US to hike H1B visas, merit will count for green cards
Source: One India
There will be a huge increase in H1B visa quota and merit will play a major part in issuing of green card in the US. This mixed bag news will come by tomorrow and it is being laced with high payout for Indian IT companies.
According to Senate aides, the number of H1B visas will go up from 85,000 to 205,000 and these will be primarily for the college-educated foreigners in science, technology, engineering and mathematics fields.
The changes in green card rules will now give emphasis to skill and education. Currently, majority of green cards are issued based on family ties to US citizens -only about 16 percent are granted based on skills and their possible contributions to the economy. But the changes would increase that number to nearly 50 percent.
Read more: http://news.oneindia.in/2013/04/17/us-hike-h1b-visas-merit-will-count-for-green-cards-1195745.html
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Skittles
(153,160 posts)
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)I am three years away from full retirement. At least I'll be able to work part time in the auto industry even after I retire. As I (and my employers learned) these so-called educated folks are for the most part frauds. And thankfully they haven't gotten a foot in the industry. Even GM, who used to employ Indian call centers for Global Connect switched to Brazil, not yet back here, but closer.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)seem to know less than the average American high school tech nerd you know something is up
Arkana
(24,347 posts)It affects people who've been here for several years and have built lives and relationships, not just some jackass sitting in a call center in Bangalore who barely speaks English. I work for a software company with a few people in this situation and I can tell you it's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you are making it out to be. These people pay taxes and are honest citizens with lives in this country.
Have you or any of the other "THROW ALL DEM DURN FURRINERS OUT" people ever considered that?
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)Paul E Ester
(952 posts)This not about fairness.
Where is fairness for the American born worker, who studied hard and is carrying college debt. vs. a worker from India with years of experience who will work for pennies on the dollar.
When we had unions these people were called SCABS.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)Paul E Ester
(952 posts)
Occulus
(20,599 posts)is that you don't much care for American workers who already CAN do the jobs, always COULD do the jobs, and don't HAVE jobs because of the people you're stupidly defending.
Or that you just don't want to pay those American workers what they're really worth.
You didn't exactly cover yourself in glory there, regardless.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)whenever a company decides to outsource, I'd say you're talking out of your ass.
This has nothing to do with my attitude toward American workers and everything to do with not punishing people who are desperately trying to build lives here.
I have no problem with legislation that hurts companies who outsource--but punishing the maybe 100,000 H-1B visa applicants who've been here half their lives because you somehow "KNOW" there's an American who can do their job is stupid and short-sighted. Woohoo, let's fire all the H-1B college professors because REAL Americans should get their jobs!
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)The problem is that we try to streamline these programs that takes away workers rights and only encourages those that want to be here temporarily to get money for their nest egg back home where they live on one 10th of the cost of living that Americans do here. Now for those that want to stay here a long time and invest in part of the American experience, these programs shouldn't be expanded, but a pathway to citizenship here should be provided and put an emphasis on streamlining that process and not make it a bureaucratic mess that it is currently (that I would argue is likely by design that way).
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)It's a temporary visa and the people who get them go home(6 years max). They also do not get to bring their families, they have to apply for them under a different visa program. The H1-B program exploits everyone involved and should be abolished. It's no surprise the biggest tech corporations, run by American Oligarchs are the biggest proponents of these programs.
The H1-B's raison d'etre is that American workers are not educated enough, hard working enough, or available enough for these jobs. That is complete bullshit.
The H1-B workers are far from desperate, they are part of the growing, thriving educated Indian middle class that is on the rise.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)already here. Wrong thread maybe?
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)If people somehow end up spending "half their lives" here on H1B visas, they may be abusing the visas, because they shouldn't be staying here for more than 5 years.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And if they want to stay here longer, they should become citizens.
It is dangerous to our concept of democratic government that we have so many people in our country who have no stake in our democracy. That is becoming a problem. And it is especially serious when so many of our best intellectuals do not participate as citizens in our democratic process.
If you are a foreign national and want to live here for a long time, consider becoming a citizen.
I know how hard that can be. I've been in that position and decided I wanted to come back because this is my home.
markiv
(1,489 posts)people never do that, unless they are really on the correct side of an issue
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)No such thing, I know personally
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Life as an immigrant? I know a lot. Have you ever been an immigrant? Do you know what it is to deal with the numbers and types of visas a government will issue or completely remove to determine your life? I'm guessing that you don't.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)I HELPED HER WITH THE PAPERWORK - YOUR GUESSES ARE COMPLETELY WRONG
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Do I have zero clue when it comes to thinking it's good that your mom got green card?
Skittles
(153,160 posts)YOU ARE WRONG
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Did you just get confused about which anti-foreigner thing you were railing against?
Skittles
(153,160 posts)fucking DONE here - I DETEST offshore whores
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)they are an Indian Outsourcing company, and the largest user of H-1b visas. They seem to be of the mistaken impression, that H-1b visas are used for outsourcing. You'd better contact them, and straighten them out.
Visa Shortage a Concern for Infosys
As we reported at the beginning of this month, India’s technology outsourcing firms are likely to face higher costs in the U.S. because of a shortage in the availability of skilled-worker visas, forcing them to hire more-costly American workers rather than rely on Indian expatriates.
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/04/12/visa-shortage-a-concern-for-infosys/
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)"As we reported at the beginning of this month, India’s technology outsourcing firms are likely to face higher costs in the U.S. because of a shortage in the availability of skilled-worker visas, forcing them to hire more-costly American workers rather than rely on Indian expatriates."
markiv
(1,489 posts)ANY trouble finding those Americans
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)It's all about the cheapest labor and that article (from India, no less) makes it crystal clear.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)OhioChick
(23,218 posts)She's DEAD now since she lost her health insurance.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)that's pretty much the ratio I see
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)he asked, "Why didn't you call the primary?" "I said, I did, they are offshore and...." - the guy said NEVER MIND, I UNDERSTAND!!! F***. 
markiv
(1,489 posts)by none other than the outsourcers and the wall street journal themselves
Visa Shortage a Concern for Infosys
As we reported at the beginning of this month, India’s technology outsourcing firms are likely to face higher costs in the U.S. because of a shortage in the availability of skilled-worker visas, forcing them to hire more-costly American workers rather than rely on Indian expatriates.
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/04/12/visa-shortage-a-concern-for-infosys/
dkf
(37,305 posts)Instead we have to import expertise. How depressing.
Getting an education here becomes more and more expensive, student loans are horrendous,
tell me again why I should support this excrescence of a government.
No wonder I am told that Social Security must be cut in order to provide for the next generation - the government is just rearranging the deck chairs for them.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)So, now they are competing with our children who must go into massive debt to get an education.
It continually amazes me how Americans can so easily sell out their own citizens for profit.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)in the US for 100 years after its foundation, the fact that we don't treat our own citizens well really shouldn't amaze anyone.
We have a bad track record when it comes to human and civil rights.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)the means to pay off the debt they took on to get an "education".
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)It took my brother-in-law, an IT professional, more than 5 years to find an IT job that would pay him enough to survive on. Why? Because corporations don't want to hire Americans and pay them decent wages or benefits.
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9237459/Computer_science_enrollments_soared_last_year_rising_30_
So there goes that "theory" of lack of qualified American workers.
It's all about slave labor as you implied.
markiv
(1,489 posts)where in this article, do you see a shortage of educated American workers
Visa Shortage a Concern for Infosys
As we reported at the beginning of this month, India’s technology outsourcing firms are likely to face higher costs in the U.S. because of a shortage in the availability of skilled-worker visas, forcing them to hire more-costly American workers rather than rely on Indian expatriates
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/04/12/visa-shortage-a-concern-for-infosys/
dkf
(37,305 posts)
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)
JCMach1
(27,556 posts)why am I not shocked?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)The talent pool should include the world.
Why should someone who is Asian or from India be excluded just because of who they are?
This keeping out is so wrong.
To quote the legendary Rev. Jesse Jackson "The Rainbow Connection". (with kudos to Kermit too for that matter). We are the melting pot here. That is what makes America, America.
I for one would hire without bias.
The best workers are always the ones who have fire in their belly.
And this should come after the 11million who are already here get citizenship.
Or at the same time.
It should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Just say no to negativity and yes to positivity.
BTW,one of my doctors are from India. I trust him with my life.
The world is US, and We are the world. One can't bottle up and be isolationists
(though what's his name,Pat Buchanan would love it)
mac56
(17,566 posts)Not because of "who they are."
Because there are qualified Americans who deserve a shot because of who THEY are.
Add on edit: Citing Kermit the Frog?! Really?!
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I'm surprised to learn that none of your ancestors were immigrants. Shit, I'm surprised that you manage to exist outside of rest of the world where human migration has been responsible for getting people most places.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)But we do have a right to set limits on immigration to this country, particularly when we have large- scale unemployment here, and record number of people on food stamps. Hell, some places are asking for a college degree to work at McDonalds! This is insane.
Every standard of living is going down in this country. We don't have to continue racing to the bottom. These H1B visas are gift only to the corporations and to the politicians who pocket money from the lobbyists who advocate for these visa increases. Don't be fooled otherwise.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)Including the trade in labor through offshoring should also be considered.
Fair Trade not Free Trade.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)for next-to-nothing.
These visas give preferences to people who come and then feel haughty and superior because after all they are better than Americans because, they are told, they are here to do jobs Americans cannot do.
No. That is a lie. They have been given tremendous opportunities in the countries they came from, opportunities we do not give our children here. And that is why they are sought for these jobs.
We need to take care of our children first. Why? Because it is our responsibility. We are not responsible for creating jobs for kids from China or India or where these special visa entrants come from.
We are responsible for the children born in the US.
I am not opposed to immigration or to immigrants. Like most Americans, my ancestors were immigrants. There are lots of immigrants in my family.
But first-come-first-serve.
We are all equal. The people I have known who came on these visas felt they were better than other Americans. They did not come with a belief in equality. And that belief in equality is fundamental to our American values. I oppose these special visas.
First-come-first-serve.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I don't have any children, and I'll be damned if I care more about a stranger's child in the US than I do about a stranger's child in another country.
You know, if you actually felt that we were all equal, there would be no visas, and there would be no borders which could concern you. You can't on the one hand say "we are all equal" and on the other say "x is of greater importance than y."
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... with them as well? HUH?
Damnit! The world is just not an equal place, and we have to deal with our costs of living being higher than others. If we want an equal "quality" of life, then DAMMIT, we need to have more money to pay the higher bills! If you think that everyone should be paid equally on the global stage, then why don't you argue that our CEOs should also be paid equally to CEOs of other foreign companies. They don't have to compete with those CEOs for their jobs, because THEY make the rules and force US to compete, even though we are doing most of the work that makes their companies more productive and lets them make more profits.
You should FIRST demand that our students have more of an equal opportunity for education that the rest of the world has, and our families have more equal access to health care that the rest of the world has before you ask us to sacrifice our jobs for others!
Indians get their bachelor's degrees subsidized by their government. If they pay for any school themselves it is more figuring out whether they will get a cheaper graduate degree in India, or pay a bit more and pay for a graduate degree here and then work here for a while afterward (where hardly any of our kids can afford to pay for both an undergrad and graduate degree) and be on an even playing field with them.
You should be ranting about the TPP and other of these corporatist so-called "free trade" agreements that are destroying both our lives and other people's around the world as well as the race to the bottom screws all of us except those at the top.
Now maybe, just maybe, suddenly our property and the value of our currency and other property at some point will collapse when none of us is working any more and we will all have the same low cost of living everyone else has.
But you know when that will happen? Only when these [h1]UNAMERICAN[/h1] 1% jerks that control our companies and our government now have moved all of their money off shore at today's currency rates so that they can laugh at us after our economy has collapsed when their wealth is worth so much more then than ours is now. That's when it will happen, and then we will have a world f'ing RIPE for a French style revolution when people have nothing else left to lose, complete with guillotines and the rest of that atmosphere of kind of revolt.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)There would be no problem with immigrants lowering wages if we had fair wages for all. Of course everyone should have healthcare. Healthcare is a human right. I'd say the same goes for education, even though I went to two private schools for my bachelor's and master's.
Do you really think that people in India who are willing to move half way around the world for what is - admittedly, by so many people here - a job that doesn't pay what it should are living some kind of fantastic life? Oh, why on earth would they leave their crystal palace of a country? I guess it must be to steal from Americans for the lulz. India is poor. It's really poor. It's not like West Virginia poor, but poor like... oh, I don't know... fucking India.
Should we have universal healthcare? Yes. We don't have it... hmm... blame the immigrants!! We should have more affordable and accessible higher education... blame the immigrants!!
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)I think Many people might! THAT is a comparable situation to what they are being offered to come here.
You did hear me that they have a standard of living an order of magnitude less than we do here. If we could work in a place temporarily that was 10 times more expensive and live very frugally and make 4-5 times (or more) as much as we made here, and we get a free college education to prepare for this, wouldn't you do that? The problem is that we and our families have to permanently live at this cost of living. THEY DON'T!!! This is an investment for them.
And the more of them that get experience working over here and move back, that makes Bangalore that much bigger a center for high tech development for outsourcing, which pushes Silicon Valley off of its earlier perch that much more. We TRAIN their workers to build THEIR economy! Not ours! Not to mention as many others in this thread have mentioned, much of the money they make over here gets sent back to be invested where their families live, etc. instead of being spent in our economy, which reduces our economic activity that much more than if those salaries were to go to American workers instead.
I've been working at some companies that tried to outsource tech support to India, and cut back on domestic hires here there. They found out the hard way that those working here did the jobs of more workers here, since just about all call issues got escalated back to them instead of being handled at the source, and customer satisfaction went down. They ultimately moved away from doing this, partially because as a smaller company the management had more ethics than some of the bigger companies here do. They realized they made a mistake ethically as well as practically.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I'm sure many people would much rather have a permanent job than a temporary one, compete fairly in an open job market, live near their families, and actively participate in local civic and cultural life than simply be a temporary worker.
What is this our/their you keep going on about? I don't feel that way. I don't want to be part of anyone's us and them. Personally, as someone living in a foreign country on a temporary visa, if I were going to choose a side in this us/them, I'd be with what is to you "them." I think I probably have a lot more in common with the person trying to get an H1B visa for a job in the US than I do with someone in the US who wants to limit immigration.
Further, do you not recognize the painful and insulting tone you take when bringing up one's standard of living in relation to wages? It wasn't so far back in US history when it was pretty common to say it's ok to pay "them" less, because "they" don't expect the same standard of living, and can live on a lot less.
Seriously, if India is so great, please go move there. With your English skills, I bet you could get one of those really great call center jobs, which of course is a dream and not the soul-destroying activity done to just make ends meet that most people who do the job would have you believe. Please, look into it. Then, if you are able to get a temporary job, see what it feels like to be kicked out of the country that has been your home, where most of your friends live, and where you feel like you're part of a community, all because a government that you pay taxes to but do not get to vote for has determined that you have to leave your home in order to satisfy misguided xenophobic outrage cultured in those who do get to vote for that government by accident of birth.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... not just come here temporarily to make a buck (and help someone wealthy person save bucks paying less salaries to someone else that's more of a committed citizen to this society.
When did I ever say I want to LIMIT immigration. That is NOT the topic here. The real problem is that our system is DESIGNED now to severely limit REAL immigration, but to encourage this kind of "false" indentured servant immigration that lets employers exploit cheap labor that is temporary, pushes dollars overseas, and builds expertise that goes overseas instead of stays here.
I myself would like to have more of a permanent job like I used to have instead of contract jobs which are now becoming the norm in this market without benefits, commitments, etc. with the high unemployment we have now with too much cheap labor that is in this sector here compared to what our cost of living is.
How am I insulting others talking about cost of living. That is REALITY here. You need to deal with reality when you come here and insult other Americans here as if they should just be willing to work for a 10th of what we made earlier because we should be able to compete globally on what salary we make, but NOT globally on what costs of living we have to deal with, and for that matter the costs of education, health care and other things that are thrown uniquely at us here.
I want to live here, even though I was born elsewhere, albeit by American citizens, and lived a good portion of my younger life overseas as well. The reality is that no other country would pay us $400-$500k to be comparable to what situation they have. Many of them could stay in India and make less than coming over here temporarily and still live a decent life if they are skilled technically as engineers. Many basically are all debating whether they want to get a post graduate degree here in a tech field or there. But they are pretty much guaranteed that their jobs won't ge "outsourced" there to other people coming to work at lower wages in their country, and have the option to make that much more if they come over here. So a high tech degree, either regular (which costs them nothing) or a post graduate is a decent investment for them, compared to an American kid here who has to decide whether they want to take the risk of getting in to huge debt training for a field where a big chunk of the jobs are either being shipped offshore or being shipped "inshore" to H-1B visa workers. Many of them choose to avoid this profession, which is the opposite of what it was when Silicon Valley was starting to boom in the late 70's/early 80's, when I got out of school. Now people will pick careers that are inherently harder to offshore like being a doctor or a lawyer, etc. if they want to get back what they are paying for in terms of huge college tuition in today's marketplace.
I think most foreign citizens, whether they be Indians coming here with H-1B visas, or even more so undocumented workers coming here to work cheap jobs either illegally or through H2B visas would rather have a means to live and work decently in their own countries, which oligarchs here and there prevent from happening with our trade policies now that serve the oligarchs. There are many that do want to truly come here and become American citizens and I welcome them here with open arms. Anyone who knows me personally knows that if anything I'm at the opposite scale of the xenophobes. Most of my closest friends are from other countries, and I know many of their stories trying to become permanent citizens here taking over a decade, and even helped one or two of them get jobs here while they were trying to build that path towards citizenship. THAT is the tradition of this country from its founding, and THAT is what most people feel is the American dream. Not the exploitative GARBAGE systems like H-1B that you seem to worship here that just tries to reward those at the top wanting to exploit the differences of cost of living between our societies.
Cost of living differences doesn't necessarily reflect living standard differences. I do want everyone to be able to live at a living wage everywhere. I'll work hard to promote that. But the reality is that someone in India might be able to live at a very decent living wage paying only $200 a month in rent, where here it would be impossible to do that in most areas and out STANDARD of living working at a living wage over there would be poverty here.
And representation is another reason why the oligarchs like H-1B visa programs. It lets them have more of their work force be here without rights of citizenship (to vote, be a part of a union, have the freedom to move to other jobs, etc.). That also serves their purposes more than helping people who truly want to become IMMIGRANTS here and not just temporary laborers here to make a buck come here.
Most people that come here on H-1B programs have NOT been "kicked out" of their country, but do so by choice to take advantage of getting a bit more money here temporarily to build up their savings back there. Many of them just want the financial gain by a temporary stay here, and want still to be citizens of their native country. That's fine, but don't let them come here temporarily to just make a buck. Either they work to make sure that they can rise up the ladder and make a decent living in India and make it a better place, or if they want to really come here and live the American dream, come here with the idea of moving here and becoming a citizen, not just making a few bucks here working for a few years. And like I said, I'd like to ENCOURAGE the latter, which the oligarchs and who they own in government today DO NOT encourage now.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Did you miss the part in the OP about proposed changes to green card rules, where having skills requiring education, and getting an H1B would now more likely lead to getting a green card?
People do not get these jobs because it's easy, or just to make a buck and leave. People all over the world are just trying to do what's best for them, and having to temporarily move to another country on a visa is far from easy.
I would love it if the US had an actual first-world standard of living and invested in basic human rights and infrastructure, but it doesn't. If it did, and I could get paid in the US, I would live there, but it doesn't, and I can't, so I don't. Right now, I'm on a contract in Switzerland with an incredibly high standard of living. I've been trying to save some money, because if I can't get another job tied to a visa in Europe, I'll have to go back to the US. I guess you think that's wrong of me, huh? I should just spend all of my pay here and then be fucked when I'm kicked out. I mean, it sure was cheaper last year living in my brother's basement, using a car borrowed from my father, and working overtime at unskilled labour jobs (when I could get them) for $8/hour than actually having free time in Switzerland where everything is far more expensive.
What is someone's country? No, people coming to the US haven't been kicked out of one country, but after they make a life for themselves in the US, they may well be kicked out of their home and their new country.
Also, please stop trying to compare apples to oranges. The education system in India is nothing like that in the US. I'm not saying it's terrible, but higher education, at least until the master's level, is something the US does very well. It must have been about 11 or 12 years ago that I worked at a job with an Indian intern. He was studying at a small college in Michigan to be a chemist. I guess he was just too stupid to know that he could have been living the gravy life back in India where money grows on trees, and the standard of living is so incredibly high.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)The rules for decades that those hiring H-1B jobs need to pay the "prevailing wage" of American citizens have been gamed by "body shops" who only hire H-1B's and therefore claim they can just pay all of their employees the same *LOWER* rate because they aren't measuring it against permanent American citizen employee salaries, and don't hire out their employees as "contractors" but as a "contracting service" to hide what they are paying the employees from being on the books and used in this capacity.
There will be more games to work around these green card rules. The priority should be FIRST to not even TALK about changing the H-1B Visa quotas, but to fix the broken immigration system that helps expedite foreigner's applications to become citizens here and to get green cards so that they can be more on an even playing field and help those who want to become real IMMIGRANTS and not just temp workers here.
I never said that people working temporary jobs around the world are facing "easy" situations. Many of them do have it tough. And they are being used by the system just as much as we are. And we should be on an international basis, ESPECIALLY with our screwy trade agreements like the even worse TPP coming up, be looking to help fix some of these situations instead of making it worse. But THERE is where the congress needs to make their situations better, not making their situations better by expanding a program that screws Americans more to offer them jobs so that those at the top can save more bucks in their race to the bottom.
YOU are insulting Indians if you are saying their free education system (through a bachelor's degree) is worse than that of the U.S.'s free education system (which only provides you a high school diploma). Our higher education system has been better for a long time in terms of quality of education IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT! Much like our health care system (IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT!) If you want to say it is something that "we do well", you have to factor in if the average American can take advantage of it without being put in to huge debt. Now student debt is replacing consumer debt as the biggest amount of debt in our country too, which is a bad sign in this area.
If Americans could get a free bachelor's degree here in our country and go some place like Switzerland to get their graduate degree, be guaranteed at least a reasonable tech job here without that, and by getting a graduate degree in Switzerland be able to work temporarily there to make more money to build some savings and come back here, then yes, a lot of Americans would be better off. But that reality doesn't work for most of us. And if it was done on the same scale, citizens in Switzerland would be up in arms about people like you coming in to take their jobs too and rattling their government's cages to change the rules as well.
Not everyone in India is living well. Many don't have the 'caste' or other privileges there to get in to a good school and avoid living in areas where they have to farm to make a living. But those that do have tech degrees do have good choices there. And those are the people that are coming here to get graduate degrees and to get H-1B Visas subsequently. Not the poor starving Indians. We have to make sure our own people are taken care of first and not allow the 1% to take all of our wealth, which they are doing with programs like H-1B before we can be serious players in helping other people around the world with their situations. That's probably part of the reasons for H-1B too, and so many other laws in this country that keep blowing up the middle class. They WANT to disempower us so that we have to worry more about the survival layer of Maslow's pyramid instead of self actualizing and working towards helping other's situations around the world also be better too.
Now pardon me, as I need to take off for the rest of the day to do real work here, and not interrupt it posting on boards like this.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)wanting to come here. But, it is up to the people, especially the skilled and talented people of India to change their country and make it a better place. They won't do that living here.
We have the vote here by accident of birth.
Indian citizens have the vote in India by accident of birth.
We vote here. They should vote there.
At this time, we do not need additional workers in the US. Our unemployment rate is far too high. In particular, older people and students just out of college cannot find jobs. Our tax revenues from income tax are, as a result, too low.
H1-B visas lower pay, take jobs from Americans, raise our unemployment rate, lower our tax revenues and do nothing to solve our problems.
And on top of that, the people on H1-B visas have no civic responsibility or loyalty to our country.
No more H1-B visas. They are detrimental to our country.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I had to move back to the US for a few months last year. I worked an average of about 60 hours a week, for eight dollars an hour. I worked with kids who just thought their jobs were so shitty... but they weren't working them in their mid-30's with a PhD. I knew that we had it good. The US job market is fucked, but it's not fucked because of a few thousand immigrants on one certain type of visa. It's fucked because the people who run the economy don't give a shit about their workers, no matter where they're from.
On my current visa, limited in time and tied to a specific gig, I'd be happy to have any foreigner who'd like come to the US and "take my job" that I had... oh, but they can't, because it was seasonal.
I vote in every US election, but nothing's going to change so long as people get irate and distracted by inconsequential things like this while letting the real things slide.
markiv
(1,489 posts)kinda says it all
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Nationalism is a disease that brings fear, hatred, and death in its wake.
markiv
(1,489 posts)for a pro- h-1b person
i'll give you that
pampango
(24,692 posts)The racist movement is comprised of white supremacy groups such as the KKK, neoNazi groups such as the National Alliance and Skinheads groups such as the Hammerskin Nation. The groups comprising this movement are interested in preserving or restoring what they perceive as the appropriate and natural racial and cultural hierarchy, by enforcing social and political control over non-Aryans/nonwhites such as African Americans, Jews, and various immigrant communities. Therefore, their ideological foundations are based mainly on ideas of racism, segregation, xenophobia, and nativism (rejection of foreign norms and practices).
The antifederalist rationale is multifaceted, and includes the beliefs that the American political system and its proxies were hijacked by external forces interested in promoting a “New World Order” (NWO) in which the United States will be absorbed into the United Nations or another version of global government.
Lastly, the fundamentalist stream, which includes mainly Christian Identity groups such as the Aryan Nations, fuse religious fundamentalism with traditional white supremacy and racial tendencies, thus promoting ideas of nativism, exclusionism, and racial superiority through a unique interpretation of religious texts that focuses on division of humanity according to primordial attributes. More specifically, these groups maintain that a correct interpretation of the holy texts reveals that it is not the people of Israel but the Anglo-Saxons who are the chosen people and therefore assert their natural superior status.
If there is one ideological doctrine about which there is almost full consensus regarding its importance for understanding the far-right worldview, it is that of nationalism. Historically, the literature on nationalism has taken diverse directions and is extremely rich, but in its varying guises it usually refers to the association between ethnic, cultural and/or linguistic identity and political expression, or more simply put, the convergence of a cultural framework with a political entity.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf
In response to your post: Nationalism is a disease that brings fear, hatred, and death in its wake. Europe is a good example of that. It has enjoyed 70 years of peace by deemphasizing the nationalism that brought war to the continent on a consistent basis. Opening borders to each other has caused a decline in nationalism there and a long period of peace.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)You would quickly find out that you have to have a visa.
If we are all equal and need no visas, do we need nation states? What happens to the idea of democracy? Who gets to decide what the rules are in a specific geographic area? Do citizenship and national identity mean anything to you?
It is not a matter of equality. It is a matter of equal protection before the law. And what or who determines the law in a particular geographic area? In a democracy, it is the citizens of that area. In our country it is we Americans who guarantee to each other equal protection of the law. We do not guarantee equal protection of our law to people in other countries. And while people are here from other countries, we reserve the right to deport them under the laws that we as a democracy decide.
We do not need this H1-B visas at this time of high unemployment. Therefore, we should deport the people who are here on temporary visas of that sort or ask them to apply for citizenship. We should give priority and preference to American citizens. I assure you that Greece, and Bangla Desh and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and Great Britain and Mexico and Venezuela give priority and preference to their citizens. That's the way it is, and that is as it should be.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)You and I have both been posting here for years, usually at odds with one another. I guess in that time, you've never noticed what countries I've been living in.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that. I lived in other countries on visas. I did not get a special visa because my boss wanted to hire me at an especially low rate for a period of time that he determined. And I did not live in another country that had high unemployment.
This period of high unemployment is not the time to issue H1-B visas. We should do that when we need more workers, when we have a shortage of workers.
The H1-B visa bill looks like a pay-off to corporations -- once again. And I do not like that. Let's make sure that we have enough jobs for American citizens before we hire foreign nationals on H1-B visas. And I believe that all visas should give visa-holders the opportunity for citizenship in the U.S.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I don't think citizenship should ever play a role in where someone lives or works. Giving preference based on that is cruel and arbitrary. Wherever you've lived, and on whatever type of visa, I can only assume it was because you were making the choices in your life that seemed best to you. I think more people should have more choices, as flawed as their options may be.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)and provide the police and fire protection, government services, roads, etc. that these corporations use. And the corporations not only don't contribute their fair share of taxes, many of them also find sneaky ways to get tax refunds from the government.
As I see it, since we American taxpayers are making it possible for them to operate here, they owe us first shot at the jobs here. If not, let them get out and stay out.
Which corporation is paying you to post here?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Who is "us"? You can speak for yourself, but not for me.
No one is paying me to post here. Do you know anyone that would? That would be great... but I bet they'd just give the job to some sneaky scab foreigner. Damn.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I could swear you sound like a corporate shill of one sort or another.
Obviously you don't give a shit about your fellow American citizens who pay their taxes for the roads, schools, government protection. Maybe you would enjoy being a "world citizen" in some other country, since you have such contempt for American citizens.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)That's why I post here, and that's why I pay very close attention to US politics. I'm a US citizen by an accident of birth, but with that comes a responsibility (as I see it) to be involved in our democracy. I take that very seriously.
Do I care more about any old American than I do about any old person from any other country? FUCK NO. If I did, I would feel like there was something seriously fucking wrong with me. I care about Americans because I care about people.
I would very much like to be a "world citizen" if it were possible to do so, but unfortunately, governments are run by people, and people are generally terrible, so I don't think it's going to happen.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)it's people I can't stand" types.
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)In 2009, Indians alone sent 30 billion (Yes, that's a B) in remittances home. Wonder how much they're sending at this point that isn't being pumped into the US economy?
"In India, these decisions have raised hackles. India's IT sector is
seen as a source of national pride - an area where Indians see
themselves as competing successfully on the global scene. Moreover,
the millions of Indians living overseas send back more than $30
billion a year in remittances, making up 3 per cent of the country's
GDP, according to estimates by the International Labor Organization."
http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/07bpo-worries-grow-about-obamas-outsourcing-policies.htm
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Sorry? You understand that people getting H1B visas are getting them to work - you know, at a job - in the US, right? You know that when people legally work at a job in the US they pay taxes, right?
djean111
(14,255 posts)Let's see the United States give free tuition like India does.
Only THEN is it a level playing field.
But - corporations and banks in the United States make too much money from tuition and student loans to give our citizens an even chance.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)If people were as vocal about such good things as they are about their irrational fear-based hatred of others, we might have a chance of actually making the world a better place.
markiv
(1,489 posts)because until then, all you're argueming for is plunging our own kids into debt while you give the jobs they were going to pay the debt back with to someone who got their tuition for free
you're really blaming kids for failure to dictate tuition policies to our nation's leaders?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)PLEASE tell me you at least like puppies
i'm trying to work with you here
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I care a lot about kids too, but I don't care more about one kid than another because of where they were born or who their parents were (ok, I do care more about my family's and friends' kids). If we're going to start drawing lines about us/our vs. them/their, there are a lot of things I'd associate myself with before country.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)Let's eliminate the H1-B program and replace it with this: when a company wants to hire a foreign technical person, they have to swear on their founder's grave that the company would collapse and civilization would be endangered if they couldn't have this person's unique talents (pretty much what they have to state to get H1-Bs now), along with a not huge, but significant application fee. Then, the worker gets a green card and can go to work for anyone she wants to.
Of course, the worker will then go to work for the company that made the application and stay there because she's such a unique asset that the company will gladly give her a salary above prevailing rates. They won't hesitate to do that because, hey, the company's future depends on her. They said so in the application.
Yeah. Right.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)of barely-contained rage at the thought of IMMIGRANTS WHAT BE TAKIN ARE JERBS.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Yeah, the language used by a couple people on this forum makes them sound like xenophobic nuts, but this is a real problem for U.S. citizens. It's an intentional attempt to drive down wages for technical professionals in various engineering and science jobs. U.S. citizens simply will have a much more difficult time finding a job that pays enough to make a dent in their student loan debt. Unless it's coupled with legislation eliminating student loan debt and making higher education near free, it's a direct attack on the U.S. labor force.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)It was a problem for me a few years ago, and guess what--I was just as angry as they are.
But not raising the H-1B cap will hurt people. Real people. Not "Bob" or "Suzie" in Bangalore--I'm talking about folks who've been here nearly ten years--gotten college degrees, pay taxes, and have lives. They're basically Americans in all but name and to take that away from them would be cruel.
All I hear from this supposedly progressive, tolerant haven of thought, though, is "KICK ALL THE IMMIGRANTS OUT AND GIVE THEIR JOBS TO AMERICANS!"
alp227
(32,020 posts)Wake up. Maybe those "folks who've been here nearly ten years" may also be getting the shaft from those greedy cheap labor corporations.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... it IS imbalanced. If they work for even half of what we make, they put away 4/5ths of what they would make back there on a temporary basis to build up a bigger savings by working here and they return back to India with a bigger nest egg. Meanwhile, we all have to make half of what we are worth here or not work in this profession. THAT is what is keeping Americans from pursuing this profession, especially when the cost of education for young people now is far more prohibitive for our students than it is elsewhere around the world.
Those who want to work here should be working here with the idea of BECOMING A PART of this country. That is the tradition of this country. And therefore their family should live here and be a part of the American tradition so that they are as invested both financially and spiritually in to making this country a better one. People favoring this system are not xenophobic. They are realistic about what should work for everyone.
Those who want to support the idea of global freedom to work everywhere should START by making sure that we have an even playing field everywhere, and therefore have global trade unions, have labor rights and environmental protections, etc. be rolled in to all of the "free trade" agreements we are signed up for, to ensure that people everywhere can live on a living wage where they reside.
Our cost of living being so much higher here is partly due to us having such more wealth at the top that influences the costs of our society being higher, even though more and more of us are living in poverty. That imbalance needs to be corrected too.
mac56
(17,566 posts)Very, very well put.
"Those who want to work here should be working here with the idea of BECOMING A PART of this country. That is the tradition of this country. And therefore their family should live here and be a part of the American tradition so that they are as invested both financially and spiritually in to making this country a better one."
Exactly the opposite of what H1B visas do.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)here and become citizens should have that opportunity.
We should not have people here who are, from the get-go, deprived of any opportunity to become citizens. That is precisely the problem.
If people agree to come in on H1-B visas that limit their immigration status to never becoming citizens, then they should go back to their homes at the end of the time of their visas.
I do not like H1-B visas. They create second-class residents who are in a limbo between belonging and not belonging here.
sikofit3
(145 posts)Why do they not want to push cheaper education for Americans or to recruit them FIRST. They always say there is not enough qualified Americans to fill these spots and I think that is BULL. I used to believe because of globalization they were trying to break our standard of living for what ever piece of the global puzzle we are supposed to fill but then there is the greed domestic agenda here from the 1%, along with fundamentalist Christians trying to put us back 1000 years. All I want to know is WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE? I think we as a whole population, minus the 1%, have really taken enough. When will they be satisfied? Never ending bread lines? Its so discouraging sometimes I want to be the one staring at the sun oblivious because its too much to bear when the end results are not good for any of us and the next generation.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)is the way to try to cut through the argument on H1B visas. That's exactly what some in this thread are doing. The US Government has the right to set the number of visas, but it should not be done if Americans can fill those jobs.
There is an imbalance between the US and other countries in terms of education mostly because of the cost. India and China are churning out engineers by the tens of thousands each year and if they worked in their own country would get paid maybe 1/3rd of what an American would. I highly doubt the people in these countries are amassing huge amounts of debt to go to school.
Most of the people on H1B visas are remitting a large part of their salaries back to their home country, so only a small amount is spent within the United States (yes, they pay taxes and have to spend some money on living expenses, but both would be relatively low percentage of the amount of their salary).
I have no problem with the concept of the visas themselves, but the raising of the limit is what is shocking. If they are going to raise it, then put a cap of 100,000. That would still be almost a 20% increase. Maybe some will disagree that no increase should be made, but I think a very marginal increase would be much better than the huge increase that is being sought.
It seems to me that the corporate lobby has gotten greedy (surprise, surprise) in terms of trying to bring in more people.
So my question is, the next time they come and complain at there are not enough visas are we going to hear the cap has been increased to 400,000?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Then you're not talking about H-1B visas.
They're 3 year visas, renewable once for a total of 6 years.
The people receiving the visa must already have a degree.
If you want to hand out "real" visas and green cards like candy, I'm all for it. Those aren't H-1B visas. H-1B visas only exist because high-tech workers were getting close to "executive" pay. So the H-1B visa was created to drive down wages.
H-1B visas need to be abolished completely. If we actually need high-tech workers, then let people immigrate permanently if they have those skills. 6 year limit and at-the-whim-of-the-employer is not good for US workers nor the H-1B visa holders.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)returned to the country in which they are citizens to work and help others in that country.
The problem is with the H1-B workers who do not see their time abroad as a learning experience that permits them to go home and improve the country they come from, the country in which they are citizens.
That makes the world a more integrated place. But when H1-Bs just come here to work and siphon off jobs and money, they are a burden and are detrimental to our nation.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)I AM NOT XENOPHOBIC - YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)Is how we'll win the race to the bottom. Just a reminder we're in a class war and there are casualties all over the battle field. We're losing.
ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)You are dreaming about living in Utopialand again.
The US has a responsibility to its own citizens, FIRST and foremost. Once that obligation is fulfilled, then we can discuss being the worlds employment agency.
This has nothing to do with isolationism or xenophobia... it is about sustainability, future growth and self-sufficiency of a country of laws designed to protect the freedoms of its citizens.
I'm glad you found a doctor that never had to take the MCAT for medical school entrance; never had to endure the requirements and curriculum of US Medical Schools; never had to go into financial debt to obtain his education; never had to go through the intern through residency requirements of a US doctor; benefited from USMLE requirements which are different for foreign students; was able to gain sponsorship from a hospital at a lower salary and the hospital was willing to do it because there is no cost to the hospital for sponsoring a foreign MD equivalent.
But then again, you also entrust your life to the companies that produce your food, dump waste into the sewers, build your automobiles, program our traffic lights, and man our nuclear arsenal and power plants, everyday, as well...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the interviews, the tests, the long hours, etc., I prefer American doctors.
I don't care what ethnicity they are or what color or where they were born, but I do care about whether they got their degrees in the US.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)No. We should feed, clothe, AND EMPLOY our kids first. Our first responsibility is to the American family and then to the world family.
We are voluntarily creating a class of snobs from other countries who will lord it over us because they think they got here on "merit" and we didn't. This is a foolish thing to do.
No to these "I am privileged" visas. No. No. No.
This is a yet another sell-out to the mega-corporations. No. No. No.
This will just lower American wages another notch. These workers are cheap an no better than the Americans they push out of the good jobs.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Fuck that. Apart from an accident of birth, there's nothing that makes me an American.
mac56
(17,566 posts)Verily, thou speaketh volumes.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)my guess is they are very much profiting from pimping American jobs
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Try living as an immigrant on a temporary visa sometime. You go ahead and build up a life for yourself only to be fucked over because of where you were born by accident and kicked out of the country that is your home. Fuck the draft; I now think every person should have to live as an immigrant to know what it's like before they can say shit about immigrants to their own country.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)American government to provide equal opportunity to Americans.
The special visas give priority and preference to non-Americans who are not covered by the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.
We do not owe equality or a fair chance to children from India or China until they come here and reside here. We have no obligation to give them preferences for jobs that Americans could be trained to do.
If nothing other than an accident of birth makes you an American, maybe you should think about trying another country. I lived in other countries. It opens your eyes about what it means to be a citizen and what it means not to be a citizen.
We still live in nation-states.
Only the mega-corporations live in many countries at once.
Even people with dual citizenship can only be in one place at at time.
I agree with those who suggest that if we are going to make special work visas available to foreign nationals, we should forgive all student debts. What hope is there for American students, what incentive, if a student from India who owes very little debt for his education, can come here an work for less than the American students need to repay their debts and live?
These visas are truly anti-American, and I do not say that lightly because I remember the days of the House Unamerican Activities Committee and McCarthy. It was shameful.
But these visas are truly anti-American.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)There are no jobs to which non-americans are given preference.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Here's how the scam works:
1. The company says "We need a software engineer II. Requirements are (list of requirements for a software engineer V)"
2. Not surprisingly, the company is not able to find a US citizen who's an SE2 with the experience of an SE5. Such people are, shockingly enough, SE5s.
3. Company says "see! We need H-1Bs" and hires one. She has the experience of an SE5. She's hired as an SE2.
4. H-1B visa holder is assigned the duties of an SE5 at SE2 pay. Which means they're getting ~$40k/year for a job that should pay ~$90k/year.
H-1B visa holders are given preference because they will work for less. The "rules" that are supposed to provide preferences for US citizens over H-1B visa holders are trivial to avoid.
If we actually need people with STEM degrees, let them immigrate. Hand out green cards. Don't create a special visa designed to hurt them and hurt US citizens.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)That's a living wage. It's not like people are being paid under the table, or less than what is legal. The job market changes. I don't know what else to say about it. Should we have better laws protecting job security? Yes. Should we have higher wages? Yes. However, I don't think that discrimination based on accident of birth should have an impact on that.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Instead of raging against people, you might wanna take some time to find out how the system actually works.
In my example, the company won't hire a US SE5 at SE2 wages. Because that SE5 will only work there until they find a new job - they're vastly underpaid for their level of experience, and are likely to find a job in the next two years that pays them more.
The H-1B visa holder is locked into the job for 3-6 years. The visa holder won't be able to take that higher-paying job 2 years from now. So the company will cheerfully underpay them.
Then the entire concept of the H-1B visa should be an outrage to you.
You should be pressing to hand out green cards instead of a limited-time, employer-lock-in visa that results in pay way below prevailing wage. That is the fairness you claim to support.
Instead, you're screaming "NATIVIST!!!!" instead of finding out what's actually happening to these people.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)1. This bill will go nowhere.
2. Did you notice in it that H1Bs would now count in one's favor in applying for a green card?
Yes, open immigration would be better, but any step towards that - including allowing an increased number of H1B visas - is a good thing. The US job market is fucked with or without these visas. However, if more of these visas help some people have better lives, I think that's great. I don't care what name is on the front of their passport.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)and gives way too much power to the employer. If you want to make it easier to get a green card, make it easier to get a green card. There's no need to create the abomination that is the H-1B.
This isn't a step towards that.
While the bill makes an H-1B a positive factor, the bill is vastly increasing H-1Bs while NOT vastly increasing green cards. Plus the H-1B visa holder is still required to leave the country, either at the end of the visa or to receive the green card.
And the people who have worse lives due to H-1B's?
You're still only paying attention to the immigrants that you think benefit. You're ignoring the citizens who are hurt by H-1Bs, as well as the fact that H-1Bs hurt the immigrant compared to a "real" visa.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)People are only "hurt" by these visas in the same way that people are "hurt" by other types of immigration, including the undocumented kind (and there are a hell of a lot more workers in the US with no visas than this kind... by a magnitude of what? Some thousands?). The market that's regulated by governments is what makes these things necessary/possible (depending on how you look at it).
All of these arguments remind me of this story:
There are two desperately poor farmers living next to each other in the middle of nowhere. They both have to bust ass just to stay alive, but one of them has a goat which he can use for milk and cheese, while the other doesn't have any animals. One day, while tilling the field, the goat-less farmer finds a magic lamp. A genie comes out and says that since he's so damn poor and miserable, he'll only give him one wish, instead of the normal three. The farmer says, "I wish my neighbour didn't have a goat."
How about we actually try to sensibly regulate the markets, instead of leaving those regulations up to big business and then discriminating against people who are just trying to make the best for themselves in the same shitty market as everyone else. I can't say this enough: in this world, we have enough resources to give every single person a comfortable standard of living. I would rather work on that than wish death on my neighbour's goat.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)What you're desperately failing to understand is the H-1B does not make the immigrant and the citizen the same.
The H-1B, in fact, doesn't even make an immigrant. It's a non-immigrant visa.
Go re-read my previous posts, where I explain in graphic detail how both the visa holder and citizens are hurt by H-1B visas.
Because you're so busy arguing, it's abundantly clear you aren't bothering to read anything other people write.
How 'bout you actually try to read what people are writing. Because then you'd understand that the H-1B is killing the goat and salting the fields of both farmers.
Then you should HATE the H-1B visa. But you don't understand what it does, and are not willing to find out.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Go tell a person who has busted ass their entire life only to wind up with a shitty job on a shitty visa because it's the best the market had to offer that they aren't worthy of that.
Would you tell someone this? Would you walk up to a person working their hardest to make their life as good as possible that they should get out of "your" country (where they're also paying taxes, but without a vote)? Would you tell them that they aren't welcome?
How many times can I say that I think all borders should be open and that job markets should be open to everyone?
Yes, blah blah blah, corporations are evil. No shit. How about we have some solidarity between workers, for fuck's sake? I'd much rather focus on our common struggles as human beings than our differences.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Did you EVER take a course in government in the U.S.
Do you understand the responsibilities of a citizen?
I know. If you just read or listen to the media, as so many young people do now, you do not understand the importance of citizenship.
So many young people today are ignorant when it comes to U.S. government.
Years ago, I read a report on the Constitution that I wrote as a senior in high school.
I was amazed at how solid it was. Even then I understood. But now, American students don't get good courses in government.
It is no wonder that many Americans cannot understand what is wrong with H1-B visas.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I know enough about the history of the US and its government to know that I don't have shit to do with it apart from an accident of birth. Strangely enough, I think that's part of why I take it so seriously.
Oh, but, you know, "kids these days" or "get off my lawn" blah blah blah... never mind that I went to top schools in the US, am a doctor, and am an expert in my field, recognized the world over. I must just be an uneducated dunce if I don't agree with you.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)as you depart
markiv
(1,489 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Many Americans do not realize the huge sacrifices their ancestors made when they came here.
Clearly, African-Americans lost their culture, their families, their friends and their human dignity and have had to fight for those things here.
I am not African-American, but my mother has a diary that was written by one of my ancestors on the ship over here. They buried a child at sea as they crossed the ocean. They brought a few belongings, traveled across the country and settled, never to see their families, friends, and homelands again.
It was not easy for these people. Today, when immigrants come, if they come legally, they can hope to visit family. Mail and internet contact including Skype keep us close to family overseas if we have any.
If immigration had been awarded as a prize for those who were the most meritorious, many of our ancestors would not have come. Our country would not be as diverse as it is. We would not have the democratic traditions that we have developed.
I strongly oppose these privilege visas. Let people come in, but give no preferences based on skill or education. Let everyone wait in line. American visas and ultimately American citizenship are great privileges but should not be just for the well educated or rich or well connected.
We need diversity in our immigration.
If we are going to increase the numbers of these visas, then in my opinion, we should give the Statue of Liberty back to France. It stands for nothing.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
by Emma Lazarus, New York City, 1883
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/liberty/lazaruspoem.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)You know they wouldn't.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)
midnight
(26,624 posts)Wow-emphasis to skill and educate...Hmm so many Americans out of work and in need of skill and education.....
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)
ramapo
(4,588 posts)Absolutely, unbelievably, f'ing disgusting. This is a sick country that values corporate profit over the well being of its citizens.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Is the US God's magical kingdom, with the people born unto its land inherently more deserving of life than others?
ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)Nobody stated that anyone is better than someone else. This country is no different than running a home.
You take care of your family first, because that is your duty and job. Then, you help out others where you can. That is what makes the world a better place. Would you kick your brother, sister, mother, wife - out of your home because some stranger feels entitled to their bed, dinner, toothbrush?
No, the US is not "God's magical kingdom".. citizenship is a gift granted to non-citizens when they prove that they have something to bring to the potluck dinner... not an open door party, feed your face and shit on our carpet before you leave, and let someone else clean up your mess, venue.
Being a citizen means that you agree to abide by our set of rules. You don't abide, you lose your freedoms. Every country has the ability to make their people prosper. Places like India still have the caste system and they shit in the streets - yet they have an active space exploration, and are landing probes on the moon and mars. Isn't it the job of the country to tax the nations wealth to build up a living infrastructure? It not the job of all other countries to be their escape hatch to a better life.
The H-1b program largely benefits Indian owned outsourcing companies that wish to bring Indian workers over to perform work at a lower wage to maximize their profits. Slaves, in other words. Does that sound "magical" to you?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)ramapo
(4,588 posts)No..People born here, educated here, and working here should have the security of knowing that their job cannot be taken by somebody who has been provided an H1B visa. Simple as that.
I have seen hundreds of jobs lost due to this visa program.
The mantra that getting an education is so important is chanted over and over. Sure go to school, get a degree in computer science. Then watch as people come here after getting free educations, internships to gain experience, and then fast tracked to a job here "outsourcing" a data center once staffed by people just like me, poor shlubs with ten or 20 years experience who end up training their replacement.
The H1B visa program, at least as far as computer related jobs, was supposed to be a temporary measure to help supplement the work force while more Americans gained technical training. Instead it has become a subsidy to consulting companies, software developers and more.
When there is widespread unemployment and under-employment then there is no moral reason to have, much less increase, a visa program.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Do I have that right? Why should an American get preference for a job over anyone else?
ramapo
(4,588 posts)Because our representatives should be more interested in protecting the jobs of their constituents rather than the corporate interests.
Because technical workers don't have lobbyists to buy off Members of Congress to get them to raise visa limits, visas that directly result in constituents losing jobs.
And yes, an American should get preference to keep their job rather than being outsourced or offshored. Is that a prolem?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I think we should get all money out of politics. Having anything other than publicly funded elections is definitely something worth getting angry about. Having someone born on a wednesday get a job that was arbitrarily designated to go to people born on a tuesday is not something to get angry about.
However, I don't see what any of this has to do with some sort of inherent right an American should have over any other person. Do you think we as human beings are not all inherently equal? Do you really think that place of birth should come along with special privileges? How is giving one person a right and denying it to another because of where they were born in relationship to an imaginary line any different than giving people different rights and opportunities based on what day of the week they were born?
ramapo
(4,588 posts)Yes, I believe all human beings are inherently equal. And I believe your place of birth gives you special privileges. Privileges like your government works for your self-interest over the corporate interests that as a by product promotes another person's (a non-citizen) economic well being over your own.
I have nothing against legitimate immigration but the H1B program is anything but legitimate. It is a program that promotes opportunity for non-citizens while at the same time providing corporations with another tool to enhance their bottom line.
Exactly what is equal about this scenario?
An American develops a career in technology through education and hard work. This education cost a lot of money which was paid off via work. The experience came with much difficulty because we all know that getting that first job or two is very difficult. No experience, no job. Then after you've given ten or twenty years, maybe more, to your career (or this is a second career because your old career went away and you went through the pain of retraining yourself), your company decides it can cut costs by outsourcing its IT department.
The company brings in workers employed by a consulting company. These workers are here on H1B visas, visas that ostensibly supplement the workforce. You are told your job goes away in two months and in the meanwhile you are to train your replacement.
The H1B holder gains valuable experience at the expense of the replaced worker. Later on maybe the H1B becomes an American citizen. Maybe the H1B returns to India and is employed at a data center that offshores American data centers.
We can say this is the harsh reality of globalization and there is some truth to it. However, if the Congress strictly limited H1B visas then the above scenario would not have taken place. The economic displacement of maybe your neighbor (or perhaps yourself) would not have happened.
I am all for the economic development of other countries and other people but not at the expense of my country, my friends, my coworkers or myself.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Yes, in some cases where you are born affords you special privileges, but I think this is clearly completely wrong. Anything we can do to rectify that is a good thing.
I really don't see what immigration has to do with the scenario you outlined. Other countries have far greater job protection. Instead of blaming the frightening outsider, maybe we should examine the faults which effect everyone. In France, for instance, if you hold down a job long enough, you've basically got that job for life, if you want it. It's that way in a lot of places. UK universities don't have a concept like tenure in the US, because if you're hired on for a job that isn't only for a limited fixed term, that's your job, and you can't lose it unless you fuck up.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... for everything to live the same decent life we might have once expected here. Is that "clearly and completely wrong" that they pay less than we do and aren't "equal" to us in what they have to pay to live in their countries?
We pay more to commit to living here permanently. But you don't complain about the unfairness we face in terms of what we have to pay to live here not being equal. You JUST complain about how we don't like having our jobs taken away because they no longer pay a living wage to live here when we WANT to live here where we have been citizens.
Most of us here are NOT blaming the foreign workers that come here, but are blaming OUR GOVERNMENT and the oligarchs that own them for allowing this PIECE OF SHIT garbage called an H-1B program that is just a means to get them cheap labor and not a means that it ostensibly is to get "unique combinations of skill sets" that they can't hire here. If there truly were some skill combinations that American workers don't have, then arguably companies should be willing to pay MORE to hire an overseas worker to do that than they pay American citizens for that work here. Instead statistics over and over show that H-1B workers collectively work for far less than American workers here doing the same job. The quotas should stay small to meet these needs, and companies should be willing to pay extra to hire for such situations, not less.
We need to fix our government to protect the average person more. American auto workers for example are also paid far less than German auto workers in a country where by law companies above a certain size have to have half of their board representing the workforce of that company, in effect institutionalizing what would be union power here in to the company itself.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Thankfully that practice was done away with 150 years ago, but it seems that painful vestiges of it remain in the hearts of many.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Some choice you are providing us, when you continue to ignore the CRAP that H-1B is and how it is not helping average people anywhere, whether they be Americans or foreigners. It is designed to help those at the top race to the bottom. And until you recognize that, you are going to be treated with doubt here as someone who is ignorant, or conveniently ignoring this to mask your true agenda here.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)All borders should be open to all people. All jobs should be open to every applicant. All jobs should pay a living wage.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Just tell that to Americans when Switzerland later tells you to go home. See how much "love" you'll get for your notion of so-called "world equality"! Won't go very far sir!
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)If you think the jobs people on H1B visas are doing should pay more, campaign for that, not against the visas. Campaigning against the visas only further hurts the poor who are trying to make the best of their lives. Working on increasing wages and job security helps everyone.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)We don't want people to get paid 50% of the going rate for their actual job. No matter where they come from.
(And if you think H-1B job descriptions are accurate, I've got some lovely beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you).
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)That's how markets work, you know? I'm slightly sympathetic to communist views that these things should never change, or that most work, no matter the position, should be treated equally in terms of pay, but I mostly disagree with it. I think competition for jobs is good, and the larger the market is for those jobs, the better. If it's worth it for customers to pay more because doing so means they get a better product or service, let it happen, SO LONG AS everyone's getting a living wage and basic human rights. What's missing in the US is not the need for decreased immigration, but a change in things that would help make things better for everyone.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's artificially lowered by the restrictions on the H-1B visa holder. Companies will not hire US citizens at these rates. Because US citizens are free to change employers when they find a better paying job. The H-1B locks the visa holder to the underpaying company.
H-1B visas screw over US citizens and the H-1B visa holder. The only winner is the employer. If you really want the egalitarian world you propose, you should demand green cards for these people, not H-1B visas. That would put them in the same boat as US citizens - able to work for anyone, so they can get the market rate.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Is it that there aren't enough jobs for Americans, or that there are so many that Americans wouldn't be willing to work these jobs for less than a premium? If it's the latter, I think you might be making a case for these visas (not a case I'm making, by the way).
Yes, I think everyone should be able to live and work wherever they see fit, and if having this type of visa will now help more people work towards that by getting a green card, that's great.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)So.....in your mind is it job seekers that make hiring decisions? "I applied for this job, so you will hire me now"?
Companies make hiring decisions. They pick who to hire, and what salary they are willing to offer.
Companies will not offer jobs to citizens with salary this far below market rate. Because the citizen can work for any company. The company assumes a citizen will be able to find a better paying job and will quit. So the company does not make any job offers - in fact they construct their search so that no citizens qualify for the job to justify getting an H-1B.
The H-1B visa requires the non-immigrant to work for that one company. They can not work for another employer. Thus the company will offer them jobs this far below market rate. Because the visa holder can't quit for a better paying job.
Then you should HATE the H-1B visa. It utterly fails to do that. The non-immigrant can not live nor work wherever they see fit. They can live and work, for only 3 or 6 years, where the company tells them to.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)That's in addition to whatever other options they had. x+1 > x
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Good job of ignoring not only other people's arguments, but your own arguments.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Because that person who moves to the US under any visa program is legally obliged to stay and work and can never return to their home country. Give me a fucking break. Getting an education, learning multiple languages, and moving around the world to work in a professional environment is just like picking cotton.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)then you are a slave. It isn't about the kind of work you do. It is about having the freedom to move from job to job and strive for higher pay within your national market.
One interesting thing is that these H1-B visas are generally only practical if given to single people with no children. They don't really pay well enough to raise a family in the US. And if a person with a family accepts one of these visas, then that person usually has to separate from his children and family for the period of his stay in the US. That means that the visas are pretty much limited to people of certain ages. And they probably are not bringing people over 50 in on these visas very often.
So, these visas tend to discriminate against Americans based on age I should think also. That is illegal in the US.
It would be interesting for someone to do some research on the age spread of people who obtain H1-B visas. Very interesting. They may actually be, in part, a way that companies avoid complying with our age discrimination laws.
The truth about the low pay and exploitation of H1-B workers:
KASTE: According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, wages for computer programmers have stagnated. In fact, between 2001 and 2011, the mean hourly wage didn't even keep up with inflation. It's still less than $40. Microsoft says there have been some healthy increases recently, not reflected in the government numbers. But for critics of the system, it's apparent that the H1-B visas work as a kind of pressure-release valve on pay. Matloff also thinks the visas let companies avoid hiring older programmers.
MATLOFF: You can be an exact fit but if you're 35, you're probably not going to even get a phone call. And meanwhile, the company is going to tell the press that there's just not any qualified people.
KASTE: Microsoft disputes this analysis. It says H1-B workers actually cost more because of the legal fees involved, and it hires foreigners only when it has no choice. And in fact, the law does require an employer to show that it can't find Americans. [POST-BROADCAST CORRECTION: In fact, most prospective employers can avoid having to show they've recruited Americans, as long as they meet certain guidelines.] But that process inspires a lot of cynicism, even from one of the people who wrote the law.
BRUCE MORRISON: You hire the alien first, and then you manipulate the regulatory system to prove that you can't find an American.
http://www.npr.org/2013/02/19/172373123/older-tech-workers-oppose-increasing-h-1b-visas
What you are advocating is closer to indentured servitude. The 14th Amendment was supposed to put an end to those relationships between immigrants and employers, just as it was supposed to end slavery.
But, here we are with H1-B visas. I my view they circumvent the 14th Amendment. They create a market that deprives citizens of an equal opportunity to compete for jobs. Employers claim that they try to hire Americans first, but large numbers of unemployed Americans ready to take tech jobs indicate otherwise.
Here is another interesting article debunking the arguments in favor of H1-B visas.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)They skew the job market in favor of the employer and against the employee.
They are an abomination. And the people who advocate for H1-B visas will probably tell you that they are political "conservatives" who want free markets.
They only want a free market for themselves, for employers, a market that gives them the freedom to exploit H1-B workers and the American workers they displace. The H1-B employers do not want a competitive market for workers.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)What kind of government would you want in your international utopia?
Who do you want deciding how much pollution is permitted where you live?
Who do you want deciding how much you pay in taxes?
Who do you want deciding whether you drive on the right or left side of the street?
There are a million questions like that and we need government to decide them.
We have a few choices -- government by international oligarchy; government by international democracy (unwieldy and therefore at this time pretty impossible) or; government by national and local governments either dictatorships or democracies.
Which of these systems do you think would work in your international utopia? Or do you have some totally new concept?
Citizenship and nations exist because we need a practical way to govern ourselves at the local level. In complex societies, we have to agree on certain rules or organizational procedures and regulations.
Otherwise we have chaos.
I don't want someone in Ethiopia or Columbia or Germany deciding what the rules are where I live because they don't understand what it is like to live here or what our challenges and advantages are. Nothing against Ethiopians or Columbians or Germans, but they should make and live by their rules, and we should make and live by ours.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)"What kind of government would you want in your international utopia?"
Utopia is impossible. An equitable distribution of resources is not.
"Who do you want deciding how much pollution is permitted where you live?"
The people who live there.
"Who do you want deciding how much you pay in taxes?"
The people who live there, provided that enough is given to ensure quality infrastructure and basic human rights (two things lacking in the US at this time).
"Who do you want deciding whether you drive on the right or left side of the street?"
The people who drive on those streets.
"We have a few choices -- government by international oligarchy; government by international democracy (unwieldy and therefore at this time pretty impossible) or; government by national and local governments either dictatorships or democracies.
Which of these systems do you think would work in your international utopia? Or do you have some totally new concept?"
Hello there, Mr. Strawman!! How are you doing today?!
"Citizenship and nations exist because we need a practical way to govern ourselves at the local level. In complex societies, we have to agree on certain rules or organizational procedures and regulations.
Otherwise we have chaos."
Read Deleuze and Guattari's Capitalism and Schizophrenia and get back to me on that - particularly the first few chapters of A Thousand Plateaus.
"I don't want someone in Ethiopia or Columbia or Germany deciding what the rules are where I live because they don't understand what it is like to live here or what our challenges and advantages are. Nothing against Ethiopians or Columbians or Germans, but they should make and live by their rules, and we should make and live by ours."
Again with this us and them!! Jesus, give it up!! There is no us and them based on where we were born or who our parents were. That's completely arbitrary!!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I am not an anarchist. I am a Democrat and a democrat.
ramapo
(4,588 posts)The outsider is not frightening. I have nothing against the visa holder. They are only taking advantage of a program our government has extended to them at our expense or as you might see it, a special privilege.
This is about immigration because it is a special immigration policy that puts American technology workers at a disadvantage. Can there be rules to prevent the scenario I outlined? Absolutely. One might argue that the rules exist but are not taken seriously. There is no reason for this special program to exist except that it serves the purpose of the corporations. The program should be abolished and those wishing to come to the United States should follow the normal immigration framework.
Now if your argument is going to be that there should not be any rules regarding immigration because everybody should have the right to do anything anywhere, well then I will agree, we would all like to live in Utopia. That place does not and will not exist in our lifetime.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)When my dad's grandfather left the Russian Empire for the UK and then US, the country he considered himself to be from didn't officially exist. On US census forms he was listed as being Russian. Now that country does officially exist, and anyone from there can go work anywhere they'd like at all in the EU, and anyone else from the EU can likewise go there.
While this has happened, the US has gone steadily downhill, both economically and culturally.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Because why should companies here have to hire people here right?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I'm for universal human rights and every person having the highest standard of living possible. Of course we have the resources to do this now, but we don't. One way to work towards this would be to have far more sensible and equitable trade policies.
valerief
(53,235 posts)
forestpath
(3,102 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I am so sick of seeing American citizens lose their jobs to cheap foreign labor just so corporate executives can continue to grab bigger and bigger bonuses.
What about American college graduates with degrees in science and technology? How the hell are they going to find jobs, let alone pay off gigantic student loans?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)My parents and grandmother lived, starving, in a refugee camp after WW2. They wanted to go to the UK, but there was an immigration rule that a married couple could only bring one dependent (namely, my grandmother, who was ill). Unfortunately my mother was expecting a baby, but the UK immigration people refused to budge. Baby or grandmother, pick one.
My mother had an abortion (if you can imagine the horrors of having one in a refugee camp) in order to be able to bring her mother with them to the UK. Leaving her there would have meant leaving her to starve to death -- all they had to eat were potatoes and a small monthly ration of horsemeat.
After all this, they caught a break. My mother got a pair of donated shoes from the Red Cross. Inside one she found a note from two French-Canadian women who had donated the shoes. She started corresponding with them, and they offered to help find someone in the US to sponsor them as immigrants.
At the time Europe and other parts of the world were teeming with desperate refugees from WW2, and the US only allowed a certain number of immigrants in from each country, proportionate to the number already living in the US. The number allowed from Estonia, their home country, was consequently small.
However these Canadian ladies managed somehow to find my parents and grandmother a sponsor of Estonian ancestry in NYC, and eventually they got to the US on a Red Cross ship in 1949. Both my parents had had some college education, though they had to drop out because of the war. They both spoke fluent English, Estonian, Russian and German. My mother had worked as a secretary for a Royal Air Force General (UK) while living in the camp, and my father had worked as a resettlement clerk, so they had skills and intelligence.
It took them 4 years to get to the U.S., and they arrived penniless. They both became citizens and were honest and law-abiding people. My father became an accountant and notary public, and managed a cleaning products manufacturing company. I was born three years after they came to the U.S.
I defy anyone coming here on an H1B visa, after getting free education in their own country, to demonstrate a struggle similar to what my parents and others went through to become productive US citizens. My parents contributed to this country and didn't take away other people's jobs. My husband is an IT professional. Many of his friends, as well as his brother, have been laid off ans unemployed for years, unable to find jobs in the IT field because of these H1B visas.
Are American citizens supposed to starve and become homeless, or flip burgers, just so some people from other countries can come here and take their jobs?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)"Are American citizens supposed to starve and become homeless, or flip burgers, just so some people from other countries can come here and take their jobs?"
Yeah, think of someone saying that about what your parents went through. Fuck that shit. We're all citizens of the world, and we all have equal rights, no matter what any government might say.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)except that a relative took him in after 5 years of trying to get work in IT. Undercut by cheap foreign labor.
My parents didn't take away jobs from Americans. My mom scrubbed floors and my dad worked for a car dealer. They didn't come here with hundreds of thousands of other Estonians, to grab tens of thousands of white collar jobs away from American citizens.
When and if the Indian government (or whatever other country sends people here on H1B visas) allows hundreds of thousands of American IT professionals to come to India and take away IT jobs from local citizens, I might give credence to your "citizens of the world" argument. I suspect the locals would riot if such a thing were to happen. And it won't, because other countries protect the jobs of their citizens, unlike the U.S.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Got it.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)to grab large numbers of middle class jobs from Americans. If they had, there would certainly have been resentment against them by earlier-arriving Americans, and I could understand that.
My parents and grandmother didn't want to come to America, but they had few other choices. If they had been forced back to Soviet-occupied Estonia, they would likely have been sent to Siberia to perish with thousands of other Estonians. They would rather have lived in the UK to at least be in Europe, closer to their homeland.
I brought up my parents' immigration story because you challenged me to. It seems to me as though 98 percent of what I've written is ignored, only to have a few words pounced on.
Feel free to support corporations that screw Americans who pay their taxes and provide the infrastructure in which the corporations operate. Perhaps one day someone from another country will take over your job, or that of a relative, because the employer wants to replace them with cheap labor from overseas. Will your world citizenship pay the bills?
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Cheap labour from overseas? Well, there are minimum wage laws in the US. If you think they should be higher, don't blame organizations legally operating in the market, and especially don't blame people who would give up a hell of a lot just for the chance of a better life in a foreign country - knowing that they might have that home then taken away from them, because they're not a citizen.
Who is taking over whose job in this scenario you suggest? How is it any different than those cheap foreigners... err... your parents... who "took over" jobs from tax paying, hard working Americans in the past?
Shit, it's almost like no matter where people happen to have been born, they're willing to work their assess off and even move to another country just because they want what's best for their lives and the lives of those they love.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)industrially and needed workers. That is not the case now.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)there weren't people who couldn't get jobs but were willing and able to work? Fascinating. Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)That's when a lot of our little 3-bedroom houses were built. I lived it. That was a time of expansion -- through the first years of Ronald Reagan and until the fall of the Soviet Union.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And I know what Jim Crow was because I lived in the South when I was in high school. Jim Crow was separate water fountains, separate bathrooms, separate waiting rooms in the bus station, separate schools, separate everything.
In general, the North did not have Jim Crow. I went to integrated schools in the North. I went to segregated schools (in the 1950s) in the South.
I happen to know a lot about this.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)involved the actual Jim Crow signs I saw as a teenager in a southern city.
pampango
(24,692 posts)All European countries allow citizens of other Europeans countries to work in each other's countries.
Germany (with a population of 80 million) allows 420 million other Europeans to freely work there. France (population of 65 million) allows 435 million other Europeans to freely work there. Sweden (population of 9.5 million) ...
All of those countries have stronger middle classes and more equitable distributions of income than we have in the US. We will not even agree to mutually open our border and employment market to Canadians who number 1/10 of the population of the US. And our income distribution is incredibly unequal and our middle class much weaker than in Europe.
"My parents didn't take away jobs from Americans. My mom scrubbed floors and my dad worked for a car dealer." - Are you implying that "Americans would not do those jobs" - scrubbing floors and selling cars? That is not a popular sentiment with the anti-immigrant folks. If your parents had been university professors or skilled professionals of another type, it would have been acceptable to keep them from entering the US?
I am not fan of H1B visas but many of the arguments made here seem to bleed over into opposing immigration in general rather than just temporary work visas like the H1B.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I certainly did not intend to imply that Americans would not do these jobs. The other poster challenged me about when my family came to America, and in response I told parents' story. Why would I oppose "immigration in general", when my own parents were immigrants?
I meant that my parents weren't coming here with hordes of other Estonians with the intention of snatching large numbers of good-paying jobs from Americans. No corporation brought them here with the intent of using them as cheap foreign labor to replace better-paid Americans.
And I was not in any way talking about European countries.
I was pointing out that there is absolutely no reciprocity in which Americans can obtain good tech jobs in India, the Philippines or the other nations that provide our corporations with H1B workers.
Here's a little thought experiment you can do to figure out if this is true:
In the last 2 years...
How many Greeks have moved to Germany?
How many Irish have moved to Germany?
How many Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French,........?
Very, very, very few. Almost none.
Since the countries I've listed are featuring things like 25% unemployment, what makes you think they'd stay in their home country instead of going to work in Germany, where the economy hasn't completely collapsed? Maybe immigration isn't quite as open as you believe.
And your plan to fix this is to have H-1B visa holders come work in the US for 1/2 the salary of US citizens? How, exactly, does this expand the middle class?
Only if you want to take them that way.
The H-1B visa is not immigration. It's a way to abuse both US citizens and the H-1B visa holder. If we actually needed STEM workers, then hand out green cards.
pampango
(24,692 posts)How many Greeks have moved to Germany?
How many Irish have moved to Germany?
How many Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French,........?
Very, very, very few. Almost none.
Number of Greeks moving to Germany rises by 80 pct
The number of Greeks relocating to Germany has increased by almost 80 percent during the first half of the year, data by the German statistics office showed on Thursday.
Some 501,000 foreigners had moved to Germany, the European Union's dominant economy, between January and June 2012 -- a rise of 15 percent compared with the same period last year, the data showed.
The number of Greeks moving to the country rose by 78 percent. The figure for Portugal and Spain went up by 53 percent over the same period.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_15/11/2012_470185
500,000 foreigners moving to Germany in a 6 month period would be the equivalent (their population being about 1/4 of ours) of 2 million foreigners moving to the US in 6 months or 4 million a year which is about 4 times the actual rate of immigration into the US.
I am not fan of H1B visas...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=457446
Only if you want to take them that way.
I only referred to the miduse of arguments against H1B visas and when applied to actual immigration because the poster to whom I was responding had related the history of her parents immigrating to the US, when the OP was on H1B visas.
I agree wholeheartedly.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Going from 100 people to 178 people is how much of an increase? And is 178 people a large population shift?
Immigration into Germany is very difficult, and very few people did it before. So the large increases you cite are increases upon small numbers. If immigration was as open as you claim, your 500K number is still tiny compared to the unemployed in all the European periphery. The fact that only 500k pulled it off shows it's not easy.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Immigration to Germany was 4 times what it is in the US. (1 million immigrants in a country 1/4 the size of the US which also allows about 1 million immigrants a year.) If you want to portray that as proving that "Immigration into Germany is very difficult", go right ahead. And if you think immigration to Germany is difficult, you must think that immigration to the US is next to impossible, since our immigration rate is so much lower even than that of Germany.
If a country A with 80 million people allows in 1 million immigrants a year, while a country B with 320 million also allows in 1 million immigrants annually, it would seem that country A has a very liberal immigration policy compared to country B.
I don't know about your ties to your country, but many people do not want to leave the country and culture. Not everyone want to move far from their family and friends, learn a new language or be stuck in menial jobs that don't require proficiency in the local language and adapt to a new culture (which is quite different from that of southern Europe). Perhaps if you were a Spaniard, you would have left Spain the day after you lost your job. Many of them have but not all Spaniards are like that.
You are right that percentage changes in immigration numbers (or anything else) could be misleading if based on a small beginning number. However, immigration numbers to Germany were quite large before the recent increases so the percentage increase is a valid measurement.
If you still feel that Germany somehow difficult to immigrate to, please cite polls, studies or at least some anecdotal evidence that people have been turned away from Germany or expelled once they arrived. Surely if millions of Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese are trying to get into Germany and being turned away at the border or sent home once they arrive, there must be stories about this in the press somewhere. Since freedom of movement within Europe is one of their "four freedoms", you would think there would be a big scandal if these erstwhile immigrants were being turned away at the German border.
mac56
(17,566 posts)no matter what any government might say."
Seriously, you astonish me more and more with every post.
You are an effective advocate for your position. Please proceed.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Unless it's coupled with legislation forgiving all student loan debt and making education in the U.S. near free. And we all know how likely that is to happen.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)Proposals like yours should be at the forefront.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Love and brotherhood should come before hate and division.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)to all Americans. We haven't achieved that yet. These visas are discriminatory. They discriminate based on education. And, in this economy, there is no reason to discriminate based on education. You can discriminate among Americans based on education when you hire. But we should not allow discrimination against Americans in hiring based on education. Do you understand the difference?
Companies should be required to offer and pay for training for unemployed Americans before being allowed to bring in a foreign national for a job.
We should not permit discrimination against Americans in the workplace based on ethnicity or national origin. That is what these visas do. Because the people who get these visas are given the opportunity to prepare themselves for these jobs and Americans are not given that same opportunity.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Why, I ask again, should an American be given preference over a non-American if we all should have equal rights?
You know that a hell of a lot of the people getting these visas are people who were educated int he US and have lived there for a long time. Whatever, though, right? Jim was born in the US, and Bhav wasn't, so fuck Bhav.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)they are the only people who defend it
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Arkana
(24,347 posts)They reduce everything to the lowest common denominator and do not allow any space for nuance or gray areas.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)should be given a preference. Their right to equal protection under the law is guaranteed.
People from India or China have no right to have equal protection under our law as I read the 14th Amendment.
U.S. Constitution
Amendment XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
Person, I would argue, is defined in the first sentence of that amendment.
Persons are those born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
And I don't think that, in these times of widespread unemployment, foreign nationals and citizens should be allowed to come in and use the privileges and claim equal rights with people born here.
If people have been here for years on American visas, on green cards, they should consider becoming citizens. That is, in my understanding, what the Dream Act is about -- encouraging people who live and work here and want to stay here to study and become citizens. I'm all for that.
I am not in favor of special work visas that essentially lure foreigners to the U.S. to become what the Germans call "Gastarbeitern" or essentially people here to work with no path to citizenship. Gastarbeitern are second-class citizens. That we should not have. That is very unamerican in my view. We already have too many people who have little legal standing here.
If an employer wants to bring an individual over here to work, let that employer sponsor the individual as an immigrant. Let the employer and the immigrant go through the immigration process. We should not have these temporary work visas at all. The people who have them are not protected by the 14th Amendment and in my opinion should not be. We have to have some legal clarity as to their status.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Human beings all have equal rights by virtue of being human beings.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)> Human beings don't have rights because of what's written on paper.
> Human beings all have equal rights by virtue of being human beings.
Human beings all have equal rights by virtue of 0 = 0.
There are no such things as "rights".
The various things that are claimed (e.g., "right to work", "right to life",
"right to carry weapons"
are merely desires that may or may not be
observed by others depending basically on luck & good fortune - the luck
and good fortune that arise from one's place of birth, one's parents situation,
the varying results of one's own efforts and the circumstances surrounding
each instance at which the "right" is being tested.
Nothing more, nothing less.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Aren't you suggesting that we by default come into a world ruled by others who subjugate us, and can therefore grant us things such as freedom with their power? I simply suggest that by default we all are free and then can only have subjugation forced upon us by others. I don't think that changes the fact that the default is freedom.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)fortune that arise from one's place of birth, one's parents situation, the varying results of one's own efforts and the circumstances surrounding each instance at which the "right" is being tested." Though I do not like that circumstance, I agree with your point. (I admit I was a little confused as to whether your point was that people should have no rights or that 'in the real world' that is not the reality of what happens.)
That does raise the question of whether liberals should accept that life is unfair in this way (some people are destined to have more 'rights' than others) and just move on or should we do something about it. Being born an African-American in Mississippi during the Jim Crow era certainly meant that one did not have the 'rights' that a white person had. (In a sense this baby had 'bad luck' in terms of "place of birth" and "parents' situation".) In essence this baby's rights were not the same as the right's of a white baby born on the same day.
Thankfully, liberals did not accept this 'real world' difference in the 'rights' that babies of different races were born with and over the ensuing decades we have made progress in terms of equalizing the 'rights' that babies have irrespective of their 'place of birth' or their 'parents' situation'. Much work remains to be done, but the goal of equalizing 'rights' has not changed nor should it.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)> Though I do not like that circumstance, I agree with your point.
> (I admit I was a little confused as to whether your point was that people should
> have no rights or that 'in the real world' that is not the reality of what happens.)
The latter - I didn't intend to suggest the former - the situation in the world
simply doesn't match up to the fine claims usually associated with "rights".
I likewise agree with your point that liberals should not simply "accept that life
is unfair" but view it more as a task of breaking down the barriers that are placed
to distinguish A from B and C from D rather than working to award A the same
intangible construct (the "right" as B. Just a minor difference in outlook I suppose.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...and President Obama is going to sign it, isn't he?
ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)He has back-peddled away from every other campaign promise that was designed to sustain the middle class.
hugo_from_TN
(1,069 posts)and it hurts the poorest in the country at the low end of the wage scale.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)And BOTH is what the corporate elites want to be able to engage in to help their race to the bottom to reward themselves at the top. We should be fighting BOTH of these methodologies of *using* workers here in this country, as well as giving tax credits for companies moving factories overseas to areas where there is no environmental laws and people work as slaves. This is the world of "virtual slavery" that we are now living in.
We might want global freedom of movement of people to go from one country to another to work, etc., but this is not something that will make this a better world for this to happen in. It only depresses people's rights and wages globally, American or another nationality.
You want to help attack this global world imbalance of people working. A better piece of legislation to do this would be to STOP agricultural subsidies (that were originally set up to help family farmers that largely don't exist any more) to big corporations that DON'T NEED IT and turn our taxpayer's subsidies here in to lower costs for them to dump corn products below cost in other countries like South American countries, forcing farmers there to sell off their farms because they can't compete to those who would set up companies that help outsource work down there. Those farmers become workers at those companies because they have nowhere else to make money, and if international companies "race to the bottom" to another country and pull out of some of these Mexican maquiladoras to get cheaper labor elsewhere, then where do those out of work farmers go? They come here! And the corporate elite LOVES all aspects to this equation. We start by stopping subsidizing their exports that create this problem to start with.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)OhioChick
(23,218 posts)I'd rather see jobs go to US citizens instead of cheap ass labor.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)Keep you eyes on the real ball.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)According to Senate aides, the number of H1B visas will go up from 85,000 to 205,000 and these will be primarily for the college-educated foreigners in science, technology, engineering and mathematics fields.
http://news.oneindia.in/2013/04/17/us-hike-h1b-visas-merit-will-count-for-green-cards-1195745.html
Some of my ancestors would not have made it. That's probably true for everybody here.
Why don't we just tear down the Statue of Liberty while we are at it?
This power-elite thing is not what our country stands for. This is elitism, snobbism at its worst.
And we can probably thank Hillary Clinton for the big hand-out and help-up to India.
We should be handing out and helping up our own American kids, not those of the Indian elite.
I have absolutely nothing against India or the people of India, but we are responsible for our own children, the children that we, as a nation, brought into the world. Let's take care of our American family before we start taking care of the families of others. Once our American family is taken care of, then we can help others.
It's not that I am opposed to helping others. But while we are out there helping Indian intellectuals and technicians, our own kids are struggling to get jobs. There is something terribly wrong with this, something terribly wrong.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Senate Immigration Bill May Push Back on Globalization
The long-awaited U.S. Senate comprehensive immigration bill, which could arrive in Congress on Tuesday, will likely contain provisions onerous to offshore outsourcing firms that are dependent on H-1B visas.
By Patrick Thibodeau
Mon, April 15, 2013
Computerworld - The long-awaited U.S. Senate comprehensive immigration bill, which could be released on Tuesday, will likely contain provisions onerous to offshore outsourcing firms that are dependent on H-1B visas.
The bill may be seen by India as an attack on its offshore outsourcing industry, which gets about 50% of its revenue from North American customers.
Indian officials and trade groups are already raising alarms in advance of the bill's release.
A bipartisan Senate group, the so-called "gang of eight," has been developing the bill. A hearing on the bill is expected on Friday.
Details remain murky, but sources close the negotiations are expecting that the bill will make it difficult for IT services firms to use large numbers of H-1B visas to hire workers.
Obstacles to H-1B visa use may include escalating fees that would rise with the percentage of a firm's U.S. workforce on a visa.
<>
Whatever Senate bill makes it out of committee still faces fights in the Senate and the House.
magic59
(429 posts)Silicon Valley only exists because CA had tuition free higher education. CA economy has been going downhill ever since they ended that program. Education is the key, not more Reaganomics.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)This is absolutely corporate whore crap!
I and many other tech workers in my profession as American workers have suffered unemployment and lowering of our wages over the economic downturn. And over the decades this has kept our wages down.
And this affects foreign workers too, as they are kept in as indentured slaves as a part of this program instead of being encouraged to get real green cards or apply for citizenship to work here. The latter two encourage them to ultimately be more a part of our American system, where they invest in it and therefore want to not just treat this as a temporary stop to return home to a society a 10th of our cost of living and use larger wages (but still lower than ours here) there, which IS why Bangalore is now numerically the tech capital of the world instead of Silicon Valley now in terms of tech employment.
If you want us to return to leadership of the world in terms of the tech sector like we used to, we need to stop letting these corporate shills take advantage of this CRAP!
I enjoy working with foreign workers, so I don't want to see them kicked out just to be an "all American" work force. That's a reason I moved to the west coast. But I want to see those that come here make more of an investment in being in this country and be able to compete on an even playing field and participate in our society's government, etc., and for us American workers not to have so many of our jobs go away to slave labor.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)The H-1B cap increase would come with many strings attached. Among the strings, there would be further compliance requirements and IT consulting firms like Tata or Infosys (which are the bad guys IMHO) would really suffer. In fact, some have already complained that if this immigration reform were to pass, those types of companies would not longer be able to afford doing business.
About the education thing. Look, I'm one of those evil legal immigrants. I was educated in my home country until the final years of high school. From then on, I was educated in the U.S. To me, one of the biggest differences between the U.S. and other systems is the lack of interdisciplinary well-rounded knowledge in U.S. schools. It's one hour of history, one hour of math, one hour of English, etc., but there's no interdisciplinary dialogue or discussion. In Italy, we would be discussing Baroque music, art, architecture, literature, history, science, math, etc. and how each discipline benefited from the other. We were already doing this in elementary school.
In particular, the ties between mathematics and music are very well known. In U.S. schools, students get to pick which classes to take beyond a set of required ones. In Italy, you have to study it all, whether you like it (or are good at it) or not.
In the U.S., testing is true/false or multiple choice, mostly. In Italy, testing is essay-based. Math tests are usually in the form of word problems. In Italy, you are tested and quizzed orally. The teacher will pick a student randomly. The student stands up. The teacher asks a question and the student must respond, but not simply by 'yes' or 'no.' The student must support the answer given by providing facts or proving equations or giving formulas or citing literary works or philosophers.
Italian schools are also not concerned with extracurricular activities or sports, unlike U.S. schools. While Italy is certainly not a top-tier system, my city's schools were - they have been studied by educators worldwide, in fact, especially at the elementary school stage.
I've been amazed at the lack of general knowledge that many U.S. college graduates and coworkers possess. These are assets that eventually surface in the workplace.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)I've seen hiring managers laugh in how they hired cheap H-1B laborers from these "body shops" that only hired foreign workers so that they can get around paying "competitive wages" paid to American citizen workers, since they didn't have any employees in their employ that were American citizens. And they didn't hire out these workers as "workers" but as "a service" so that the cost of what each employee working at a contracting company couldn't be measured since it was sheltered under the costs of the "service" umbrella that that body shop provided to contracting companies. As long as you leave loopholes that body shops exploit, this program will just grow.
If you force companies to pay competitive wages with what domestic American citizens need to pay for their families and their educations, then the amount of their "need" for H-1B visas would drastically shrink. They then probably would be seeking to moving work offshore, unless we remove incentives that allow them to do that too if they want to do business in our markets as "American companies".
When it takes those who want to be a part of this country and become citizens over TEN YEARS some times to have their citizenship applications moved through the system, then that is where our system is broken. That is what our founders would have wanted encouraged for those looking to become part of the American experience. A sense of investment to become a part of the American dream. Not just borrow some dollars and cents from it to have our wealth move outside of this country and to those at the top of this country.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)They'll do the same with any new ones.
Tough on Tata and their ilk. Tata runs cheap dormitories outside Washington DC for H1B visa workers. so they don't have to suffer the cost of housing here like the rest of us. If these H1Bs had to pay the prevailing rent prices, they wouldn't be able to afford to work here.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your claim is that there's new restrictions that will somehow prevent companies from lying about the job duties of H-1B visa holders.
So list them.
And perhaps you can show how those restrictions will actually work, given that lying about the job duties of H-1B visa holders was already illegal under the previous law?
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Just like everyone else said, what about US students who get out of college with tens of thousands of dollars in debt? Not freaking fair! Not to mention the H1b visas will most likely go back to their native countries after they gather enough money. Fuking sick.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I am so sick of corporate apologists who think Americans should starve, just so people from other companies can take our jobs, while the corporations laugh all the way to the bank.
Countries that send people here on H1B visas to rip off our jobs, should offer Americans an equivalent number of good paying jobs in exchange.
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Here's an even better idea: Maybe we should work towards creating a world that isn't governed by fear, hatred, and paranoia. I think a big part of that would be doing all we can to ensure that workers everywhere are paid a fair wage, have good working conditions, etc. Better still would be having open borders everywhere, so that people would face fewer obstacles in their attempt to make their lives and the world a better place.
Paul E Ester
(952 posts)Environmental regulations, worker regulations, business regulation, educational systems. The world really is apples and oranges.
Why would anyone open a dirty industry in the united states when they can operate it without regulation, oversight, with disposable labor someone else and import the product into the United States with no penalties. It's a win win for the rapacious capitalist locust.
We need to protect our country from these psychopathic businessmen.
alp227
(32,020 posts)
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Nobody is exempt from competing with cheap imported labor.
It's time to create job guarantees for all Americans to eliminate race-to-the-bottom wage competition.
A job with a living wage should be a guaranteed right for all. Not something we have to go out and beg for.
If we had that it would be easier to allow more immigrants because our money wouldn't be threatened.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts). . . with citizens equipped with Bachelors and Masters degrees getting laid off and subsequently having no employment prospects for weeks and months,
with wages that haven't moved in real dollars since 1979 in the face of a cost of living that's never decreasing and production that rises but doesn't share the spoils,
with wealth inequality that sees CEOs making 354 times what a worker makes,
with a corporate environment that's free to exaggerate (due to our emploYERs market) job qualifications, no matter if the job needs these qualifications or not, to where they want someone with a master's degree to know eight different apps/languages/whatever and be expected to work for $12/hr with no immediate benefits,
with student loan debt skyrocketing to all-time highs, crippling the unwilling participant beyond their abilities to pay,
with almost each and every period of prosperity it's seen in the past 31 the result of a speculative bubble of some kind (S & L, credit, tech, housing, finance, etc),
. . . with all this . . . this backwards corporate-batshit country wants to make our unemployment situation worse and further exacerbate race-to-the-bottom, laissez-fail Pure Capitalism, the very system we need to move away from and fast?
And there are supposed DEMOCRATS on this board that support this fucking crap?
Yeah, you know what? That's no better than how Dubya Mitt Romney thinks. That's no better than how neo-libs like Thomas Friedman think. Must be easy to dictate that our economy is not a zero-sum game when you're not the one that will ever be affected by the practice of job offshoring/inshoring. Must be easy to spout boilerplate faith-based garbage when you never had to deal with the humiliation of training your own replacement, as several on this board have had to do.
We have a serious problem in this country. Our workers are not some shit disposable commodity that you can just toss in the goddamned garbage at your leisure and expect this economy to continue functioning. Our workers are the most important part of a company's, and this economy's, success. It's not fiduciary duty to the shareholders (a bogus ideology that's written NOwhere in corporate law), it's the WORKERS that will make or break this country's progress. As the past 20 years have dictated, taking money, taking spending power, taking wealth out of the hands of the people who most need it and have to spend it is precisely the LAST thing we should be doing.
From late 1999-2009, when free trade of white-collar jobs got underway after the unwarranted blue-collar job destruction in the 1990s, we've had the WORST decade-long job creation record in modern history. The average period of long term unemployment soared and has still not recovered. Sons and daughters are now making, in relative wages, HALF of what their parents started off at. We work longer hours than our 1970s counterparts did. Corporate America can now get Mom AND Dad for what they used to be able to get mom OR dad for.
I'm really all ears, free traitors: How does capitalism continue when the only jobs will be ones that older workers can't retire from, middle-aged workers can't leave or get fired from at any cost, and younger workers won't be able to get?
Offshoring or automation is fast eliminating entry level positions and offshoring or bean counting is eliminating mid-level positions. It requires years of expensive education, experience and luck to land management. Is there no place for non-extraordinary people who just want to work for a living anymore? How exactly are people supposed to make a living??? Do you know or do you just plain and simple not CARE???
Someone logically explain to me how is this going to pan out. PLEASE. TELL me how this bullshit is a win-win when history is clearly NOT on your side on this issue.
OhioChick
(23,218 posts)This deserves a thread of it's own. I'd recommend it if I could. 
Crickets, I see.
markiv
(1,489 posts)to respond
antigop
(12,778 posts)nt
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Excellent statement .... Thanks !
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)unlike many DUers.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Any example in this thread of "furriner hatin'"?
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)This has nothing to do with merit based on skills. Workers with the necessary skills can be found here, and if there are not enough, they can be trained. This course of action is absolutely unacceptable with such high unemployment numbers. Plus, the legal immigration system for family members is already a massive PITA.
In summary, this course of action would make my wife's visa application process even slower than it is already being processed and bring immigrants over to take jobs I otherwise could have been eligible for. This definitely affects me, and probably a lot of you a lot more than you think.
