Steubenville Rape Trial: "These kids didn't know what they were seeing was rape," says advocate

[bettyellen]

Source: CBSNews.com

Hanna wrote on the OAESV's blog Thursday night that, "'A dead body' cannot consent." According to testimony from a forensic expert who examined the cell phones of the defendants and witnesses, the girl was repeatedly referred to as seeming "dead." The New York Times reports that Mays sent a text saying that the girl was "like a dead body."

"When you see someone vomiting, that's not the time to engage in any kind of sexual activity," says Hanna.Hanna says that the trial makes it clear that there is much more work to do to educate teens about sexual violence.

"There is an assumption about what rape is supposed to look like," says Hanna. "People think it is a violent act, using a weapon, perpetrated by a stranger. But that's not the reality of most sexual assaults."

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57574617-504083/steubenville-rape-trial-these-kids-didnt-know-what-they-were-seeing-was-rape-says-advocate/

---

Katie Hanna is the executive director of the Ohio Alliance to End Sexual Violence

She is commenting on how so many of these HS kids did not know how to classify this as rape. Whether it was because penetration was digital, the girl slightly conscious at some point, or because she liked one of the perps- was it a "date gone bad". Teenagers are surely confused. They SHOULD know better.

Her own friends were confused, and did nothing to intervene as they watched the tweets and FB posts too. It's more complicated than the dozen of so boys joking about it. It's about the kids who were appalled and yet felt unsure what it was, and what to do.

[ismnotwasm]

1. God, now *I* want to vomit

This whole thing is beyond disgusting

[caseymoz]

2. I'm skeptical. Did they really think . . .

. . . when she woke up she wouldn't have minded what they'd done? Maybe they thought they'd be allowed to get away with it due to her unconsciousness, but that's different from not knowing it wasn't rape. It's the same difference between being innocent in your heart and finding a loophole, which is what they thought they did.

[bettyellen]

12. I agree- but the article is about the kids witnessing it. And about ignorance about rape in general

[levp]

3. I thought...

...that it is the basic principle of justice: not knowing the law does not exempt one from following that law.
They didn't know what they were seeing was rape?! Try this next time: "I was just borrowing this stranger's car, I didn't know its called steeling!"

[marble falls]

4. They knew it was rape, and they knew it was wrong, and ignorance of the law is no excuse.....

and you don't get a freebie and smack on the butt and told "Don't do it again if there's a next time." Would they have thought it wronger if the the victim was their sister or girlfriend? They haven't any scintilla of deniability. They are at best guilty of failing to render aid or alerting authorities. I have no sympathy for them in any degree. They are accessories before and after the fact.

[bettyellen]

11. It's not about the perps- it's about the kids who witnessed it.

[marble falls]

15. I know that. The witnesses who stood around gawking, cheering on and photograpging ...

are perps, too. Would they have photo'd, gawked at and cheered on their sisters and girlfriends in the same situation, the same way? Failure to render aid. Failure to report. They stayed quiet after it came out, too. Accomplices before and after the fact. The wheel man in a robbery gets charged with murder if the victim in the store is killed, too. Whether they go to jail or not, these kids need to get ajudicated, too.

[bettyellen]

31. I agree-but to prevent this kind of inaction in the future- we have to educate the good kids

empower them so there is less confusion about what exactly they are seeing, so they can intervene with confidence.
I think the OP confused people that this was defending the perps, and not explaining the need for education among our youth.

[riqster]

56. Bullshit.

All respect for trying to see the good in everyone, but sexual violence is fucking obvious.

Those bystanders are trying to talk themselves out of trouble. They don't need cuddled, they need kicked.

[bettyellen]

60. cuddled? try EDUCATED and HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

neither of which is happening. kids are horribly ignorant. many think this shit is fine if it's a date.

[riqster]

61. I think that is the story they tell to get out of trouble.

No way anybody is that ignorant.

Keep in mind, what you are saying is the basis of the defense being used by the accused.

[bettyellen]

64. you do know there were loads of kids that witnessed nothing but her drunken stumbling?

and heard rumors she was being slutty, etc. they aren't in any trouble.

Kids being this ignorant is what allows shit like this to keep happening.

[riqster]

71. Again, I think you are too kind

Watching someone piss on a girl and doing nothing is not a choice based on ignorance.

Watching someone stick fingers and penises in an unconscious girl and doing nothing is not a choice based on ignorance.

Everyone knows these things are wrong. What they don't know is that they will be punished if they do them. Start locking rapists and their accessories up on a consistent basis, and you'll be surprised at how quickly these little snots become "aware".

[juajen]

69. No good kids were involved in this debacle, period.

[uppityperson]

91. Exactly. Thank you.

[Comrade Grumpy]

95. Uh, did you guys read the OP?

And how wide do you cast your net? There were apparently dozens of kids out partying that night. Are they all bad kids?

[azurnoir]

5. well I guess they do now huh

and if she was like a "dead body" isn't that necrophilia? but the boys will be boys, they didn't know any better" defense of these jerks is :

[iamthebandfanman]

6. sucks

for them...
since ignorance isn't an excuse when committing a crime :p

[qalex]

7. They called it rape themselves that night

The problem with their saying they "didn't know it was rape" is that a lot of the tweets that night made jokes about how it was indeed rape - including one that stated: "song of the night is Rape Me by Nirvana". The infamous Youtube video, made that night by one of the witnesses to the rapes, repeatedly uses the word - "she is so raped right now...". There were jokes that she was "so dead" she didn't move when anally penetrated, "she's dead man - that usually gets some sort of a reaction!" If you can bring yourself to watch it, it clarifies exactly what their understanding of what was happening was, and how unconscious she was. There are two young men so angry they are challenging the jokes... against three who think it simply hilarious. (One of the challengers on that video sent a text, in testimony, threatening one of the accused - to whom he is related - because he was a good friend of the victim, and was disgusted. He mentions jail as a likely outcome. This was the next day. Another challenger sent a text that simply said, "you are a felon.&quot

The really scary thing isn't that they didn't know it was rape - they called it rape themselves that night, and at least two of the boys there were appalled. It's that others, and the perpetrators, didn't think it mattered that they were describing what they'd done to her as rape.

[bettyellen]

10. It's not about the perps- it's about the kids who witnessed it.

[marble falls]

17. What's so hard for you to get: the witnesses are criminal, too.

[bettyellen]

19. I was responding to a post that wrongly assumed the article was about the rapists, NOT the witnesses

Is that too complicated for you?

[marble falls]

24. Hey bettyellen! I though maybe there was a missed communication. I enjoy your posts when I get to ..

see them! Sorry I got your Irish up.

[bettyellen]

27. no problem- I think it's true many suspected it was rape, but her own friends were not certain

the next day.
Many (otherwise good) kids could not decisively say they knew... they didn't witness the acts, wrongly thought that earlier consent was enough. There's an enormous amount of false info and confusion on the topic. Especially around that age.

[marble falls]

36. True. But in that this girl was the only girl there, did everybody think this was consensual? ....

When I was 15 or 16, a girl that was widely known for 'entertaining' several boys at a time was entertaining in a friends garage. A friend of mine was there and though he never laid a hand on her being intimidated by a crowd was arrested with the rest of them and was sent to the Boy's Industrial School.

If in the mid-sixties it was wrong and we knew it was wrong, teenagers in the age of YouTube, internet and cell phones know its wrong -especially if the girl is not actively participating, drug/drunked into it by house full of people who were in on it by being told about it before hand. They may have been 'witnessing' but that is not the same as being-innocent bystanders.

By the same token. I was in my thirties at a stag bachelor party and when the only girl showed up with a six pack I thought she went there by accident. After I found out why she was there - hired- I left embarrassed that this was going on and that I a veteran, collage graduate, survivor of the swinging sixties didn't figure it out before someone asked me if I wanted to participate.

This whole incident really, really bothered me. I am shocked that there is no empathy anymore. It could have been their sister or girlfriend. I saw some of the videos made after the fact by some of the witnesses and it was loud raucous and self congratulating. They knew and they tried to be totally uncooperative with investigating authorities after the fact. It was actually one of these witness videos that actually broke the investigation open. School authorities and coaches of the teams most of the participants played on also tried to clamp this one closed with the connivance local officials including law enforcement.

Unfortunately for us all, you are dead on the money - kids can be tricked into proffering testimony and unclear memory and the length of time from the crime to the trial will kill the effectiveness of their memory of the truth.

Justice will be incomplete in any case.

See you on the next thread.

[bettyellen]

44. I think most of the physical stuff happened in a smaller group, and there was gossip

swirling around that stuff had happened. The kids should have intervened and separated her from the crew and not allowed it to continue. They are lucky that one of two in the group have broken ranks.
But the other 40 kids who could have stopped it surely have issues understanding what consent is and what incapacitated means.

[seabeyond]

57. i agree. all of them knew. the coaches house they were at knew. the friends knew.

they were all afraid, in in cheer and play of it.

[uppityperson]

93. Here is the first line of the article, talking about those who saw the rape.

As she listens to the testimony of witness after witness who saw two Ohio teens allegedly rape a 16-year-old girl during a night of partying, Katie Hanna, the executive director of the Ohio Alliance to End Sexual Violence, says she can't help but think one thing: "These kids weren't clear what rape is."

[exboyfil]

105. I think they are still working

on what being a human is.

[tpsbmam]

50. Which is exactly what qalex keeps posting, adding a voice that sounds like this person is not only

following this case but in other posts sounds like he/she has some knowledge about the issue and adds a good voice here, as well as a proactive one by reporting a program that improves understanding of what constitutes rape better. Not sure why you keep misreading these posts. The poster does, though, disagree about the ignorance of the witnesses with a number of them calling it rape as they were witnessing it.

[bettyellen]

67. many MORE kids witnessed her stumbling but not the rape... the OP is about them.

[seabeyond]

68. but betty, many were seeing the pictures and video of a passed out girl being assaulted. nt

[bettyellen]

112. Do we know how many of the 50 kids saw?

Or how many thought this girl was just having a shitty date? Heard rumors she was being slutty?
In the blog linked in the article she said there were those who tried to stop her from going with the guys, but she insisted on going.
They got the wrong idea that she could make decisions - consent. Many wrongly think if you consent earlier you have to be vocal and withdraw it later. Lots of screwed up notions clouding the thinking of bystanders, I'm sure.

[uppityperson]

92. Wrong. First line in the article "As she listens to the testimony of witness after witness who saw..

As she listens to the testimony of witness after witness who saw two Ohio teens allegedly rape a 16-year-old girl during a night of partying, Katie Hanna, the executive director of the Ohio Alliance to End Sexual Violence, says she can't help but think one thing: "These kids weren't clear what rape is."

The article linked in the OP IS about those who witnessed the rape.


A paragraph before the ones quoted in OP also says

On Friday, two witnesses testified to seeing Mays and Richmond each put their fingers in the girl's vagina. One of the witness testified that he saw Mays attempt to get the girl to perform oral sex on him.

"None of these teens looked at what they saw as rape," says Hanna.

It IS about the witnesses to the rape.

[qalex]

97. Well, it certainly became about them after 10pm when you edited it and added that element in

Your original post, and the article you linked to, was solely about the witnesses to the rapes.

Were you unaware that a full edit history, including time stamps, is available on all posts? It does make goalpost moving very apparent.

[bettyellen]

110. I clarified because people mistakenly thought it was about the rapists themselves.

And it wasn't. So you have a problem with that?

In the blog that it was taken from- she talks about party goers who tried to help her and she refused- they were confused about her being able to give any sort of consent.
I don't think it's about the kids who directly witnessed the sexual activity- I do think they knew it was wrong, even if they are ignorant about digital penetration and the law.
For me about about those other 30 or so kids who were unclear enough to think her not crying for help indicated some sort of consent. Or that kissing the guy earlier doesn't imply consent. Their ignorance around incapacity and consent allows kids like them to operate with impunity.
Kids need to know where the lines are drawn so they can help shut down situations before they go this far.
Afterwards, when she's been pissed on and photographed looking dead- it's easy to say they knew then. But during the party, not as easy.
It's not about making excuses for the perps- it's about making it clear there was no excuse to allow this to happen.

[alp227]

37. Well said, and welcome to DU!

Too many men of my age (I'm in my 20s) are so nonchalant and indifferent to American rape culture. It's just plain embarrassing.

[qalex]

46. Thank you.

(And guys like you are the solution. We just need more of 'em!)

[freshwest]

38. I give credit to the angry guys and wonder if they created the blog Anonymous found?

[Kalidurga]

8. I think they did know....

They planned this attack and went to great lengths to get the victim to the party. They wanted her there specifically to rape her. Lets not sugar coat it, they knew and they committed conspiracy before the fact.

[bettyellen]

9. It's not about the perps- it's about the kids who witnessed it.

[Kalidurga]

13. I think many of them knew as well.

Of course that can't be proven.

[bettyellen]

18. only a few saw the acts, but most saw her completely incapacitated and should know

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

what that means.
Unfortunately many don't know that even if a person consented hours ago- when they are that incapcitated, they can no longer consent. Many grown ups also don't know that, or believe it's rape. Same with digital rape or husbands raping wives. A lot of people don't think any of that is rape. Some assume they were on a date, she had been going along with it, and she passed out. Too many people do not understand that would be rape also. It is a big gray area for way too many people.

[qalex]

14. The witnesses were the ones on record as calling it rape that night, not the accused

And those witnesses were split between those enraged and making threats/telling the boys they were felons/headed to jail, and those giggling uproariously as they told jokes about "her pussy is as dry as the sun... she is so raped!" So yes, in this instance, they knew. They just didn't think it mattered - and that is what is so very, very scary about this case, because most research on similar attacks, and guys will admit to graphic descriptions of rape as long as that word is never used at all. They don't see what they did as rape, and research also shows that public campaigns on consent and what it means can reduce the levels of sexual assault. These boys DID know. They had no empathy or concern - and they were all using the word rape themselves that same night, too. It's on video and saved tweets.

[bettyellen]

29. her own friends questioned what went on- and did not help. It's a bit more complex than you'd

like it to be.
in addition to the malicious behavior there was a lot of ignorance and confusion fueled by gossip. because kids don't always understand these things. they need to understand that digital rape counts too, that being too intoxicated nullifies prior consent, because when they are sketchy, they opt to give the perp the benefit of the doubt- and choose inaction.

[qalex]

35. Erm, I'm following the case, and her friends weren't present.

She chose to go with the boys when still somewhat compos mentis, despite her friends trying to persuade her not to, though they had no idea what would happen later. When her friends last saw her she had not yet been assaulted, so how could they help/call it anything? Her male friend was also not present and only learned of it when present for the infamous recording.

Please don't patronise someone simply for disagreeing with you and providing additional, factual information. The fact remains that a great deal of material in the public domain proves that the witnesses WERE using the term rape that very night - so I'm not sure why you keep citing kids who weren't present and didn't know what happened?

I'm happy to provide evidence in support of your point that most cases of this nature happen because the perps don't know it's rape, and horrifyingly nor do bystanders. I'm even happy to supply you with data on the Bystander Effect. But in this case it's pretty irrelevant, because as you've been told, witnesses are on tape and on saved tweets as calling what happened rape at that time, that night. What they chose to say later on is less important than what they said that night - and actually the young man who recorded one of the rapes, according to his own evidence, also said he regarded what he had seen as rape on reflection, though not violent so not qualifying at the time.

[bettyellen]

58. her friends were following tweets, FB posts and hearing about it that night, and she had to explain

to at least one friend that no.. she wasn't being slutty. Because her friends were getting the same info as the 40 kids who were also aware she was floundering - Info like it was a "date" and she was being "slutty".
too many people forgot to consider how important it is that she was legally and completely unable to consent. studies show kids are ignorant about consent, many are unaware that digital penetration is rape too. too large of a percentage were too unclear as it was happening. some still are after all is said and done.
that is messed up.

[qalex]

96. She wasn't in contact with her friends until the next day

And she was the one insisting she hadn't been slutty because the poor kid felt defensive. There's no evidence any of her friends said any such thing. They were worried and scared by posts that might have been jokes or might not - and then the video was posted online and her parents took action at that point.

There is a huge problem with people identifying rape as such, I agree. But not in this case. Far from it.

[seabeyond]

59. i can see lots of reason they did that. and how better to unconsciously protect oneself when being

a coward than to question what your own eyes are seeing.

they are kids. they were not prepared. it takes strong character to stand up against a group. they will convince themselves what they need to, to be the coward.

i get it. but, it was cowardly. and maybe this will be a lesson to speak up in the future.

this is not abnormal behavior. especially among this age group and the perpetrators involved.

[bettyellen]

62. yes, but only knowledge will empower them to know what the right thing is

too many have the attitude that there are different rules if you're dating, or if you have had a lot of sex, or consented earlier that day. Add the gossip mill calling her a willing slut, you do have to be smarter and gutsier to fight that. especially if you are not witnessing the crime itself- as the majority of kids did not.
very sad that these kids were so wrong headed that night. they weren't all cheering it on, many more just had clay feet. understanding why is very important.

[seabeyond]

66. i can agree with this. but... i cant give a lot of slack. thinking back to a kid.... what would

in that situation? i do not know. i know even then i was aggressively bold. but, like i say, there is a lot of pressure there. i cannot believe that many of us would see or hear about a passed out girl being assault and not step in to stop it.

[bettyellen]

70. the OP is about the hapless people who saw her stumble and heard rumors

I thought it was kind of obvious it wasn't about the kids who were yelling "Rape, yay!" .
I guess it wasn't. From what I understand there were loads of kids who had concerns but not enough information (and yes, courage) to feel secure about doing something.

Weird how a post about the need for better education for teens can be read as making excuses for the rapist. I don;t think it;s THAT unclear, LOL.

[seabeyond]

72. we literally live in a culture where this kind of entertainment is a norm for our kids and all the

reast of us. confusing? hell yes.

[bettyellen]

74. if she had any chance at all, it was destroyed by the stupid messages that kids get, yes...

I know there was a core group of witnesses who enjoyed it, and it's horrid. But the idea that all fifty kids were fine with this- I don't buy that. Lot's of them did not cheer it on, but still it was not wrong or disturbing enough to act in some way. It's worthwhile examining why.

[uppityperson]

94. What about these 2 who did witness the rape yet didn't look at it as rape?

On Friday, two witnesses testified to seeing Mays and Richmond each put their fingers in the girl's vagina. One of the witness testified that he saw Mays attempt to get the girl to perform oral sex on him.

"None of these teens looked at what they saw as rape," says Hanna.

[bettyellen]

116. and her two "friends" who apparently think it was no big deal- she asked for it by consenting to

leave with the players. her own best friends also blamed her.
someone needs to educate these kids in no uncertain terms.
i have no doubt some are unreachable and are going to do what they are going to do. but they are young and unprepared for shit like this.

[freshwest]

39. Yes - it was planned and carried out by a cruel, callous group.

[Blandocyte]

16. This is so effed up

I hope the parents are also charged with anything possible. That's some piss poor daddying going on.

[bettyellen]

77. the coaches who hosted should be held accountable.

[In_The_Wind]

20. OMG! like a dead body ... that's wonderful. Just fuggin' wonderful!

[freshwest]

33. Ain't it though? They don't look too worried in court:

Looks like 'Business As Usual' from my keyboard. More details American media won't bother to tell us:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2293596/OMG-Please-tell-isnt-true-The-horrifying-moment-Ohio-footballers-rape-victim-discovers-TEXT-happened-passed-drunken-night.html?ICO=most_read_module

[In_The_Wind]

40. It's a good damn thing that I cannot go there!

They wouldn't like me very much.

[freshwest]

43. I hear you!

[In_The_Wind]

45. My anger against these rapist is a personal one.

I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.
I'd like to speak with of the perps for one hour.

[freshwest]

47. I can't say much on a public message board. But I doubt they'd listen to a survivor.

They have a script in their minds already, provided by Rush and other of his ilk.

[In_The_Wind]

49. I can say that I think Rush is disgusting.

[riqster]

75. Me, too.

I don't think I'd like to "speak" to them for an hour. I can think of far more effective ways to breach them a lesson. Because it's pretty god damned obvious that neither of these needledicked shits listen to much of anything.

[In_The_Wind]

99. I meant exactly what I said:

In my lifetime I have been:
An Investigator for Child Protective Services.
The Chair for a twelve-step program for Sex Addicts Anonymous: Court mandated pedophiles had no choice but to hear what their evil despicable acts caused to everyone of their victims.

I cannot allow my voice to become silenced again.

[riqster]

101. Bless you for the good work you do

Clearly, I have a long way to go.

[In_The_Wind]

102. Please keep this first and foremost in your mind: Do No Harm To Yourself!

[img][/img]

My journey has not been an easy one. It's not what I ask for. But someone needs to do it.
This is one of the times when that someone should be me.


Thank you!

Be good to yourself.

[riqster]

104. Thank you again

[In_The_Wind]

107. No problem.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
go for a walk in the sunshine

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Why did that article put Victim in scare quotes?

what the hell

[Brigid]

21. The hell they didn't know.

Laughing, joking, having a great time. Forget that nonsense

[bettyellen]

23. i think they suspect, but want to believe otherwise....

In which case, education is still key.

'In a study released this week, conducted by GfK Public Affairs and Corporate Communications, it highlighted the following: “53 percent would find it difficult to intervene, and 40 percent wouldn’t even know what to do if they witnessed such a crime. 62 percent of young men and women said they would be willing to help if they witnessed dating violence or a sexual assault, but only 46 percent of males thought they would recognize such a crime.”'


http://www.oaesv.org/steubenville-oaesv-responds/

[qalex]

42. The most successful reduction strategy

has been in Ontario, where a campaign aimed at educating young men on what consent actually is achieved a 10% reduction in sexual attacks - it was called the "Don't be That Guy" campaign.

Additionally, research indicates that many, many young men will agree they have raped someone if the act is graphically described, but never called rape. Just as disturbingly, equally large numbers of young women will agree the events described happened to them, but do not regard themselves as having been raped: http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf

Unfortunately as the Zerlina Maxwell furore illustrates, it's not a popular perspective, suggesting that young men and boys be educated better on consent. It's far more popular to police women's behaviour instead.

None of which is really that relevant to this case, though, despite the attempts to draw parallels. Because the young men involved - by which I mean the witnesses - called it rape themselves at the time. It's on record that they did.

As to claims that people would help/intervene - well, the Bystander Effect posits that as unlikely unless the inherently wrong nature of what was happening was identified. What really needs to happen is education on consent, which should be compulsory at school level and then at college level, as part of freshman orientation. And failure to involve the authorities, if a student at any educational institution discloses, should itself be a criminal offence. At the moment, places like Amherst have a built-in disincentive and no incentive whatsoever to take sexual offending seriously. Therefore their instinct is to persuade the victim she was mistaken on what happened.

[tpsbmam]

51. Thanks for adding that info and welcome to DU!

Yours has been an informative voice on this thread. Thanks!

[bettyellen]

53. we know about the witnesses who called it rape - but there are 30-40 other kids there

who were concerned- but also very confused.

[qalex]

90. They didn't witness anything.

They heard gossip, and some were angry and concerned and others found it hilarious - but they didn't witness anything or have the chance to intervene. Those who did called it rape quite explicitly, so your point - that people might have intervened had they identified it as wrong - is simply incorrect. They knew it was rape full well. I quote:

When asked by the prosecution why he didn't stop it, Westlake said the act wasn't violent and he always pictured rape involving violence.

Back at the Howarth house, he said he recorded Michael Nodianos making the infamous12-minute video that was posted on YouTube. In the recording, Nodianos is seen making crude comments about the incident.

Westlake said he regretted making the video.

So he didn't think it was rape... except he made the video that night in which he told all the others what he'd seen, and called it rape. He giggled endlessly about how hilarious her rapes were, in fact. They all called it rape on that video, in detail. The only argument was whether that mattered or not. Two were arguing that it was a terrible crime, and the others said they didn't care. Because she wasn't their sister. So yes, they understood very well what it was, and the seriousness.

All the boys at the later parties were calling it rape when told about it or witnessing it. Her friends weren't there to hear that and heard horrible online hints she'd been raped, but weren't able to get in contact (obviously). She told them she hadn't been slutty because the poor girl felt defensive. You are putting words in her friends' mouths by claiming they felt similarly. There is not an iota of evidence of any such thing. They contacted her very concerned, as soon as they were able, but they had no idea what was happening, any more than those who'd just seen her very drunk and stumbling. She couldn't tell them because she didn't know herself. And the kids who did know... called it rape.

I agree with you that in general naming the act is a real issue. But it is not and was not in this case, where the direct witnesses used the word themselves. The others were not witnesses, in any sense, because they didn't see anything - yet several were told a rape had happened, too. So how is witnesses failing to identify the crime, and thus not intervening, any sort of an issue in this case? The only ones unsure as to what had happened weren't told directly and weren't there. That's a very loose definition of "witness" (or even "bystander&quot and not one the law would share.

[bettyellen]

55. THIS!! >>the Bystander Effect posits that as unlikely unless the inherently wrong nature of what<<<

was happening was identified."

education is key. Thank you. And welcome!

[Dawson Leery]

22. Horrible people. Absolutely horrible.

[benld74]

25. They knew exactly what they were doing and now they are fighting for their lives,

and will say anything to make the victim look bad and what they did nothing.

[bettyellen]

30. yes, but it happened because too many witnesses were unsure WTH was going on....

and in some minds, a "date gone bad" might not be rape. Her own friends were confused and concerned- and did nothing.
It wasn't just dudes cheering her on who witnessed it- there were plenty of concerned people who felt they did not know for sure what was happening.
Education is important.

[benld74]

109. Agreed to that, then its the parents who don't teach their kids what to,

look out for, to protect who they are out with that need lectures as well.
Have times changed THAT much where teens keep their mouths shut just because they think their friend is allowing something to happen to them? I KNOW my kids would not, they would speak up and out and loud to anyone.
Or was it because of WHO was doing it and where it was happening that kept their mouths shut?

[spooky3]

26. But, but, but...

Some DUers insist that there is no need to educate boys and young men about rape because "we all know what it is."

[uppityperson]

28. "rape" is not just a stranger in a dark alley with a knife. I am appalled that they think it is.

[libdude]

32. Reality check

Having worked many years with convicted felons, two facts stood out,
I can count on one hand the number of times that a straight out admission of guilt was made.
The second fact is to minimize the crime. In otherwords, it was all trumped up, it was a set up, things just sort of blew up.
I don't buy this self serving story that it did'nt look like rape. This allows the witnesses, their.parents, the people that had knowledge of this crime and the accused to explain away a serious criminal act, to minimize it.
This all victimizes the victim again and again.
If these defendants are found guilty, they should be shown no leniency, to do so will do them no favors.
As I was instructed many years ago, criminal behavior is basically a disregard for the rights of others.

[bettyellen]

34. it's really about the majority of witnesses who were too unsure of what was happening

and that group would include her friends as well. they were very concerned - but questioned what happened too.

It's not about the perps at all- but why those concerned did not act. And if we want to change things, that's important to think about.

[Unknown Beatle]

41. They didn't know it was rape?

They called themselves The Rape Crew, for fucks sake!

[iamthebandfanman]

48. they knew what was going on,

they were just to low life to stand up to their peers and do something about it..

as far as im concerned, anyone who was around them while this was going on should get charges as well...

it not being 'cool' to stop ur peers raping spree fun isn't a valid excuse :p

I was once at a party when I was like 14 years old..
there was a girl there who was 17 I think and was totally smashed.. I mean, couldn't walk..couldn't barely talk... I mean drank way to much..
anywho
she started getting sick so I decided to help her by taking her to the bathroom and what not..
well
I started noticing one of the 'jock' kids eyeing her..
she finally didn't make it to the bathroom on one trip and was sick on her clothes... her friend said she had some extra in her car...
so I left her in the bathroom (I had to help her get her clothes off) and told her to lean against the door until I came back (so nobody could get in, and her friends were useless at helping her.. some friends)...
well
I went and got the friends clothes out of their car and went back to the bathroom... where I discovered the jock and his dumbshit friend trying to get into the bathroom knowing how messed up and sick she was (on top of being naked)... yet they were seriously trying to get in there to get sexual with her..and on top of that were making jokes and laughing about the fact they were...
at this point I said oh hell no and told them to get the fuck out of the house we were in... I got the person in charge of the house to come tell them the same thing...
long story short, me and a group of guys literally had to threaten them with a beating of a lifetime to get them to leave..

ive been in these situations and glady and thankfully been able to stop them...

its something that has really made me dislike my gender for most of my life... I mean, how sick and twisted can u be?

btw, I got the girl her clothes and got her into a bed (by herself lol) and guarded the door the rest of the night and she was fine the next day

[bettyellen]

83. good on you for doing that.

I thought the majority at the party did not witness anything sexual. they heard innuendo that she was being a slut, jokes and stuff but not everyone got the tweets and saw what was really happening. but I agree they should have put it together that she was endangered and acted on it.

[Historic NY]

52. Is she an advocate or a moron....

if she is claiming high school kids in their mid to late teens don't know about intercourse and getting their end wet then she need her head examined. Even having sex with a dead body is wrong..... she is acting as the excuse not a solution.

[bettyellen]

54. knowing about "getting you end wet", please. she is an advocate for more education... and if you

think these kids education should end at dead body, and not truly understanding what incapaciated or consent is, that's kind of sad. Most of these kids did not witness the penetration, and sadly many believe this is just what happens when you get to drunk on a date. Survey after survey has proven young people have idiot notions about rape. And that only helps the rapist operate without LE being called in.

Seriously did anyone read how this is about the 40-50 kids who saw the girl staggering and throwing up? And NOT the perps?
Sheesh.

[davidthegnome]

63. Part of the question...

is HOW to react. A number of people might have reacted violently, attacking the perps, which could have led to an all out brawl, or a few people getting their asses kicked by the larger group. Still... I'm not sure I could have restrained myself from violent behavior in that case... personal experience really changes one's perspective on such matters. I would have wanted to rip those jerks apart, the adrenaline pumping through my veins might have been too much to even let me dial 911. I don't like to think of what I would have done had I been one of the crowd seeing this. I'd likely be in jail.

What bothers me the most is that this was... encouraged, allowed, laughed at by so many. No. Not bothers me. Enrages me. I can understand your point about education, about knowing the right sort of reaction - which in this case, would have been to alert the authorities... but the authorities take time to get there. To spare someone in that situation from even a moment of the horror, I would have to intervene. Even if it meant assault charges. All things considered, not being Bruce Lee, I'd have probably gotten beat up pretty bad... but I would have tried to stop them even so. Some things are worth the risk of pain, even the risk of losing your life.

This behavior is completely unacceptable on so many levels. I just can't wrap my head around it. I like to think of most people as being generally good, as having generally good intentions, wanting to do the right thing. It's times like this that I stop and wonder if that's simply evidence of extreme naivete.

It's depressing that we have to even consider this. What they did was wrong. Those who stood by watching and did nothing were also wrong. This should be obvious even to young teens, if it isn't, then we as a society are doing yet another thing fundamentally wrong, in regards to educating our children.

I'm all in favor of teaching about consent. Yet we should also expect people to use common sense... if someone had been murdering that girl... would the crowd then have jumped in? Would they have even noticed? I'm so disgusted and depressed.

[juajen]

65. What a bunch of crap. Are they trying to say that this was a frequent

occurence? Nobody with a brain in their head would think that this was ok or normal behavior. They're afraid of being accused as accessories to the crime. Despicable!

[siligut]

73. I get the impression that rape is a common thing in Steubenville

These football players are local heroes and people are used to just looking the other way. Remember, before Anonymous got involved, the town attorney had talked the girl out of prosecuting. So all of this was just going to be another football hero's adventure and a girl's life and reputation ruined for daring to snub the asshole.

[PDJane]

78. There were no innocent bystanders.

And the issue of consent is not an issue; she was incapable of consent. Rape, by definition, cannot be consented to. Being drunk and drugged and raped in a very public venue puts the onus on those around her to defend her. They knew it was rape, they knew it was wrong, and it has been going on long enough that it's obvious that the parents of these young people see it as a 'boys will be boys' thing. They should have a huge dent in their reputations, they shouldn't be able to play college football. They need to know it's wrong, and their damn parents should be pointing out that it was wrong and always has been wrong.

The football team are not young gods; they're privileged young men who think they should be able to have whatever they want, including sex with any young woman whom they desire. it's just obscene, and the whole damn place needs to be re-educated.

[bettyellen]

79. who made an issue of consent?

[PDJane]

80. That's what the defence is. That she consented.

The young men's lawyers and the young men have stated that she was 'coming on' to them, and she was participating, when the tape shows no such thing; they show a young woman incapable of consent, and unable to know what was happening to her.

[bettyellen]

81. I meant in the OP. But thanks!

[Beacool]

82. And pray tell, what the hell did they think that it was?????

They knew that what was going on was wrong. Even small children know when they do wrong. So these bastards knew perfectly well that they were not supposed to be doing what they were doing to these girls.

[bettyellen]

84. one last time, not at all about the rapists themselves, but about many kids at the party.

And obviously not the smaller group celebrating it.
I guess no one read the OP or link.

[PDJane]

85. You're not listening. One more time. I did read the article.

There were no innocent bystanders at those parties. These people were used to seeing such things, and didn't comment because these guys were, you know, the football team....the rape squad.

Of course, they could have gone against the tide, but people will behave in a crowd in ways they won't when they are alone.

It's time to teach all the young people at those parties, all the perpetrators and the witnesses, that this is wrong behaviour.

Simply by contact, these young people consented to the rape and debasement of this young woman, and they should be held accountable.

[bettyellen]

86. wasn't responding to you, but someone else commenting about the rapists themselves.

which is a bit odd. anyway...

I largely agree with you, especially this:


"It's time to teach all the young people at those parties, all the perpetrators and the witnesses, that this is wrong behaviour."

Exactly!

[chervilant]

87. Katie Hanna

has alleged that "These kids didn't know what they were seeing was rape," citing research-driven 'conclusions' that have been proffered for at least two generations. I am dismayed that the 'executive director of the Ohio Alliance to End Sexual Violence' would presume to know what "these teens" know about rape. Today's teens know more, and they know it younger.

Perhaps it's advisable to acknowledge that many of us don't want to believe that someone we admire -- or our precious, athletically-gifted children -- could commit such heinous crimes. We have similar responses to child sexual abuse and elder abuse: what William Ryan calls "Blaming the Victim" taken beyond a myopic level.

Perhaps, too, we can admit that those who adjure that they were 'confused' and 'didn't know' are struggling with guilt -- and will endure a lifetime of "what if?"...

[PDJane]

88. Sorry, a lifetime of what if isn't enough.

They are too liable to simply forget it and move on, blaming the victim in the process.

[chervilant]

89. I agree completely.

After more than 30 years of advocacy for survivors of relationship violence, I've had enough of (often willfully ignorant) individuals minimizing or externalizing personal responsibility. There's a reason we call people who are incapable of empathy 'sociopaths.'

[Shivering Jemmy]

106. Lacking empathy does not mean you can't be moral

If empathy is a feeling most people have, it's one I don't think I experience very often. But morality can simply be logical generalization across circumstances.

I get tired of people treating sociopathy, a prevalent personality type, like something non-human.

[chervilant]

108. "Blaming the Victim"

by William Ryan richly illustrates how our species defines those among us, whose behaviors (morals, attitudes, psychological makeups, etc) we find reprehensible, as 'other than' the rest of us -- sub-human (or non-human, as you've noted). By making a 'loosely defined' group 'other than,' we can then label their defining characteristics pathological, so that we can deny any vestige of such pathology in ourselves.

[Ash_F]

98. "Rape is Rape" - President Barack Obama

People didn't intervene because they are either predators themselves or they were frightened and cowed by the predators. People need to stand up and society needs to support those that do.

[LTG]

100. For those advocating charging witnesses to this heinous crime

I totally agree, many there knew what was happening was wrong and either approved or chose to remain silent. As such, many such could, and should be charged and held accountable.

It is my understanding that those who have testified to seeing her being digitally penetrated/raped, etc, did so only under a grant of immunity from the judge. When questioned about the incident before trial they pleaded the 5th and refused to say anything.

This shows that they knew that not only what they saw was wrong, but had finally had someone, probably a lawyer hired by their parents, convince them that their presence and behavior was also criminal and they were subject to punishment.

Their testimony is not out of guilt over their own inaction, or after-the-fact compassion for the poor victim. It is too save their own sorry, sick and depraved asses. It is too bad that they will not be held accountable, but evidently their testimony was deemed necessary to get a conviction.

[Threedifferentones]

103. WIsh I could say I were surprised.

There ain't enough money in the world to make me say that, what a sick fuck this "advocate" is.

[marshall]

111. I wonder if Whoopi considers this rape or "rape-rape"?

As far as I know she never clarified her bizarre remark, but this will likely be discussed on The View. She may yet get a chance to explain.

[judesedit]

113. That's bullshit.These kids knew exactly what they were doing & r pitifully exposed to sex by age 10

if not before that, including every kinky sex you can think of. Give thanks to the media, greedy video game creators, cheesy television and movie producers and the necessity for both parents to hold down outside jobs. Not to mention all of the stuff they can send and get on their cellphones or computers or see in magazines. Spare me with your naivety. It's very sad. I don't even want to see that crap, which is sometimes shown on primetime tv. They try to send the message that nudity is bad, but it's everywhere you look. And is a huge $$$$$$ making industry for these hypocrites. If the "holy rollers" would treat nudity as natural and a normal every day thing like in Europe, the rape statistics would go way down. Legalize prostitution so we know our cheaters and less sociable are having sex with someone who's had their shots. There'd probably be less serious affairs, too.

Wake up. It's too late to go back.. but to be in total denial is another thing. These kids need to be seriously punished so everyone learns that if they do this, there will be consequences. Period.

[bettyellen]

114. It's not about the perps, but thanks!

[Doctor_J]

115. A particularly hot corner of hell

awaits women who advocate for rapists (or, in this case, rape enablers)

[winter is coming]

117. That's some seriously fucked up shit.

Whether they knew it met the definition of rape, they should have known it met the definition of "wrong".

[bettyellen]

119. her friends turning against her as if she deserved it- have no clue what incapacitated is...

and have internalized some very negative stuff about women and men. Seriously fucked up shit is right!
I hope today they are learning how wrong they were. They should know better.

[cbrer]

118. Aah Yes! I recognize the morality of the Bush years...

Or lack thereof.

Bastards.