H-1B visas used by firm to create low-cost workforce, U.S. alleges
Source: Computerworld
If there was no work, H-1B visa-holding employees at Texas IT firm were 'benched,' say feds in indictment
By Patrick Thibodeau
March 4, 2013 01:18 PM ET
Computerworld - A Texas IT services firm has been indicted by federal authorities for using H-1B visa workers to create an inexpensive "as needed" labor force.
A multi-count indictment filed last month charged that Dibon Solutions of Carrollton, Texas only paid Visa-holding employees when there was work.
The full scheme is outlined step-by-step in papers filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas, Dallas Division.
The indictment says that Dibon recruited foreign workers and sponsored them for H-1B visas to work at the firm's headquarters, but required them to provide consulting services to third-party companies located elsewhere.
Read more: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9237303/H_1B_visas_used_by_firm_to_create_low_cost_workforce_U.S._alleges
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I wonder if this is happening anywhere else in tech industry!!???
My job was shipped over seas a long time ago. I think I'm running out of boot straps to pull myself up with over here.
-p
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)And that, sadly, is just about everywhere.
valerief
(53,235 posts) 
Journeyman
(15,036 posts)Hulk
(6,699 posts)IF we need engineers so bad we have to steal from other countries, then WHY DON'T WE EDUCATE MORE? If we need H-1B visas to bring the work force to this country, then can't we educate our students or our work force here in this country? Are we too fookin' dumb to educate now?
I'm all for immigration. In fact, my wife is going to be submitting her application for citizenship in the next few weeks; but I also seem to recall hearing about a work force of some 13 million?, 20 million?, hell - I don't remember what the HUGE NUMBER is; but can't we put OUR PEOPLE TO WORK at good paying jobs?
I was having dinner with my son and his family, and we got into a discussion about how Cuba has more doctors per capita than any other country in the world. They have doctors harvesting sugar cane, from what I've heard - true or not, I don't know. And WE NEED more doctors in this country, if we are going to be adding another 40 million+ citizens to the health care program. Wouldn't it just make sense that we PUSH to educate more? Give incentives, such as paying off their education if they commit to working for the government or state hospitals/health care offices, etc? Damn, it just doesn't seem like "rocket science" to me. What am I missing here?
Phlem
(6,323 posts)bottom line economics here in the US.
There are a lot of incentives for CEO's to hit economic targets for a corporation and the board usually have a lot of say if not all for CEO bonuses.
The room is sanitized to remove any empathy for citizens because it'll all about the bottom line, profits. In this climate all things are on the table to reach the holy grail, profits. Profits above all else! Anyway possible!
I only say cause I've been close to these types of shenanigans, never participated, eventually left cause I couldn't stand it anymore.
This country's business community are detached from empathy or any morality.
As I recall I don't think they teach any ethics in business courses anymore.
What we have is a cancer of greed in the US.
-p
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)sums it up.
-p
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Kids don't bother majoring in computer science any more because the jobs aren't there, at least not for American citizens.
The cost of a 4-year degree in computer science or anything else is insanely expensive. When you graduate, you're saddled with huge student loan payments on top of normal living expenses, so you need to earn a certain amount of money to get by.
However, an American college grad in computer science is competing for jobs with computer scientists from other countries where education is free or well-subsidized. These folks from overseas don't need to earn as much because they're not saddled with student loan debt. Also, their saved earnings will likely go a lot farther when the return to their home country.
Companies that import workers on H-1B visas usually bend the rules every way they can to pay them salaries that are significantly lower than American IT workers are paid. Sometimes the H-1B are housed in dormitories so they can save money on living expenses and sock away more money to bring home. This is a win for the employers, a win for the people with H-1B visas, and a lose-lose-lose for American IT workers.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)The original post includes excerpts from an article where the U.S. government fined and held liable a company that abused the system. Companies that are third-party outfits like Infosys and Tata are now held to much stricter standards thanks to President Obama's recent directive which places more regulatory burdens on these outfits.
Are there some who take advantage of the program? Sure. Are they the majority? Absolutely not. I can back this up by my own professional experience. In the past 14 years I have worked on thousands of H-1B visas for a variety of industries - including IT - and never once were the rules bent in any way, nor were the employees paid less than other workers.
Can you back up the claim that H-1B workers are sometimes housed in dormitories? Housing is not a benefit. If workers choose to live together to save money, it's up to them. Employers are not required to provide housing unless housing is a benefit granted to other employees.
Here is some real data: according to USCIS (http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/H-1B/h1b-fy-11-characteristics.pdf), for Fiscal Year 2011 (the most recent year for which data is available):
-Approximately 58 percent of all H-1B petitions approved in FY 2011 were for workers born in India. This means the remainder of workers were not born in India.
-Forty-one percent of H-1B petitions approved in FY 2011 were for workers with a bachelor’s degree, forty-two percent had a master’s degree, eleven percent had a doctorate, and 5 percent were for workers with a professional degree. This is because the H-1B category also includes fashion models who are not required to have any education at all.
-About 51 percent of H-1B petitions approved in FY 2011 were for workers in computer-related occupations. The other 49% obviously are not for computer-related occupations. The assumption that H-1B visa workers are all IT workers is false.
-The median salary of beneficiaries of approved petitions increased to $70,000 in FY 2011, $2,000 more than in FY 2010. Considering that the median income for a U.S. family of four is near $50,000, you can't argue that H-1B workers are paid less than everyone else.
The nationalities of H-1B workers span the globe, unlike the assumption by many on DU that it is an Indians-only visa. While those born in India make up the largest contingent, there is a wide representation of nationalities. Here are the best represented nationalities, in order of quantity:
1. India
2. China, People's Republic
3. Canada
4. Philippines
5. South Korea
6. United Kingdom
7. Mexico
8. Japan
9. Taiwan
10. France
11. Pakistan
12. Germany
13. Turkey
14. Brazil
15. Colombia
16. Venezuela
17. Nepal
18. Russia
19. Italy
20. Spain
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Note that these article excerpts were written 10 years apart, and the fraud problems remain.
My husband has worked in IT since 1984 and has seen many of his colleagues lose their careers to H1-B visa holders. His brother in another state, also an IT worker, has been unemployed or underemployed for more than a decade.
http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/19990506.htm
May 1999
"Witnesses at a hearing of the House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims said that fraud by both visa recipients and corporate sponsors is rampant, that government agencies do not have the resources to deal with the problem, and the recipients of fraudulently obtained visas are rarely prosecuted or deported.
These reports led Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX), who presided at the hearing, to question witnesses, "What is the point of having all these visa laws on the books if we don't take any action against the people who violate them?" and "Does that sound like an immigration system that is working?"
Rep. Edward Pease (R-IN) asked one panel of witnesses, "Why is it that we are not prosecuting the folks who are the beneficiaries of illegal activity?" Michael Bromwich, Inspector General of the Department of Justice, answered that "the system would be flooded with cases."
-----
http://www.siliconvalleyimmigrationlawyer.com/2009/10/silicon-valley-h1b-employers-w.html
Silicon Valley H-1B Employers Will Face Tougher Challenges in Light of Fraud Reports
October 3, 2009
"Like most H-1B employers, Silicon Valley employers need to start over-documenting their H-1B petitions and increasing the material provided about the sponsoring employer, as well as about the employee and the proposed job. Recent reports of fraud in the H-1B program, as well as Senator Grassley's vocal proposals to tighten screening of H-1B employers have cast a cloud of fraud onto the H-1B program.
The cover article in the October 12, 2009 Business Week issue is called "America's High-Tech Sweat Shops: How U.S. companies may contribute unwittingly to the exploitation of foreign workers". This article highlights the various ways in which some H-1B employers have abused the visa system, and taken advantage of unknowing foreign nationals seeking work in the U.S. Fraud ranges from employers: charging potential H-1B workers exorbitant fees as high as $15,000 to submit visa applications; allowing potential H-1B workers to pay fees and obtain an H-1B visa only to come to the U.S. and find that the employer does not have a paying job for them; siphoning off H-1B employees' wages; failing to pay H-1B employees between contract jobs - also called "benching"; to employers claiming that an H-1B worker is employed in a low-wage metropolitan area so that a lower wage can be paid - but actually employing the H-1B worker in a higher wage area.
Unfortunately, the Business Week article is just one of several recent highlights of H-1B fraud. Last week Senator Grassley (R-Iowa) wrote a letter to the new head of the USCIS, Alejandro Mayorkas, pushing for tighter restrictions on H-1B employers. His letter referenced the USCIS' 2008 internal assessment of compliance in the H-1B program. Although the 2008 USCIS report showed a rate of error in H-1B applications of almost 20%, Senator Grassley characterized these errors as fraud, whereas only 13% were found to be fraud and 7% were considered to be technical errors. In his letter to Director Mayorkas, Grassley requested more information from petitioning employers to assure that work is waiting for H-1B employees and they will not be "benched"."
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)Much has changed, even within the past 2 years. According to the same information, Sen. Grassley found that only 20% of the petitions were in error. Of these, only 13% of them were fraudulent, although Sen. Grassley characterized all of them as fraudulent. That's actually a very low rate of fraud.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)and that, to me, is the bottom line.
Until my brother-in-law can get a decent-paying IT job, and until many of my husband's friends and former colleagues can find decent-paying IT jobs, instead of watching all the work go to low-paid foreigners, I and many others will remain deeply troubled and angry about these unnecessary workers.
There are more than enough IT workers who are American citizens to fill the openings without the need to import cheap foreign labor.
primavera
(5,191 posts)Does he have the specific skills the prospective employer is looking for? If the answer to both of those questions is "yes," then great, I'll agree with you that he's getting screwed. But the job market is very specialized these days. Employers want not only someone with a basic computer science background, but someone with x number of years of experience in the specific type of programming they need for the specific project they're working on. Personally, I think the US economy was way better off when companies hired graduates directly from school and invested the time and money to train them, but, alas, that does not seem to be the way these things work nowadays and I don't think you can blame that on a handful of temporary migrants. If your brother-in-law hasn't found a job because he doesn't live in an area where they're are employers and he's unwilling to relocate to someplace where there are employers, I sympathize, I wouldn't want to move from where I live either. But, again, that's not the fault of temporary migrants.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)He shares custody, and one is still in high school.
There were plenty of IT jobs when he started out after graduating from Rutgers U. and Chubb Institute. Those jobs still exist, but the companies are hiring people with H1B visas because they can get away with paying them much less.
The jobs haven't moved. What's changed is the hiring parameters.
primavera
(5,191 posts)But I don't know how the employers are managing to hire H-1Bs for less than they're paying US workers. In order for an H-1B to be approved, the employer has to pay - at bare minimum - the prevailing wage determined by the Department of Labor (DoL). If the employer isn't willing to pay the prevailing wage, Labor won't approve it, USCIS won't issue the visa, and the person won't be admitted into the US, period, end of story. I don't know much about the methodology DoL uses to determine what the prevailing wage for a specific position should be, I gather it's some sort of survey they conduct. Hypothetically, I suppose that, if there were enough low paid positions in a specific region for a specific job title, it could impact the survey results, but it would have to be a pretty significant percentage of those positions in order to make an appreciable impact on the overall job market. In my own admittedly anecdotal experience, I've generally found DoL wage determinations to be fairly generous. For example, looking up my own occupation in the prevailing wage tables, I've always fervently wished that I was paid as well as the Department of Labor believes I should be paid. As a US citizen, though, unlike foreign workers, there are virtually no laws governing how little I can be paid, so I've never even come close to making prevailing wage. I know that, in bygone days, it used to be the case that you could employ some sleazy wage determination by some private company who, if you paid them enough, would attest that the prevailing wage for a CEO in New York was $7.50/hour. And yeah, there were employers sleazy enough to use such sleazy services, not many, but some. But I'm pretty sure that they closed that loophole years ago and you now have to use the Department of Labor's wage determination. I suppose you could hire an H-1B employee under a lower-level job description, for which the prevailing wage would be lower, but that would be fraud and, if you ever get caught doing it - and there are ample ways for an employer to get caught - the visa would be immediately revoked and the petitioning employer would be permanently barred from ever again participating in the H-1B program. I hear what you're saying, I'm just at a loss to imagine how it could occur.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)For example they switch the job description slightly and lower the pay accordingly.
My husband, who is a database administrator, has worked with many H1B visa holders. Some have told him they live in dorm housing supplied by Tata, an Indian corporation. They don't earn enough to afford our area's high housing costs. Living in the dorm helps them save money which they bring back to India -- money that is not cycled back into the U.S. economy.
Here is a link to an excellent column by Robert X. Cringely, published several months ago, that discusses H1-B abuses and cites a number of studies
http://betanews.com/2012/10/25/h-1b-visa-abuse-limits-wages-and-steals-us-jobs/
From the column:
Studies show no shortage of US tech workers:
"A key argument for H-1B has always been that there’s a shortage of technical talent in US IT. This has been taken as a given by both major political parties. But it’s wrong. Here are six rigorous studies (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) that show there is no shortage of STEM workers in the United States nor the likelihood of such a shortage in years to come."
Prevailing wage chicanery:
"According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, the mean wage for a programmer in Charlotte, NC is $73,965. But the level 1 prevailing wage is $50,170. Most prevailing wage claims on H-1B applications use the level 1 wage driving down the cost of labor in this instance by nearly a third."
Visa fraud:
" A 2011 Government Accountability Office study found that approximately 21 percent of H-1B visas are simply fraudulent -- that the worker is working for a company other than the one that applied for the visa, that the visa holder’s identity has changed, that the worker isn’t qualified for H-1B based on skills or education, or the company isn’t qualified for the H-1B program.
H-1Bs, even though they aren’t citizens or permanent residents, are given Social Security numbers so they can pay taxes on their U.S. income. A study by the Social Security Administration, which is careful to point out that its job doesn’t include immigration monitoring or enforcement, found a number of H-1B anomalies, the most striking of which to me was that seven percent of H-1B employers reported no payments at all to H-1B visa holders. This is no big deal to the SSA because these people qualify for no benefits, but it makes one wonder whether they are under-reporting just Social Security or also to the IRS and why they might do so? Those H-1B employers who do report Social Security income do so at a level that is dramatically lower than one might expect for job classifications that are legally required to pay the “prevailing wage.”
(My boldfaces)
primavera
(5,191 posts)I'm sure that, like most government agencies, those charged with enforcing compliance with the regs are overworked and underfunded and stuff slips through the cracks. I also have no difficulty believing that there are unscrupulous, unethical employers (and unscrupulous, unethical attorneys representing them) who have managed to find cracks and crevasses through which to finagle unqualified applicants. And I agree, that's disgraceful, not only because of the harm it does to the US workforce, but to the reputation of a program that serves a legitimate and essential purpose in US immigration policy. All I can say is that I have, in my lifetime, prepared and reviewed literally hundreds of H-1B petitions. I've read the applicants' resumes, reviewed their school transcripts, their letters of recommendation; I've reviewed the wage surveys and the HR compensation reports of countless petitioning employers; I've reviewed the job descriptions and those of the US workers in comparable positions; I've prepared the public inspection materials every H-1B employer is required by law to maintain, so that any member of the public can instantly know who is being hired, to perform what functions, at what wages, how they compare to other employees engaged in comparable work, and how to contact the Department of Labor if there is anything even remotely fishy going on; and I've participated in audits that were done of employers. I am about as pro-labor a lefty as you could possibly hope to meet and yet, in all of those H-1B petitions, I only recall one that struck me as being dubious. The applicant was the personal friend of a high muckety-muck at a major software company and they pressured the firm where I was working to get his application approved even though he didn't strictly speaking meet the visa's requirements. Since they were a major source of legal fees for the firm, the firm caved and, over my opposition, engaged in some... shall we say, creative lawyering, to shoehorn the guy into the position. All the rest, though, were all totally above board. The employers paid the H1B workers the same as the US workers, the H-1B workers were hired because they possessed specialized skills that were unobtainable elsewhere, everything was as it should be. True, I've only worked with respectable firms which represented respectable clients, who had reputations to protect and strong incentives to avoid tarnishing their images with potential scandals and legal problems, and undoubtedly the same cannot be said for every employer, or every law firm, for that matter. I guess I'd just urge people to resist the temptation to paint every H-1B employee/employer with the same brush. Again, I'm certain that abuses do exist - every program ever invented has its fair share of problems - and I agree they should be addressed, but I sincerely believe that the vast, overwhelming majority of H-1B participants are legit and constitute a benefit to the US economy. My experience may only be anecdotal, but it's a significant amount of anecdotal experience, and I just don't see this as being the festering pit of corruption that so many here are so eager to depict is as.
cap
(7,170 posts)If every user had to have similar qualifications, then a paralegal who worked on windows 7.0, word 8 0, outlook 9.0 and excel 10.0 would not qualify for paralegal positions in offices that run windows 7.1, word 8.1, outlook 9.1, and excel 10.1.
Nor would you know how quickly an American programmer who is qualified in C++ can learn Java or the small differences in Weblogic vs Websphere.
Or when a job really doesn't need a Masters degree with artificial intelligence and 10 specific requirements for a run of the mill banking system.
Also, look at what, when and where employers place help wanted ads. Like a small county newspaper with a highly specific ad on a Wednesday.
Also, you are not looking at male-female ratios. H1 bs are overwhelmingly male.
You know, the first computer, ENIAC was programmed by American housewives!
Your surveys for prevailing wage are skewed to a norm and not contract specific.
Finally, has it occurred to you that many of the regulations are not tough enough to prohibit abuse.
If you are as pro labor lefty as you claim, please contact Dr. George Matloff for some of his research on H1b abuse and he will open your eyes.
cap
(7,170 posts)Wait till you see Indian h1bs preparing the documentation you are citing.
primavera
(5,191 posts)I make no "analysis" - I'm merely offering the impressions I've made from having worked with a great many H-1B petitions over the years. Your assumption that candidates can learn whatever skills they need to perform the job is mistaken. For instance, many of the people I worked with were software localization engineers who prepared foreign language versions of Windows. How swiftly could you acquire native proficiency in Uzbek, do you think? Do you imagine that it's an unreasonable requirement for a software engineer crafting an Uzbek language version of Windows to actually be able to speak Uzbek? Or should everyone else around the planet just use the English language Windows because you don't want any of them foreigners taking your job?
Your concern about having excessive job requirements is valid, but such tailored job descriptions should be - and often are - denied by the Department of Labor as unduly restrictive. As for advertising, you are again mistaken. The Department of Labor dictates which publications possess sufficient circulation to be an acceptable advertising medium and they invariably choose the newspapers with the largest circulation possible. They also dictate how long ads must be run and it's usually at least a week and has to include at least one Sunday edition.
As for prevailing wage determinations, again, I admit I don't know much about the methodology, other than that the Department of Labor conducts wage surveys of all of the positions they have classified for each region within their jurisdiction. You say that is skewed. You perhaps know more about their methodologies? Would you perhaps care to share how it is that you know so much more about the proper way of surveying wages than the Department of Labor does?
I hate to disappoint you - I know it's so much more satisfying to blame the problems of the world at the feet of some sinister foreigners and the tone of your posts makes it plain that you are champing at the bits to do so - but your arguments ring hollow and sound a whole lot more like conspiracy theory than fact.
cap
(7,170 posts)30-60 percent of projects were staffed by liberal arts graduates who learned computer skills on the job. You have never seen a company make a commitment to training the eay IBM trained its staff and contractors the way they did I. The 80s. Everyone regardless of seniority level was run through classes on the computer language used, systems engineering, object oriented design, test, qa, configuration management, etc.
The Internet happened In its early stages without the h1bs. God, I saw all types of people rise to the occasion. Guys, who took care of pools, or we're in construction became network administrators. People from the inner city went from Job Core to working as entry level tech. A lot of people just sat at their desks put in some overtime and learned the skills for better paying jobs.
Rosie the riveter happened during world war II. American housewives set production records at long beach ca. This can be done.
As far as software localization is concerned, it can be done by programmers who don't speak the language. At Yamaha, we turned out multilingual versions by programmers who didn't speak the language. If you know about the programming for localization, itcan be done without a working knowledge of the language. We had native speakers overseas who prepared the text and proofread. Not an H1b needed.
The very fact that you think one job ad is sufficient to demonstrate lack of qualified engineers shows your bias. Sorry, it usually takes more than one ad to hire someone or even one week of running an ad. That's why companies run multiple ads when they start searching for h1bs to hire themselves. Ask your HR folks how many times it takes to run an ad in order to hire someone.
Sorry, but DOL does not mandate large circulation nor mandate that the ads are placed in papers that software engineers use to look for a job. I've seen the ads in very local papers that software engineers do not use to look for a job.
How do I know that DOL isnt using proper surveys? I read the testimony given by experts for the subcommittee investigating H1B abuse. Look at what Senator Grassley and Durbin are doing and you will see well documented abuse of H1B. Also, there is a DUer who used to work for DOL who regularly posts here.
I really don't appreciate your ad hominem attack as this is a legitimate subject for discussion. You are losing the debate on the merits and are looking for a way out.
primavera
(5,191 posts)Let me see if I can sort them all out.
I appreciate that the world is a different place than it once was and that the early work on the internet was done by pioneers by people with different skill sets than are employed today. Is that a bad thing? I guess I'm not really sure, it makes intuitive sense to me that, as an area of activity develops and becomes more sophisticated, people with more specialized skill sets would naturally come into play more. Should we still be hiring liberal arts grads with little or no prior training to tackle the complex programming tasks associated with the modern internet?
With respect to software localization, no doubt you are right that the linguistic components requiring native fluency could be outsourced overseas, but even you do not contest the need for native fluency. At that point, the question becomes one of whether you're going to have that work done here or abroad - not whether it's going to be done at all. From a business perspective, it arguably makes a certain amount of sense to have someone in house who can provide that expertise without having to be constantly communicating with someone halfway around the world. From a public policy point of view, the salary paid to someone working in the US as opposed to someone working outside the US provides benefits through the ability to tax that salary through income tax and through secondary economic activity, i.e., the foreign worker living in the US will spend much of their income at US grocery stores, gas stations, department stores, restaurants, etc., etc., etc., which benefits the US economy. The salary paid here is thus at least partially recycled back into the economy. When it's paid tp an outsourced service abroad, all of the benefits of taxes and secondary economic activity go to the host country and that salary is a dead loss to the US economy. So, if you're going to have to hire someone to provide a service unobtainable in the US, there are valid reasons for bringing someone to the US to perform it rather than outsourcing it.
As for advertising jobs, whenever I did this sort of thing, I was aways required to publish ads in multiple publications, at least one of which had to be the newspaper with the largest circulation locally. That obviously varies from region to region. In some small town in the middle of nowhere, the most widely read publication may be the local paper or it may be the main newspaper from the nearest major city. Practitioners look to - and receive - guidance from the Department of Labor on such points. It also varies depending upon the type of work. For more academic positions, ads get run not just in local newspapers, but nationally in trade journals and professional association newsletters and so on. Publication in multiple sources is standard. You may have seen ads run in small local papers, but that doesn't mean that the same ad wasn't run in other publications as well. I'm sorry, but you're mistaken when you say that the Department of Labor doesn't mandate specific advertising requirements. I've done this for many years, at different times and in different parts of the country, and DoL has always given me extremely specific requirements for advertising. Are there instances where some local DoL office fails to do so? I couldn't say, I'm sure anything is possible, but I can tell you that they have certainly never cut me any slack when it came to advertising requirements. True, that's anecdotal evidence based solely upon my personal experience, but then, so is your observation about having seen ads in small town newspapers. Unless your personal experience exceeds my own, which I doubt, I'm not persuaded that your anecdotal experience is more valid than mine.
The duration of advertising may or may not be sufficient, I'm honestly not sure. Practitioners follow the guidelines established by the laws governing such matters - what else would you have them do? If there's a problem with ads not being run long enough, then I, for one, would be fine with changing the regs to require longer publication periods. But I do think that there needs to be some balance between protecting local workers and creating undue burdens upon employers. You say you don't believe that the required advertising periods are long enough, so what would be long enough? Does the employer need to run ads for a month? For six months? For a year? At what point does the employer get to say, look, I honestly made a good faith effort to find US workers and no one took me up on my offer? I get the impression from your statements that you don't believe that that ever occurs; that, if an employer were to simply look hard enough, they would eventually find a US worker to do the job they require. But it's not always easy. Some of the employers I've worked with were based in out of the way parts of the country and nobody wanted to move there. In that regard, the migrant has a formidable natural advantage: they are already leaving their home and the families and friends behind; going someplace that isn't home to them is already a price they've resigned themselves to paying. At that point, one place that isn't home is more as less as good as any other place that also isn't home, so they can go pretty much anywhere. There's nothing sinister or nefarious about that. I presently live in New Orleans and the local job market really sucks, but I love New Orleans and I don't want to live anyplace else, so an employer in Raleigh or wherever, even though they have more and better jobs to offer, is not going to be receiving any job applications from me. So how long does the Raleigh employer have to keep trying unsuccessfully to persuade me to apply before they will can be allowed to conclude that I'm never going to want their job and they need to look elsewhere?
Your reference to the testimonies delivered to a subcommittee investigating H-1B abuse I think sheds some light on your perspective. A committee specifically dedicated to investigating abuse is naturally going to focus on just that: the abuse. They're not going to spend a lot of time talking about the majority cases when the program functioned flawlessly and with perfect integrity. So any testimony provided within that specific context is of course going to be heavily skewed towards the problems with the program. At no point in this discussion, or any of the others like it, have I ever said that the H-1B program doesn't have its fair share of abuses. I have no doubt whatsoever that every endeavor, public or private, ever undertaken in the entire history of the human race possesses SOME level of abuse. The world contains opportunistic and unethical people, there will always, always, always be some abuses and there will never, ever, ever be a program so ironclad that people will not be able to find some chink in its armor somewhere. The question then is not whether there is abuse, but is the abuse so extensive that it negates the positive benefits of the program. In addition to having worked in the private sector with H-1B clients, I have also worked for many years as an immigration policy analyst with various DC thinktanks and, although the H-1B program was not my focus, I ran into reports prepared by other analysts on a regular basis and none of them concluded that the rate of abuse in the H-1B program was exceptionally great. Again, that obviously doesn't mean that there is no abuse, nor does it mean that we shouldn't be constantly seeking weaknesses in this - and every other program - to try to make it better. And I applaud the work of people like Grassley and Durbin in trying to find those weak points and fix them; no matter how good a program is, it could always stand to be better. What I do not applaud is the wholesale, reactionary condemnation by many of an entire program that, on the whole, does a lot more good than harm.
I also do not appreciate your dismissive insinuation that I'm attacking you and am doing so because I'm losing on merits. This is, as you say, a legitimate subject for discussion, and I am merely correcting your misunderstandings.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)His one saving asset is that he is in the Air Nat Guard in the same field that he is studying. His very high clearance and knowledge of military systems is the only reason that he is employable at a good wage (for now anyway). If he didn't have that I would have advised him to look for another field of study.
Retrograde
(10,137 posts)Originally National Student Defense Loans, later changed to National Student Direct Loans, IIRC, this was a program started during the Space Race to make sure the US had a supply of trained technical people. It provided low-cost (mine were 3%) loans to people in majoring in engineering or science, and the payback period didn't start until well after graduation so one had some time to get established in a job. I'd like to see a program like that for professions - and this can include skilled labor as well - the the country needs.
Of course, we also need to beef up the math and science programs in primary and secondary skills, or figure out how to get college students up to the level where they can handle the introductory courses.
SharonAnn
(13,776 posts)I heard one company on TV complaining about not being able to get workers for a skilled welding job on an assembly line. They would even train an otherwise qualified individual. But, no applicants. They were looking at getting H1B people.
You guessed it, they were offering a little under $11 an hour.
Our qualified workers have a higher "going rate" than that.
If you can't get people, it's usually because you're not offering a high enough pay.
D'oh!
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)H-1B visas are known as 'specialty occupation' visas. The occupation must be the kind of job that requires at least a U.S. bachelor's degree or above (or foreign equivalent or combination of experience and education where 3 years of full-time experience equal 1 year of undergraduate studies) in order to be performed. Welding does not meet this standard. An exception to this rule is for the H-1B3 category for fashion models and/or limited occupations that are considered to be artisan/crafts such as professional knitters and master chocolatiers.
Furthermore, in addition to the occupation being a 'specialty occupation' the worker must possess the appropriate educational credentials. Welding does not require a bachelor's degree and it's not considered an art or craft such as chocolatiers or professional knitters.
If this company was looking for H-1B welders, good luck with that. I'd love to see those petitions and I'm sure I'd love to see the denials from USCIS.
Ford_Prefect
(7,901 posts)They created the false assertion that American workers were not efficient or educated enough. Then they lobbied congress to get favorable laws to suit the price they wanted to pay. By building a new class of employee who cannot expect to have a retirement benefit or other benefits ongoing from their employer the cost of doing business is limited. It also creates a class of employee who is virtually unable to complain about management practices which are either unfair to the employee or unwise professionally. It also allows the employers to set the wage level of an entire field of employment as has happened in IT.
It is true there are indeed many well educated engineers and other professionals to be found elsewhere. However there are many good, talented, educated, capable and experienced engineers and professionals presently unemployed who already reside here. One reason some of them are unemployed is that with experience comes wisdom to tell the difference between good and bad judgement on the part of management. Another reason is that some of them are 40 or older and are calculated to be a likely burden by insurance companies hence adding to the overhead of doing business. Such an estimate leaves out the real value of human capital a firm needs ongoing. It is also a method of socializing the costs and passing them to the taxpayer and the customer.
One relatively recent practice is to hire according to a limited production contract. This makes everyone working on the product or project into a temporary employee or independent contractor.
The simple truth now is that many companies want only the perfect employee at the perfect price. The H-1B program was created to allow them the choice they prefer at the price they prefer.
Yavin4
(35,441 posts)We have trained American IT professionals that will take the work at a minute's notice. The problem is that American ITers can't work at entry-level, McDonald's type wages because of the cost of living in the U.S., and the student loan debt that they have to pay off.
The whole "shortage of STEM workers" is a giant myth very much like "trickle down". Trained, skilled American workers should be paid the prevailing rate for their talent.
primavera
(5,191 posts)But there are lots of valid reasons for having professionals from other countries come work here and collaborate with our professionals. Maybe some coastal restoration expect from Nigeria wants to learn how we've handled oil spill clean-ups on the Gulf Coast so that s/he can apply those techniques to the smoldering wasteland that the Niger River delta has become at the hands of the oil and gas industry. Maybe some Australian scientist has made some important discoveries on marine algae that are potentially very useful for understanding red tide in this country (true example, btw, I actually worked with someone just like that once). Maybe some American company wants to be able to export their products to other parts of the world and they need native speakers of the local languages to translate their content into the local tongues (another real life example, I've known lots and lots of people who did that). Suppose a local Persian carpet retailer wants to be able to offer repair services to its customers, so it brings over an Iranian rug repair expert who can teach them how to do that (yet another real life example). The point is, there are tons and tons of valid reasons for allowing professional workers from different parts of the world to work here temporarily and share the benefit of their experience and expertise. The H-1B program offers only temporary employment authorization - not permanent - and the roughly 100,000 or so visas (it changes from year to year) authorized represent an infinitesimally tiny percentage of the 150 million or so jobs that exist in the US. In sum, the benefits are high and the costs, while not nonexistent, are relatively low.
Yet many here are on a veritable crusade against the H-1B program, convinced that it exists solely as a tool for providing low cost immigrant labor to corporations. To be sure, there are abuses of the program, as there are abuses of every program, both public and private, and yes, as long as there are abuses, we should endeavor to minimize those abuses. But so many here have already made up their minds after having read a few inflammatory anecdotal opinion pieces by disgruntled people in the software community who believe - maybe rightly, maybe wrongly - that H-1B workers stole their jobs, and are ready to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. It is disappointing to see so many here readily subscribing to such reactionary rabble rousing.
cap
(7,170 posts)Those qualifications are quite high and cover Nigerians or Australians or Iranians that you talk about.
You have to be a real expert. H1b is a different story.
ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)They seem to have a lot to say when congress attempts to pass laws to stop this bullshit, stating that more restrictions are not necessary.
...Fuckin' crickets.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,202 posts)How is there any enforcement that companies are supposed to pay the "prevailing wage"? The visa holders are going to report their employers for fear they'll be sent home.
What smart kid is going to go to college and get a degree in IT, electrical engineering or any other field that has lots of H1-B visa imports that they will have to compete with? That's while Bill Gates and others beating the STEM drum regarding public schools are full of shit. If American IT professionals were paid an appropriate wage and had some job security there wouldn't be a "shortage" requiring importing workers from other countries.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)without notice.
One of the requirements of the H-1B is that employers must maintain public access files for anyone's inspection at any time, where the employer makes attestations as to wage, benefits, worksite conditions, etc.
DOL can inspect an employer at any time without notice, ICE can inspect without notice, USCIS can and does worksite visits, each state's DOL can inspect, and so on.
The other thing is that the H-1B petition includes a job offer contract (for new employees) indicating the wage or three most recent paystubs (for current employees who are extending their visas and/or changing to a new employer).
The attestations an employer makes are under penalty of perjury and criminal prosecution. Any serious and legitimate employer does not do so willy-nilly without being aware of the penalties.
My undergrad institution is a state university where the great majority of students are in the engineering department. For two years, I was a double major and one of my majors was computer engineering. All my friends are graduates in either computer or electrical engineering. All were U.S. born. All have been employed without interruptions since graduating in 1995. Two of my friends started their own company, developing software for online classes and quizzes.
At my father's employer, a major aerospace engineering company, there are positions in mechanical and aerospace engineering that have been vacant and open for almost 3 years. They simply can't find anyone. Of course, they require that the employee have a clear background check in order to secure government secret clearances (no DUIs or major traffic infractions at all, by the way). Because the U.S. government only releases certain levels of clearances to U.S. citizens, the company does not have the luxury to hire non-citizens.
At my current employer, certain IT positions in database architecture and in other areas have been open for over 2 years. Strangely enough, we have not had much luck recruiting foreign workers either. We've had interested applicants, but the dominant factor is the unwillingness to move to Las Vegas.
My sister's area - medical research - is also in dire need of help. Although they have been able to find some professionals, most are foreign-born. According to her, one of the major problems that makes it difficult to hire U.S. workers for those highly-technical and skilled positions is that there is a resistance to accepting evolution as a scientific fact.
cap
(7,170 posts)I worked in defense/aerospace during the Reagan buildup when the defense industry was awash in money and had many more job reqs out. We found people. We just spec'd the job and accepted similar qualifications. Or, we just took an intelligent person and let the, learn on the job. Most people came up to speed in 2-6 weeks. As far as clearances went, people were hired and worked on non sensitive portions of the system at first or they got a temporary secret clearance (took 2 weeks) and worked on secret projects till their secret clearance came in. They worked on secret projects till their top secret clearances came in.
Your company only needs run of the mill database qualifications like every other company. Oracle, java (maybe C++) , SQL, and maybe some ancillary toolsets for modelling. Beyond that you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Medical research, I dare say is the same sort of over spec'd nonsense.
primavera
(5,191 posts)The petitioning employer has to prepare and submit salary documentation and wage memos describing in detail how much everyone in a comparable position earns and, if they earn so much as a dime more or less, they have to explain why. Those documents are both submitted to the Department of Labor for their analysis and approval before the immigration service will issue the H-1B and the employer has to make those same documents available to the public for open inspection at any time, along with contact information for the Department of Labor so that any concerned person may report the employer.
I think a lot of people underestimate the role of geography in assessing the availability of qualified employees. Here in New Orleans where I live, a great many of the city's inhabitants are born, raised, and die here without ever leaving. They love where they live, their families are all here, their friends are all here, they own property here, they have no desire to give it all up and go someplace else for employment. And, sure, Louisiana universities produce qualified graduates with computer science degrees, but Microsoft is in Redmond, Washington, not in New Orleans. Apple is in Cupertino, California, not in New Orleans. And New Orleanians don't want to move to Redmond or Cupertino. Migrant workers in this respect have a huge advantage: they've already decided to leave their homes to obtain professional experience elsewhere, so they're perfectly content to go wherever it is that the employer needs them to be.
cap
(7,170 posts)And you will be amazed at the talent you can find at home. In the heyday of the Internet bubble, we had folks from the inner city getting hired and guess what? They performed.
mckara
(1,708 posts)Several years ago, I tried to get a H-1B visa for a caregiver, my former sister-in-law from the Philippines, and it was impossible for non-corporations to get cooperation from the government or the legal system. The system is so corrupt that it's nothing short of disgusting!
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)The whole point of the thread is that we need to put American jobs first. Whether engineers and doctors, or housekeepers and fruit pickers - unless and until we have a zero percent unemployment rate, NOBODY should be coming to the United States for employment.
mckara
(1,708 posts)Try it sometime
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)to get things started up and/or get the operations in line with the foreign HQ? There are plenty of visa holders who do just that for plenty of foreign companies with affiliates, branches or subsidiaries in the U.S. In fact, the intracompany transfer visa for managers/executives (the L-1A) was designed with this purpose in mind.
Are you saying that the U.S. should close its borders to any such person? Do you honestly believe that a U.S. worker can do this kind of job?
Are you proposing no immigration whatsoever - legal or illegal? Good luck with that. Take a look at any scientific paper from any U.S. university and you'll see plenty of foreign names. Since U.S. colleges and universities are second to IT companies for the number of H-1B visas (and that is not considering all the other types of visas out there), there is a very good likelihood that these foreign names on these papers are immigrants. Are you saying they should be kicked out too?
cap
(7,170 posts)A few executive managerial types at the top and a few technical types sprinkled in the ranks of the local workers to help with liaison at lower levels.
We could slow down immigration for a while. Wait till we go back to boom times and then open up as needed.
WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)The B visa is better. There are allowances for domestic workers and caregivers under the B visa.
mckara
(1,708 posts)Families and private citizens have little to no opportunities for getting these visas. Corporations needing cheap labor monopolize the entire process.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)Just another way to say greed
sakabatou
(42,155 posts)
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)jsr
(7,712 posts)To be saddled with enough student loan debt that they work constantly and can't be involved in the political process, then die paupers.
BadgerKid
(4,553 posts)Some of these undergrads include students from abroad who will pay out-of-state tuition to go to a 4-year institution, which is nice for the universities to support their costs -- among other things.
I imagine some of these students could secure US jobs, perhaps via the H1B mechanism but I don't know how that works. Maybe there's a revolving door type trick involved.
midnight
(26,624 posts)
Skittles
(153,169 posts)it may be those folk are coveted for their CHEAPNESS an not their "TALENT" 
daybranch
(1,309 posts)like the silicon valley guys do when they gey a phd for the price of a recent college graduate with a bachelors. I have heard this is the Gates visa but I do not know.
greymattermom
(5,754 posts)afford to train so many IT folks, doctors, engineers, etc. for us? Is school free there? How can they afford it?
Nihil
(13,508 posts)The money saved from not waging war around the world (for the sake of corporate masters)
can, strangely enough, be put towards education & health.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)That's the only reason I can think of for singling out THIS particular company.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)We should not subsidise with Federal and State funds any business who hires visa guest workers. No Gov. or State contracts should go to them either.
markiv
(1,489 posts)markiv
(1,489 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)shocked to find worker exploitation going on here.
Yavin4
(35,441 posts)The only way to stop this is to build a unionized workforce.
markiv
(1,489 posts)Yavin4
(35,441 posts)or stories about people unfairly being fired, underpaid, treated like shit, etc. I will always post the very simple sentence: "This is why people formed unions."
Everything that is happening today to laborers in America, also happened in the past. In fact, it was much, much worse in the past. The answer was that people formed unions to protect their interests.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Everyone knows that this is what is going on, and not just at this company.
Tons of technical jobs are posted, but really are only filled from H1B visa holders.
