Snowden Says He Took Job With Contractor To Collect Evidence Of NSA Programs

[WilliamPitt]

Source: TPM

National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden said earlier this month that he took a job with government contractor Booz Allen Hamilton for the express purpose of collecting evidence of top secret surveillance programs.

Snowden made the statement in a June 12 interview with South China Morning Post that was published on Monday.

“My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,” Snowden said. “That is why I accepted that position about three months ago.”

Read more: http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/snowden-says-he-took-job-with-contractor-to?ref=fpblg

[Thinkingabout]

1. This sounds like it was his intent and the cause group should start looking over their shoulder.

I hope further security clearance will exclude those of libertarian leaning which intentionally tries to disrupt the USA.

[cantbeserious]

2. How About The US Government Intentionally Gutting The 4th Amendment

eom

[Thinkingabout]

8. What proof do you base your claim?

[cantbeserious]

11. The News

eom

[Thinkingabout]

13. This may be reported in the news sources you read but since the NSA is operating under the Fourth

Amendment by gathering information with a warrant. They are protected by the Fourth Amendment, does it need to get to a higher point?

[The Stranger]

25. The puroported procedure the NSA followed is not Constitutional.

Therefore, they are not operating under the Fourth Amendment.

[Thinkingabout]

26. Where did you get your information of the procedure?

[The Stranger]

32. Is there some reason to doubt my information of the procedure?

[Thinkingabout]

33. That wasn't the question, where did you get the information?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

143. The only reason to doubt you I'd because you have no proof.

Show me proof and I will not doubt you.

[gholtron]

34. What court made that decision?

Or did you just pulled that out of your (_|_)?

[karynnj]

108. has the Supreme Court ruled so?

It is one thing to say that you disagree - the other to say it is unconstitutional.

[The Stranger]

147. It hasn't yet come before the Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court

Perhaps with Snowden's leak, it will.

[cantbeserious]

44. It Is Not My Responsibilty To Be Your Fact Checker

eom

[byeya]

63. + + That's a good response to those who want to highjack threads about our civil rights.

[jeff47]

75. This thread's about Snowden's admission. Trying to make it about civil rights is a hijack. (nt)

[jeff47]

85. If a poster is hijacking in order to complain about hijacks

then they should be ready to explain the irony.

[leveymg]

88. He doesn't have to explain his point. It's not a thread hijack, it's an expression of difference

A thread hijack is going off on an entirely unrelated topic.

[jeff47]

91. You should probably go back and actually read the posts.

The poster is complaining that threads on Snowden are not all about civil rights. That any discussion about Snowden himself is a hijack.

In a thread that is about Snowden himself, not about any program. Thus not about civil rights.

If you are desperately trying to avoid seeing the irony of that complaint, you might want to take a moment and consider why you are not able to do so.

[leveymg]

95. The same thought has occurred to me. It's not absurd or OT, certainly not a thread hijack

in any sense that I conceive of the term. I agree - those who are focusing on Snowden rather than the NSA are shifting the frame of debate away from the larger issues. But, people are free to shift debates in any way they choose, even to to complain about debate shifting, if they so choose.

[TheMadMonk]

131. A warrant with the US Census stapled to it.

News flash EVERYBODY is not a valid entry for the field SUBJECT.

[brett_jv]

136. Pretty sure it was a subpoena, not a warrant n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

121. Because they didn't file for 300 or so million search warrants?

If they did that I would have no problem with them "data mining" . Let's at least be honest and call it what it is.

[kelliekat44]

125. Thinkingabout, I think you may as well be talking to the wall...but thanks for trying. nt

[DeltaLitProf]

64. Again with this nonsense.

The NSA program Snowden "exposed," which we've already known about for over a decade must get warrants from FISA judges prior to being able to retrieve information. The Fourth Amendment specifically allows exceptions upon judicial warrant.

[leveymg]

83. The public did not "know" that NSA was obtaining phone and email records on everyone. Not nonsense.

There are many aspects of the multiple programs the NSA runs, such as widespread terrorist profiling, on which the courts have not spoken. This issue wouldn't still be blazing if it were as cut-and-dried as you seem to pretend, Prof.

[karynnj]

110. The public knew about the phone records

It was a major issue in late 2006 through August 2007 when the FISA bill passed. There were plenty of stories about Dodd leading an effort - that never gained enough support to filibuster it in late 2006. As he was one of those running for 2008, it did get a lot of coverage.

I did not hear then of email or anything on the internet. I was following the issue, so either I was not diligent enough or this really got little play.

One thing I think everyone with any position on this issue could agree on is that it would be great if Obama or a designated person in his administration explained what the policies are - at whatever level they feel comfortable explaining them. One possibility is to clearly exclude as NOT DONE many possibilities that people fear. The sooner the better something like that should be done.

[askeptic]

112. After being lied to repeatedly, hard to believe anything they say

...and no, the public did not know they were sweeping in all phone records. Obama just explained what the public thought it knew, which turned out to be incorrect at best

[karynnj]

115. Obama was a Senator then

Obviously, many in the American public did not know, but then again there is a portion of the population - at any time - that can not identify who the current VP is.

On the phone records, when FISA was the issue - I think Nov/Dec 2006 and August 2007, it was covered in all major newspapers and there were many many threads on DU2.

[think]

3. And neocons and conservatives and liberals with questionable views on spying on their own....

Hell let's have a good old fashioned which hunt!

[Thinkingabout]

9. Wow, spying by those with questionable views, seems this is what Snowden has done and thus he is

charged with espionage. Do you have proof of any others spying?

[think]

28. Does the fact that the FISA courts have already ruled that the NSA violated the 4th amendment count?

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:27 PM - Edit history (2)

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/07/2012-07-20-OLA-Ltr-to-Senator-Wyden-ref-Declassification-Request.pdf

Does a private NSA contractor launching a campaign of illegal cyberattacks and calculated misinformation against WikiLeaks and its supporters count?:

Palantir Apologizes For WikiLeaks Attack Proposal, Cuts Ties With HBGary
Andy Greenberg, Forbes Staff 2/11/2011 @ 8:03AM

~Snip~

Here’s Palantir’s note in full:

As the Co-Founder and CEO of Palantir Technologies, I have directed the company to sever any and all contacts with HB Gary.

Palantir Technologies provides a software analytic platform for the analysis of data. We do not provide – nor do we have any plans to develop – offensive cyber capabilities. Palantir Technologies does not build software that is designed to allow private sector entities to obtain non-public information, engage in so-called “cyber attacks” or take other offensive measures. I have made clear in no uncertain terms that Palantir Technologies will not be involved in such activities. Moreover, we as a company, and I as an individual, always have been deeply involved in supporting progressive values and causes. We plan to continue these efforts in the future.

The right to free speech and the right to privacy are critical to a flourishing democracy. From its inception, Palantir Technologies has supported these ideals and demonstrated a commitment to building software that protects privacy and civil liberties. Furthermore, personally and on behalf of the entire company, I want to publicly apologize to progressive organizations in general, and Mr. Greenwald in particular, for any involvement that we may have had in these matters.

~Snip~

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palantir-apologizes-for-wikileaks-attack-proposal-cuts-ties-with-hbgary/

[DeltaLitProf]

65. I see no such admission there.

But the attacks described here are certainly not good. They violate existing law against doing property damage. In no way is this linked to the program Snowden allegedly "exposed," which requires warrants from the FISA courts.

[think]

82. I did misspeak. The NSA director only PERMITTED our US Senator to tell us

that the FISA courts had ruled that the NSA had violated the 4th amendment There was no admission to these facts on behalf of the NSA director.

I got in a hurry and was sloppy. I will correct the post.

Sorry about that! And thank you for bringing it to my attention. I should have proof read my source and post more thoroughly before posting.

[adric mutelovic]

87. Was Snowden recently hiding that this was his "intent"?

?

[Autumn]

4. I have no problem with that.

[kardonb]

7. problem

Snowden is a TRAITOR !!!

[Autumn]

10. It's a discussion that needs to be had. He brought it out.

This program is ripe for abuse, and that it is being discussed finally is what matters to me.

[gholtron]

31. Oh please. This is old news.

He didn't point out where the Government has broken the law. Collection of Meta data is not violating the 4th ammendment. Look it up. If what the NSA has done was so unconstitutional then why not let the courts decide it? It's not this traitor's decision to make. Secondly, he stole 4 computers then fled to Hong Kong? Really? Hong Kong? A country controlled by China? That's a perfect place to be with 4 laptops of US classified Information. From there to Russia? Now why would Puttin say no you can't bring those 4 laptops full of classified US information in our country? . Now they can't find him. Surprise surprise. Hummm maybe the Russian secret police would like to take hm to dinner and chat about what's on the 4 laptop computers. Or maybe the 4 laptops he stole was lost at the Hong Kong airport and he's there filing a missing computer report. And by the way, those 4 stolen computers can gain access to the NSA servers to retrieve more information according to the traitor. I don't think we'll be hearing from this guy anymore. He's a permanent guest in Russia. I wonder how that freedom thing is working out for him there. Let's ask the Pussy Cats.

[christx30]

37. How do the courts decide

if it's so secret, there's only one court that knows anything about it, and it just rubberstamps every single decision? How can there be informed consent of the governed if there is no information? Snowden did us all a favor. I hope to stays free and is a constant headache to the NSA.

[askeptic]

52. I'm convinced this is abusive - 4th Amendment doesn't allow fishing for evidence

and the fact they are turning over American's conversations who indicate criminal activity is done by "fishing" for some evidence - there was none prior to the fishing. If having the government follow you everywhere you go is consistent with the 4th Amendment, then it has been nullified, along with the others.

[DeltaLitProf]

66. The FISA courts don't issue warrants for "fishing."

Evidence of crimes have to be submitted to win these warrants. If FISA judges are actually issuing warrants in cases where there is no evidence, then that would be bad. But we don't know that's going on.

[askeptic]

90. What? entire program is "fishing"! ...and if the fishing finds evidence, it goes to law enforcement

with no other evidence of criminality

I realize law enforcement thinks anything is legal that makes their job easier - but

This is "fishing". If they couldn't virtually follow everyone around all the time and listen their conversations, there would be no discovery of the "crime". If they can't make everyone wear a ankle bracelet that records all their movements in order to "fish" for some evidence of wrongdoing, then why can they do it using THIS methodology?

Here's the section of the "secret" NSA authority (from the Guardian)

(2) the communication does not contain foreign intelligence information but is
reasonably believed to contain evidence of a crime that has been, is being, or is about
to be committed. Such communication may be disseminated (including United States
person identities) to appropriate Federal law enforcement authorities, in accordance
with 50 U.S.C. l806(b) and l825(c), Executive Order No. 12333, and, where
applicable, the crimes reporting procedures set out in the August l995 "Memorandum
of Understanding: Reporting of Information Concerning Federal Crimes," ...

[karynnj]

114. Not conversations - phone records - ie time, origin, termination, duration. nt

Other than they are creating a database, how is this different than getting the phone records for a suspect and using them to find who else might have been involved?

Not to mention, what does it mean "to have the government follow you wherever you go". Did you used to have a problem with the Bell System having that same information - needed for billing - that they were required to keep for a period of time?

[askeptic]

132. Big difference from phone records old bell system and gov't mining those records today

And the government's purpose in seizing those records is to build a rich pond of information on its own citizens. Are you aware of what data mining of all this information discloses? It can be used to determine Who are your friends?
What are your politics? Religious affiliations? What are your schedules? Knowing your location (part of the meta-data) is as good as having a tracking device on you. That is absolutely following you around. And it builds suspicion by inference. Just because the phone company knows where you are in order to hook you up to the nearest tower does not mean that the government is therefore entitled to this information because it is part of the logged data.

The 4th Amendment restricts the government. When it seizes this information without suspicion to SEE if you are doing anything suspicious, that is fishing!

And it's also been disclosed that huge amounts of the content are also saved and is "searched" at the discretion of the analyst - absolutely not what they said.

[TheMadMonk]

133. So: Last tuesday, you made a call to an escort agency.

The duration of that call was 1 min 21 seconds. Does your partner know?

What on earth were you doing down by the docks at 3 am?

Why do you constantly call a "burner" phone? (It's your dad who just values his privacy, but as far as NSA is concerned the person on the other end of that call may be an Achmed or Jamal.)

You're going through some old things and find a phone number for a friend you haven't seen in a long time, and on the spur of the moment you decide to give them a call and reconnect. BAD IDEA. In the years you've been apart, your friend has become radicalised, and guess what, NOW they ARE recording your every word.

[brett_jv]

135. If our names were included, I'd be inclined to agree it's pretty obviously contrary to the 4th

W/O names attached to the numbers it become much murkier. We need courts to decide IMHO.

And the 4th has been determined to allow fishing for evidence in number of different ways, actually.

For example, planes can fly over your house looking for pot plants growing in your yard (but they are not supposed to use infrared to in effect, peer into your house to check for grow lamps).

Your trash cans can legally be searched as well.

You can also be 'spied' on whenever you're in public, either by cops directly, or by using cameras. How many cop shows have we seen where a 'tail' is put on somebody ... without any kind of warrant? IOW, the cops can LITERALLY follow you around, legally. And they would never HAVE to prove that you WERE doing something illegal to deserve that scrutiny. Simply put, the cops can follow you around just because they want to. They just can't come into your house. Or listen to your phone calls. Or bring a drug-sniffing dog to your door. Or various other things that the COURTS have specifically said ... are contrary to the 4th.

In fact, the cops collecting all the phone numbers you've dialed w/o a warrant has already been decided as 'okay' ... even with your name attached. The only thing that's different about the verizon case is that they are collecting 'geographic' (cell tower) data as well ... but (supposedly) not our names.

But the idea that the government is completely banned by the 4th from casting a wide net to 'fish' for evidence is (unfortunately) just not true.

Please note: I am NO WAY saying I 'support' this activity. I think it's f***ed up, actually. And it's great that we're talking about it. But I don't necessarily think it's nearly as cut/dry 'against the law' as many others seem to think.

[lark]

12. What if he did this during the Bush administration?

Would you still say that reporting on unconstitution spying on domestic calls, emails, texts made someone a traitor?

It was wrong during the Bush admin. and it's every bit as wrong now. right and wrong are not political parties but rather the policy involved.

If Snowden is a traitor then so was Daniel Ellsburg, Bradley Manning etc. I happen to call all of these whistleblowers. Traitor is what happened when Cheney outted Valarie Palme for a personal vendetta, not what happened with Snowden.

[cynzke]

46. Wait A Minute!

Did Ellsburg, and Manning take four computers of classified info to Hong Kong and Russia? Ah...NO!

[snagglepuss]

78. Revealing how incompetent BoozAllen is is reason enough to give Snowden an award.

[OKNancy]

5. I read the comments section at TPM.

They sure don't go along with some of the love of Snowden like here on DU.

[temmer]

14. I regularly read the comments sections of WaPo, NYT, HuffPo, Guardian etc.

and they sure don't go along with the hate of Snowden (by some) here on DU. 80% don't view him as a traitor.

[frylock]

119. so they're going with the cheney love instead?

[KoKo]

120. TPM...and Josh are not what they started out to be...Josh has a Family now.

That makes a BIG Difference.

[railsback]

6. So this was all a pre-planned gig

I seriously doubt he was banking on cooperation from countries like China and Russia out of the goodness of their hearts, though. Detailed information on programs, like actually programming codes, would be a golden ticket.

[cynzke]

47. Bingo!

[askeptic]

15. It's important to keep easily distracted folks focused on the messenger, not the message

as I see plenty of DU-er's are able to be misdirected in their focus -- and maybe even to purposefully avoid stories about the depth of the spying on US citizens, along with the broad discretion exercised and the lack of oversight.

[cynzke]

55. Baloney!

Some of us can actually do both. Just because we have opinions about Snowden, doesn't mean we don't condemn the NSA spying on US citizens.

[railsback]

84. I think that's what they were saying when Bush was selling the Iraq War.

[sharp_stick]

16. I foresee an unfortunate

accident in this guys future no matter where he finally holes up.

[In_The_Wind]

41. You may be right about that.

[madrchsod]

17. the boy sure was busy in those three months

after reading about his background i tend to be believe he doesn't have jack shit.

i guess we'll have wait and see when all his info is released to the public

[kelliekat44]

126. That clearance network worked out fine didn't it. Booze Allen needs to be called on this. nt

[treestar]

128. Booz isn't very good at supervising employees

They should lose all of their contracts.

[davidpdx]

149. I agree, but one take it one step further

Dump all the government contractors and have any intelligence gathering done by government employees with proper security clearance.

[treestar]

154. My experience with privatization

Is that it sucks. We need to use government employees. Even if it saves money. The private company employees just don't care about properly administering the law the way a government employee would. Leading to exactly this kind of stuff.

[davidpdx]

155. Yep

Someone ought to be tracing backward to find out when and how that started. That in itself is a story.

[Pale Blue Dot]

18. So?

This makes what the government is doing even worse. In 3 months a non-qualified individual was able to get a job in which he had access to all of our data and top-secret information to the extent that he would become the object of an international manhunt.

Even if one does not think this program is immoral, how could it not be seen as completely incompetent?

[KT2000]

20. My guess -

he was a useful idiot to someone else. Have no idea who though.

[Grassy Knoll]

23. Greenwald. n/t

[Pale Blue Dot]

24. So Greenwald outsmarted the entire US intelligence apparatus?

The one we spent trillions on?

Explain to me how this makes you feel that our intelligence is in competent hands. Sheesh.

[99th_Monkey]

42. Those who value security over liberty will have neither in the end game.

They have been preemptively rendered oblivious to what you are saying.

Competence? Not so much. As long as the "right people" are getting filthy
rich, or getting paid-off, all protected from scrutiny by the blind eye of the M$M.

[Cha]

56. No, Greenwald only thinks he outsmarted everybody.

Matt Ford @HemlockMartinis

Wait, didn't Greenwald explicitly deny Snowden had joined Booz Allen to gather information for leaks? http://goo.gl/rsSUG

Snowden Took Job to Gather Data

NSA leaker Edward Snowden told the South China Morning Post that he took a job with government contractor Booz Allen Hamilton in order to gather evidence of the U.S. government's surveillance programs.

Said Snowden: "My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked. That is why I accepted that position about three months ago."

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/06/24/snowden_took_job_to_gather_data.html

h/t http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/oh-my/#comments

[Narkos]

62. Yeah, Greenwald screwed himself with that tweet

[Cha]

92. What was he thinking?!

TheObamaDiary.com @TheObamaDiary

What makes it all so delicious, it was Greenwald's ego that drove him to tweet that oh so damning tweet..... pic.twitter.com/ZqWWEl25KC



h/t http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/oh-my/#comments

But, that's "the reality".

[sheshe2]

105. Big Ego,

small brain!

The ball of yarn is unraveling rather quickly, I'd say~

Thanks for the tweet, Cha.

[Cha]

107. :( you got that right, she.. More Unraveling Update..

April @ReignOfApril

Hey @lawscribe, check this. Now Greenwald is saying he didn't know Snowden's name until Hong Kong?

Greenwald: I Didn't Even Know Snowden's Name Until He Was In Hong Kong
Glenn Greenwald, one of the reporters to whom Edward Snowden leaked classified NSA documents, said that he did not even know "where Mr. Snowden worked or what his name was until he was in Hong Kong...

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/greenwald-i-didnt-know-what-snowden-did-until

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/chat-away-questions/#comments

[sheshe2]

111. Jayzuuus!

He just gets stupider every time he opens his mouth~

ProSense has two more enlightening topics!

You'll love them if you have not already read them, Cha.

[Cha]

113. I'm trying to read the updates before

I have to take off. So much news so little time. HELP!

[brett_jv]

137. Perhaps he's saying he was 'working with him' since February ...

But did not know his actual name/where he worked ... until Snowden was off US soil?

That's what I get out of it ...

[aquart]

72. Privatization of national security. What could go wrong?

Booz Allen Hamilton blew it.

[dbackjon]

19. So he is a traitor, and should be jailed.

[blkmusclmachine]

21. .

[msongs]

22. more correct title would be "NEWSPAPER says he said....." no proof he actually said that nt

[tridim]

30. Oh irony...

[Iliyah]

27. Isn't it a Chinese newspaper?

Whatever are your leanings on this, Snowden and Greenwald look suspicious. Also Snowden will give other countries information on what NSA has been doing in cyber spying, and that does not bode well especially it if puts Americans that work and reside in these countries at risk.

The more Snowden talks and more he puts himself and Greenwald in jeopardy.

[brett_jv]

36. Not sure if it's exactly a 'Chinese' newspaper ...

SCMP has been around at least since 1979 when I moved there, and it was a British colony at the time. I'm sure the Chinese government now has their tentacles into it's operations, but I'd imagine that the paper in general still reflects it's very 'international' reader base. Since HK went back to the Chinese, 'China' is technically SCMP's country of origin, but it's not some propaganda rag ... it's not Pravda or anything like that

[BeyondGeography]

57. Founded in 1903...a very good paper

My father did a three-year corporate hitch in HK from 76-79 when I was finishing HS. The only way to get 36-hour old baseball scores was via the SCMP. (And, yes, I'll take any excuse to reminisce about those days.)

[brett_jv]

134. We were there 1 year together ...

Did you go to HKIS?

[BeyondGeography]

142. Yup...Class of '77

Spent a lot of time (more than was proper) at The Shack. Noodles for HK$2, and San Migs for whatever...

[brett_jv]

148. The SHACK! Nice!

Yeah, I was a little young for the drinking beers part (7th-9th grade) but used to hang out in there playing their tabletop space invaders game and smoking US$.50/pack marlboro's with my friends. That Buddhist temple down by the McDonalds on the Beach was a fave hangout as well.

HK in the late 70's early 80's was the friggin bomb, esp. for a kid that was just reaching the age where they were allowed some freedom like I was at the time. The awesome, cheap public transportation system (esp. the cheap cabs) and the fact that, aside from housing, EVERYTHING was friggin' cheap there ... made it so you could get anywhere easily, and live it up when you got there. There was NO drinking age (I was drinking a little by the time I left, just not beers at the Shack), NO smoking age ... It was just a really fun place for a 12-14yo. ex-pat to live back then.

I lived in the Repulse Bay Apartments, the huge building just to the NW of the erstwhile Repulse Bay Hotel, (which, sadly, is all torn down now from what I hear, but what a cool spot it was back then ... sitting on the patio out front, it was a total throwback to the early 1900's). Pretty sure my building was being built when you were living there. I had a 17th floor view of the Repulse Bay from my bedroom window, it was sweet.

Also, my folks had a 33ft sailboat we kept moored at the Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club, where we were members. I had my own little sailboat I kept at annex of the Yacht Club that was on Middle Island just to the NW of Repulse Bay.

There was SO MUCH to do there man, so much fun to be had. Riding (sitting, actually) on our skateboards from the top of the 'Peak' down into Aberdeen ... we called it 'Peak Riding'. Going shopping at Stanley Market, going Skim and Boogie Boarding at Big Wave Bay. The snorkeling was pretty decent in a lot of places, and there was tons of great food.

I totally miss those days ... once I got used to it there, I friggin' LOVED it. Didn't wanna come back 'home' when the time came, actually.

I'm still friends w/a couple people from HK ... in fact one of my best buds from HK DJ'd at my wedding a couple years back, and works as a DJ on a radio station in San Bernardino nowadays.

[BeyondGeography]

151. Too cool...I lived in Repulse Bay Towers, right behind the hotel

My dentist had an office at that hotel, which was a gem.

Yup, Hong Kong was a total blast. Part of me has been in permanent mourning for the passage of those days. It was everything you say and, as you well know, safe too. I could be in Wanchai at three in the morning and it was just as safe as the dull suburb where I grew up.

And, of course, Repulse Bay is an island paradise with Manhattan basically waiting for you on the other side of the mountain. No other place quite like it on earth, at least in my experience. I think we were there at the best possible time in that China was still underdeveloped and the air was still clean, at least on the south side of the island. I have been back several times in the past decade and they just keep building (Repulse Bay is filled with monster apartment complexes now; you wonder where they could put them but they find a way), the harbor keeps getting reclaimed and the air quality sucks. That said, I still love the place, always will and much of what was there 35 years ago remains.

[brett_jv]

152. I know the complex you mean, we could see 'em from the back windows of our flat

Permanent mourning ... yup, me too ...

Very sadly, I've never gotten to go back, but man would I love to. I actually dream about being back there pretty regularly.

My folks (world travelers that they are ... they just got back from a month in England/France, their yearly trip) have been back though. They said it was still cool, but that the days of walking into a tailor and having a three-piece suit custom made for you for US$60 are LONG gone.

Basically they said it's not as bad as Tokyo (I've been there too), but more like London prices nowadays (though that was about 10 years back I think). IOW, not even remotely like the absolute MECCA of shopping that it was back when we lived there.

Hey when you were there, was there a chinese vendor named 'Joe' (and his wife) who'd pull up at the end of school day with their little shop/van, painted florescent green, selling candy and such at that little park at the foot of S. Bay Close, right across the street from the Shack?

One of my fondest HK memories was that the guy sold popsicles that looked like big dildo's, and that's what all the kids called them when they'd order, along with the 'flavor' (i.e. "purple&quot they wanted. I sensed that Joe and his wife probably didn't know what the word meant, they just went along with it. I still crack up when I think of them handing these popsicles to all the little kids, saying in their thick cantonese accents, "here you go, two purr-par deeu-dough".

Did they also have the McDonalds lunch program going on, where if you showed up at the cafeteria in the morning and paid for it, you could get QPC's and Big Mac's delivered at lunch time? I remember that they were like HK$3.25 for each burger, which came out to US$.70 ... which even in 1980 was still considerably less than they sold for in the US.

Man, such great times.

[BeyondGeography]

153. LOL...I don't remember the popsicle guy

But the McDonald's lunches, hell yeah! I think it was one day a week when I was there, and I used to live for that day.

We used to wear ourselves out so much at The Shack that I would often take a pak-pai up the hill for like HK$2. There were these shanties at the bottom of the driveway on Repulse Bay Road where the drivers and their family members lived. We'd call their cars "lap sap ches" or garbage cars and they'd call us useless "mou yung" Americans. All in good fun...I think. The profanity in Cantonese, pretty colorful stuff, man. The lifers at HKIS were very good at getting me up to speed on that.

It was a very welcoming school for newbies, probably because of all the turnover. I remember how we used to terrorize new kids at my school in the States but there was none of that there. I did have some problems with some teachers there, mostly because I was an anti-authoritarian craze-o. Played basketball and knocked heads with Coach Wallis big time. I always thought I should have started and he had me first guy off the bench, dammit! The Xmas tournament was really cool with schools from around Asia coming to play us in Hong Kong; I'm sure they still did that when you were there. We'd also play scrimmages against the navy boats when they rolled in and games against local teams like Baptist college. It was a great way to get out of the Repulse Bay bubble.

And then, poof. Gone. I went back 11 years after I left on a surprise business trip and the weird thing about that is I was having intense dreams about Repulse Bay for weeks before. Now I cover the gaming industry so with Macau booming I was able to take a few more trips before the meltdown. Now it's on my dime if I want to go. Took my daughter there last year and will go again when my son is a little older. I really hope you can make it back there one day.

[appleannie1]

29. During the forties he would have been hanged for crap like this. He could have started WWIII.

His intent was not noble in the least.

[temmer]

35. consequential whistleblowing

Did he go to Booz Allen Hamilton to spy for another country? Obviously not, because otherwise he already could have high life in Beijing forever. He said it.

His intention was simply to maximize the effect of whistleblowing. If you want to ram a door, do it right, or leave it.

This intention doesn't make him a traitor to the US. Just another silly attempt to smear him and avoid the real questions.

[jeff47]

38. um.....no.

The problem is he did not have the information to "blow the whistle" until he had the job. Thus he wasn't just a whistleblower. He went digging for something to leak. He sought out the job to find something to leak. That makes it an entirely different legal ball game.

[temmer]

43. you don't know how much he knew when he joined Booz

He worked with the NSA before. The decision to become a whistleblower always precedes the moment of the coming-out.
In the meantime, the determined whistleblower is entitled to consolidate the evidence.

So what?

[jeff47]

69. Because seeking out information is not the same as stumbling across information

He didn't just find a program that was objectionable to him. Instead, he went looking for programs to leak.

The first is a whistleblower. The latter is a spy. Legally.

As in if the statement is true and accurately reported, it means he just admitted to a capital crime instead of just being a whistleblower.

[dreamnightwind]

140. The irony

"Because seeking out information is not the same as stumbling across information

He didn't just find a program that was objectionable to him. Instead, he went looking for programs to leak."

This is the problem I have with the NSA PRISM program. And it looks everywhere.

[temmer]

141. Seeking out information is the daily business of investigative journalists

An investigative journalist has basically two things to do:

- researching
- publishing

Snowden did the first job and left the second to the Guardian.

Every whistleblower has the right and duty to make sure that the scandal he originally stumbled upon is really one, i.e. to confirm it. In oder to do this, he has to seek further information.

If his intention is to inform the public and save it from an imminent danger, nobody will call this spying.

[99th_Monkey]

39. The insinuation is somewhat misleading

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Is this suggesting that Snowden's alledged crime is "premeditated"? If so,
I find that problematic.

What Snowden actually SAID, is that his new job at Booz Allen granted him
"access to lists of machines ..the NSA hacked". So what? He was impressed
by, and drawn to, a position of status and privilege, having "access" to the
"inner workings" of intelligence world. Pretty heady stuff for a 29 y.o.

What Snowden did NOT say is that he was drawn to working at BAllen so
he could later "out" the program, and leak classified data about it. That may
or may not have been the case; but he doesn't actually say that.

These are two very different things, just to be clear. I don't see anything
alarming about what he ACTUALLY SAID, and don't buy into your suggestion
that it means premeditated anything (IF that was your intent that is).
I could read it either way.

[jeff47]

40. Whelp, he just admitted to espionage. Wonder if he's about to drag down Greenwald too?

The statment, assuming it's accurate, is admitting to espionage. He got the job with the express purpose of digging up classified information - he was not someone who 'stumbled across' a program as a whistleblower would.

The next interesting question from this statement is does it implicate Greenwald?

If Greenwald encouraged him to get the job, then being a journalist no longer provides legal cover. If Greenwald was a passive recipient of the leaked information, he'd be protected by the first amendment. But if Greenwald was encouraging Snowden to get the job to find something to leak, that destroys Greenwald's legal protection.

[Ash_F]

45. Headline is innaccurate. /nt

"My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked," he told the Post on June 12. "That is why I accepted that position about three months ago."

That quote can only be equated with the headline if you don't speak English.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

48. The headline is inaccurate, but when I read the passage you attached...

...it reads as if he was attracted to the job for the sole purposes of perusing NSA-hacked machines. That DOES sounds like someone with a motive to reveal NSA inner workings.

[Ash_F]

50. Maybe he chose that job because he was interested in that line of work?

It could read that way too. That is actually more likely because that is how most people choose their careers.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

94. Or, it could be BOTH. I know quite a few people who work for the NSA...

...and their jobs are quite exciting and provocative. I don't think it's farfetched to believe that this guy was lured by the excitement as well as the substantive aspects of the work.

(Full disclosure: I also work for the federal goverment.)

[demgrrrll]

49. That explains a lot to me. I did not understand why a Libertarian would seek Government

employment. But this was not his first government job he has been continuously employed by the Government in one way or another hasn't he? The timing is suspicious. Right before 2014. If I am wrong about his employment history let me know.

[haele]

106. Lots of Libertarians seek Government employment. Witness Ron and Rand Paul...

They like to pretend they're patriots doing "noble work" because they're making so much less than they would if their genius was recognized in the private sector, while all the other government employees are lazy-asses sucking off the taxpayer tit.

Most of them either didn't have the network, the background or the localized opportunities to get any better jobs than a government job. They don't want to admit they're like the other poor slobs out there looking to the government as the employer of last resort in an ever-shrinking job market. And those in the elected political sphere are the worst - most of Libertarians who get elected are either failed businesspeople or a privileged "fortunate son" who's family "worth" won't allow him or her to sit on their assess and live off mom, dad, and the trust fund. Well, sometimes, the "fortunate son" will want to get into politics to get rid of assistance for all those obviously lazy moochers who can't depend on Mummy and Dads to pay for the tutors and the internships that get them into the Ivy League and from there into a comfortable six-figure job with a family friend.

Do you really think if Ron Paul was as successful a private OBGYN as he claims to be, or if li'l Rand were a successful Ophthalmologist, either of them would go into politics? Especially since the expectations of proficiency most private doctors are facing from their patients and from the states are much higher now-a-days than they were back when I was growing up.

Haele

[demgrrrll]

116. Good answer. Ron Paul would have been an awful OBGYN. Neither one seems to have an ounce of com

passion.

[still_one]

51. Then he is admiting an agenda, in addition to spying

[leveymg]

54. Confirms what he's always said - opposition to universal surveillance. He's not admitting spying.

[still_one]

58. Sure he is. Going into a company to steal information

[leveymg]

60. He didn't "steal" information - not theft. He converted classified documents to a private use.

[still_one]

61. That is called corporate espionage at a minimum

Where I work I sign all kind of non disclosure agreements

That is spying, stealing, espionage

[leveymg]

97. Espionage is a legal term with a specific meaning. Corporate spying is a very different concept

and part of the law.

[still_one]

102. It is both corporate espionage, and national security espionage, in my view.

[baldguy]

123. "He converted classified documents to a private use." That's called "stealing".

[DeltaLitProf]

68. Is he admitting to doing more than making general statements to Chinese newspapers?

I don't see that. By definition spying includes providing secret information to other parties. Where do you see the report he has done this?

[still_one]

71. Reporting that we are spying on Hong Kong and the g20

[jeff47]

74. Been in a coma for the last two weeks?

Snowden provided secret information to other parties. For example, it's been reported that he shared his information directly with China and Hong Kong. In addition to providing information to all sorts of other parties via publishing it.

[EC]

53. Isn't that called spying?... n/t

[leveymg]

59. Not necessarily. It's simply consistent with his personal mission to reveal NSA methods.

Whatever you might think of that mission, it's not necessarily acting on behalf of any specific foreign power.

[jeff47]

70. One does not have to work for a foreign power to be a spy. (nt)

[leveymg]

76. Legally, that element is essential to a charge of Espionage.

[jeff47]

80. Nope.

http://research.lawyers.com/glossary/espionage.html

Espionage

: the practice of gathering, transmitting, or losing through gross negligence information relating to the defense of the U.S. with the intent that or with reason to believe that the information will be used to the injury of the U.S. or the advantage of a foreign nation

Underline added.

Injury to the US is sufficient. And the Top Secret labels on the documents provides reason to believe the release of the information will cause injury to the US.

[leveymg]

86. That's even more difficult to prove than acting on behalf of a foreign power. Nobody has ever been

convicted on that ground, AFAIK. For all intents and purposes, Espionage is foreign espionage not leaking.

[jeff47]

89. What element would be difficult to prove?

This new admission provides intent.

The documents themselves are shouting "will cause damage to the US" via the Top Secret labels, and Snowden repeatedly received training in classified document handling so you can't claim he did not know what "Top Secret" means. Which leads to he would have to know leaking the information would cause damage to the US.

[leveymg]

98. Intent to harm the U.S. He'd pretty much have to admit it to establish that, and I don't.

think Snowden is that stupid. I've seen no statement from him that thus far proves that level of avarice against the United States.

[jeff47]

104. Law does not require intent to harm.

Quoting again, with a new underline added:

the practice of gathering, transmitting, or losing through gross negligence information relating to the defense of the U.S. with the intent that or with reason to believe that the information will be used to the injury of the U.S. or the advantage of a foreign nation

Don't need intent to cause harm. Just have to have reason to believe it will cause harm. And the Top Secret labels and training provide ample reason to believe.

[leveymg]

118. Intention is the heart of any mens rea offense. That certainly applies to Espionage.

The fact that the documents were marked as T/S only proves that he knowingly released classified materials - not that he knew that harm to the US would result. Classification markings go to prove a charge other than Espionage.

You have to prove either: 1) acting on behalf of a foreign power; or 2), and more difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, intent to create harm to the US. Neither has in fact been proven.

Try again.

[jeff47]

145. So you're back to ignoring the legal definition again?

Good to know that laws are what you think they are, instead of what's actually written down.

[still_one]

73. Have you heard of no disclosure agreements?

[leveymg]

77. That's violation of a contractual agreement, not Espionage.

Release of classified docs is not, in itself, Espionage. It has to be done with the purpose of aiding a foreign power. Sorry to disappoint you.

[still_one]

103. Do you know he did not receive compensation by an outside party for this? We will see in the course

Of time how this breaks down, but it will be much simpler than "it depends how one defines the word if"

Sorry to disappoint you but do you really assume they filed charges against him without evidence to back it up?

[Cha]

67. Yep.. "Snowden is a Spy"..

That's a spy. Period. True, he did not do the usual spy thing of selling the information. Lots of spies haven't been in it for the money. Start with Philby and his circle and go on from there. It seems quite obvious from his own words that Snowden is a sort of post-ideological Philby. If he's committed to an -ism, it's probably a vague kind of techno-post-nation-ism in which the nation state is perforce a tyrannical entity and must therefor become a thing of obsolesence. That, along with a healthy dose of me-ism.

A jerk. But more importantly, a run-of-the-mill lawbreaker. The "whistleblower" case was always a little bit dodgy. Whistleblowers expose criminal acts. He just didn't like his country's policy. That's fine. Millions agree with him. But we can't live in a world where citizens are allowed to do what he's done without repercussion.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/24/snowden-is-a-spy.html

h/t http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/snowden-is-a-spy/

Michael Cohen @speechboy71

So if you decide in advance to break the law . . . you're definitely not a whistleblower:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/exclusive-snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa …

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/24/oh-my/#_=1372103128468&id=twitter-widget-47&lang=en&partner=null&screen_name=amk4obama&show_count=false&show_screen_name=false&size=m

[leveymg]

79. You're using the term "spy" too loosely. See my comments immediately above.

[treestar]

127. So has everyone who calls the metadata "spying on us."

I've seen rants about the government spying on all of us which is ridiculous. But now Ed's in the microscope, we get picky about accuracy for the term.

[brett_jv]

138. Exactly ...

Well-said ...

[Marrah_G]

93. Only in the same sense that animal rights groups spy on factory farms.

[carla]

99. So, Marrah_G,

are you upset that spies got spied on? I don't much care for spying, lying, murdering and war. This is what spies enable governments to do. So they got punk'd...so how is this a bad thing?

[Marrah_G]

100. I am very glad that those doing the spying got spied on.

I am also very glad that it's been brought to the attention of the American public.

[shawn703]

96. I think this can be filed under "no shit"

[MjolnirTime]

101. That is why he is a traitor. He got the job purposefully to steal information.

[askeptic]

109. Seems to me he used NSA's Methods to a "T" - is that what everyone's mad about?

He kept his intentions secret, took possession of information not belonging to him, and then blabbed about it (just not to the DOD to initiate a drone assassination (legal?) or via backdoor to law enforcement so they can go get some legal evidence).

The only reason for the secrecy about the data sweeping and mining of most folks on the planet is that they know it's probably illegal and it is definitely unethical. Why hide it it if everything about it is perfectly OK?

So it seems to me folks at least should be aware, since a person who believes they are in a private setting says and does things differently than when they are in a public setting.

It is one thing not to have an expectation of privacy in public but it seems perfectly reasonable to expect you won't be followed around.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

117. Spying on the Spy Masters

Thats just one more reason this who TIA program is bad for our health (gov & we the people) it's unmanageable, waste of time & money, and finally ILLEGAL.

[baldguy]

122. Tell me again how Snowden is a hero, and this isn't espionage.

[Major Hogwash]

124. Rule #1 of spying on America: Don't give interviews bragging about it!!!

I guess we won't need to wonder what his agenda was anymore.

[GeorgeGist]

144. Well then ...

by your own rule, he couldn't be spying on America.

[Major Hogwash]

146. He broked the rulez.

"Two men enter, one man leaves.
Break a deal, spin the wheel."

Snowden gave this interview to the Hong Kong newspaper on June 12th, two weeks ago.
But, the Hong Kong newspaper held on to it for 2 weeks.

They knew what his agenda was on June 12th!

[moondust]

129. So a saboteur from the outset.

He hadn't worked for the NSA before but nevertheless he was sure that what was going on there was so wrong that he was determined to singlehandedly fix it by covertly infiltrating the place and doing whatever he could to undermine it?

[brett_jv]

139. I've said from the beginning that I suspect he's in the employ of some very powerful people

Who are out to take down Obama. This flood of 'scandals' in recent weeks is too 'convenient' for the likes of KKKarl for my liking. Everytime Snowden has opened his mouth, it's made me more and more certain, personally.

Yes, I know it's tin-foil, but ... I wouldn't be surprised.

[winter is coming]

130. Anybody know if the South China Morning Post is a reliable newspaper, as opposed to fishwrap?

Or whether the reporter who took the interview is a journalist instead of a Judith Miller? Seems a bit odd that Snowden would have openly admitted something that casts him in such a poor light.

[davidpdx]

150. No, no, we can't talk about intent.

His pure "white as snow" intentions are proof he is a hero and that we should thank him for taking a job under a false pretense to leak information.