylock]

87. dictated but not read..

not seeing the big deal here.

[former9thward]

88. Dictated to who?

A professional stenographer? Does she have professional experience dictating? You may think it is petty but there are hard rules of evidence in court.

[frylock]

90. i'm not an attorney, so i'll defer..

this does nothing to discount the eyewitness accounts from yesterday. quite frankly, I don't think this witness's testimony will have much bearing on the jury's decision.

[former9thward]

92. Except for a thread or two on DU I am not following the trial at all.

I refuse to read articles about it or watch any of it. Too much speculation for me.

[John2]

52. It is irrelevant

if the Defense placed it in evidence. It wasn't something she agreed to under oath, if it was a letter, that she asked to be written and given to Trayvon's mother. That would be evidence for the Defense on discovery of something she didn't say under Oath to the Prosecutors. You will have a problem impeaching her if that wasn't under oath.

I don't think it goes to her credibility at all. She might have thought the letter was hers. You just don't understand different people culturally.As far as she was concerned, the letter was her product. The Defense wants to impeach her, but the jury and everybodyelse has heard her testimony. Why do you think they want impeach her now? I'll tell you the reason why. There could be other evidence to collaborate her testimony. That is why the Defense want release her. If the Jury does their jobs right, he will be convicted anyway. He was the aggressor and at fault period. The only evidence he has his injuries came from Martin is his claims. He could have inflicted those wounds himself after killing Martin. The DNA does not support him period. It is just his word.

[former9thward]

60. How could the Defense place it in evidence when its the prosecution's case?

Defense can't place things in evidence until it is their turn.

[ieoeja]

63. She was the "author" of the letter.

Saying she did not write the letter makes as much sense as saying someone using voice activated software to write a letter did not write the letter either since the machine wrote it for her.

Heck, I suppose I did not just write this. I typed it.

This is the sort of argument that people generally make when they know they have a losing argument and just want to tie up the thing in meaningless semantics.

[former9thward]

64. Wrong on all counts and no court would accept your argument.

A person is not a machine. They can't write down what someone else is saying like a machine could. The witness signed a letter when she had no idea of the contents.

[hack89]

71. I can read what that software transcribes and fix any errors

she could not read what she dictated and fix any errors.

[Nevernose]

67. She also added under oath

That she dictated it to a friend. That's the same as writing. She was embarrassed she couldn't write properly, sheesh.

[former9thward]

69. It is not the same in court.

The friend was not a professional stenographer. She signed a letter that she had no idea of the contents.

[antigone382]

94. She didn't write the letter to submit as official evidence.

She had it written to send to Trayvon's mother.

[justiceischeap]

70. Or in her mind, she dictated the letter meaning she "wrote" it. nt

[all american girl]

85. My son is dyslexic, when he was younger, I would help him write his papers.

This consisted of him telling me what he wanted written, and I would write exactly what he said, and I mean exactly. He wrote it, I just put it to paper. He has problems with spelling, and would get all wrapped up with that and not the content, which I thought was much more important. And no, the boy can't write or read cursive. When your kid has learning disabilities, there are fights worth fighting and cursive is not one of them....spelling, reading, math, etc.

[erpowers]

30. Someone Else Wrote the Letter

Your assumption is correct. She told her thoughts to someone else and they wrote the letter.

[OKNancy]

4. It wasn't embarassing at all

She had a friend write it because she can't read or write in cursive.
She did fine on the stand considering the circumstances.

As one commentator said... she isn't sophisticated and the defense lawyer is and was using the disparity to his advantage.

[Lasher]

35. Then why didn't she print the letter herself?

That's what I do. I can read and write cursive but I gave it up years ago except to sign my name.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Another cursive thread is exploring this

The thread I want to read -

If you can't read/write cursive hand writing - is that a test of your intelligence? Your value as a human being? Does it make your intent less positive?

I give her kudos for admitting that.

[darkangel218]

8. Why would anyone sign something they dont understand though?

It makes no sense.

[JustAnotherGen]

17. I don't know

How old are you?
Level of education?
What years were you in grade school?
Was english the first language spoken in your home as a child?


All of those things will probably help you to answer that question. For me - I know I was born very very lucky.

[targetpractice]

25. Maybe her friend read it back to her for approval? n/t

[JDPriestly]

38. So who is the friend?

Shouldn't the friend testify?

This puts all of her testimony in question in my opinion.
How could the prosecutor have put her on the stand without investigating precisely where that letter came from?

This is not believable. Just not believable. Who called this witness? The prosecutor? Did he just assume that she wrote the letter?

Are we not getting the whole story on this?

[DallasNE]

44. Disagree Totally

Splitting hairs over whether someone authored versus wrote a note is a minor point. How many books are ghost written by someone other than the author? This is not a totally unexpected twist in this case. Do you have any idea of what goes on in school when it comes to learning, especially in inter-city schools. Now we know why this young woman did a lot of things to try and avoid getting sucked into this case but her circumstances just wouldn't allow it.

[nolabear]

27. Ever get a mortgage? Check a user agreement saying you read it?

People sign things all the time they don't have a prayer of understanding. To me it sounds as if she dictated a letter to her friend and the friend, who could write in cursive, which for some reason she thought was a good idea, wrote the letter. It's like writing to someone in a language you don't speak.

[darkangel218]

33. I understand. But it was only one page.

And I would never sign something I don't undrstand.

[OnlinePoker]

48. She had to get a friend to help write it.

She may be functionally illiterate and unable to read or write very well. In the old days it was common for you to be asked to "make your mark" if you didn't write something. I hate to think of how many people ended up dead because they put a mark on a statement or confession they couldn't read.

[elleng]

34. I suspect it happens all the time,

peole think they SHOULD understand, are embarrassed, intimidated, etc etc etc.

[nenagh]

12. The headline is very misleading because she never claimed to write the letter...

Makes it look like Rachel lied..

[JustAnotherGen]

18. That's what I thought

[nenagh]

23. Just seems unfair, doesn't it..

Lots of people won't understand

[kelliekat44]

10. Creole was the first language she spoke at home. She is a person who is of Haitian background and

does not have the full command of the English language. Children raised in low income neighborhood and who suffer from some learning deficiencies often do not read, speak, or comprehend as others, That said, at least she was aware of her own shortcomings and asked someone to write the letter for her. I doesn't mean that the words or reporting were not her own understanding of the events that she was describing.

[Marrah_G]

11. She had a friend write it for her

Defense is grasping for straws.

[kelliekat44]

13. I know plenty of white, black, and hispanic high school kids who can't read cursive. it isn't

It isn't being taught in a lot of schools. In many schools it's optional. We started teaching our grandchildren on our own. That said, I don't understand texting lingo in many instances either but the kids do.

[JustAnotherGen]

21. Fair point

I'm 40 and work in the wireless industry. I.E. I always have the latest and greatest device.

I receive many text messages from my 20-something MBA co-workers and very often have to pick up the phone or walk to their desk to understand what the hell they are talking about.

My husband IS fluent in SMSology - and I sometimes have him respond to text messages for people who canNOT take a call at the moment, need info from me, but the info is complex.

What takes me a 'message' that gets truncated into 6 or 7 messages - he can spit out in 1 - or 2 messages max.

He also likes to remind me that I'm the one that works in the industry - so it's fun to laugh at me when I say I'm going to 'send an SMS'. He always comes back with "An ENTIRE service? Or just one message? "

[Demoiselle]

22. It isn't being taught in a lot of schools?

I was just going to ask whether it's taught very much these days. I know few of us sit down in our Lavender-scented boudoirs to pen personal notes to people....but it occurs to me that the eye/hand/brain coordination needed to write in longhand may well be a very good exercise for young minds. Am I being an old fart? Any thoughts?

[TheDebbieDee]

29. A lot of districts may be teaching keyboarding instead of penmanship these days.

I found out a few years ago that my daughters, aged 28 and 25, were never taught to tell time on a clockface that wasn't digital. I realized that they just look at the Grandfather's clock in the livingroom and have no clue what time it is nor can they read Roman numerals above 4.

But they know how to download music and can use all kinds of phone and internet apps. Young people are simply learning a different set of skills, that's all.

[enlightenment]

41. Schools started to drop it, but I recently read that they are

that some are bringing it back for the very reasons you mention.

Nobody is asking for Palmer script - just legible writing. The young people I teach (college) are often incapable of printing legibly, much less writing in cursive.

[CTyankee]

56. I find it difficult to write in cursive any more. Being retired, I don't print out addressed

envelopes and I send paper greeting cards as well. But I have lost some of my ability to form some letters, e.g. capital G's.

Do college students take "blue book" tests any more?

[Travis_0004]

101. Yes

(Your question do college students take blue book test)

It was quite common in my English and History classes. Almost unheard of in my Business classes.

[woodsprite]

58. Yup! Ability to read/execute cursive script has nothing to do with intelligence

My son is an honors student in advanced placement classes, but cannot write cursive (other than sign his name) and struggles to read cursive text. He only had it in 4th grade and has never used it since unless I make him practice it. Truthfully cursive practice has fallen through the cracks though, we push enough to get him to take his time to print legibly rather than texting or typing everything.

[Beacool]

109. Lousy educational system we have in this country.

We are graduating functional illiterates.

[npk]

15. She did have a friend dictate the note

How is this any different then what some corporate CEO's do all the fucking time. Business executive and CEO's constantly have secrataries dictate letters. They then sign the letters after they have been written. No one ever seems to question what wealthy people have dictated, huh.

[freshwest]

61. You got that right.

[auntsue]

100. dictate means

saying what you want written - to someone who writes it down. Secretaries don't dictate letters, they "take dictation" then type it and give it to the boss for signature.
Sorry if this seems picky-- I am the way I am

[CreekDog]

16. who cares if someone can't read cursive

unless it's clearly written, that is difficult to read.

cursive is a relic. there's a reason they don't teach it anymore --it's outdated and outmoded.

[cosmicone]

19. I think it is a trap by the prosecution.

Once the defense is done harassing her, on redirect, they will bring out her Haitian background etc. and jurors would find her credible.

[MH1]

43. The defense started out with a knock-knock joke FFS.

They didn't help their standing with the jury by that. The more they harass this poor girl the more they look like the a**holes they already set themselves up to be.

[Hoyt]

20. Didn't hear her full testimony, but I heard nothing that changes my opinion that Zman

shot an unarmed teenager in cold blood.

I admire her courage, and restraint in not lashing out at the murderer sitting there as if he were innocent.

[mzmolly]

26. She can't read cursive. And, English is her third language.

That's not going to set Zimmerman free, sorry.

[darkangel218]

36. Its not her third language.

She was born here, spoke English all her life. Just because your parents grew up somewhere else doesnt give one the right to say English is their third language. She went to school here obviously , since kindergarten.

I wish the State didn't call her as a witness, she impeached herself and it may cost Trayvon his justice.

[Tx4obama]

105. English is her third language. First is Creole and Second is Spanish.

She grew up in a Haitian household.

Her mother speaks Creole and very little English.

[Judi Lynn]

106. Thank you for making that point. Wonder how racists would do in a similar situation. n/t

[neversaydie]

115. English only baby

racists expect everyone to speak and read English. why should they learn other languages? such blasphemy!!

I admire that young woman's courage.

[frylock]

28. dictated but not read..

BFD. this doesn't change eyewitness testimony from yesterday that had the man on top as the shooter. this asshole defense attorney is only trying to restore his "credibility" by badgering this girl.

[JDPriestly]

40. The defense attorney is doing his job.

If the prosecutor called this witness, he should have explored this problem with her when he examined her before the jury.

Don't blame the defense attorney for the prosecutor's mistake -- if that is really what this is and if this is really what happened.

[frylock]

42. so what is he hoping to establish?

I know he's doing his job. he's still a dick.

[JDPriestly]

45. In my opinion (and that is all it is), he is trying to place doubt

in the minds of the jury about the young woman's testimony. He wants the jury to question whether the words on that paper reflect her memory of the events or whether maybe she was told what to say she remembered. He is trying to get the jury to disregard her testimony because it may not be reliable.

[frylock]

49. you're most likely correct..

but as I stated upthread, the testimony from yesterday was pretty damning and I think that Zimmerman is cooked based on that.

[JDPriestly]

53. What was the testimony from yesterday?

Was that about the Neighborhood watch and Zimmerman's many racist reports to the police on suspects in his area?

[frylock]

54. person on top was the shooter..

Zimmerman claims that martin was on top beating his head into the pavement. Prosecution asked witness how she can be sure the shooter was on top. her response was "because he stood up after the shot," or something to that affect.

[frylock]

57. from yesterday's thread..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023100300#post55

[DainBramaged]

39. Where are Zmmy's defenderz now......

[thesquanderer]

46. speaking of literacy

It's kind of funny, in the context of this thread, that people have typed "could of" (instead of "could have&quot and "should not of said" (instead of "should not have said&quot . Carry on...

[Igel]

78. They're stuck with it.

They're not saying "could have" or "should not have".

They're saying what I would transcribe as "could've" and "shouldn't've". Not in the list of licit contractions handed down from our forefathers, but still it's how we speak.

Not licit contractions, but at some point people stop having a register in which "shouldn't have" is pronounced as "shouldn't" and "have". They cliticize the function words and it's nice to have a way of representing the cliticization. It's how we got words like "it's" and "won't", after all.

[still_one]

47. What in the hell was the prosecutor doing? Did he not talk to these people before?

[Downtown Hound]

50. So it was a dictated letter. Big deal. n/t

[hrmjustin]

51. I don't see this as a big deal to the case.

[magical thyme]

59. Redirect can give her opportunity to explain that she composed the letter, a friend

wrote it down, if that has not been done already.

[BigD_95]

62. This witness is a joke and a liar

She has lied about so much little stuff. Why would anyone believe a word out her mouth? If I'm on the jury I would be thinking " I would love to believe you but too many lies... Leaves reasonable doubt"

[kiranon]

65. She's young and uneducated and perhaps not all that bright but

I would believe her on the basic point that Zimmerman was following her friend.

[marshall]

72. And doesn't she also have a drug problem?

I believe she couldn't attend Trayvon's funeral because she was high.

All of these are easily argued away, but it is also forming a story for the jury. They will have to see something that counters all of the problems this woman has introduced.

[noiretextatique]

77. does your belief have any basis in fact?

or is it just your opinion?

[Travis_0004]

84. She does have tweets about drugs, being high, and drunk driving.

I really don't care about why she didn't attend the funeral, but she isn't exactly the most trust worthy witness.

[marshall]

93. The part about the funeral was what caught my eye

I'm not making any judgment about her reliability or veracity, sine my opinion doesn't matter anyway. Just pointing out that all of this are pieces to a puzzle the jury will be putting together. It's hard for me to believe any of this surprised the prosecution. They have had over a year to get to know this woman. But with all her baggage they chose to put her up anyway, and I expect they have something that will swing back the other way.

[noiretextatique]

75. jebus...this place is crawling with zimmermans

she lied about "little stuff" but she's remained consistent about the big stuff, even though that idiot defense attorney tried to trip her up. i think she came off as far more credible than zimmerman defenders.

[Riftaxe]

66. Unfortunately a high school senior that is illiterate

is hardly uncommon these days.

[Travis_0004]

86. Perhaps they should subpoena whoever let her pass the 11th grade.

[NoodleyAppendage]

99. Bingo. How she was pushed through high school really speaks to lowered educational standards. n/t

J

[Beacool]

110. That's the sad part.

[marshall]

117. She is no doubt functionally illiterate

And even in oral English she communicates in AAVE, African American Vernacular English. It is probably a great strugglr for her to phrase her words in a way that can communicate her ideas.

She may have also been in a special education curriculum, which has a different standard for completion.

[Fringe]

68. I can't believe this is a big deal.

I grew up in the 70s in a black neighborhood and there were a lot of people who could not read or who could barely read.

The neighborhood was poor and so were the schools. Not uncommon even today. Learning disabilities go undiagnosed.

[Igel]

83. Schools are highly motivated to diagnose learning disabilities.

Too much so: There's a limit to the number of kids you can have diagnosed and still take standardized tests that count for AYP. It was a standard trick in the '80s and '90s: Those illiterate kids that simply didn't learn, for whatever reason, are "learning disabilitied" and no longer count against you.

That said, there are still a lot of people that can't read or who can barely read.

Wealthy teachers aren't necessary for education.

Neither are wealthy parents.

I've seen "poor schools" in the US much better equipped than some classrooms at good universities in poor countries. I've seen kids doing pre-AP and AP-level work using equipment that sits unused in poor schools because of lack of interest.

[Flatulo]

95. So how much does it cost to teach someone to read, already?

The Asian countries are teaching their kids calculus at age 11, and 20% of our high school seniors are illiterate.

I wonder who's getting left behind?

[Judi Lynn]

73. Pervert Don West has bullied, scorned, mocked this young woman from the first.

He has adopted an unholy, vicious, slimy air toward her from the moment he opened his grubby maw.

She has suffered unbearably at his hands under a constant attack as he assailed her intelligence, her honesty, her value as a human being. It's as though he has her on trial for the murder of Jody Arias' boyfriend.

She has been wildly unhappy, beaten down, overwhelmed, angry that he has stooped this low using tools he learned so long ago to devastate other people psychologically. She without a doubt has NEVER been assaulted like this in her life, and he has been riding high in his contempt for her.

It has been hideous. It will take forever for her to overcome her shock at what he unleashed upon her.
I'm certain he has done his profession's image no good whatsoever. He's cheap, vicious, sadistic, a true opportunist, and he's someone who should NOT be allowed that kind of power over anyone.

He needs to experience that kind of helplessness just once in his life which he used to try to destroy this absolutely decent young woman who had no where to hide from his crude exploitation of the power he enjoys and can't handle.

[Mr.Bill]

89. I agree with you, and trust me,

the jury can see it. It will backfire on him. He has insulted and badgered a woman in front of an all woman jury. Forget what color everyone is.

[virgogal]

91. He's a defense lawyer,that's what they do---like it or not. The judge could have reined him in.

[840high]

97. That's any defense lawyer's job.

[Codeine]

107. The job of a defense attorney is, in part, to discredit prosecution witness.

And why is he a pervert?

[COLGATE4]

108. Your complete and utter disdain for

the adversarial trial system we have is duly noted.

[Beacool]

111. This may be news to you, but that's what defense attorneys do.

Conversely, prosecutors will do the same to a witness brought on by the defense.

[Kingofalldems]

79. I think we are having a zombie attack

[Ash_F]

104. +1

Careful though, it is against the rules to call out a racist right wing troll on DU. You'll get hidden.

Everyone knows the winning Democratic strategy is tuck your tail and take it.

[Nye Bevan]

103. And this is supposedly the "star witness".

I wonder how impressed the jury is.

[yardwork]

113. How repulsive of the defense.

They are picking on this young woman because she dictated a letter to the mother of her friend who was murdered?

If the defense thinks that this will get the sympathy they are wrong. They come off as cads.

[yurbud]

116. I've had a lot of college students over the years who couldn't read their own handwriting.

and it was something they wrote right in front of me, so I knew it was theirs.