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Omaha Steve

(99,667 posts)
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 10:01 PM Mar 2013

Boeing 787 battery fire was difficult to control

Source: AP-Excite

BY JOAN LOWY and JOSHUA FREED

WASHINGTON (AP) - Firefighters and mechanics tried repeatedly to put out a battery fire aboard a Boeing 787 Dreamliner through smoke so thick they couldn't see the battery, according to documents released Thursday that portray the incident as more serious than previously described.

The Jan. 7 fire at Boston's Logan International Airport is under investigation by the National Transportation Safety board, which released laboratory analyses, interviews and other data it has gathered so far. It still hasn't been able to pinpoint the cause.

Federal Aviation Administration officials are expected to make a decision in the next few days on whether to approve a plan by Boeing to revamp the 787's lithium ion batteries to prevent or contain future fires. Once the plan is approved, Boeing hopes to swiftly test the reconfigured batteries and get the planes back in the air.

Dreamliners worldwide have been grounded since a second battery incident led to an emergency landing in Japan nine days after the Boston fire. The incidents have raised questions about the safety of using lithium ion batteries, which are more susceptible to igniting if they short-circuit or overheat than other types of batteries. The episodes also have called into question the FAA's process for certifying the safety of new aircraft designs.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20130308/DA4SJGSO1.html





In this Jan. 24, 2013 file photo, Joseph Kolly, director National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Office of Research and Engineering, holds an fire-damaged battery casing from the Japan Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner that caught fire at Logan International Airport in Boston, at the NTSB laboratory in Washington. An investigation of a battery fire aboard a Boeing 787 shows mechanics and firefighters made repeated, unsuccessful attempts to put out the blaze through smoke so thick they couldn’t see the battery. The documents released Thursday by the National Transportation Safety Board paint a more dangerous picture of the Jan. 7 fire than previously portrayed. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta, File)

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Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
1. There are multiple lithium ion chemistries, Boeing used lithium cobalt, the most unstable one
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 10:19 PM
Mar 2013

They used the cobalt version because it has the most power storage per pound, evidently that was not a thoroughly thought out decision.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
2. But this is not new -
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 11:48 PM
Mar 2013

Early on in the investigations of how to power electric autos, engineers knew this about lithium cobalt. So how did it escape Boeing's attention?

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
3. It's the first time lithium ion has been used on an airplane
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 12:25 AM
Mar 2013

There was apparently a political element to choosing the supplier, and they were mounted too close together. And as Fumesucker noted, the iron flavor is far more stable than cobalt.

Thermal runaway is pretty ugly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/business/selection-of-the-boeing-787s-battery-maker-raises-questions.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. Even worse, they evidently exceeded the cell's specifications
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:22 AM
Mar 2013

65 Ah cells rated for 5C or 325 A and the BMS was set to 580 A with a 2.5 V low voltage cutoff.

What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/2013/boeing_787/interim_report_B787_3-7-13.pdf

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
10. Are you kidding us? Jeesh!
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:56 PM
Mar 2013

Any time I think of the TSA patting people down to locate the nefarious and sinsiter finger nail clippers, so the passenger can then board a Dreamliner running on these combustible batteries ! AIEYAEI!

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,579 posts)
9. The quest for profits
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:46 PM
Mar 2013

must not be impeded! Certain corners get cut, and the cutting of those corners will be designed to hold the least important person in the decision chain responsible.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
6. NTSB report shows Boeing’s battery analysis fell short
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:27 AM
Mar 2013

The most detailed report yet on the
lithium-ion battery fire on a 787 Dreamliner in January provides no answers on the root cause, but sheds new light on the safety analysis done by Boeing and its subcontractors to win Federal Aviation Administration certification and how that analysis fell short.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released a voluminous set of documents Thursday from its investigation into the intense and persistent fire on the Japan Airlines jet parked at Boston’s Logan Airport.

Among the findings are Boeing mistakenly ruled out any potential causes of a battery fire other than an overcharge and failed to predict the battery’s erratic behavior on the day of the fire.

Still, the interim report lacks clear answers, and that increases the pressure on the FAA as the aviation regulator weighs whether to approve Boeing’s proposed battery fix, with an initial ruling expected next week.

That pressure will continue. The NTSB said Thursday it plans two public hearings next month, one to explore lithium-ion battery technology in general, and another to discuss the design and certification of the Boeing 787 battery system.

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020505762_ntsb787reportxml.html

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5703638/

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
7. Boarding an airliner is one thing
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:38 AM
Mar 2013

Knowing how supremely complex their systems are is another. I've built model airplanes and real ones. From balsa to litium ion - there's all degrees of complexity and chance. The average rube - airline traveller - who gripes about seat size - would have something else bother them if they were given a look into the electronics bay (or any other "inner workings area&quot of a modern flying bus.
The point I'm getting at is that when a new design takes to the skies, it can take time for the fallibility of human engineering to surface. Look at that cargo door mis-engineering some years back - or the shorted wire over the center fuel tank on 747s. Both those instances involved what was really old technology simply applied shortsightedly. But this Dreamliner - with a fair amount of cutting edge technology incorporated - it's got an even higher than normal quotient of risk built in.

If we held back and waited for THE perfect conveyance to come along, we'd still be cowering in caves and clubbing mammoths.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
11. Agreed. Except in this case, the airplane battery engineers had a lot of
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 03:59 PM
Mar 2013

Data going back some twenty years, when the electric car companies were finding out which batteries were safe to use and which were not. And the fact that they chose to not only use the lithium cobalt battery, so combustible, and then exceed the specs!

Any group of scientists who doesn't use the input of those who came before them, especially given the importance of having a safe airplane, should be shot.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
12. I concur with what you're saying.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 04:31 PM
Mar 2013

Thing is - someone at Boeing made a concious decision to incorporate this type of battery. And I'd bet they didn't skimp on engineering the plane and the battery in haphazard fashion. I was an aircraft electrician for years. Part of those years I was employed at Lockheed - working on C-130 & C-5 aircraft production lines. Every wire - every connection - every component location as well as the proximity of other wires and components - are calculated and then blueprinted into standards. I used to call engineering out to the line on occassion, to suggest alternatives to things I saw as problematical or not cost effective. Even if at a glance, my idea made sense and seemed like a logical improvement, they'd take notes and photos and get back to me a week or two later. If they agreed with me, my idea would be incorporated for all future such assemblies. But never was anything just cavalierly acknowledged as a plus and accepted.
I'm betting we're gonna hear that the battery maker is gonna get the blame when all the smoke clears. BTW, my very first official assignment when I was an electrician fresh out of technical training was the squadron battery shop. It was all Ni-Cads back then.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
13. I'm a regular on a forum that has a lot of hands on experience with lithium cells in transportation
Sat Mar 9, 2013, 03:37 PM
Mar 2013

The great majority of the posters there seem to think the problem is likely a combination of things with picking the most volatile lithium chemistry for these cells being the prime cause.

Evidently the Battery Management System (sometimes known as the Battery Murder System) was set to exceed some ratings of the cells in the batteries in question, ratings that were established by the cell manufacturer.

Drawing 580A from cells rated at 325A is not good practice. Discharging lithium cobalt cells to 2.5V is also bad practice, anything below 2.7V is just asking for trouble with them, unlike nicads lithium cells really don't like to be discharged completely and sometimes respond to this sort of abuse by catching on fire. As you can see from the graph below, 3.0V is just about completely discharged.





ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
8. Let's amend this "jaw-dropping" finding and simplify it.
Fri Mar 8, 2013, 10:51 AM
Mar 2013

Fire is difficult to control
Chemical Fire is difficult to control
Battery Fire is difficult to control
Boing 787 chemical battery fire is difficult to control.

Any one of them works just fine. Any one of them says the same thing. The reason that we have so few bad products in our country is because of something that conservatives labeled socialist, even communist - Underwriter's Laboratories. It tested, it created minimum standards for pretty much everything we see around us, it certified, and it tested again. Your parents can probably tell you what the "UL" label meant for buyers in the 60s and 70s. It meant that that hair dryer or coffee maker wasn't going to paralyze them, electrocute them, or burn their house down.

Pity there is no UL for lithium battery designs.

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