Gun owners losing 'Fla. loophole' can't conceal anger

[onehandle]

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer



SEVERAL Philadelphia gun owners with nonresident permits from Florida to carry a concealed weapon say that when state Attorney General Kathleen Kane announced Friday that she was closing the so-called Florida gun loophole she also should have promised to look at why so many Philadelphians sought permits from Florida in the first place.

The loophole allowed state residents who didn't have a permit from their own county or whose permit was denied or revoked to obtain one from Florida through the mail. Pennsylvania police had to honor the permits because of a reciprocity agreement.

Others have tried to get Philadelphia permits but were rejected by the Philadelphia Gun Permit Unit, which can deny permits based on "character or reputation" alone. Oliver said that some of his students who had no criminal convictions were denied permits anyway.

"She's the first politician who made good on a campaign promise within 45 days in office," he said. "She kept her word."

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/state/20130211_Gun_owners_losing__Fla__loophole__can_t_conceal_anger.html

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Fantastic news that will drive the (temporary) wingnuts in charge of our blue, blue state batty.

Expect to see more of this.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Not really my subject your gun laws

other than the fact I find them weird. This seems a good step in the right direction.

[Taverner]

28. Our guns laws are simple: Buy as many as you want and fondle

In UK, they control guns
In US, guns control YOU!

[baldguy]

2. Reciprocity agreements are DESIGNED to subvert the law & help criminals obtain weapons.

[ButterflyBlood]

4. I doubt that was the intention here

It could just be due to Florida's status as a popular retirement destination. But is obviously being abused.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Not true

Reciprocity is based that you have one in your own state. They are by and large a good thing. Cleaning up the wording is too.

[onehandle]

7. It's just another path in the 'iron highway' that brings guns in from the South to the North.

Which does ultimately supply criminals with weapons.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Oh bullshit.

They are designed so I can cross state lines without instantly becoming a criminal. Something I can do heading east for 4 states with my WA CPL, no problem. Something I cannot do, going one state to the south, because Oregon has no reciprocity with WA.

They SHOULD be just as universally accepted as driver's licenses. If that means unifying all state requirements for CPL's so be it.

Saying they are DESIGNED to subvert the law/help criminals is flat out disingenuous.

[Historic NY]

3. Why not just get a state issued permit or one from another county?

I hold a Pa permit & I'm from NY.

[HockeyMom]

6. FLORIDA should stop this practice

You are not a resident of the state, you cannot get a permit from that state, period.

[Divernan]

8. She'll investigate Gov.Corbett's role in slow-walking Sandusky investigation

For those who don't know PA politics, current GOP governor, One-Term Tom Corbett was Attorney General and stalled the Sandusky investigation for years because he was planning/running for Governor and didn't want to alienate the huge numbers of Penn State alumni/voters.

[onehandle]

10. I hope she does. I want to know who we'll be running against him.

I don't see a clear choice.

[msanthrope]

25. Allyson Schwartz may. She's a front runner. nt

[onehandle]

26. She's my rep and is popular in this formerly red county.

That would be sweet.

[Remmah2]

9. GOOD!

"The loophole allowed state residents who didn't have a permit from their own county or whose permit was denied or revoked to obtain one from Florida through the mail."

Finally a law that makes sense and targets a specific item. Somebody tell the rest of the politicians.

[samsingh]

11. they only want to conceal guns

[pipoman]

12. Look for 'shall issue' in PA soon..

'may issue' feeds corruption and cronyism in government...as has apparently been demonstrated in this state..equal protection and all that..

[msanthrope]

15. No--we won't go to "shall issue" because there's no way that gets through the City Council.

Philly gun permits are not impossible to get. But they do require some work.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. So, first thing to happen will be state-preemption.

Then it won't matter what the Philly City Council wants.

[msanthrope]

19. I need to stop laughing.....the state ain't gonna make it easier for

the residents of Philadelphia to buy a gun. They just aren't.

Frankly, your reply suggests a profound misapprehension of what goes on in my state.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. I don't know the current makeup of your state's legislature, but

that doesn't mean it can't happen. It's not even a political left/right issue. WA state has it, and this state is solidly blue. Seattle City Council is constantly crying about it.

[msanthrope]

23. I think I will direct you to James Carville, who described my state as

'Philadelphia on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, and Tennessee in between.'

There's no upside for the PA state legislature to make it easier for Philly residents to own guns. Further, Corbett doesn't want to piss off the cops unions with 2014 coming up.

[bossy22]

32. police unions aren't strong gun control proponents

they aren't exactly pro-gun either. Police unions can be "bought" by one simple thing- money. You offer large amount of dollars for LE activities and they won't say a peep about gun control

[pipoman]

20. If the state goes "shall issue", the city council won't have a say..

shall issue is nothing more than uniform standards which if met by an applicant, requires the issuing authority to issue...no cronyism, no bribery, no capriciousness..

[msanthrope]

22. Oh, I think you quite incorrect on two counts....

1) The state isn't going to make it easier for the residents of Philly to own guns. There's no upside for them.

2) The City Council will have quite a bit to say. As will the cops union. And trust me, Corbett does not want to piss off the cops union going into 2014.

[bossy22]

31. PA has state pre-emption

the difficulty in buying a firearm is not much different in philly as it is in centre county.

The city council has pretty much no say as it is now.

[CreekDog]

34. the conservative position, again?

and I'm sure what Philly and Camden need, above all, are more guns on the streets.

[pipoman]

35. What position would that be?

No position taken. You really should save your insults for those posts which are actually doing what you wish to accuse them of..

[sir pball]

39. The state (last I lived there) is shall issue.

Getting my permit in Blair County was literally a case of walking into the courthouse, filling out essentially a 4473 and getting an NICS, and $25 and 10 minutes later getting my picture taken and my License To Carry Firearms printed on the spot. No training or qualification requirements, just a clean background.

[pipoman]

41. Yeah,

It sounds like there is some discretionary ambiguity written into the law in PA. It sounds that it allows for denial based on the subjective determination of "good character"...which leaves jurisdictions essentially in the position of "may issue" rather than "shall issue" if true..

[bossy22]

29. PA already is shall issue and has state preemption

philly happens to interpret their "good character" more strictly than most places but it is in general shall issue.

there are about 25,000 CCW permits in philadelphia- and those are just permits to carry. Philly doesnt require that permit to own a gun due to state preemption

[msanthrope]

13. Ah--this is going to screw assholes in Philadelphia, cause you have to get references

from actual human beings to get your permit. And they do check up on you.....

I have been a reference on a gun permit (a neighbor) and the Gun Permit Unit does call and follow up.

[marybourg]

14. It was always believed in N.Y. that doctors whose licenses

to practice were revoked in N.Y. were able to go to Fla and get licensed there.

[Sgent]

40. Actually FL

is a bit of a pain in the ass when it comes to medical licensing.

Because they do not want retirees to get and maintain a license they will only accept the USMLE for 5 years, so for older doctors that move there, they have to retake the entire set of licensing exams -- which most probably can't do (or at least without a month+ of prep). Remember that this a set of 3 tests, given over 8 day in 3 different years, and the tests are given at the point the student finishes that portion of the curriculum (hard science test after year 2 of med. school).

No other state I'm aware of is this strict -- or even close to it. I think CA allows you to have taken your specialty boards within 10 years, but they are the 2nd strictest -- and most active physicians I know of can pass their specialty exams on first sitting with relatively little prep.

[marybourg]

42. And my memory from N.Y.

is of what my long-gone parents and their friends, who wintered in Fla, used to say. I'm curious about your reference to "older doctors". Is there a different requirement past a certain age?

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. They did away with reciprocity for teacher certification

But you can get a gun??

Wow.

[msanthrope]

24. Welcome to my state!!! nt

[freshwest]

27. Denying permits to those 'whose permit was denied or revoked' is reasonable.

It's not fair for someone to get a permit from a permit mill in Florida by mail, when they have been adjudicated or otherwise found a risk by fellow citizens. Sounds like a money-making scam that shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. If the person is only visiting the state as a Florida resident, that's one thing, but if permanent, they should abide by the rules like all their neighbors have. Oh, gosh, I sound like such a school marm for saying that...

[bossy22]

30. Is it always "reasonable"?

I think it depends on the reason for denial/revocation.

If a permit is denied due to a history of unstable behavior- then yes, i'd agree it is reasonable

If a permit is denied because an individual had a few parking tickets last year (this does happen in philadelphia, they will deny you if you have had a few parking tickets in a short amount of time- irregardless if you paid them) I don't see how you can argue it is reasonable

[whopis01]

33. I think the always reasonable argument is valid

because you are talking about one state providing a means of circumventing rules established in another state.

If, according the rules in Philadelphia, I am not allowed to get a permit then it is not reasonable for another state to issue me a permit to carry a weapon in Philadelphia.

If the rules in Philadelphia are unreasonable, as you suggested, then those rules should be examined and reworked. But allowing another state to override them just doesn't make sense.

[christx30]

36. If your state

is too strict on something that effects your life, I think you should have a right to ask another state to help.
If abortion is banned in your state, would you want to prosecute a woman from crossing state lines to get one?

[whopis01]

37. No - I wouldn't want to do that.

But I think this is a little different. In the scenario you presented, the person went to another state, performed a legal act in that state and then returned to the original state. She wasn't under the jurisdiction of the original state when she performed the act in question - so there would have been no law broken.

So, do I think a Philadelphia resident should have the right to get a permit from Florida? Sure, why not? Do I think that permit should be honored in Philadelphia? If Philadelphia chooses to do so - then sure, why not? But I don't think they should be forced to do so.

Let me just add - I don't think women should be prosecuted for that anywhere - I realize the point of your example wasn't to delve into a discussion about abortion - but just wanted to make my view on that clear anyway. However, even with that thought in mind - I think the way that should be approached is to make it legal in every state - not by having one state try to overrule another.

[christx30]

38. But if you are

In a red state that wants to restrict something (abortion, gay marriage, ect) you will have to go to a blue state in order to get those things done. And in the past there have been laws against crossing state lines for "immoral purposes". I know you want a marriage that you get in New York to be valid in Texas or Arizona. If you live in Texas, you'll never be able to convince the state legislator to vote for it. But you can take a trip to New York and do it.

Some people like their guns. And they are never going to stop. They want to have their weapons no matter what. And if they feel the laws in their blue state is their blue state is too restrictive, they are going to get that permit from a red state where it is less restrictive. I don't know what the answer to this is. We want at least have some reciprocity. But where is the line drawn?