Breaking: 2 Killed, 1 Injured by Man Armed with Rifle at Mall Near Portland (20-60 Shots Reported)

[Hissyspit]

Source: Oregonian

By The Oregonian
on December 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM, updated December 11, 2012 at 4:09 PM

Two people were killed and at least one other was shot by at Clackamas Town Center by a man brandishing a semiautomatic rifle, according to preliminary reports.

Emergency dispatchers received reports that a shooting may have occurred near Macy’s and that a man was seen with an AR-15 rifle near the mall’s food court around 3:29 p.m. The man also may be wearing body armor.

3:56 p.m.:John Canzano, sports columnist for The Oregonian, reported that as many as 60 shots were fired while he was shopping at the mall.

Police have blocked off entrances to the mall and are searching the mall.

Read more: http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/clackamas_town_center_shooting.html

---

@Reuters: FLASH: SHOOTING REPORTED AT OREGON SHOPPING MALL, LOCAL SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SAYS

@CBSNews: BREAKING: At least two shot in Portland, Ore., mall
http://cbsn.ws/RnS62D


At least two shot in Portland, Ore., mall
December 11, 2012

Updated 7:07 p.m. ET

PORTLAND, Ore. Emergency dispatchers in Portland, Ore., are receiving reports that a man with a rifle reportedly fired as many as 20 shots inside a shopping mall.

The Oregonian reports the dispatchers received reports that a shooting may have occurred near Macy's inside the Clackamas Town Center and that a man was seen with a rifle near the mall's food court.

A dispatch worker confirmed to CBS affiliate KOIN that at least two people were shot. Witnesses tell KOIN the town center was evacuated and placed on lockdown.

Clackamas County sheriff's deputies are responding. Deputies

[onehandle]

1. Moar guns. Moar guns. Moar guns.

Sez the gungeoneers.

[Electric Monk]

21. He could have done it with something else... lawn furniture maybe...

[TPaine7]

28. A sign forbidding guns, a law against carrying in public, or a law against shooting people...

Any of those would have prevented this crime.

[littlewolf]

73. the mall is a guns free zone nt

[TPaine7]

82. Is it?

I have never seen a no-guns sign at a mall in the Portland metro area. I can't say I've been in that mall proper, but we went to see Thor at the theater attached to the mall.

I'll have to go over there and check it out.

[littlewolf]

93. Disclaimer: I was told this by someone else.

you very well could be right.

[Remmah2]

151. Some moran probably thought it read "free guns at the mall".

So they showed up to protest.

[Trunk Monkey]

163. until it wasn't

Gun free or not I bet it was a murder free zone

[enlightenment]

86. There is no law against shooting people in Clackamas county?

Really?

[TPaine7]

101. People think we need laws to stop these things, so I was being sarcastic.

Forbidding guns in public, forbidding concealed carry, forbidding handguns, forbidding "assault rifles"--none of these would have prevented a person with a gun from killing two people in a mall.

What would have a chance would be banning all guns combined with draconian police state law enforcement tactics including completing the destruction of the 4th Amendment.

Of course it's not that hard to kill two people in a mall using a knife, and a crossbow is about the same size as an AR-15.

[enlightenment]

106. I like your second sentence.

I don't think we have much in common.

[TPaine7]

108. That's ok. You have been civil to me; not everyone has to agree.

In fact, the less you agree with me, the higher the possibility I can learn from you.

Peace.

[lbrtbell]

37. He could have used a bomb

Would that have made you happy? Because bombs can't kill nearly as many people as a gun, right?

We need to get past blaming the weapon and start blaming a failed mental health system that allows people to slip into the state of mind that makes them want to commit such acts. Even if no guns were available to these people, they would still kill...only they would use homemade weaponry that could kill a lot more people.

These severely mentally ill people need help BEFORE they get to this point.

[SoapBox]

43. He did not use a bomb.

Period.

He used a gun.

[RegieRocker]

133. Duh but he could have

That escapes you doesn't it. And when a bomb is used you will ignore that also.

[TheCowsCameHome]

48. Give it up.

And I'll tell you what'll make me happy - when you fucking gun nuts finally understand the harm your toys are capable of causing.

[apocalypsehow]

90. Well said.

[spin]

104. To you I would qualify as a "gun nut." ...

I am well aware of the "harm" my "toys" are capable of causing. I lost a close family member because of the misuse of a firearm. The incident was ruled a suicide but was most likely to have been an accident caused by mixing alcohol with handling a loaded gun.

I support improving our existing firearm laws to make it far more difficult for those who have a violent criminal background or suffer from severe mental illness to obtain firearms. I also favor very strict enforcement and punishment for anyone caught illegally owning or carrying a firearm. However I do not support banning firearms or confiscating them. Over 80,000,000 people own over 300,000,000 firearms in our nation and the overwhelming majority handle them responsibly.

It is an unfortunate fact that firearms do cause tragedy but what is frequently ignored is that they can save lives when used for legitimate self defense. Obviously when you have as many people owning such a large quantity of any dangerous item you will have incidents that demonstrate just how harmful they can be. It is impossible to reduce such incidents to zero without finding a way to confiscate ALL firearms in our nation. The reality is that in a nation like ours with a very strong gun culture it is politically impossible to eliminate all civilian firearm ownership.

A high percentage of gun violence is due to gang warfare over turf and often this involves the activity of people who are involved in the trade of drugs. Our War on Drugs has been and will continue to be a total failure. We also have a health care system that all too often fails to treat those with mental illness effectively or is far too expensive for those who are suffering to afford.

Usually those who run amok and go on a shooting spree have waved numerous red flags in their past that should have alerted others. Even when detected the current system does require that the individual is reported to the NICS background check system. Often even the fact that a person who has been legally adjudged as having a serious mental issue is not reported to the NICS background check database and can still buy a firearm in a gun store as many states fail to report this data or are behind in reporting.

Also a violent criminal or someone suffering from serious mental problems can also buy a firearm from a private individual without a background check is also a significant problem. No means exists for me to obtain a background check on a person who wishes to buy one of my weapons. The best that I can do is to require that a buyer is a person that anyone who I sell a firearm to is an individual personally know and who has a valid concealed weapons permit. Consequently I rarely sell one of my firearms.

I also feel that anyone who buys a firearm or ammunition should have a card that shows that he has had firearm safety training. I would like to see firearm safety courses being a requirement for all high school students as well as first aid training. To me this only makes commonsense but many would argue that such training might interest students in the shooting sports.

I feel that if both sides of the gun control issue would simply sit down at a table, some valuable compromises could be worked out without requiring draconian changes. Unfortunately those who favor strong gun control all too frequently believe in an incremental approach with the final goal of eventually imposing laws similar to those in Great Britain. For example they favor another assault weapons ban followed by a ban on all semi-auto weapons and then a ban on all handguns. Since the pro gun side is well aware of this they oppose any ideas proposed by the gun control side.

I have a significant amount of money and time invested in my hobby and I enjoy the shooting sports. I realize that the misuse of firearms threatens my investment and I also hate the tragedy that the misuse of firearms causes. I personally believe that the majority of responsible gun owners agree with me.

You may never understand how a person could wish to own a dangerous weapon such as a firearm or to find shooting one enjoyable. If so, I doubt if anything I can say would change your opinion. I realize that many people hate firearms for good reason because of the pain that the misuse of these weapons has caused in their life. Of course I may be misinterpreting your post and you may be far more reasonable than I have assumed.

Since i have proposed some ideas on how our nation can reduced firearm violence perhaps you will take the time to reply with some suggestions on how you would solve the problem.

[Remmah2]

150. Intellectual dishonesty and the mouths of morons have probably killed more people than guns.

Last edited Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

But some people live for the moment and are incapable of comprehending the big picture, past, present and future.

[bongbong]

157. LOL

> Inellectual dishonesty and the mouths of morons have probably killed more people than guns.

When you can't even spell intellectual, you're spewing your NRA Talking Points too quickly.

[Remmah2]

160. Moral superiority is a funny thing.

Is says a lot about the character of the individual.

[bongbong]

164. Strawmen are funny

And used endlessly by NRA acolytes in lieu of real logic or points or anything.

[pop topcan]

244. I couldn't help noticing it took some other men with "toys" to neutralize the attacking guy...

would it have been better for them to arrive without arms and just watch him keep on killing until he got bored with it?

[Chorophyll]

57. That's enough. Seriously. You're ridiculous.

We have these shootings almost every week. That's the equivalent of a few bombs by now.

[crim son]

72. You've got that right.

And he didn't use a bomb, because guns are easily accessible and it's so much more manly to face the person you intend to murder rather than plant an explosive device and run.

Ugh.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

58. Let's see...

Obtaining all the materials necessary to build a bomb, constructing the bomb, scoping out a place to plant the bomb, planting the bomb inconspiciously, and hoping the bomb actually goes off.....

...or.....

Going to a gun shop and buying a gun.

Yeah, it's all the same.

[madokie]

66. Not many people know how to build a bomb, me included

I know how to buy and shoot a gun though, I do know how to do that

[Mojorabbit]

110. I think the google probably has it. Probably youtube also.

Stuff that I never imagined is right at the fingertips. The internet is amazing. I grew up in the age of encyclopedias and libraries.

[upaloopa]

226. You don't know he would need mental help until

he got to this point. He was a law abiding person and no law can decide you need mental health treatment.

[valerief]

52. +1

[alp227]

76. Thinking about it, this whole "GUNS & FREEDOM" religion pushed by the right is a SCAM.

Is it really freedom to be so worried about the next shooting or ambush attack that you carry a gun wherever you go? If you're so compelled to be toting wherever you walk out in public, what does that say about society?

Furthermore, if everyone had a gun and fired back, wouldn't things have been WORSE? And let's say only security guards were armed and then shot back. Well, good luck trying to avoid being falsely targeted. Sigh.

Questions the gun-worshipers will never answer.

[Laurian]

2. Oh, Jeez. Here we go again.

It's not the right time to talk about gun laws, though.

[southernyankeebelle]

13. Your right we have to wait til Fox News says its ok.

[YoungDemCA]

3. Was just about to post this...but you beat me to it...

Anyway, horrible, horrible news.

RIP to the victims. Hope the police can catch him before he causes more harm.

[me b zola]

4. I'm listening to it on the local news

Just as it was breaking I was worried that my DIL might be there with the kids...then my grand-daughter called just to say hello

[Viva_La_Revolution]

45. I called my youngest just to make sure

"Mom, you know I don't go anywhere near malls!" I could feel his eyes rolling at me over the line, but I felt better.

[SoapBox]

5. Guns, Guns and more Guns.

Get ready...the Gun Defenders Team will arrive shortly.

Another terrible incident.

[primavera]

9. Lol! Yep, brace yourselves...

... I think I can hear the rotors of the Gungeon SWAT team's helicopter even now.

[bongbong]

158. LOL

The Delicate Flowers have their NRA Talking Points all polished to a shiny finish, ready to lie-bomb DU and continue their attempt to move the gun-Overton window to the right.

[apocalypsehow]

95. Yep. Wish we could rec posts.

[crim son]

6. If knives are as easy to use as guns, then

why don't we hear about mass knivings instead of mass shootings? Why don't we still use swords and shields on the battlefield? Sick of the pro-gun nuts and have no patience any more for any of them.

[lbrtbell]

42. No guns = killers will use bombs

Why can't you anti-gunners get that through your heads?

Oh, that's right...it's much easier to believe in fairy tales of the magic land with no guns (as if criminals can't obtain guns illegally, LOL), than to face the reality that our country's mental health care system has failed us.

We need single-payer health care NOW.

[SoapBox]

44. What we do have in our heads is that he used a gun, not a bomb.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

47. It takes more effort and more time to build a bomb

There's more chance the nutjob will be apprehended before he can massacre innocent people if he has to build a bomb.

Since the Supreme Court has now officially sanctioned the NRA's view of the Second Amendment, I say repeal it.

Replace it with an amendment that allows weapons and allows limits. There is no reason for anyone other than a soldier or a SWAT team to have an assault rifle with a 50 round clip.

[progressoid]

54. 8775 killed with guns. 4 with explosives.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

[TheCowsCameHome]

67. Don't waste your time.

It's futile. Just sayin'...............

[DanTex]

62. You mean like what happens in other countries with sensible gun laws?

Oh wait, no, that doesn't happen at all. The rest of the developed world has sensible gun laws, and far lower homicide rates than the US. Like most right-wing talking points, "guns don't kill people" is not just idiotic, it is actually contradicted by data.

[fun n serious]

114. Kids 7 and 11 threaten woman with loaded gun in neighboring multnomah county.. days apart.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html

[pop topcan]

245. Jamaica instituted a total ban a few years ago. It is drowning in gun violence as we pontificate.

That's one implementation of "sensible" (according to some people) gun laws. We CAN discuss the legal aspects of this even as we acknowledge the senseless and awful tragedy of this morning.

[MADem]

7. I saw Portland and I thought Maine.

Good grief. I have friends who live near there. What a shame. Why does this shit happen, seemingly every other damn year?

[Laurian]

17. Every other year? Every few months, unfortunately.

There's another one waiting in the wings, I'm sure......

[Chorophyll]

19. Every couple of weeks, by my count.

Ugh.

[MADem]

91. I'm talking about a "holiday" shooter... nt

[BeyondGeography]

8. Another day, another American explosion

You go, gunnas.

[Coyotl]

10. Suspect on the loose after shots fired at Clackamas Town Center kgw.com - 7 minutes ago A masked gun

Suspect on the loose after shots fired at Clackamas Town Center
kgw.com ?- 7 minutes ago
A masked gunman was on the loose after opening fire at Clackamas Town Center Tuesday afternoon. Police had the mall in lockdown and ...

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clackamas-Town-Center-shots-fired-183076991.html

At least three people were hit, according to American Medical Response, after ten to 15 shots were fired by a person in a hockey mask. One patient was taken to the hospital, AMR said.

A witness reported the suspect had a rifle and it jammed, before he dropped a magazine onto the floor and ran into the Macy's.

The mall exit from Interstate 205 was closed by police. Traffic alerts

Witnesses told KGW’s Abbey Gibb people crying and shaking as they come out of the mall.

[maxsolomon]

11. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

There's a coROllary for our gun-fevered culture i'm sure...

May the victims and their families know peace.

[leapinggnome]

23. Collary?

Do you mean corollary?

[maxsolomon]

26. yep - fixed

[neverforget]

12. I live really close to this mall. The helicopters are out and so are the sirens

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I have not found if shooter has been found

If not, friendly advise, stay away from windows.

[neverforget]

35. The shooter has been "neutralized" according to the Sheriff's office

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Good.

Stay safe, oh and from covering way too many scenes...expect the police presence to be heavy for oh until tomorrow.

[heliarc]

14. War on Christmas! nt

[Mel Content]

15. thankfully, he doesn't seem like much of a shot.

20-60 shots and only 2 hits.

[Chorophyll]

18. I've heard two people are dead. I suppose that's okay with you?

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

49. Two is too many, but it could have been a lot worse

If the guy was trained and knew what he was doing

You could have had 25 people dead.

[Mel Content]

59. why would you suppose that...?

seems to be some twisted minds here.

[aquart]

78. No, but I LOVE that it isn't fifty.

It's a craptastic massacre and I rejoice that "I am the shooter" got so little bang for his buck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. That is only dead, there are wounded too

FYI that is average.

Wonders never cease though.

[Chorophyll]

16. I'm goddamn sick of this.

Every time I start feeling an ounce of hope about this country, we have a mass shooting.

When are the gungeon-dwellers going to show up to tell us everything would have been fine if only there had been MORE GUNS?

[Skittles]

24. get used to it: the gun nuts won

this is the new norm

[AnOhioan]

31. sadly accurate

[tosh]

32. That's the truth. The sad, sad truth.

[Chorophyll]

55. I can't accept that.

Maybe they've won for now.

[hack89]

87. New norm = fewer shootings and less gun violence.

I understand the emotion of the moment but you are mistaken if you think things are worse now. We have reduced deaths due to murder and manslaughter by 50 % in the past 30 years. Next year you will be even safer.

[Skittles]

111. WE??

[aandegoons]

120. Well it could be true if he is a doctor.

Oh wait doctors don't save lives only guns do.

[hack89]

128. We = America as a whole

don't be obtuse.

[Skittles]

246. AMERICA is SICK OF YOU FUCKING GUN NUTS

SICK OF YOU

[hack89]

247. That's nice. Feel better? nt

[Skittles]

248. I know I feel worse than YOU do

DONE WITH YOU

[hack89]

249. I have two school age kids

I seriously doubt it.

[Warren Stupidity]

131. The crime rate tracks the proportion of young adult males in the population. Nt.

[hack89]

140. Which indicates the area to look for root causes and real solutions.

If the problem is violent young men then focus the judicial system on criminal violence. End the war on drugs if you need extra money, resources and manpower. Jobs and economic equality would complement such an effort.

If the problem is mental health then lets work towards single payer health care with mental health care.

Lets not respond with hyperbole that does nothing but inflame emotions.

[Warren Stupidity]

144. The point being that regulating, for example, high capacity magazines

should not be dismissed "because the crime rate is down". The crime rate will go up and down based on the proportion of young adult males in the population. Meanwhile we have an extraordinary level of gun violence in this country, even if the overall rates of crime are on a demographic induced downward trend. Mass shootings are routine, and the shooters seem to prefer high capacity magazines.

Claiming that these incidents are too rare to bother doing anything to prevent them is, at this point, ludicrous. We have these events every few months. They terrorize people. They destroy our social fabric. We regulate full auto weapons and other weapons that we have decided should not be generally available. Regulating the equipment of choice for mass murdering gun nuts does not seem to many of us to be an unreasonable thing to do.

[hack89]

146. Let remember the lessons of Virginia Tech

it was committed with two hand guns with standard mags.

That's why the only honest position if you really want to prevent such incidents is a total ban on handguns. Because to accept civilian ownership of hand guns is to accept the possibility of another VT.

A superficial fixation on technical things like magazine size is just feel-goodism.

[TheCowsCameHome]

137. Oh, thank goodness.

I was concerned that last night was something to be upset about.

[hack89]

141. It is very much is something to be upset about

but it also calls for rational thought as to the cause and solution.

Emotional hyperbole that is demonstratively false may make people feel better but in the end solves no problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. If there were more people armed...

I know it is not funny...but.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

53. Gee, what if half the mall was carrying and a total fire fight broke out

The shooter would have been killed on the spot, but what about the misses and the through and through shots?

How many people would have gotten killed by "friendly" fire?

BTW, my neighbor's bumper sticker says, "Guns Save Lives!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Oh com'on, bullets only kill the bad guys!

I managed to type that without breaking into rank out laughter!

[coalition_unwilling]

188. Everyone who advocates that more people carrying firearms would have

produced a better outcome should watch the Oliver Stone movie "Platoon" and the firefight scene there. Or watch Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket" and the penultimate scene there.

[friendly_iconoclast]

211. Perhaps you can give us a real-world example or 2, instead of Hollywood ones...

TIA

[coalition_unwilling]

218. Well, let's see. Ask any vet who's been in a real live fire-fight, where

people on both sides are shooting at one another (like my Dad's experience in Korea) and you'll hear that it's often a confusing all-around cluster-fuck where no one knows who is shooting at whom.

I use Hollywood examples, b/c they form a part of our common cultural vocabulary. My Dad says the fire-fight scene in Platoon is a pretty close cinematic replica of what a real fire-fight is like.

Do you know any vets who've seen actual combat? If so, run what I wrote by them and see what they say.

[friendly_iconoclast]

224. Surely you can come up with a real-world example. There are +/- 8 million permit holders...

...and a few places that don't require permits. We've been hearing about these postulated "friendly-fire"
incidents damn near every time concealed handgun carry is discussed. Like here, no one can come up
with an actual example of same- but they're sure it'll happen Real Soon Now.

Sounds to me like these assertions are mere Colonism:

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a postgraduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me."

- Terry Pratchett, Jingo

[coalition_unwilling]

237. Here you go, baby-killer:

Multiple people have been killed in a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School on Dickinson Drive.

Police said some of the shooting victims are children but it is not clear if they are among the dead. They were still searching the school at 11 a.m., and police dogs had been brought in.

Sources said a person believed to be a shooter is dead. Earlier reports of a second shooter are unconfirmed.

http://www.courant.com/news/breaking/hc-police-responding-to-incident-in-newtown-20121214,0,3969911.story

[friendly_iconoclast]

238. "baby-killer", eh? I see the witch hunt has begun...

By your logic, somebody that owns a computer is a child-pornographer and/or botnet operator.

Somebody that owns a car and is not a teetotaler is a drunk driver.

[friendly_iconoclast]

239. Oh well, so much for *that* alert:

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:12 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Lighten up, Francis. If you choose today to defend your gun rights, you get what you deserve.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Other than the salutation, the post is okay.....
And I found the post this is responding to even more offensive.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Given the emotion condition of most of us now I offer the poster the opportunity to apologize for their name calling and angry accusations. If we do not figure how to get along without "outing" each other how do we expect the world at large to strive for some sanity.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Over the top!
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I would have left it if they'd said the poster's ideas promoted a culture where babies can be mass murdered. Calling the other member an actual "baby killer" is over the top.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It's a little abusive, then again, you are advocating for a gun culture despite what keeps happening over and over again. Maybe you need this kind of language to wake up.

I guess everyone that objects to mandatory breathalyzer interlocks installed in every
car is advocating for drunk driving culture.

I have another idea- why don't we examine why people do these horrible things, instead
of concentrating on what they do them with?

Do we blame "explosives culture" or "gasoline culture" for these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

[PavePusher]

243. Holy fuck. Vile fucking bigotry against non-criminals certainly seems to be the order of the day.

How very... Republican.

Oh well, that's one for the Ignore button.

[apocalypsehow]

251. DU juries usually get it right. n/t.

[coalition_unwilling]

240. You have the blood of at least 20 children on your hands. I hope you're

happy and satisfied with your ideological purity.

[friendly_iconoclast]

242. Yep, just as you have the broken souls of child porn victims on yours.

Just as you likewise have the ruined finances of identity theft victims on them.
Just as every Muslim has the blood of 9/11 victims on their hands.

You want to exploit tragedy to promulgate the "acceptable" bigotry of collective guilt? Fine.

I'll be happy to make you responsible for what others do with the same
sort of inanimate object you own. Not so fun now, is it?

[apocalypsehow]

250. +1. n/t.

[friendly_iconoclast]

252. Feh. I've been called worse by better...

[Remmah2]

149. Oh the irony.

How many of the people at the mall were gun owners and choose to leave them home? How many people were gun owners that observed the gun free zone request of the mall? Are the anti "stand you ground" personalities pleased that there were less guns at the mall?

[TheCowsCameHome]

50. They're choosing a spokesman as we speak.

Just wait.

[apocalypsehow]

100. Chosen, and dispatched to the scene: see #87. Typical NRA bullshit being spewed

in the middle of a breaking-news tragedy on progressive discussion board. It's simply disgraceful.


Edit: typo.

[friendly_iconoclast]

118. I doubt the NRA runs the FBI, as they are the ones that confirming the declining violent crime rates

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

[apocalypsehow]

121. And Gungeon spokesman #2 washes up onto the scene. n/t.

[friendly_iconoclast]

170. I note you do not dispute the accuracy of that, instead choosing to carp about the messenger.

Some truths are just too inconvenient, eh?

[apocalypsehow]

179. When the "messenger" is peddling a right-wing NRA line on a progressive, Democratic

discussion board, pointing out their arrival on the scene to peddle such bilge is not "carping": it's noticing. Funny how you Gungeoneers can never seem to fight your own fights, but always need a whole lot of company to back you up. Very telling of how weak your case for moar, moar guns!!!11 really is.

In any event, the replier above's posting of some random FBI survey on crime "proves" nothing: one could just as easily argue that higher incarceration rates, better policing tactics, and the like are much more responsible for the decrease in the overall crime rate, and that, in fact, with better gun control laws and policy those rates would be even lower - much lower.

In fact, that's precisely what most reputable statitician and criminologists do argue, and quite persuasively. You need to quit getting your "facts" from American Rifleman magazine and start looking to reputable sources. Pro-tip.

[beevul]

187. What the hell is "right-wing NRA line" about what he posted?

"In any event, the replier above's posting of some random FBI survey on crime "proves" nothing: one could just as easily argue that higher incarceration rates, better policing tactics, and the like are much more responsible for the decrease in the overall crime rate, and that, in fact, with better gun control laws and policy those rates would be even lower - much lower."

(FWIW, I'm not posting this for you, since I know you wont read it, I'm posting it for everyone else that isn't an anti-gun idealogue, so that they can see just what is what for themselves.)

About that "random FBI survey on crime":

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet a need for reliable, uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics. Today, several annual statistical publications, such as the comprehensive Crime in the United States, are produced from data provided by nearly 17,000 law enforcement agencies across the United States.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

Yeah, pretty random.

"Funny how you Gungeoneers can never seem to fight your own fights, but always need a whole lot of company to back you up."

Need? No. Have? Absolutely.

Like it or not, gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right - and forget the "unlimited" or "absolute" argument, since I'm not claiming its absolute or unlimited.


And we who support that right - the "whole lot of company" you speak of - We aren't going away.




Edited to add a "

[apocalypsehow]

189. And the swarm is on! #7 in this thread, late to the scene but making up for it with

the usual irrelevant verbosity.

Funny stuff.

[beevul]

197. Someone has to contrast the antigun ideologues that got here first and almost always do.

Swarm? Are you saying you're outnumbered?

Take comfort, you're far less outnumbered here on DU than just about anywhere else, where the subject of firearms is concerned.

[apocalypsehow]

198. Translation: "someone has to get the NRA's side of the message out there!!!11"

"Take comfort, you're far less outnumbered here on DU than just about anywhere else, where the subject of firearms is concerned."

Oh, I know this, and I do take said comfort: it has been made clear time and time and time again that the vast, vast, VAST majority of DU'ers support the concept of stronger gun laws and tougher firearms possession/handling/storage policy - just like progressives and liberals everywhere.

I feel quite at home among my fellow progressives and members of the Democratic party who are on the right side of history on this issue, which is all of the former and a sizeable majority of the latter. Canadian and Australian-style gun control is coming to the United States of America: it will be here in yours and mine's great-grand children's time, and they will all live in a much safer, saner country for it. You can take that straight to the bank.

[beevul]

204. Does your worldview allow that theres a such thing as a non-nra pro gun position?

Does your worldview allow that theres a such thing as a non-nra pro gun position?

Or is it simply that anyone thats pro-gun-rights is an an nra stooge?

Inquiring minds want to know.



"Canadian and Australian-style gun control is coming to the United States of America: it will be here in yours and mine's great-grand children's time, and they will all live in a much safer, saner country for it. You can take that straight to the bank."

ROFL. Just ROFL. Keep telling yourself that...

Oh, by the way, if by some miracle it does happen...And we are talking about a miracle like...winning the powerball daily for 30 consecutive days...


Will you be leading the confiscation?

Or will you rely on people with...guns...to make that happen?

[apocalypsehow]

206. "is it simply that anyone thats pro-gun-rights is an an nra stooge?" - well said.

[friendly_iconoclast]

209. Doubtful: think Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", or Richard J. Hofstadter's...

...The Paranoid Style in American Politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American_Politics

http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/?single=1

One quote, I think, is telling (emphasis added)

...American politics has often been an arena for angry minds. In recent years, we have seen angry minds at work, mainly among extreme right-wingers, who have now demonstrated, in the Goldwater movement, how much political leverage can be got out of the animosities and passions of a small minority. But, behind this, I believe, there is a style of mind that is far from new, and that is not necessarily right-wing. I call it the paranoid style, simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind.

[apocalypsehow]

215. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=334388

More fun stuff.

[NYC_SKP]

253. "Or will you rely on people with...guns...to make that happen?" Brilliant!

Exactly...

Thanks!

[friendly_iconoclast]

212. Actually, they got their facts from the FBI-anyone can, at their website

By all means, point out any factual inaccuracies (while showing your work, of course)

Remember, "not saying what I want to hear" does not necessarily mean "inaccurate"...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

...The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet a need for reliable, uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics. Today, several annual statistical publications, such as the comprehensive Crime in the United States, are produced from data provided by nearly 17,000 law enforcement agencies across the United States.

Other annual publications, such as Hate Crime Statistics and Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, address specialized facets of crime.

Special studies, reports, and monographs prepared using data mined from the UCR’s large database are published each year as well. In addition to these reports, information about the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS), answers to general UCR questions, and answers to specific UCR questions are available on this site....

...Crime in the United States

Crime in the United States (CIUS) is an annual publication in which the FBI compiles volume and rate of crime offenses for the nation, the states, and individual agencies. This report also includes arrest, clearance, and law enforcement employee data. Use the new online UCR Data Tool to research crime statistics from as far back as 1960.

[llmart]

186. I recently discovered the Ignore feature on DU.

I know I'm a bit behind, but I've found it very useful. I've used it on a few of these gun nutters today

[apocalypsehow]

191. I don't blame you in the least: it's a crying shame we have to put with right-wing NRA talking

and propaganda on a progressive discussion board, especially every time they exploit a tragedy like this to peddle the moar! moar guns now! line.

Good talking with you, friend - see you around DU.

[hack89]

130. FBI facts - nothing to do with the NRA.

my irony meter just exploded - we have gun control advocates waving the bloody shirt and yet it is gun right advocates in the wrong for interjecting real facts to counter factually wrong emotional hyperbole. Funny and pathetic.

[friendly_iconoclast]

172. Facts are derailing the Two Minutes' Hate, and we can't have that...

[apocalypsehow]

176. Disagreeing with you about gun policy is not a "two minutes hate," sport:

three people are dead, another wounded. You show not the slightest concern or inclination to express concern about that - which is very telling of your politics and your ideology, among other things.

Nope: instead you are in this thread railing about "prohibitionists" and peddling the right-wing NRA line on guns. It's disgraceful and disgusting, but I've noted that such posting behavior tends to catch up with our Gungeoneers eventually.

[friendly_iconoclast]

203. You blame the NRA; you bash gun owners that had nothing to do with this horrible case...

...but if someone posts an inconvenient truth it's a "right-wing NRA line". No musings on why
this maniac chose to do what they did. No inquiry about why no one stopped them beforehand.
No examination of the piss-poor system of mental health care in this country.

Instead, we get some pie-in-the-sky program for gun control that looks like it was 90% cribbed
from the Anti-Saloon League, with some 'faith-promoting rumor' as a side dish

Yeah, if I were using tragedy as an excuse to wave the bloody shirt for Prohibition, I wouldn't
be happy with a heckler, either...

And btw, there's one problem with your convenient stereotyping of your opponents as RW plants:

I broke with the NRA for the very wingerness *you* denounced- here at DU, as a matter
of fact. More than once, actually:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=53805

Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:51 PM

Star Member friendly_iconoclast (7,873 posts)
215. And again, pointing out *your* specious claim is not a defense of *them*. A pox on both your houses!


-*The NRA* for becoming (as I said before) a hypocritical right-wing political movement with a bitchin' gun club...

This smells not a whit different from the UK Government's incessant Lovejoying about the need
to read everybody's email and look at what websites they visit- iow, "Controllers gotta control."

[beevul]

207. I wish I could rec your post. N/T

[apocalypsehow]

208. "there's one problem with...your opponents...RW plants" - FIFY. Yep. n/t.

[friendly_iconoclast]

210. There are a couple books you should read- they might strike a chord with you.

They certainly have with me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paranoid_Style_in_American_Politics

http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/?single=1

(note: emphasis added)

...American politics has often been an arena for angry minds. In recent years, we have seen angry minds at work, mainly among extreme right-wingers, who have now demonstrated, in the Goldwater movement, how much political leverage can be got out of the animosities and passions of a small minority. But, behind this, I believe, there is a style of mind that is far from new, and that is not necessarily right-wing. I call it the paranoid style, simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer


Short version: You might not be getting the glorious, gun-free future you envision...

[apocalypsehow]

214. "You might not be getting the glorious, gun-free future you envision" - Sure I am: so is the entire

country. That is the inevitable result of the Blueing of America thanks to changing demographics and an increasingly educated set of young people coming of voting age, and voting anti-GOP/NRA.

"There are a couple books you should read"

Uh-huh. Hofstadter was required reading my freshman year of college, many moons ago. If you had actually read his works - knew what you were talking about, in other words - you wouldn't dream of posting this reply to me with links to even Wikipedia synopses of his works. That you have tells any one who has, like, really read Hofstadter that you haven't. Read him, that is. That you claim you have, and are staking so much of your credibility on it for your purposes here, is simply icing on the cake.

But you haven't and you don't - read him in depth or know what you're talking about regarding his work - so what we get is internet bravado like your reply here.

Pro-tip to "friendly_iconoclast": go check a book of Hofstadter's essays and collected works out of the nearest library to you; read it; and then...well, find another line of argument to pitch on DU about guns from the "RKBA" perspective, I reckon. As anyone who had ever actually read Hofstadter would....

More fun stuff.

Edit: typos.

[friendly_iconoclast]

216. "What a beautiful world it will be; what a glorious time to be free..."

[apocalypsehow]

217. Uh-huh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=334388

[friendly_iconoclast]

225. Interesting; I never knew the validity of an argument depended upon...

...the number of times it was repeated.

You learn something new every day...

[apocalypsehow]

227. Uh-huh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=334388

[apocalypsehow]

98. You'll get many fine explanations, most of them consisting of finely-woven bullshit.

Dog knows I've had my heartaches from challeging that bullshit:

The vast majority of our fellow DU'ers see through it, though, as I've spoken about here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240183211

[DesertFlower]

20. i just heard on the news.

all i can say is WTF. how many is that just this year?

enough.

[triplepoint]

22. Where is Reverend Billy When You Need Him?

Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:07 PM - Edit history (3)

who would jesus shoot...er shop with?
.
.
.
.

.
.

.
.
.

.
.
.
THE SHOPTURE IS UNDERWAY.
By Rev Billy

Children, we are all of us shopping sinners. Each of us is walking around in a swirl of gas & oil, plastics & foil. We are not evil people, but somehow we allowed the Lords of Consumption to organize us into mobs that buy & dispose, suck fructose & pull triggers. Yes, the Rapture of the Final Consumption, the Shopture, is underway. The fundamentalist consumers are lifted up into the air, to the Supermall of Eternal Convenience, where there are thousands of big boxes & chain stores above the clouds. Stadium-sized crowds of the Saved are SHOPTURED UP into a staggering array of discount opportunities. But then some of us hesitate. We hold onto the trees with roots in the ground. We live in sinful, poor towns - Sodom, Pennsylvania and Gomorrah, Michigan - where money dies but local sex thrives, the waste-stream becomes an art form and then a big garden that feeds a generation with Zen Buddhist large intestines, where manufacturing plants have long lunches with baffling performance art, where executives are spanked and then released into years of bird-watching rehab. Yes - We choose to stay down on the ground. We don't want to be the Chosen People. We have AN UNEASY FEELING ABOUT BEING SAVED. We vaguely recall that Heaven kills. We would rather be bad for jobs. We want to turn Wall Street and its cops into ONE BIG WILY COYOTE - running off the cliff but only dying to themselves. Yes we will stay down here, thank you. We will face the Hell-fire of being Human.

Reference Link:
http://www.revbilly.com

[TPaine7]

25. Just heard the shooter has been neutralized from the police spokesman on CNN...

That's great.

I hope the victim count is small.

[RebelOne]

61. Shooter is dead according to news conference. n/t

[Coyotl]

27. Portland Local News: - Suspect 'neutralized' after deadly shooting at Clackamas Town Center

Portland Local News
Suspect 'neutralized' after deadly shooting at Clackamas Town Center
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clackamas-Town-Center-shots-fired-183076991.html

Updated today at 4:52 PM

PORTLAND – At least three people were shot and a suspect was "neuitralized" inside the Clackamas Town Center mall Tuesday, police said. At least one person was killed.

[trouble.smith]

29. Tis the season for psychotic breaks.

for all we know, the shooter lost his job, his home, and his family and finally just snapped. It will interesting to find out what led up to this.

[kurtzapril4]

46. 'Tis the season to mass murder

Fa la la la la
La la la la.

[Chorophyll]

60. The whole year has been the season for psychotic breaks.

Can't blame all the previous mass shootings on Christmas.

[trouble.smith]

81. I wasn't.

[JonLP24]

184. I wouldn't

label any incident or any individual as having a psychotic break or "episode" unless we know the individual was experiencing them. I say this because I did experience one and there is a lot of misunderstandings as to what goes on. The person experiencing one, isn't "psycho", but reacting normally to a world that has gone crazy. Most frightening thing I ever experienced.

[aquart]

30. Multiple wounded.

[riderinthestorm]

65. And two dead...

[jpak]

39. More Gun Fun!

I wonder what kind of cool assault rifle he used.

Maybe someone will post of cool picture of it then tell us how it really wasn't an "assault weapon" so it was OK.

[jillan]

40. Did anyone see Jon Stewart last nite? He asked WHEN is the right time to talk about Gun Control??

[Electric Monk]

51. Yes, that was very well done. Link here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117693

[progressoid]

56. I just saw it this evening.

Sad and poignant.

[neeksgeek]

41. Interesting Article in Mother Jones

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

[riderinthestorm]

63. Gee, a mall full of people and nobody had another gun to shoot-it-out??111!!!!1

Cuz gee, guns are for PROTECTION right? Just cuz ONE guy's a nut doesn't mean anyone else is right??









(cuz ya just know that someone's going to come on here and defend this guy's right to own a gun as though these kinds of mass shootings are so rare... )

[godai]

75. Maybe it's time for mandatory gun ownership.

Wonder what the gun nuts think about that. Brilliant idea, right?

[TheCowsCameHome]

80. Don't they already have that somewhere in Georgia? n/t

[RebelOne]

83. Yes, in Kennesaw. I lived there for about 5 years. All homeowners are required to have a gun.

Because of that gun law, Kennesaw has one of the lowest crime rates in Georgia. I now live in Woodstock which is the neighboring town. Woodstock also has a very low crime rate.

[nolabear]

64. I've had it. I'VE HAD IT. I wish we would enact the strictest gun laws in the WORLD.

It should be so goddamned hard to get a gun that people should have to put their houses up as collateral. There should be psychological testing and periodic retesting and microchipping of gun owners so they don't function if anyone else tries to use them and NO access to automatic or semiautomatic weapons without joining the military or a police force. Anyone caught with an illegal weapon should have to spend years taking care of victims of gun violence.

This is MADNESS. How can ANYONE condone this insanity? You can't shop. You can't go to a movie. You can't sit at your goddamn car at a traffic light! And why? Because it's good that any madman in the country can act out his insanity on every innocent around him, with less impediment than he'd have if he wanted to drive a car or ingest a drug?

I can't believe we have come to this.

[name not needed]

68. You know what would have prevented this? More people shooting wildly into a crowded area.

[primavera]

74. +1,000 - n/t

[godai]

79. That's bound to happen someday. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

70. It's the human cost of living with our laws. The death toll of 'Freedom'.

Or, 'acceptable losses', just as long as it wasn't one your loved ones gunned down in cold blood.

[47of74]

71. When the fuck is our government going to step up to the fucking plate here?

I am so goddamn sick and fucking tired of this horseshit happening every few days. Our government needs to get off its collective ass and start reforming our gun laws now.

[TheCowsCameHome]

77. What? And risk upsetting the NRA and their ilk?

C'mon, we couldn't do that.........

[hack89]

88. They will not interfere as long as gun violence is at historic lows and declining.

secondly, who do you think is busily relaxing gun laws besides "the government"? All these laws did not magically pop into place. They were put there because they have voter support.

[apocalypsehow]

102. That day is coming, trust me, my friend, as the country turns Blue:

What is going to be oh so sweet, and it's looking more & more like it'll happen in my lifetime, is when the House of Representatives goes Blue for good thanks to demographics, and President Obama or his Democratic successor is able to appoint two, three or maybe even more Supreme Court justices. No more obstacles to doing the right, civilized thing about firearms and the carnage their easy availability has upon our communities!

Then we'll get us some meaningful gun control legislation, and the Heller/McDonald decisions overturned to boot. Young, college-educated people aren't buying the NRA's message anymore, and the minority communities which have been devastated by the ravages of firearms violence so some right-wingers can fondle assault rifles and strut around Wal Mart with a pistol perched in their pants don't need to be convinced of the selfishness and hateful indifference of the typical "RKBA" advocate to their situation.

Those days are coming, whether our "law abiding gun owners" like it or not: and when it does, they'll be faced with a choice. They can either register their toys and turn the ones in no civilian has any business possessing - like assault rifles; like semi-automatic handguns; like shotguns capable of chambering more than three rounds; all .50 calibers; etc., etc. - and continue to be "law-abiding gun owners" with the .22's and shotguns and sports pistols our society graciously allows them to continue to own as long as they register them and pass an FBI background check, or they can take the "no one's going to be the boss of me" attitude that is so rampant among the ranks of the armed and angry of the "RKBA" movement. And then we'll just see what happens, about like we did with those restaurant owners who said "no one's gonna be the boss of me!!!" after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, and they didn't want to take down their "Whites Only" signs. I haven't seen one of those signs in a long, long, time - and that's a good thing. As will the day meaningful gun control legislation is passed by a Democratic Congress and signed into law by a Democratic President and then upheld by a liberal-majority Supreme Court that understands the true meaning of the 2nd amendment, not the Scalia-Rambo fantasy that says "a pistol in every pot!"

It's going to be a great day to relish when it arrives, and it's a'coming. The sooner the better.

Cross-posted & edited.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1957331

[Dr_Scholl]

112. Speaking of living in a fantasy world...

[friendly_iconoclast]

117. Go for it, culture warrior! Demonize a large chunk of the voting population!

Then act surprised when they retaliate at the polls...

But before you do that- donate to DU, ya Prohibitionist blowhard.

[apocalypsehow]

124. Except, they haven't: the Democratic Party controls the White House and the Senate.

Were it not for Gerrymandering by NRA-loving Republicans, we'd control the House of Representatives.

But the day is coming when meaningful gun control legislation is coming to the United States of America:

What is going to be oh so sweet, and it's looking more & more like it'll happen in my lifetime, is when the House of Representatives goes Blue for good thanks to demographics, and President Obama or his Democratic successor is able to appoint two, three or maybe even more Supreme Court justices. No more obstacles to doing the right, civilized thing about firearms and the carnage their easy availability has upon our communities!

Then we'll get us some meaningful gun control legislation, and the Heller/McDonald decisions overturned to boot. Young, college-educated people aren't buying the NRA's message anymore, and the minority communities which have been devastated by the ravages of firearms violence so some right-wingers can fondle assault rifles and strut around Wal Mart with a pistol perched in their pants don't need to be convinced of the selfishness and hateful indifference of the typical "RKBA" advocate to their situation.

Those days are coming, whether our "law abiding gun owners" like it or not: and when it does, they'll be faced with a choice. They can either register their toys and turn the ones in no civilian has any business possessing - like assault rifles; like semi-automatic handguns; like shotguns capable of chambering more than three rounds; all .50 calibers; etc., etc. - and continue to be "law-abiding gun owners" with the .22's and shotguns and sports pistols our society graciously allows them to continue to own as long as they register them and pass an FBI background check, or they can take the "no one's going to be the boss of me" attitude that is so rampant among the ranks of the armed and angry of the "RKBA" movement. And then we'll just see what happens, about like we did with those restaurant owners who said "no one's gonna be the boss of me!!!" after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, and they didn't want to take down their "Whites Only" signs. I haven't seen one of those signs in a long, long, time - and that's a good thing. As will the day meaningful gun control legislation is passed by a Democratic Congress and signed into law by a Democratic President and then upheld by a liberal-majority Supreme Court that understands the true meaning of the 2nd amendment, not the Scalia-Rambo fantasy that says "a pistol in every pot!"

It's going to be a great day to relish when it arrives, and it's a'coming. The sooner the better.

Cross-posted & edited.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1957331

You can bank it.

[hack89]

166. And that explains why gun control was so prominent in the campaign ... oh wait.

Last edited Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Obama and Congressional leadership has no stomach for gun control. You will not see them introducing significant gun control legislation.

You seem to be missing the fact that many Democrats support gun rights. Many of those Congressmen from non-urban areas are not going to support gun control. Plain and simple.

Look no further than Harry Reid. Pro-gun rights and endorsed by the NRA. Gun control as you imagine it has no future in the Senate.

As for the Supreme Court, reflect on how Rowe v Wade is still with us despite decades of conservative courts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

173. Keep cutting and pasting your own posts, they're quite convincing...

...to those who already agree with you.

Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=89071

Governor Pat Quinn's "Assault Weapons" Ban Defeated (Illinois)

This in a overwhelmingly DEMOCRATIC state legislature.

[apocalypsehow]

174. Of course they are "quite convincing": the facts have a liberal bias.

Sucks for the NRA side of things, I know. But what are you gonna do?

[apocalypsehow]

175. I note you do not dispute the accuracy of that, instead choosing to carp about the messenger.

Some truths are just too inconvenient, eh?

As someone was saying to me recently...

[beevul]

192. You can not be serious.

"like assault rifles"

Assuming you mean so called "assault weapons", youre talking about the most popular center fire rifles in America.

I'm sure nobody would be upset with that and retaliate at the polls.

"like semi-automatic handguns"

Pretty much every hand gun functions like a semi-automatic, other than a few single shot handguns.

So youre talking about the bulk of all handguns in America.

I'm sure nobody would be upset with that and retaliate at the polls.

"like shotguns capable of chambering more than three rounds"

That would be the bulk of all shotguns in America.

I'm sure nobody would be upset with that and retaliate at the polls.

"all .50 calibers"

Because theyre such a crime problem, right?

I'm sure nobody would be upset with that and retaliate at the polls.


"etc"

So you have more in mind than what you specified, that "no civilian has any business possessing"?

"etc"

And more still?

Color me shocked.

Lets say for just a minute, that by some miracle (and yeah it would take the stars aligning, AND a miracle on top of it for your wish to come true) you get your wish, and laws that cover the firearms you specified were enacted.


How are you going to pay for the cost of reimbursing 50 plus million Americans for what would amount to probably 200 million plus guns?

You didn't really think it would be a situation of just passing a law, confiscating/mandating turn in, without compensation did you?

[primavera]

177. That's what would happen if the US was a developed nation

Since we're a third world, feudal, banana republic filled with neanderthal John Wayne wannabes, that civilized future seems very remote.

[Remmah2]

147. Why limit it to gun laws.

We need to put a check on the general moral decay.

[Liberal_in_LA]

84. is it resolved yet?

[TygrBright]

85. A quick review of the "rules" about when it's okay to discuss gun policy might be in order:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2012/12/11/jon-stewart-when-can-we-talk-about-guns/?hpid=z3

helpfully,
Bright

[ErikJ]

89. "Clackistan" Oregon-Tea bagger heaven.

Its a big mall in the heart of Clackamas OR nicknamed Clackistan. I think they are mostly a red county. Lots of Tea Bagger types here.

[hugo_from_TN]

92. Clackamas County went Obama

[ErikJ]

96. Yes, 3% margin--but neighboring Multnomah County 75% Obama.

[neverforget]

97. I live in Clackamas County, actually really close to this mall. This county is a swing county

and it went blue, but there is a big segment of self described "clackistanis" here who hate everything Portland/Democrat. They are really loud but I don't how much real power they have yet.

[ErikJ]

105. The most conservative part of the Metro area by far.

This is the hot-bed area for the local Tea baggers. Youre right. They hate everything about Portland with a passion. They fought the Clackamas light rail and now the Milwaukee light rail. Luckily they are fading in power in the metro area I think.

[Brigid]

94. I'm no expert on gun-related issues, but I do know this much:

I could do this same thing very easily. With no criminal record and no history of mental illness, I could legally buy a gun with little trouble. I could probably even get a CCW permit. A few sessions at a practice range, and I'm ready to go to a local mall and wreak some havoc. It shouldn't be that easy.

[WinniSkipper]

222. So what do you suggest?

Substitue "voting" in your above scenario and see how you feel about the statement.

[Rocknrule]

99. I thought these things only happened in Colorado and Texas

[Zorro]

103. Stand on Zanzibar

[slackmaster]

123. Yes, a mucker

[doc03]

107. This mass murder kind of kills the NRA meme that an assault

weapon ban and a ban of high capacity magazines wouldn't prevent any crime. If only everyone in the mall had an gun like the NRA wants there may have been a few more killed in the crossfire.

[Dr_Scholl]

113. Not really.

A total of 6 people were shot. Even if the shooter were limited to 10 round magazines, it wouldn't have made any difference.

[Fumesucker]

119. Weren't something like sixty rounds fired though?

That's an estimate I heard.

If the shooter had been limited to only a ten round magazine then perhaps no one at all would have been shot.

[Dr_Scholl]

125. Or he could have just carried more magazines.

He was probably using standard 30 round mags.

Anyway, i'm hearing from the news now that no more than 20 shots were fired.

[Fumesucker]

126. Maybe when everyone is armed all the time these sorts of incidents will taper off

I look forward to that day.

[Sunlei]

213. I read somewhere the gun jammed after 50-60? shots. The shooter ran off into a store.

[doc03]

162. How you figure that? Maybe he was just a bad shot and if he was limited to a 10 round magazine

he wouldn't have hit anyone.

[beevul]

193. Just like cho? N/T

[hack89]

167. The Virginia Tech massacre proves that you are wrong

It was committed with two hand guns with standard mags.

That's why the only honest position if you really want to prevent such incidents is a total ban on handguns. Because to accept civilian ownership of hand guns is to accept the possibility of another VT.

[flvegan]

109. I guess I'll be first. My heart goes out to those involved.

Please forgive my fellow DUers who insist on making politics out of everything. Sometimes, yeah, it just comes down to folks. Guns v no-guns. My apologies.

BTW, when your token vegan makes this point, you're doing it wrong.

[fun n serious]

115. It doesn't matter whether it was Portland or Clackamas.

Kids accused in attempted carjacking and armed robbery

In the attempted carjacking, Ami Garrett, 22, said she was sitting in her truck Saturday when the 11-year-old and a 7-year-old boy approached her in a church parking lot as she waited for her parents, according to Sgt. Pete Simpson with the Portland Police Bureau.


http://www.kgw.com/news/Adult-arrested-in-11-7-year-old-gun-investigation-183031091.html

[Iggy]

122. Hmmm, Unusual

a rampage killer not using a Glock pistol as his murderous weapon of choice.

[Paladin]

129. A Thread On This Incident Has Opened In Gun Control/RKBA.....

....castigating "the stupid media" for daring to refer to the AR-15 which the shooter used as an "assault rifle." Nothing unusual about this---a detailed, NRA-correct description of the firearm used is about as far as our Gun Enthusiasts' interest extends, when yet another of these ugly shootings occurs; no sympathy for the victims or their survivors, and God knows, no workble suggestions for preventing an infinite number of such shootings from happening in the future.....

[PavePusher]

138. A thread started by one of your fellow Prohibitionists.

As for the rest of your post, well, your insinuations are noted.

[Paladin]

143. Like jpak said:

"....sometimes subtlety is too subtle."

I stand by my comments, insinuations included. And by the way, I'm not a gun prohibitionist; I happen to own a few.....

[beevul]

194. The only difference between a "prohibitionist" and a "fudd" is...

The only difference between a "prohibitionist" and a "fudd", is fudds see everyone elses guns other than their own as a problem, instead of all guns.

Of course, I'll just bet you own a "sniper rifle" similar to the one whitman used in texas so many years ago.

Thats "different" though, right?

"no sympathy for the victims or their survivors..."

When you get some time, I'd really like to learn to read minds, as you apparently can.

Perhaps you can take some time and teach us?

[Paladin]

199. Don't Get Me Started About Whitman.

I was in Austin that day, and I had a friend who lost his mother to that sick motherfucker.

The rest of your snotty comments don't warrant any responses.

[beevul]

202. I'll note you characterize my comments as "snotty", not "untrue". N/T

[Paladin]

219. Need Some Help, There?

That's alright, I understand.

Tell you what: Let's learn a new word, shall we? The word is "superfluous." Look it up in your dictionary, OK? (You'll find it somewhere between the words "silencer" and "tactical.&quot Read the definition, then absorb the following sentence:

Beevul, you're a pro-gun activist at Democratic Underground, so my characterizing your comments as untrue would be...superfluous.

Have a nice day.

[Warren Stupidity]

132. Over in the gungeon they are very concerned.

About the technical accuracy of media descriptions of the weapon used.

The stupid media called the gun used in the Oregon Shooting Fest an "assault rifle"

[Remmah2]

134. Does the truth matter?

Or does it matter only some of the time?

If you were in court would you want the absolute truth?

Not a half truth, not omission of the truth, but the absolute total truth?

[Paladin]

135. You And Your Gun Enthusiast Pals Can't Handle The Truth. (nt)

[Remmah2]

148. Intellectual dishonesty at it's best.

Correction, only dishonesty.

[Warren Stupidity]

142. in this case technical accuracy is pretty much beside the point.

tone deaf.

[TheCowsCameHome]

136. Well now, that changes everything, doesn't it?

Note: Be sure to take a bath after your visit to the dark side.

[PavePusher]

139. A thread started by one of your fellow Prohibitionists.

But your insinuation is noted.

[Warren Stupidity]

145. And the greek chorus joined in on cue.

[onehandle]

152. This is the most likely scenario for most Dirty Harry wannabes...

[Hoyt]

154. They're always concerned about nomenclature. Such obfuscation helps protect their access to guns.

Cracks me up when they claim people who don't know difference between a magazine and clip shouldn't express an opinion on their lethal weapons of choice.

I would love to hear their real reasons for being attracted to lethal weapons that fall loosely in the category of "assault" weapon -- the truth, not their sanitized version.

[beevul]

195. You heard it here first folks.

Technical accuracy - proper accurate nomenclature - is "obfuscation".

Someone should let everyone know that whenever theres a medical discussion, or a discussion about the economy.

Oh, wait, I forgot, that only applies when the subject is guns.

[condoleeza]

155. They are now reporting that the gun jammed????

Makes no sense, unless it jammed when he shot himself in the head, or he had another gun that he used on himself.

[Blackhawk44]

156. modern times are not more dangerous...

than old times.

but there are lots more phone-cams.

[bongbong]

159. Guns make you SAFER!

Don't ever forget the lies & filth that the NRA orders their acolytes to fill political discussion boards with.

[Remmah2]

161. Clearly a hollow point.

nt

[bongbong]

165. Yes!

> a hollow point.

AKA, the heads of Delicate Flowers.

[hack89]

168. "orders"? You truly are paranoid. LOL

do we all have secret decoder rings like "Christmas Story"?

[bongbong]

182. Not paranoid

Just an observation based upon the sameness of the responses that the Delicate Flowers post on DU, as if orchestrated by the same conductor (AKA the NRA)

[hack89]

183. I love a good CT

DU is not the same since the Truthers were shut down.

[bongbong]

185. LOL

All it takes is reading the identical-as-fuck responses from the Delicate Flowers. No CT needed, just simple reading skills.

Oh, and not being TERRIFIED of walking in public without a weapon. Cowards who need guns die a thousand deaths....

[hack89]

190. You realize only a tiny fraction of gun owners carry in public?

I like you. You have a high entertainment factor. Keep up the good work - the NRA needs people like you.

[bongbong]

228. LOL

Your endless "bending" of the truth is entertainment supremo. I keep busy debunking your evidence-free rants - the ones where you try to make your gun-love and obsession seem normal.

[hack89]

230. So what percentage of gun owners carry in public?

lets see some of your facts.

[bongbong]

231. HO HO HO

You made the claim, in post 190: "You realize only a tiny fraction of gun owners carry in public?"

Where is your evidence for that claim?

I realize that an active imagination is the main thing that Delicate Flowers rely on for their "facts", but try harder!

[hack89]

232. You dismissed it - I thought you actual had some evidence

silly me.

It does go to show how safe gun owners are if there are tens of million of people carrying every day and gun deaths continue to decline.

[bongbong]

233. Gun nuts

Always asking for 'proof' but somehow never capable of presenting it for their cherished lies, oops, I mean beliefs.

[hack89]

234. Gun grabbers

smilies instead of thought.

I hope the NRA is paying you well - you are damned good at what you do. Us gun nuts appreciate your effort for our cause.

[bongbong]

235. Keep it up!

All of DU is learning how the gungeon is filled with NRA lackeys whose only "tactic" is to scream "prove it!" to anything anybody says, or just parrot NRA Talking Points (AKA Big Lies).

What a sad existence the Delicate Flowers have. Too scared to leave the house without a gun!

[hack89]

236. I think it funny that proof is not needed to support gun control

given all the emotional hyperbole and ignorance of the law we see.

When they can't even admit that gun violence is at historic lows and steadily declining (regardless of the reasons) then one is faced with the realization that fear of guns is their only motivation.

I never carry in public anymore - I live in a safe area. My guns are for target shooting - I don't even see a need for home defense so they are always in a locked safe.

I am not motivated by fear. You on the other hand.

How do plan to live out your days in a society where gun control is a smoking ruin, gun rights are expanded constantly, and yet gun violence continues to decline? At what point will you recognize the caricature you have become?

[bongbong]

241. Still batting .00000

I love how Delicate Flowers always whine about "prove it!" but never think their claims need any support.

You're another one of the apologists for massacres like the one in CT today. That's all the proof I need that Delicate Flowers are deranged.

[beevul]

196. Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

You should see what happens when you start asking people what color the sky is.

You get all these "identical-as-fuck responses" that its blue.

Quite the conspiracy.

It must be the NSA - the National Sky Association - issuing orders their acolytes.

You've got bigger fish to fry now.

[bongbong]

229. LOL

I believe "everybody says the sky is blue so our gun-posts that are all identical are NOT NRA Talking Points" is another NRA Talking Point.

Keep on keeping on, Delicate Flowers!

[LanternWaste]

169. I can only imagine that in their last moments of life, the victims were comforted

I can only imagine that in their last moments of life, the victims were comforted and received succor because "gun violence is at historic lows and declining..."

[Wernothelpless]

171. Updated: 1:45 PM Oregon mall shooter identified; used stolen rifle

Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, had armed himself with an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle and had several fully loaded magazines when he arrived at a Portland mall on Tuesday.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Police-Ore-mall-shooter-identified-used-stolen-rifle-.html

[Trunk Monkey]

200. Apparently you haven't hear the latest update

Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, had armed himself with a STOLEN AR-15 semiautomatic rifle and had several fully loaded magazines when he arrived at a Portland mall on Tuesday.

there , fixed it for you

this wasn't some responsible gun owner that "snapped" it was a fuck criminal who was gonna kill some folks no matter what

[Wernothelpless]

220. Actually I noticed it was a stolen rifle ...

I also noticed that the local sheriff's office had a picture of him on file so I'm guessing he had a history in the area? ...

In Idaho people can buy a gun on any corner and they're readily advertised in local papers for sale all the time so I didn't see the need to make the comparison on how he obtained the weapon ... he's a madman who killed innocent people and many are suffering needlessly because of his actions ...

But, I'm sure you feel better about yourself "correcting" ... for whatever childish reason ... sigh ...

[Agnosticsherbet]

178. More martyrs on the second amendment alter.

Bow down and worship the gun.
Carry God concealed on your waist.
Only being armed armed and ready to kill 24/7 can keep you safe.

[Remmah2]

180. Thank god he didn't have a bow and arrow.

nt

[Agnosticsherbet]

181. No, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, and Robin Hood are the patron saints of the arrow.

I'll invoke their faith when one of them goes Rambo on a mall full of shoppers.

[condoleeza]

201. Not a proud week for us Portlanders - what can we do?

There is a survivor whose family has already had a near tragedy this year and maybe we can help them, I haven't done any Christmas shopping yet and not inclined to go to a mall at this point.http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/clackamas_town_center_shooting_30.html

Quoting from the Oregonian tonight:

"The family set up a Facebook page for updates and support. They asked that anyone who wishes to contribute to Kristina Shevchenko's medical expenses send a text message to 28594 and type in the word "support" in the message. A prompt pops up, asking for a donation amount."

[friendly_iconoclast]

205. I don't text- any other way of contributing?

I would like to help.

[condoleeza]

223. Yes, here is a link to her Facebook Support page

https://www.facebook.com/ClackamasShooting

and a link the the donation site:

https://www.wepay.com/donations/kristina-shevchenko

[underoath]

221. did he just pull the trigger and close his eyes?