Venezuela's Chavez says cancer has returned
Source: CBC
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has announced that his cancer has returned and that he will undergo another surgery in Cuba.
Chavez, who won re-election on Oct. 7, also said for the first time that if his health were to worsen, his successor would be Vice-President Nicolas Maduro.
"We should guarantee the advance of the Bolivarian Revolution," Chavez said on television Saturday night, seated at the presidential palace with Maduro and other aides.
The president said that tests had shown a return of some cancerous cells and that he would return to Cuba on Sunday for the surgery, his third operation to remove cancerous tissue in about a year and a half.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/08/venezuela-hugo-chavez-cancer.html
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And best wishes for your country as well.
Ernesto
(5,077 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)who jerk off to your demise. I'm sorry, was I lude?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)They're the one's rooting for a return to crushing poverty and misery just to support the some of the worst parasites on earth.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)but support my servitude and poverty. They have no standing in any conversation nor debate... they are amoral sociopaths.
Thank you brother. If I travel to NV, I hope to hang out with you.
Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Just let me know...
Peace. Now.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)allrevvedup
(408 posts)Very sad news.
Zorro
(15,749 posts)if he actually discussed his successor.
SamKnause
(13,110 posts)This truly saddens me.
Sending positive thoughts your way President Chavez.
Viva Chavez
Viva Venezuela
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)NOT to use the situation to try to manipulate the state of affairs in Venezuela.
The people of Venezuela have re-elected Chavez three times now...and in the last election, the opposition only made it closer by embracing elements of Chavez' program. Our country's government has NO RIGHT to try to force a post-Chavez Venezuela back to the brutality of "market values"-the market has never brought anything but misery to that country, and to the rest of Latin America as well.
Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)The U.S. always had a moral obligation not to harm others, and to allow their democracies a chance to live, but that has never seemed to slow down their covert and not so covert manipuation and destruction of the people's will in the Americas.
Hope the Bolivarian revolution has had enough time to grow strong. That is exactly what the people want, and everyone knows it. Democracy, not exploitive, heartless servitude to the racist US-supported oligarchs again.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)middle class when their leader dies.
Mr.Turnip
(645 posts)I have no strong opinions one way or the other on Chavez but I knew something like this was coming, he'll probably get through this one but it'll be back again and it will kill him, he should of stepped aside for someone else from his party.
Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)It would give you credibility if you took some time to do your research as soon as you can.
Learn about what has happened in Venezuela in the last several decades before you start trying to devaluate people who DO know about it, have worked to learn, and are Democrats to start with.
mecherosegarden
(745 posts)And my family is still there. Maybe you have some facts, but I am the one helping my family with medication, money, and other things when one of them had to go to the hospital for medical treatment while Mr. Chavez travels to Cuba to receive medical treatment. I am the one who has suffered when a relative , and a friend were put in the trunk of a car by kidnappers , or when a friend was shot when riding a bus to see his daughter. You will find different opinions : Those who support Mr. Chavez, those who don't. Insulting those , like myself, who don't believe on him or on what he has done, doesn't help to change the opinions.
Zorro
(15,749 posts)She reflexively scolds any new poster who appears critical of Chavez.
One day she might actually go to Venezuela and see how things really are.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They aren't rich and they aren't pampered, privileged types, either. They did run like hell in fear of their lives from the present regime in VZ, and they describe situations similar to yours. They are frantic with worry about the situation those they left behind find themselves in, and they try to help out as best they can.
There is a small group here who remain deliberately ignorant of the full picture in VZ, for reasons unclear to me. Perhaps they like the fiction of a Utopian society, when in reality it's a hellhole where everyone gets a free cellphone...?
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Things like transparent elections and social indicators can be, however.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I can look them in the eye across the dinner table, I can hear them talking to family back home. The "social indicators" I hear about are scarcity, scarcity and more scarcity. It doesn't sound like paradise in the slightest.
But hey, whatever. The place is going to change soon--for better or worse.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)the elite business class of Venezuela, who own everything worth owning in Venezuela, including the means to distribute goods and services. There's no doubt in my mind, they have deliberately manufactured the shortages for political gain. Even so, I think the working class and poor of Venezuela -- the majority of the population -- are far better off now, than before Chavez was elected.
"Paradise"? Why would you want to deliberately mis-characterize someone's position on this issue, like that? I don't get that. It makes me want to be "mean" , sometimes, when people do that.
The current government is a result of the will of the Venezuelan people, expressed through highly monitored, verifiable elections. That's something I can always get behind.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)resources, and opportunities for the "have-nots." The hardships in Cuba are a direct result of American policy dictated by the Cuban criminal oligarchy that fled to the US where their bought and paid for Congress co-harts passed laws and to give special privileges to them at American taxpayer expense. The cabal still exists in FL with extensions to every gaming industry in this country and round the world.
MADem
(135,425 posts)For someone who has taken control of every other business in the place, rewritten the Constitution, taken control of all branches of government, poor Hugo is a "victim" of the "elite business class?" I don't think that's the case, frankly.
I thought his usual modus was to "nationalize" any business that didn't jump high enough, fast enough to suit him...
What my friends, exiled outside of San Juan, tell me, is that the place is no paradise, that their family left behind are struggling. Why are you suggesting to me that my dear friends are untruthful or mischaracterizing their view of their own country? I trust them to tell me how they perceive the situation in their own homeland. This IS what they said to me. I don't think they have any reason to lie, either.
I think the people of VZ deserve better--I just don't think Hugo's the guy to deliver it to them. He keeps them in a state of perpetual poverty; their lives don't get better, really--it's just a slightly better class of misery. His agrarian schemes aren't cutting it, and the entire situation there is just terribly...tenuous. But he makes their poverty a bit more genteel, so they tug their forelocks and are grateful, but it's not a good situation.
It won't matter soon enough, anyway. Hugo's terminally ill. He won't be able to give them nominal pay rises or extra minutes on their free cell phones for much longer. I also don't know if his replacement will a) be any better, or b) survive for very long without the Hugoesque charisma and charm.
Time will tell.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:51 AM - Edit history (1)
President Chavez did not rewrite the constitution. It was written by an assembly that was created through elections, and then it was ratified by a referendum.
Your characterizations of the situation in Venezuela are pure nonsense. Here is more reliable information:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/7313
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf?phpMyAdmin=330ac50250f0at3851ad76r2963
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2012-09.pdf
MADem
(135,425 posts)...Critics of Chavez believe that he is autocratic and tyrannical. After his 1998 election Chavez helped rewrite the constitution and extended the length of his presidency. He also created a law that gave him supra-congressional authority the ability to pass a law without congressional approval in certain circumstances.
Using the power of the presidency, Chavez gave many jobs in the oil industry to his friends, regardless of their experience. He has also threatened to close down the privately owned press when reporters wrote stories critical of his actions and policies.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Your earlier post said Chavez rewrote the constitution, implying that a constitutional assembly and the electorate played no role, and that the President imposed it through some sort of diktat. The fact of the matter is, the new constitution was extensively publicized (it was even printed on grocery packaging), discussed, and debated over, for many months, before finally being approved by the electorate; the epitome of democracy. I don't see a problem.
The supra-congressional authority was for a limited period of time, and as your article notes, it applied only under "certain circumstances", primarily on matters related to fiscal policy, if I remember correctly.
None of this makes President Chavez a dictator.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You have the sequence backwards, too. The electorate votes first--BEFORE the rewrite. And the assembly? Those were his guys--it was a rubber stamp. He got what HE wanted.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-04-26/news/9904260040_1_venezuela-constitutional-assembly-supreme-court
Those dictatorial changes Chavez made are permanent (well, for the time being, anyway). They didn't come with an expiration date.
As I said, though, time will tell. If he is indeed terminal with an aggressive sarcoma, there will be a new election, and none of his cronies have the ability to both bully and bullshit as well as Hugo can. It'll be an interesting election to watch.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)The first referendum in April of 1999, decided whether or not to establish an assembly. The second, held in December, approved the constitution.
The members of the constitutional assembly immediately began with their work. However, it was quickly realized that plenary sessions were too time consuming and so, because Chávez wanted the assembly to complete its work within six months, it met primarily in 22 commissions. Also, a debate broke out between the opposition and the assemblys majority on whether or not the assembly had the right to take over normal legislative functions. Chávez and his supporters argued that since the assembly was the highest legislative representative of the sovereign, of the people, the assembly should take precedence over the legislature. With help from the judiciary, Chávez view won out. By December the document was ready and on the 15th it was submitted to a national vote. 71.8% of the voters approved the new constitution, with an abstention rate of 55.6%.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/70
Rewriting the constitution was perfectly legal, and ratifying it through a referendum, was democracy in action. It is the most detailed and comprehensive in the entire world. No other, addresses the issue of human rights with such attention. You should read it.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/constitution
MADem
(135,425 posts)They weren't voting to change the team colors or for a national holiday--they were voting to allow the initiation of the process. That vote was more enthusiastic than the one you brought up.
The quote that you provided doesn't help your case, but it does back up what I've been noting --particularly the part you put in bold.
Just over 55% of the voting population abstained from ratifying the new constitution, and of those who voted, 30% rejected it. That's 'democracy in action?' I don't think so.
This illustrative paragraph is from your first link, too:
Corruption hasn't improved in the most recent look by these folks, either--they're now 9th from the bottom, instead of tenth:
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)If your claim is that ordinary, working class Venezuelans, were better off before President Chavez was elected, then you simply refuse to acknowledge the facts and figures that show conclusively that you are wrong.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf?phpMyAdmin=330ac50250f0at3851ad76r2963
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2012-09.pdf
As for the corruption, I doubt it is any worse now, than before Chavez was elected. Perhaps it is something that is inherent to the political culture of Venezuela. Surely Hugo Chavez is not personally responsible for all of the corruption in Venezuela. To blame him for it, seems like you're grasping.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I also think you don't have a full picture of how bad it is there. I'm the first to admit that I don't know everything and have much more to learn, perhaps you'd be well served to take the same approach instead of characterizing me as "grasping" and "denying" simply because I don't agree with your perceptions, and instead I take counsel from my family friends from that country who have personally experienced the crime and insecurity, and who remain concerned about the fate of their loved ones in that precarious environment.
I invite you to look at the video Josh has provided. The corruption is on steroids these days. Seven hundred million diverted by a single con job isn't chickenfeed. It should be investigated.
VZ's economy is oil based. Chavez took over in 99, when gas was selling for a buck a gallon. That price has just about quadrupled over the years. Of course the nation has revenues, and even the most corrupt dictator would have to be a raging dingbat-moron to not be able to do something with the earnings that the industry provides. But the amount of corruption and skim is on the rise, which is why VZ is ranked as one of the most corrupt nations in the world, and the amount of crime--which in normal societies goes DOWN when extreme poverty is lessened, is going up. And not just "a bit." By leaps and bounds. Shortages continue to abound. The police and the military are not the "friends" of the people.
That's not "paradise." The place is fucked up.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)I said the new constitution was "extensively publicized, discussed and debated over for many months, before finally being approved by the electorate", to which you replied, "The electorate votes first--BEFORE the rewrite."
The constitution was ratified by a referendum after it was written. You are clearly wrong.
It's hard to make sense of your post, frankly. It doesn't make any specific accusations against President Chavez. It simply attempts to draw vague, negative associations with words like "skim" and "corruption" and "dictator".
MADem
(135,425 posts)And 55% of the electorate refused to "approve" or even VOTE ON the thing at all (the final vote on the matter), while of the minority who voted on it after it was written, 30% rejected it.
It's simple, basic arithmetic. That's not a resounding vote of approval--not by any stretch. Most of the nation did NOT approve of the changes, no matter how you try to spin the result.
I'm not "accusing" (loaded word) Chavez of anything. I am opining that he's a poor and autocratic leader who has over the past decade plus, fostered an environment where corruption and crime have run rampant. I've backed up the opinion with data. So yes, a leader IS responsible for the management of his country--that's not a "vague, negative association" -- that's how leadership works. Or in the case of Chavez, doesn't work.
If you can't "make sense" of my post, the problem, I fear, is yours. I'm speaking English and not using big words.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)was cast after it was written, contrary to the false claim, made in your earlier post.
It doesn't matter that there were abstentions by the electorate. The democratic process has to continue, regardless. Regularly, around half of the US population does not vote for a president, and even fewer numbers vote for legislators. Does that render our process illegitimate?
Your claim that Chavez is a poor leader, is not supported by the facts. His successes are particularly impressive, when one considers his virulent opposition, even succumbing to a short-lived coup d'etat.
- From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than one-third. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12-fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access.
- There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999-2000 to 2007-2008.
- The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains.
- Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.
- Over the decade, the governments total public debt has fallen from 30.7 to 14.3 percent of GDP. The foreign public debt has fallen even more, from 25.6 to 9.8 percent of GDP.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf?phpMyAdmin=330ac50250f0at3851ad76r2963
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2012-09.pdf
"fostered an environment where corruption and crime have run rampant".
I don't believe you can support that. You'll need to show that crime and corruption are worse now, than before Chavez was elected. I'm highly skeptical.
MADem
(135,425 posts)But again, since you mentioned that last vote once more, the one that happened AFTER the document was written, the overwhelming majority of the electorate did not approve it.
You can't get away from that fact, no matter how much you continue to make this conversation about me (which is not an appropriate strategy for discussion).
You continue to avoid the issues of violence soaring out of control, and the fact that a blind moron with oil reserve money could "improve" things like public debt or housing or any number of things...even while siphoning away a fortune in public funds to pay for his reelection campaign and bribes. And corruption? It's a free-for-all in VZ. You know this. You ignore it.
If you would look at the references I provided, right there in POSTS 72 and 73, you would see the evidence you say I "need" to provide. I provided it. TWO DAYS AGO. And one of the quotes, with regard to corruption statistics, came from a source YOU put forward--not me. I would hope you'd read your own links. Nonetheless, I provided the most recent data from that same source--and it showed that the problem had worsened, not improved. Here is that link YET AGAIN--since you apparently missed it the first time. http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/
You must read the information provided, because when you do, your "skepticism"would be immediately abated. You would learn, if you read it, that "With some 19,336 murders last year, Venezuela has become one of the western hemisphere's most violent countries ..." and that the country suffered "an average of 53 murders per day in 2011."
If you need to read up on this topic (and apparently you do, based on your commentary here), and the links I have ALREADY PROVIDED are not sufficient, here are some more edifying links--I urge you to read them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/citing-crime-norway-close-venezuela-embassy-17887818
Norway's embassy in Caracas has been operating for almost 45 years.
In polls, Venezuelans consistently rate violent crime as their top concern.
The government of President Hugo Chavez estimates that more than 14,000 people were killed in Venezuela last year. That gave the country a homicide rate of 50 per 100,000 people and made it one of the most violent countries in Latin America and the world.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/11/in-venezuela-crime-spree-_n_957345.html
The government puts the murder rate at 48 per 100,000 people, up from 19 per 100,000 in 1998, the year Hugo Chavez was elected president. In polls, Venezuelans consistently rate criminal violence as their biggest concern, but they tend to blame societal and bureaucratic failures, and so far it doesn't seem to be affecting Chavez's support ahead of next year's presidential election campaign.
Still, the International Crisis Group, an independent Brussels-based organization focused on conflict prevention, says crime and violence are out of control and can "seriously threaten Venezuela's medium- and long-term stability."
In a report issued last month it says the main reason is that the public doesn't trust authorities to enforce the law. Chavez's government "seems unable but in part also unwilling to safeguard military and law enforcement institutions against criminal influences and corruption, fight organized and common crime and protect the population."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16349118
The group did not give an overall reason for the rising violence, but said the problem was fuelled by impunity, with the great majority of killings going unpunished.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela
http://www.ibtimes.com/corruption-venezuela-threatens-human-rights-hrw-report-723769
For years, President Chavez and his followers have been building a system in which the government has free rein to threaten and punish Venezuelans who interfere with their political agenda, said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at HRW, who noted that the human rights situation is worse now than it was four years ago.
Today that system is firmly entrenched, and the risks for judges, journalists, and rights defenders are greater than they've ever been under Chavez.
The president's power lies in all Venezuelan institutions, the report claims, and HRW has little hope that its report, which provides concrete examples of corruption within the courts, media and military, will change Chavez's policies. The last time HRW issued a damning report on the country, the government allegedly detained and then expelled group representatives by force.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/120612-636089-venezuela-ranks-tops-in-corruption-in-hemisphere.htm
Meanwhile, a U.K. nongovernment organization, Tax Justice Network, reported that about $400 billion in Venezuelan capital has fled to offshore banks...
Venezuelan oil expert Gustavo Coronel points out that some 1,500 government-linked bankers and government elites have managed to take at least $95 billion of the windfall, while the government has squandered billions more on arms purchases, "free" oil to Cuba, imports of food and now refined oil, and waste associated with newly nationalized state-owned industries.
The lesson here is that large amounts of cash don't create wealth in the hands of strongmen; they create only corruption.Venezuela's descent to rock bottom on TI's rankings is evidence of this massive downward spiral.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/13/world/americas/hugo-chavezs-movement-threatened-by-his-health.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
...Mr. Chávezs own record is mixed. After doing little to address a deep housing shortage, he has given away tens of thousands of homes, but the rush to build meant that many were plagued by construction flaws or other problems. He has used price controls to make food affordable for the poor, but that has contributed to shortages in basic goods. He created a popular program of neighborhood clinics often staffed by Cuban doctors, but hospitals frequently lack basic equipment.
There is no doubt that living conditions have improved for the poor under Mr. Chávez, and that is the greatest source of his popularity. But the improvements came at a time when high oil prices were pouring money into the country and fueling economic growth, which some analysts say would have led to similar improvements under many leaders, even some with more market-friendly policies...
If Mr. Chávez does indeed leave office, whoever replaces him will face a series of economic challenges. Most economists predict growth will slow next year, and some foresee a recession, after a year marked by a huge jump in government spending aimed at getting Mr. Chávez re-elected. An eventual devaluation of the currency, the bolívar, seems likely, and many also expect a rise in the already high inflation rate. The oil industry, the most important sector of the economy and a crucial source of government revenue, is stagnant and needs vast investment to increase production levels.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/7605474/Former-allies-of-Hugo-Chavez-blow-the-whistle-on-corrupt-dynasty.html
He is now the Chávez family's most outspoken foe. "They turned out to be the most corrupt ever. They betrayed us," he told the Guardian.
Mr Azuaje claims that in Barinas farms, businesses, banks and government contracts have been taken over by the president's parents and five brothers.
The Chavez dynasty certainly has a tight hold over the region. Mr Chávez's father ruled as governor of Barinas, a showcase of the revolution, for a decade until handing over to the president's brother, Adán, in an election marred by fraud allegations.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)They just reiterate the fact that Venezuela, and indeed all of Latin America, has a high crime rate, which isn't in dispute. Venezuela's murder rate isn't even the highest in the region. A couple of your items mention corruption, but only as far as leveling the vague, unsubstantiated allegations, mostly coming from a disgruntled former associate.
I made it through a fraction of the investors.com article, then closed it in disgust, as it was nothing more than a strident diatribe. You shouldn't waste my time with that sort of crap.
All in all, the information you've posted on this thread is rather thin fare, requiring very little effort, and offering no insight whatsoever.
[center]Problems with Transparency International corruption perception index[/center]
Transparency International published its annual corruption perception index (CPI) this week. As this map shows, Ireland ranks very favourably in comparative terms. Since 1995 Ireland has more or less ranked in the top twenty least corrupt countries in the world.
The CPI has been credited widely with putting the issue of corruption on the global policy agenda and raising international awareness about the phenomenon. Nonetheless, the CPI has been the focus of much criticism regarding its methodology (Arndt and Oman 2006; Galtung 2006).
[center]*******[/center]
When the CPI and the Global Corruption Barometer are compared with one another, it is obvious that perception and experience of corruption are not the same things. Studies have shown that the distance between opinions and experiences varies haphazardly from country to country (Abramo 2008, p. 6). Table 1 in the World Bank Report illustrates this point by showing the scores on perceived corruption (CPI column) and experienced corruption (Global Corruption Barometer column) for Turkey and the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is rated number 11 in the 2006 perception-based CPI, and Turkey is rated number 60.
Apparently, there is a huge gap in the perception of corruption in the two countries, with Turkey being perceived as significantly more corrupt than the United Kingdom. However, when it comes to the experience-based questions on the Global Corruption Barometer, there is little reason to distinguish between the two countries. In both states, 98 percent of the respondents stated that they had not paid any bribe in the past 12 months. In terms of corruption actually experienced, Turkey and the United Kingdom appear to have equally low levels of corruption. The incompatibility of corruption perception with the experience of corruption points to the shortcomings of the perception methodology used.
http://politicalreform.ie/2010/10/27/problems-with-transparency-international-corruption-perception-index/
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2009-02.pdf?phpMyAdmin=330ac50250f0at3851ad76r2963
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela-2012-09.pdf
MADem
(135,425 posts)willfully determined to avoid.
And Ireland, FWIW, is NOT Venezuela. Not by a long shot.
Further, CEPR (whose website security certificate is invalid and presents a DANGER warning--you can be sure I'll be running my anti-virus twice tonight ) is a partisan site, it reminds me of the same "rosy scenario" offerings that the Shah of Iran's government presented in the mid-seventies.
The place is corrupt and crime laden. No amount of spin can make that disappear.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)and each one says virtually the same thing as the one preceding it: Venezuela has a high crime rate. You could have posted one of them, and it would have said no less than all of them combined. But that wouldn't be as visually impressive as posting half a dozen or so links, lol.
The article I posted wasn't about Ireland (obviously, you didn't read it), is was about the problems with Transparency International's methodology for ranking corruption. It discusses the flaws of perception based rankings and their very large margins of error. Another problem I have with corruption rankings, is how Western political institutions define corruption, and how they rank its importance in terms of the harm it causes. For instance, I wonder how Transparency International treats the invasion of Iraq or the collapse of the mortgage industry, events that resulted from some serious corruption, and that were FAR more damaging to human society than anything the Venezuelan government might be guilty of. I'll bet I could guess.
I'm still waiting for some specific allegations against President Chavez.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You were suggesting otherwise, and I provided you with documentation.
Now you're complaining about the documentation.
If a leader is not responsible for his nation, who is responsible? It's not like he's been in the job a week--he's had fourteen years to get his shit together. And what has gotten worse? CRIME. And CORRUPTION.
Ever hear the expression "Lead, follow, or get out of the way?" Time for Saint Hugo to get out of the way. He's incapable of leadership. He's wasting the country's resources with frivolous and willy-nilly bribery-spending, he's allowed crime to skyrocket, and his cronies are responsible for the bulk of the corruption in the nation.
The proof you seek is in the pudding that is VZ. Which flavor would you like? Crime? Or Corruption?
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)when it is the result of Venezuela's verifiable elections, which, sadly, we do not have in our own country.
My flavor is the will of the majority with a side of lower infant mortality rate, topped with a dollop of poverty reduction, and garnished by higher levels of literacy. Delicioso!
MADem
(135,425 posts)He will not survive this inflated six year term. VZ will be in serious difficulty in the coming year anyway, given all the "people's" cash he poured into "his" campaign.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)All of Latin America has been in serious difficulty for a long time, though, as a result of US policy doctrines, like the Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary, that enshrine racist/imperialist attitudes as the framework for US foreign policy in that region. The resulting inequality is what creates the need for charismatic leaders, like Chavez.
MADem
(135,425 posts)There comes a point in time when the Captain has to be master of his ship and he can't blame "that guy over there" for what ails him. What happens in VZ now is ON HIM. It's not the "evil USA" that is engendering corruption and crime in that country--it's the policies set by the Dear Leader, the cronyism, the "no rule but my rule," and the freedom that his pals feel to just take what they want because they know there will be no consequences so long as they're on Hugo's team. That "racist/imperialist" line is passe. Hugo owns the mess HE, all by himself, made.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)The Boligarchs are protected by the Venezuelan government in exchange for political and material support. Just look at Venevision owned by the billionaire Gustavo Cisneros who was actually responsible for the 2002 coup.
Want free money? Sell your failing corporation to the Venezuelan government. Pow, you just cashed out as the company was going under and the Venezuelan tax payers have to take the brunt of it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The friends can sell their failing business, and the enemies with a good business might have theirs taken from them. It's an unsustainable model over the long haul.
Chavez's personal touch and charisma aren't things that can be passed on to the next guy. I don't know what the future will bring for those poor folks, but it will be interesting to watch.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)saw nothing but extreme poverty and economic decline. Almost immediately after the election of Hugo Chavez, the decline was reversed. In 2004, after the government gained control of the oil industry, Venezuela experienced one of the fastest examples of economic growth in history, coinciding with dramatic reductions in the infant mortality rate and extreme poverty. Over all, during the last ten years, the Venezuelan economy has grown faster than most. The people there, are far better off now.
Your shrill, bombastic, hand-waving characterizations are pure nonsense.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The poverty is still overwhelming--it's just a bit more genteel, with free cell phones and nominal pay rises. It hasn't been "reversed." Shortages of basic, essential goods are still a real problem.
I haven't called you any names and I don't intend to start now. Odd that you have a need to call me "shrill, bombastic, and hand waving" when I say something you don't like.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)If you claim to not see impressive growth and dramatic improvement in the lives of the working class and poor of Venezuela since Hugo Chavez was elected, then you are simply incapable of looking at this issue objectively. It's just that simple.
Odd indeed.
MADem
(135,425 posts)When you can't buy foodstuffs because the shelves in the markets are empty, that's not 'impressive growth"--it's dysfunction. When Columbia and Mexico are "peaceful" compared to VZ, that's a real problem, and one that is getting worse.
I would certainly call those figures "impressive" and "dramatic," but not in the way you intend.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/10/2012101817912697153.html
"Several men came onto the bus with guns," said the expert, a professor at a major Caracas university, who did not want his name used for fear of violent reprisal. "They took everyone's money. It wasn't rich people riding on the bus - it was poor people trying to get home from work," he told Al Jazeera.
With an average of 53 murders per day in 2011, according to the Venezuelan Observatory on Violence, a watch-dog group, the country has a murder rate of about 67 per 100,000 inhabitants. Neighbouring Colombia, in contrast, has a murder rate of 38 per 100,000 while Mexico - where some regions are gripped by deadly drug violence - has a rate of about 15 per 100,000.
...Between 1999 and 2011, the Bolivarian Republic experienced more than 144,294 murders, according to Paz Activa, a security organisation, and the murder rate has increased more than three-fold since Chavez took office.
Also, the only way Chavez can get a handle on historic problems with inflation (which impacts earning power to no small degree) is through price controls, which then create scarcities. You can't eat the oil money given to you by the state, or that free cellphone:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/world/americas/venezuela-faces-shortages-in-grocery-staples.html?pagewanted=all
The shortages affect both the poor and the well-off, in surprising ways. A supermarket in the upscale La Castellana neighborhood recently had plenty of chicken and cheese even quail eggs but not a single roll of toilet paper. Only a few bags of coffee remained on a bottom shelf.
Asked where a shopper could get milk on a day when that, too, was out of stock, a manager said with sarcasm, At Chávezs house.
At the heart of the debate is President Hugo Chávezs socialist-inspired government, which imposes strict price controls that are intended to make a range of foods and other goods more affordable for the poor. They are often the very products that are the hardest to find.
It's an unsustainable model. It's not "dramatic improvement"--it's a willy-nilly series of appeasement and crowd-riling tactics by Chavez, economic tinkering that is more about denying enemies power and accruing it for himself, and the only long term strategizing seemed more concerned with his own political viability, not a downstream vision for the nation. If that were the case, there'd be no concern about who would succeed him. The fact that there is suggests that his leadership is more "Cult of Personality" than anything else.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I mean, if you look at the resources that both countries had at their disposal, Venezuela was not the best outcome.
Note the 4th Q, that's where the rise of the Boligarchs happened (and if you look at the 5th Q the richest of the rich were fine):
And, this is all with a massive boon in commodity trade (oil for Venezuela, it hit over $100 a barrel):
PDF: http://www.cgdev.org/files/1425092_file_Birdsall_Lustig_McLeod_FINAL.pdf
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)It wasn't just confined to the "socialist" or "populist" states. In fact, the social democracies were more effective at doing it without creating a boligarchical class of people who steal money from the people.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Because that's what they want. Chavez calls out the Boligarchs, but it's all a show, there's nothing being done about them, at all.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That was a new one to me!
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)They're in denial. Cronyism goes deep.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Response to mecherosegarden (Reply #21)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)ronnie624
(5,764 posts)the right of the majority of Venezuelans to determine their own political/economic destiny, without interference from self-serving foreign powers. The fans regularly cite the transparent election system, as well as the dramatic improvements under Chavez, evidenced by social indicators, like the reduction in the infant mortality rate and extreme poverty, and the availability of health care services and literacy programs.
Your subject line seems to indicate that you do have strong opinion on this issue.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)fans of freedom.
randomtagger
(125 posts)What happened to "liberal" politics? He isn't bad for a dictator, but his status as a hero here is ridiculous.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)but I don't wish anyone cancer or death.
randomtagger
(125 posts)it's kind of hard for me to tell if Chavez is a good guy or a bad guy. He is a dictator that resists democracy, yet he cares about his people and their well-being to at least some degree.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)You're just parroting what you've heard from right wing sources. Don't you have the slightest bit of embarrassment or shame? He's not a dictator, and I wish you and the rest of the fucking intellectually lazy morons who keep repeating that meme would shut up.
Find out what you're talking about before you start flapping your gums, okay? You don't want to seem really stupid, do you?
Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)Hugo Chavez says he needs cancer surgery again, names VP successor if illness worsens
IAN JAMES Associated Press
3:27 a.m. EST, December 9, 2012
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is heading back to Cuba on Sunday for more surgery for cancer, announcing on television that the illness has returned after two previous operations, chemotherapy and radiation treatment.
Chavez acknowledged the seriousness of his situation in an address Saturday night, saying for the first time that if he suffers complications Vice President Nicolas Maduro should take his place as Venezuela's leader and continue his socialist movement.
"There are risks. Who can deny it?" Chavez said, seated at the presidential palace beside Maduro and other aides.
"In any circumstance, we should guarantee the advance of the Bolivarian Revolution," Chavez said.
More:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/nationworld/sns-ap-lt-venezuela-chavez-20121208,0,987704.story
jwirr
(39,215 posts)likely going to happen.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Chavez was naming a political successor, that is, one that will go and run in the PSUV party, he clearly does not think he has 4 years left in him.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Because he has this massive, massive, just overwhelming cult of personality around him, by saying who he would like to be the political head, he is giving said person a good boost.
Of course, unlike the opposition unity party in Venezuela, it is unlikely the PSUV will have a primary election so that the people who voted for the party last time can actually choose their candidate. But that's par for the course.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think what he's doing is saying "back this guy."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/09/hugo-chavez-cancer-political-weapon
"The party leaders are not clear among themselves about whom deserves to be the successor If he withdraws, no one knows how this inevitable tension will be solved."
Until now, Chávez and his aides have stifled discussion about what might happen if the president died. That was largely because this has been an election year and the ruling party did not want voters to think they might ultimately be casting ballots for a second-in-command. But by naming a successor, Chávez has raised the possibility that he might not last another 30 days until his scheduled inauguration on 10 January, in which case another presidential election would have to be called.
"It is my firm opinion, my complete and irrevocable opinion, that under this scenario, you should all vote for Nicolás," he said in Saturday's televised address."
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)The people should be organizing right now to advance their own interests and ensure that the US does not intervene to destabalize their country. Thanks to Hugo, a lot of poor people were kept warm in the cold regions of the US when our own government could not or would not help them. Our own government seems not to be able to fight our corporations but other governments can.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Maduro is an enigma of sorts he rose through the ranks through loyalty and helping secure a political future for Chavez. If you want more Aban Pearls, Maduro might just be your man.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not too promising...
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Some people set up a shell company that took $700 million from the Venezuelan people. Less than a dozen people were in on it. No accountability. The Venezuelan government didn't even investigate.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Get well, Hugo!
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)The health care trains always run on time there.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)But really the blind defense of a man on this board who has both claimed to support and by his continued presence as leader of Venezuela done otherwise is kind of silly. He's not anti-capitalism so long as the ones doing the "capitalizing" are the government.
polly7
(20,582 posts)He's fought very hard and I hope, is successful this time too. Winning the election ensured the continuation of programs and policies that have made him beloved to so many Venezuelans for at least a while longer. Whatever happens ...... he's changed the lives of millions for the better ... and I admire him very, very much.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I had a friend who died of cancer--they can only knock it back so long, especially if it's all through the lymph nodes.
It's a balancing act to try to keep the cancer at bay with chemo and radiation, like a lion tamer with a chair and a whip and no way out of the cage. Eventually, that lion is going to have dinner.
Since he has named his successor, I'd say he's been given a timeline, and it might be shorter than he's telling anyone:
Nicolas Maduro, who began his political career as a union leader for bus drivers, is currently minister of foreign affairs, and is the first person to have been named a successor in the 18 months since Chávez has been fighting cancer.
"If something were to happen that would make it impossible for me to be president, Nicolas Maduro should assume power for the short time left in this term. But also, it is my firm opinion, my complete and irrevocable opinion, that under this scenario, you should all vote for Nicolas", he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/09/hugo-chavez-cancer-returned-venezuela
struggle4progress
(118,332 posts)The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, has for the first time designated a successor, after admitting he needs to undergo another operation for cancer and may be unable to return to power.
Chávez is to return to Havana to undergo surgery for a fourth time and said in a broadcast late on Saturday night that he wished his vice-president, Nicolás Maduro, to be his successor.
The announcement comes two months after the charismatic leader, who had declared himself free of cancer in July, was re-elected for a fourth term in October by a comfortable margin.
"There are risks. Who can deny it?" said Chávez, seated at the presidential palace alongside Maduro. "In any circumstance, we should guarantee the advance of the Bolivarian revolution" ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/09/hugo-chavez-names-successor-cancer-surgery
muriel_volestrangler
(101,355 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)are due to decades of political and economic oppression and wage slavery. Violence against workers unions, peasant farmers, student groups, you name it, it's in their history. Just like Obama, Chavez inherited a mess that will take longer than his legacy to fix.
Chavez might not be perfect but in the wake of the disastrous Perez presidency, he looks like a saint. His opponent in the last election wanted to take land from farmers and give it to English royalty. Of course Chavez won in a landslide. If the opposition wants to beat whoever ends up leading his party, they need to come up with a whole different platform, and present a whole different candidate. Not just run the best looking guy from the wealthy establishment, which is ironically what our conservatives did too.
And just like conservatives here, they probably don't think they need to change anything. The parallels between our two countries are comical.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)Before More Cancer Surgery, Chávez Had Some Political Fences to Mend at Home
[font size=1]Isaac Urrutia/Reuters
Followers of President Hugo Chávez showed steadfast support on Sunday in central Caracas.
By WILLIAM NEUMAN
Published: December 9, 2012 [/font]
LA PAZ, Bolivia President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela has flown repeatedly to Cuba this year for cancer treatments, but the flight that took him back to Caracas on Friday may have been the most meaningful of all.
Mr. Chávez postponed emergency cancer surgery to return home, meet with his inner circle and announce on television on Saturday, for the first time, that he had picked the man he wanted to lead his socialist revolution when he is gone something he seemed to suggest might come sooner than his millions of followers would hope.
He was scheduled to fly to Cuba again on Sunday night to prepare for surgery.
Mr. Chávez could well recover and remain a potent force, but on Saturday night he seemed intent on smoothing over factions within his party and solidifying support for the man he chose to succeed him, Vice President Nicolás Maduro.
Mr. Chávez, 58, spoke the word unity several times during Saturdays somber, symbolically weighted appearance. To his left sat Mr. Maduro, and behind both of them viewers could see a bust of Mr. Chávezs hero, the South American independence leader Simón Bolívar (who never realized his dream of unifying a fractious continent).
More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/world/americas/chavez-put-party-unity-before-another-cancer-surgery.html
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)I used to be one of the DU'ers that suporeted him. Until I met my fiance. She's a Venezuelan American, extremely liberal, pro-Obama, and she hates Chavez, as quite a few Venezuelans do, I'm learning. She opened my eyes, to what's really going on there, and it ain't no liberal paradise.
Chavez is a con man. I will never speak positively of him again.
Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)for what was a MASSIVE poor population in Venezuela, people who have among them so many adults and older people who learned to read for the first time in their lives after the missions were created to bring literacy to the entire population rather than only those born among the much smaller elite sector of Venezuelan society.
Democrats have ALWAYS supported public education for ALL people, as well as access to medical treatment, fair work standards, etc., etc., etc.
As Democrats know, there are a lot of right-wingers posing as Democrats who butt in only to try to devaluate, mock, smear, and malign those leaders and strong, moral people who absolutely believe life must be somehow decent for all, not only the greedy assholes who run right over everyone in their road, and fight to keep others away from any chance of a peaceful life.
Do you, by any chance, know where one might see one of your former moments of "speaking positively of him"?
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)Obama is the leader of the Democrats, not Chavez.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)But I did. And I don't care enough about your post to bother combing through posts I made years ago. Have a nice day.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)"I live in Venezuela" is getting kind of tired.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I hate it when people suporete me! Ouch!
("I used to be one of the DU'ers that suporeted him."
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)And learned much of what we're supposed to dislike about him is Western propaganda.
I wish him well.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)You do realize, if Chavez dies, we will be in there in 5 minutes to pick his successor.