Zimmerman Stuns Court, Waives Right to 'Stand Your Ground' Hearing in Trayvon Martin Case

[Tommy_Carcetti]

Source: ABC News/Yahoo

George Zimmerman's attorneys stunned court observers Tuesday when they waived their client's right to a "Stand Your Ground" hearing slated for April that might have led to a dismissal of the charges in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin a year ago.

However, the defense lawyers didn't say whether they would waive the immunity hearing outright. They left open the possibility for that hearing to be rolled into Zimmerman's second degree murder trial. Zimmerman, a former neighborhood watch captain in his Florida subdivision, shot and killed the teen, who was visiting a house in the area.

The move allows the defense more time to prepare for the trial this summer, but also raises the stakes.

Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law entitles a person to use deadly force if he believes his life is threatened, and absolves them of an obligation to retreat from a confrontation, even if retreat is possible.


Read more: http://gma.yahoo.com/zimmerman-stuns-court-waives-stand-ground-hearing-trayvon-162305101--abc-news-topstories.html

---

Looks like Zimmerman is willing to roll the dice with the jury.

Wonder how much a jury will buy some of the glaring holes in his story.

[niyad]

1. once again, yahoo, he was NOT a "neighborhood watch captain"--he was nothing more than a

vigilante.

[Progressive dog]

4. Wasn't he retroactively self promoted to neighborhood watch captain? nt

[niyad]

7. pretty much

[yurbud]

18. it would be fewer words to say "neighborhood vigilante" too

[AAO]

31. But 1 extra syllable!

[yurbud]

144. and some TV reporters might think it's a new kind of SUV

[AAO]

149. yurbud - I may be culturally behind, I was born in '54 after all...

But please explain your response for us clueless folk (whether young, old, or like me, "I don't know what you are referring to&quot because if an SUV is a "Sports Utility Vehicle" then I don't know what the hells going on and I'm only on my second Martini!!

ON Edit: My martini is Grey Goose from the freezer, + 2 bleu cheese stuffed olives (no vermouth, no dirty). Just for the curious!

[yurbud]

153. I meant the TV reporters wouldn't know what a vigilante is

so they might think it sounds like a new kind of SUV.

So you are not as snoshed as you think yet (but you posted a while ago, so you could be spontaneously combusting by now).

[AAO]

154. Yeah, even enough Grey Goose will give you a splitting headache.

Now that I understand, that's pretty funny. "The new 2013 Dodge Vigiante".

[yurbud]

157. You could probably come up with a whole line of cars like that to appeal to right wingers:

the Chrysler Grand Klegal

the Isuzu Ignoramus

the Mitsubishi Misogynist

the Honda Homophobe

the Chevy Chauvinist

the Jeep Jingo

and so on...

[AAO]

158. And don't forget the famous "Bentley My Ass!".

[tblue]

57. Yep. That's exactly what he was.

He belongs in the pokey. He still out on bail?

[csziggy]

120. Yeah, he's out on bail - with an ankle bracelet

The judge jacked up the bail when he found out that Zimmerman's wife lied to him and added the ankle bracelet when he found out that Zimmerman had turned in an old passport and didn't tell him there was a second passport.

Letting him out does two things - it saves the taxpayers money and it actually costs the defense money because they have to provide some sort of security7 since Zimmerman has gotten so many death threats.

[Tempest]

122. Bail was required by state law

Lester expressed frustration and disapproval at having to grant bail.

[csziggy]

131. Yes, but it went from $150,000 to a million

Because the Zimmermans tried to lie to the court and got caught.

Very stupid people lose every time.

[Tempest]

51. Not true

He was recognized by NW as the contact person for the complex and he attended NW training sessions.

He was introduced to Sanford police by NW as their point of contact.

There is far too many instances of cooperation to say he was not part of NW.

[niyad]

126. please show links to this because I seem to recall that neighborhood watch said he was not one

of theirs, and one does NOT carry a gun as a neighborhood watch person. and the fact that he was not, in fact, neighborhood watch, was pointed out again and again. so would like to see the links saying otherwise, and explaining what a neighborhood watch person was doing carrying a gun.

[Tempest]

127. I posted links to the document dumps earlier. n/t

[niyad]

128. well, could you at least post the link to that, since I did not see it?

[Tempest]

129. You got to be $#%^&%$ kidding me!

How hard is it to go through my posts on a single page?

Especially when I titled my post DOCUMENT DUMP!

It's post #98 and it's the last time I'm holding your hand.

[niyad]

132. I do ask your forgiveness for not realizing that you had posted that document dump in this thread,

and for not having read all the way down to the end of the thread to find it. have had a few other things on my mind today.

[Tempest]

133. And I apologize for jumping all over you

I'm battling the GZ supporters over at HP and it's frustrating to have to keep repeating facts and dispelling their lies.

[niyad]

136. not a problem. I can understand the frustration of dealing with ignorance, living as I do in

fundieville.

[TeeYiYi]

147. Wow. Rude. That really surprised me. ...nt

[Travelman]

138. It doesn't matter

It's completely and totally irrelevant whether he was the neighborhood watch captain or lieutenant or deputy or if he appointed himself head Klingon. Neighborhood watch has absolutely nothing to do with this.

This is about two individuals. Neighborhood watch didn't shoot anyone; George Zimmerman did.



I'm frankly sick and tired of all of the "neighborhood watch" BS that keeps getting thrown around in this case. It has absolutely nothing to do with the case whatsoever.

[ReRe]

141. I don't have the facts to back this up....

... but, I was a member (the founder, actually) of a neighborhood watch program back when they were first being formed (late 1980s.) Ours was formed for the protection of anyone, but mostly children, in our neighborhood, to provide a safe harbor to run to if they were being accosted or attacked on the street. No one in our group had a gun. Every member and their family members had to have a background check. If they passed the background check, they were given a sticker by the police dept to place on their front window or door in clear view of the street. About every onther house in our neighborhood had a sticker. Everyone in the neighborhood was educated on what NW was. Once a year, usually in August, the entire neighborhood got out in the street one afternoon and evening. Street parties, dancing, music. It was held once a year so everyone would MEET THEIR NEIGHBORS, and be involved in the NW Assoc. That evening, everyone would leave their porch lights on all night. There would be a march around the neightborhood, all the kids receiving a light stick to hold, and they would meet McGruff the crime fighting dog when he landed in a helicopter. The kids and parents loved the whole thing, and neighbors would get to know each other. Everyone was invested in it. It worked. The only "crime" we had going on in our neighborhood was child bullies, so it gave their victims a place to run and get away from them.

Now... back to the part where I don't have facts to back this up: I bet you money GZ was not the member of any NW Associa. They will not find his name on a NW member roll anywhere. Not with the neighborhood, not with the police dept. I think George was a self-appointed vigilante type. He took the law into his own hands.

Another dead give-away was when the police Dept didn't take him straight to the hospital to get his injuries documented. His injuries will never stand up in a court of law because they weren't immediately documented. Not two days later, not a week later, not a month later. Injuries have to be documented on the spot... ASAP after the incident. Everything fell through that night.
George killed an innocent kid and the police dept fell through on their job.

[Travelman]

142. This is precisely WHY it doesn't matter

Neighborhood watch, whether it's the "official" Neighborhood Watch or just a bunch of neighbors who get together at Jim and Cathy's house for coffee, has nothing to do with someone being armed. That is an INDIVIDUAL action. Even if you're a legally-armed security guard, (e.g. for a bank or something like that), if you shoot someone, it doesn't make a piddly damn's worth of difference what association you belong to.

Any and all of this blather about neighborhood watch is nothing but a deflection from the facts in the case: an individual shot and killed another individual. Maybe it was self-defense, maybe it wasn't. But one way or the other, neighborhood watch, community association, or membership in the Rotary Club has absolutely, positively nothing to do with it.

[ReRe]

143. Of course it wouldn't matter...

...but since GZ has used it as a defense, or part of his story, it does. No?

[Travelman]

145. No.

I've never seen anything indicating that Zimmerman has brought anything about neighborhood watch into his defense, or indeed that he has ever said much of anything about it at all. There's certainly nothing in the police reports saying that he somehow justified the shooting because of neighborhood watch. Nothing O'Mara has said has had anything to do with neighborhood watch, AFAIK.


Everything I've ever seen about neighborhood watch W/R/T Zimmerman has originated in the media, and then been repeated ad nauseum and picked apart worthlessly by people all over the internet and of course the usual chattering class on TV and such.

[ReRe]

146. So, you've read all the "police reports"?

Do you remember a guy who was defending him? Said there had been allot of break-ins in the area? He acted like he knew GZ personally, as he sure was defending him to the hilt? Maybe he was the one that mentioned the NW business. I sure would like to lay eyes on the police reports. Are they posted somewhere on the web?

So are you defending GZ? Settle down, for Pete's sake. You're going to have a coronary right there in front of your computer. Peace, Travelman.

[Travelman]

148. Yes, I've read them

At least what was posted by the Sanford PD (they've since taken them down).

There are duplicates posted around.

http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report

There are others, such as the coroner's report. Google is your friend.



I am defending no one. I'm just a stickler for sticking to known facts, and the fact is that Zimmerman has not made any mention of neighborhood watch as being some sort of defense. If you have evidence to the contrary, please bring it, because I'd be interested in seeing it, but some third party talking about neighborhood watch doesn't count.


And I'm completely calm. I've given absolutely no indication to the contrary.

[AAO]

151. What about the Lion's Club? Credit Union? (bwahahahhaha) n/t

[AAO]

150. Iv'e never done this before. +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 !

[frylock]

2. going all in..

he's cooked.

[aaaaaa5a]

3. I guess he figured he has little chance of winning the hearing.

And he didn't want to risk using evidence, strategy and testimony that could then be used against him in trial.

[naaman fletcher]

23. yup. nt

[rhett o rick]

46. And to lose the hearing would have given negitive momentum.

[Tempest]

52. Yup.

An unsuccessful SYG hearing result can be told to the jury.

They'll see that as a sign of guilt.

[Gothmog]

58. Thanks for the information

I am licensed in Texas and my practice is transactional. I do not know Florida criminal procedure and if you can introduce a SYG ruling to the jury then it makes sense not to pursue that defense at this time. It is clear to me that SYG should not apply when you pursue the victim

[Tempest]

61. "It is clear to me that SYG should not apply when you pursue the victim"

That is also the determination of the two Florida legislators who wrote the law and the governor of the state who signed it into law.

It's also the de facto standard for the lawyers in Florida who have spoken out about the case.

[rhett o rick]

66. If this case isnt about SYG, Zim will lose a lot of common citizen support.

They may see Zim as just a thug.

[Tempest]

67. He already has

Donations to his cause have dried up and O'Mara has doubled his efforts in getting money donated.

[BlueStreak]

113. Everything comes out in discovery

There just aren't "Perry Mason Surprises" in real trials. Both sides have the same information. All the trial does is give them a chance to spin it in their favor.

[denverbill]

5. IMO, this is the attorneys decision to maximize their own exposure and legal fees.

They see how much money he is raising on the internet from NRA nuts and freepers and they want it all.

[24601]

125. Alternative view - defense doesn't want to show it's cards until there is a jury.

[Coolest Ranger]

6. Yea where are his defenders now hum.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

28. Well, a lot of long time gungeoners were banned after Sandy Hook.

So the pickin's might be a little slim.

Zombies should be along shortly.

[Coolest Ranger]

32. wow I did not know this

usually any Zimmerman news attracts the gun crowd.

[Tempest]

49. If you want to see that, go to Huffington Post and search on any GZ story.

They're as thick as thieves over there.

[Coolest Ranger]

76. I've given up on Huff Post.

[Tempest]

78. That's a shame

It has some good stories if you're willing to overlook everything else.

It's all in your ability to filter.

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. Where are those that claimed he would get off thanks to SYG?

[Tempest]

68. In hiding until this dies down. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Undoubtedly hoping some mean person doesn't dig up all those inconvenient posts.

It's sorely tempting, I tell you. It would make for a most amusing thread...

[Tempest]

77. If you want to really be amused...

Go to Huffington Post, do a search on Zimmerman stories and read the comments.

You won't believe the lengths people will go to try to make GZ look innocent.

We even suspect GZ and his family are posting. New (as in just registered for an account) members show up and say something and the next day a new (as in just registered for an account) member will show up and say the exact same thing. It's hysterical.

[friendly_iconoclast]

88. I can understand why GZ+family are doing it (*not* sympathize, mind you)

A crude attempt to taint the jury pool, no doubt.

I suspect that those here at DU that posted near-hysterical claims that "SYG law= license to kill" and that Zimmerman
was going to walk because of it are making good use of the self-delete button as we speak- or at least the ones that
don't want to be held up to some well-deserved ridicule...

[Tempest]

91. I personally believe there's something behind the "SYG law= license to kill"

Look at SYG statistics for Florida.

Not only is it a license to kill, it's a license to kill minorities in Florida.

[friendly_iconoclast]

94. ISTR at least a couple of bullshit claims which failed.

However, the SYG law removed the "duty to retreat" standard, which is a good thing in my opinion.

A homicide can be either justifiable or manslaughter/murder, and which of these should not depend
on where someone is.

[Tempest]

96. I'm not sure what you mean in your headline

For example, in Florida the number of justifiable homicides jumped a whole bunch after the passage of SYG and people started using it. Much to the dismay of police and prosecutors because some of those who got away with it were gang bangers.

And the number of whites successfully using it is much higher than minorities who attempt to use it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

100. A certain number of the undoubtedly guilty will get away with crimes.

O.J. Simpson, anyone? Seems to me that some of these gang bangers should be getting hit with
'felon in posession' charges, even if found not guilty for the crime they used the firearm with.

[Tempest]

102. Actually, gang bangers are fairly intelligent

In order to keep RICO statutes at bay, for example, members with felony records are usually kept away from the front lines.

[onehandle]

8. Majority white Florida jury = Not Guilty.

Sorry, it's true.

Sounds like his best chance.

He'll probably get off, gun rightist will celebrate, but I bet the family can sue his ass off. Re: O. J.

[jsr]

11. Exactly.

His lawyer knows the odds.

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. Can you show me the proof of that, please? nt

[AAO]

33. He can't prove it. It's his opinion. You'll have to wait and see if he's right of wrong.

[Hoyt]

27. There'll be at least one bigot and/or paranoid gun nut on the jury, probably more.

That's all the murderer needs.

[Tempest]

53. Not true

If a juror doesn't decide a case based upon the evidence, and it can be shown the juror is uncooperative and not taking evidence into account, they can be replaced with an alternative or a mistrial can be declared.

[Hoyt]

60. My point -- mistrial. How many times do you think prosecutor will retry?

[Tempest]

62. If you read anything about Corey

You'd know that she's a bulldog who doesn't let go.

Interviews with defense lawyers paint a clear picture that she is someone they all fear.

[Hoyt]

69. Florida bigotry and gun nuttery are going to be hard to overcome.

I'm not sure how committed the prosecutors are. The guy would have walked without charges, except for public outcry.

Hope you are right, but I think the murderer will eventually walk.

[Tempest]

71. The state had nothing to do with his initial release

It was a state attorney (they don't work for the state, they work for the locality) who decided not to charge him.

The state wasn't even aware of the situation until it was brought to their attention. Corey was the perfect choice to prosecute.

With Nelson on the bench and in light of all the physical evidence against GZ, I don't see this turning out in GZ's favor.

[Hoyt]

97. Well we can speculate all day. I didn't think he'd get bail, but he did. So right now, things are

going well for the little weasel. The longer they can drag it out, the better.

Having been to Florida plenty of times, I know what the jury pool looks like from the standpoint of bigotry, tbaggery and gun love.

[Tempest]

101. Why would you think he wouldn't get bail?

Law in Florida mandates bail. The judge had no choice.

[Ash_F]

104. Even with a flight risk? I am not well versed in Florida law.

He was trying to hide money. Part of the reason they make you declare your assets is to see how much that can make you a flight risk.

The fact he had a lot and tried to hide it could have been enough to make that assessment.

[Tempest]

108. Yup. Messed up, isn't it? But that's Florida for you. n/t

[Ash_F]

109. Indeed. I bet there are cases where people more deserving don't get it though. /nt

[Tempest]

110. Read the transcript of the bail hearing

You can tell Lester had contempt for the law and was frustrated at having to award GZ bail.

Lester made it a point to say his hands were tied.

[Pancho Schneider]

111. What percentage of Floridians are gun-nuts/bigots?

In your estimate?

[Tempest]

112. 2.7 per square mile. n/t

[blueknight]

114. i agree that he will walk

and it makes me sick! i bet his defense is being funded by the NRA or a like organization

[Tempest]

115. Based on what? n/t

[Tempest]

50. Not in this case

There's far too much physical evidence which doesn't match the story(ies) he's told police.

[csziggy]

121. There is no incentive to sue Zimmerman - no money

Unlike OJ who had resources, Zimmerman was not worth much money to start with and probably will never be worth much. He's not articulate enough to be a public speaker or his lawyer would have him making videos to drum up support. He was either unemployed or underemployed before he killed Trayvon Martin. he spend money about as fast as his lawyer can beg for donations. So Zimmerman will never have much worth suing him for.

Heck, Zimmerman's father apparently does not have a lot of assets - his house wasn't worth a lot and if I remember my research from last year, the mortgage was for more than the house was worth - and his mother was willing to pledge it for Zimmy's original bond.

[Tempest]

123. Garnishment of future wages.

And the family knowing they received some semblance of justice.

[csziggy]

130. But Zimmerman has never made much money

So the only satisfaction would be to make sure he never gets ahead. Which might be worth it, though Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton don't seem to be that kind of vengeful people.

[Tempest]

134. Wrongful death cases are rarely about the money

It's just another way of getting a guilty verdict. Kinda like a roundabout double jeopardy, if that makes sense.

[JDPriestly]

9. Zimmerman probably hopes that the judge will exclude

the evidence of his phone call to the police when he first advised police that he saw Trayvon. He may want to shift the focus away from the fact that he followed Trayvon to, as he apparently claims, find out where Trayvon was and narrow the relevant time frame of events to the period after he met up with Trayvon.

That way he may think he can rely on an old-fashioned self-defense argument.

From some posts on DU, I kind of think that Zimmerman's defense has been toying with that idea. Could work, especially if he has someone on his jury who is a racist and dislikes Trayvon's race more than Zimmerman's.

[former9thward]

10. These court "observers" who are "stunned" don't know much about trials.

This was a smart move by the defense which could have been predicted by any defense attorney. This allows the claim to be put before a jury who may be more receptive than a judge.

[stevenleser]

155. That was my first thought too. If it was struck down in a hearing, he definitely loses the trial.

This way, its a defense that definitely makes it to the jury.

I'd say the SYG law probably gets them 66.6% of the way to reasonable doubt in terms of what Zimmerman's intent was.

Very clever move by the defense attorneys. I happen to think he is guilty and should be put away until he is old and grey, but I think he is going to get off.

[Coolest Ranger]

12. I'm hoping I'm wrong but I have a bad feeling he's going to beat this charge

[sinkingfeeling]

13. Just going to use a self-defense strategy. He claims Trayvon attacked him first.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. His story makes zero sense though.

He sees Trayvon (who we ultimately know was innocently walking home and nothing else), claims he looks suspicious, gets out of the car, starts chasing Trayvon, and then claims he loses him.

Zimmerman then claims he starts walking back to his car when he is suddenly "ambushed" by Trayvon and after becoming physically overwhelmed by Trayvon he claims he has no choice but to shoot him.

Now think about it for a moment: If you are Trayvon, and you know you have done nothing wrong, and all of a sudden you start being chased by some strange guy, and you happen to lose him--why then would you supposedly double back and ambush your attacker? Why not try to either continue back to safety of your house, or hide out until you think the coast is clear and then head home?

Zimmerman's story makes no sense. I believe there was some sort of altercation between him and Trayvon that may have escalated physically, but I highly doubt it happened the way Zimmerman claims.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Neither does Jodi Arias' make any sense and she's claiming self-defense in her

3rd. story.

[naaman fletcher]

24. playing devils advocate:

"If you are Trayvon, and you know you have done nothing wrong, and all of a sudden you start being chased by some strange guy, and you happen to lose him--why then would you supposedly double back and ambush your attacker? Why not try to either continue back to safety of your house, or hide out until you think the coast is clear and then head home? "

Because you are a gangster thug who was suspended from school for drugs.

The defense is going to make this about:

1. Respectable member of the community who was looking to protect it after recent break-ins by thugs vs.
2. Thug

That's what the defense is going to make it about, and it only takes one juror to buy it.

[Tempest]

37. Mistrial if O'Mara brings up drugs

School officials said drugs had nothing to do with his suspension.

His suspensions were a result of tardiness.

[naaman fletcher]

39. ok..

my point is though they are going to attack Trayvon and make him look like the kind of guy everyone on the jury should be afraid of

[Tempest]

44. I hope they do attack him

It will backfire badly.

There's nothing in Trayvon's past which indicates he's a violent person.

And if they do, it will then allow Corey to introduce all the violent episodes in GZ's past.

[naaman fletcher]

45. good point. nt

[Boabab]

85. Gangster + thug = zimmerman

The problem with this "strategy" is that gz is the actual thug, who has actual arrest under his belt -- one for assaulting a police officer.

Under no circumstances is gz "respectable". He and his wife are also proven liars under oath. Remember the "surrendered" passport?

By any measure, once gz's own history is detailed, he will look much, much worse than any dirt they throw Trayvon's way.

[Tempest]

86. For every shovel of dirt O'Mara has, Corey has a dump truck's worth. n/t

[Ash_F]

99. It really comes down to the jury pool. Anyone know where they will pull from? /nt

[Tempest]

103. Driver license rolls in Florida, I believe

Corey successfully convinced the judge to allow for 500 potential jurors against the defense's wishes.

That's a whole lot of people to go through.

[Ash_F]

105. So, all across Florida?

It may not be that bad of a jury then.

[Tempest]

107. State case, statewide. n/t

[Tempest]

36. And it makes even less sense in light of the physical evidence

There's far too much physical evidence against him. He's toast.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

116. It's on the prosecutor to disprove GZ's claim

The Defense must think they can conjure up some "reasonable doubt". That's all they need.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

117. Yes and no.

Technically, the legal standard in all criminal cases, including Zimmerman's, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

However, Zimmerman is using the affirmative defense of self-defense, which the burden is on him to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.

This isn't a whodunnit; this is a whydunnit. And there is still some affirmative obligation for Zimmerman to prove reasonable self defense.

[Tempest]

118. Yup. In self defense, the burden of proof is mainly on the defendent.

And that means he'll have to eventually testify.

And it will be all downhill from there for him.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

119. I was on a jury, 2d degree murder, with self-defense as the Defense tactic

It was going to be tough going for the prosecutor to disprove, because witnesses weren't convincing.

I was almost disappointed when he got a deal and the trial was stopped in its tracks. It might have been an interesting jury deliberation. Or might have been just pointless and hostile. Who knows?

[Tempest]

124. What kind of physical evidence was available?

There's a lot in this case which contradicts the story GZ told police.

[marble falls]

15. If he gets anything more than probation a suspended sentance and time served, I'll be very surprised

He's going to get away with it.

[Blue_Tires]

83. Doubtful...

But it depends on what happens in the jury selection...

[Tempest]

87. I've been noticing it's the low count posters making these claims

And not a one appear to know anything about the case.

But you figured that out for yourself earlier.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Why would this 'stun the court'? His lawyer has been saying this for 6+ months.

He knows SYG doesn't fucking apply.

Zimmerman pursued. He set in motion the events that led to a confrontation. Had the outcome been the opposite, Martin would have been fully justified in using SYG himself as an affirmative defense, since he was pursued, he wasn't doing anything illegal, and he would have been fully within his rights to defend himself.

[Tempest]

38. Actually, O'Mara has been going back and forth on it

Two weeks ago he said it was still in play.

[Andy Stanton]

17. Jury Nullification

The process by which the jury makes a decision that's contrary to the evidence and the law. If it's a guilty verdict, the judge has the power to overturn it. But if the verdict is not guilty, the defendant is free to go and there's nothing anyone can do. That's what happened in the Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson cases. That's what might happen here.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. I don't think Simpson or Anthony constituted true jury nullification.

While both verdicts were contrary to most of public opinion, they were simply a combination of defense lawyers successfully arguing reasonable doubt and various missteps by the prosecution. (The Anthony case in particular--the prosecution should have never of argued the case as a capital first degree murder case.)

Jury nullification is when there is a law that the defendant clearly broke, but the jury dislikes the law itself and acquits the defendant based on their disdain for the law.

[naaman fletcher]

25. I think that same analysis applies here though..

I don't think the prosecution should be going for murder, I think they should be going for manslaughter.

This, by the way, is the same thing that happened in the original Rodney King trial. The officers were charged with the equivalent of attempted murder, so it was easy for the defense to argue "if we were trying to kill him we would have, and we would not have called an ambulance". Obviously this is not a defense of those cops, or Anthony, or Zimmerman here, but over-charging in the face of public outrage can backfire. Zimmerman is going to argue that he did not set out to kill Trayvon.. that is not why he was there. He will say he was attacked and that his wounds prove it.

He will get off on the murder charge.

However, he is guilty of manslaughter for being the cause of the deadly confrontation overall, even though his purpose was not murder.

Please, I am not on Zimmerman's side, but he did not wake up that day and say "im gonna kill a black kid", and it will be easy for him to convince the jury of that.

[Tempest]

40. They went with murder so manslaughter could be on the table

The jury will have a choice between murder 2 or manslaughter.

No choice would be available if it were just manslaughter.

[naaman fletcher]

41. ah ok. I stand corrected. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

64. Different degrees of murder.

I don't think first degree (pre-meditated) murder is at play here. I don't know of any evidence showing Zimmerman exited his vehicle with the express intention of killing Trayvon.

However, second degree murder is a different story. That can be proven by showing that Zimmerman acted with a callous disregard for human life. If it can be shown that Zimmerman chased down Trayvon with the intention of getting into a confrontation with him that ultimately resulted in him shooting Trayvon, second degree murder should be on the table. The one thing that sticks out in my mind is Zimmerman's remark to the dispatcher, "These assholes, they always get away." It shows a vigalante motive for Zimmerman, IMHO.

Manslaughter would be shown if Zimmerman acted recklessly or if his belief of need for deadly force was not reasonable. If evidence shows that Zimmerman was the aggressor in the physical confrontation, manslaughter would be on the table. If the force that Trayvon used on Zimmerman was disproportionate and not life threatening, then manslaughter would be on the table.

Frankly, I think there is evidence to support 2nd degree murder. However, if the ultimate verdict is manslaughter and Zimmerman gets at least 10 years, I'd feel more or less be comfortable that justice was served in the situation.

[Tempest]

72. And any conviction will help the Martin family's wrongful death lawsuit. n/t

[cheyanne]

135. 2nd degree murder in Florida

You might want to check out the Talkleft site's zimmerman. They lay out all the relevant law on the case . . .

[sofa king]

22. Yep.

Every time this chump makes the news, he poisons another potential juror. He will have a near-perfect defense, thanks to his father the judge, and I expect them to use every trick they can to disrupt the jury pool. Just keeping him in the news is the best defense for now.

Recall that Oliver North got off not because he was not guilty, but because he was so fucking guilty that it was impossible to find twelve people who didn't already know it.

[onenote]

29. His father the "judge"?

Not exactly. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002494736

[Tempest]

30. Really kind of a minor point

Regardless of whether he was a judge or magistrate, he had connections within the Sanford PD and was friends with state attorney Wolfinger.

[onenote]

34. when the claim is that dad's expertise will help him put together a "near perfect defense"

The fact that his father doesn't have such expertise isn't really so minor, particularly when its pretty clear that his legal team, based on the moves that it has made thus far, seem fairly adept at putting together a defense that will be designed to convince one juror to side with Zimmermann.

[Tempest]

42. You're making a claim which doesn't exist

"The fact that his father doesn't have such expertise"

That's not what the original poster said. Reread his post.

[onenote]

47. "He will have a near-perfect defense, thanks to his father the judge, and I expect them to

to use every trick they can to disrupt the jury pool."

Sure sounds like the post I'm responding to is suggesting that he has a big advantage in formulating his defense strategy because his father is a "judge."

[valerief]

26. Sounds like the Standers don't want their law challenged and made it clear to the murderer. nt

[Moostache]

35. This case is over after jury selection...

If the prosecution does a poor job seating the jury and alternates, then this circus is going to crash down on their heads. Sadly, given the relative incompetence of civil servants in high profile cases - like the OJ fiasco, the Casey Anthony debacle and more, I have very low expectations here.

[Tempest]

43. I wouldn't count on it

I've been studying this case since it broke and there's too many holes in GZ's story which doesn't fit the physical evidence.

No jury will believe him by the time Corey is done.

[Brayshawna Williams]

159. The jury has more in-depth access to evidence than we do

All we have is media reports on what they were able to find out, which is not as much as what the jury can find out.

[BigD_95]

48. I do not see how this guy will be found guilty

I have yet to see what the guy did wrong, legally. If he was getting his head slammed into the ground he had a right to shoot.

[Tempest]

54. Read GZ's statement to police and then review the physical evidence

Most of GZ's story is obviously a lie.

"If he was getting his head slammed into the ground "

I will entertain that if you can answer these questions:

1) How did TM slam GZ's head into the ground repeatable (according to GZ) without getting a single mark on himself? Autopsy shows TM had no marks on his hands or body.
2) How did TM slam GZ's head into the ground and not get a single drop of GZ's DNA on his hands or the sleeves of his jacket or shirt? (forensic report)
3) How did TM slam GZ's head into the ground repeatable and only get one tiny drop of TM's DNA on his clothes, even after claiming he shot TM while TM was on top of him? (forensic report)

So far no one has been able to answer those questions.

[stevenleser]

156. I agree that Zimmerman's suggestions are bullshit. But are they enough to create reasonable doubt.

Remember the standard. Its not which version of events sounds more plausible, it is whether there is a reasonable doubt in what the prosecution says occurred.

In a case like this one, I think it is going to be hard not to have that reasonable doubt.

I really hope not. I hope the prosecutors bring their A-game.

[Tempest]

55. I would also like to know this...

Why are there no defensive marks on GZ?

Instinct says you try to defend yourself against an attack. GZ did no such thing.

Even Serino couldn't believe it and GZ couldn't explain it (police interview report).

[Tommy_Carcetti]

56. If he provoked the physical altercation, then self-defense should not apply.

And right now, all we have is his dubious story that he was "ambushed" by Trayvon after he had chased and supposedly lost him.

Makes zero sense. If Trayvon had successfully lost Zimmerman, why would Trayvon double back and attack a stranger who had been chasing him for no apparent reason? Why not head back home or hide out?

[Tempest]

59. In light of the circumstances, self-defense won't work

GZ ignored a police dispatcher not to follow. Strike one.

GZ lied to police when he said he wasn't following TM. Strike two.

GZ followed TM and started the confrontation by not identifying himself (investigative report states he had two chances and didn't in either of them). Strike three.

He's out.

[DallasNE]

80. That Is Zimmerman's Story

Part of it may even be true. Martin had almost no powder burns which suggests that Martin was not actively slamming his head into the ground at the time the trigger was pulled because he was at least 3-4 feet away from the gun. Was Martin starting to get up to walk away when he was shot? That is a possibility. Not saying that is the case. We just need to wait and see what develops from the evidence and not accept Zimmerman's self-serving statements. (Both sides will have expert witnesses that will disagree on just about everything).

[Tempest]

84. It was determined to be "immediate range"

And that is anywhere from 3 inches to 3 feet.

There were more powder burns than you are portraying and the evidence is heavy the shot was between 4 to 6 inches away.

[DallasNE]

95. That Is News To Me

Do you have a link. The last analysis I saw put it in the 3-4 foot range. 4-6 inches would leave heavy powder burns as the muzzle flash would easily be within that range for a 9mm. That would change the complexion somewhat as well.

[Tempest]

98. Document dump

http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen

I hope you have a fast connection. There's a lot of material.

[Blue_Tires]

81. Go review the whole case and get back to us

Because it's clear you know jack shit about it...

[Nevernose]

139. He chased an unarmed child.

He instigated the fight rough his own actions, and is therefore can not claim "self-defense." That makes it murder, or at the very least manslaughter.

[rhett o rick]

65. I think there is a chance that gun enthusiasts might be willing to throw Zim under the bus.

If this isnt a SYG case they may consider him just a thug giving gun enthusiasts a bad name. If he is found innocent it will bring more bad publicity to the gun enthusiasts and they have plenty to deal with now.

[Tempest]

73. His support base is rapidly shrinking

There used to be a lot of people defending him at Huffington Post in the case's stories.

Now most have either expressed doubts on his innocence or have disappeared completely.

And donations have all but dried up. Two or three weeks ago O'Mara almost cried on TV begging for money.

[friendly_iconoclast]

79. Most "gun enthusiasts" here knew this wasn't a SYG case, and said so.

Let's not rewrite history.

[rhett o rick]

82. Rewrite what? I believe they might be willing to throw him under the bus. That's all. nm

[friendly_iconoclast]

90. He got little to no support in most places in the first place, so what's your point?

Aside from obvious cesspools like Free Republic, Zimmerman was roundly condemned at damn near every site
to to left of Stormfront that I could be arsed to look at.

[Tempest]

92. He's collected over $400,000 from small donations

That's hardly "little to no support".

Apparently we read different web sites. Many news sites with the story had tons of support for GZ in the comments section.

[Tempest]

89. He said nothing about gun enthusiasts here

Gun enthusiasts all over the country took up GZ's cause and sent him money.

And they defend him in social forums all over the "tubes".

[friendly_iconoclast]

93. You may very well be correct, as I try to avoid RW sites for the most part.

Oh, I might hold my nose and wade in for reconnaissance purposes, but once it got to the point where a
particular site had gone over to either the "GZ is being unfairly persecuted" or "He's guilty-skip the trial
and lynch him/give him life" sides I would avoid them.

DU was one of the few places where there was real (albeit heated at times) discussion.

[Tempest]

106. I'm talking about non-right wing sites

Sites like ABC News, NBC News, CBS News, Huffington Post, even on Comedy Central's FB page.

I myself have debated more than 100 of his supporters just on HP since the story broke.

[DallasNE]

70. I Don't Think Zimmerman Could Have Stood A Loss In This Hearing

And since Zimmerman was stalking Martin it is hard to see how stand your ground applies. After all it is on the tapes that the dispatcher asked "are you following him", he answered "yes" and the dispatcher replied "don't do that". It is also on tape that Martin asked Zimmerman "why are you following me". It was Martin who was standing his ground when he punched the stalker Zimmerman in the nose.

[Tempest]

75. A loss would have been devastating to his defense

Everything that was revealed in the SYG hearing is available as evidence in the criminal trial.

There's a reason why O'Mara wouldn't let GZ talk to Lester (when he was the judge) unless he wasn't under oath. O'Mara knows what will happen if GZ goes under cross examination.

[Travelman]

137. I don't get why anyone is "stunned" by this

O'Mara has been saying that he's not going after SYG since last August.

[Brigid]

140. An unarmed teenager was killed for no reason

If I were in that jury pool, that would be all I need to know.

[IrishAyes]

152. Agreed

At the end of the day, unarmed teenager killed by racist, persistent pursuer is all we need to know. I wouldn't even call it murder two; one's more like it. How long did this surveillance last? Enough for murder one to apply. He might not have outright intended to shoot the kid at first, but he seems to have had an awfully itchy trigger finger from the outset. That's enough for intent.

[davidn3600]

160. Casey Anthony walked.....

...anything is possible in front of a jury. All it takes is 1 juror to have a "reasonable doubt" and Zimmerman will walk.

[Rex]

161. HA.

He is praying a jury will be lenient on him.