Israel settlement bid a 'fatal blow' to peace: Ban
Source: AFP
UNITED NATIONS — UN leader Ban Ki-moon warned Sunday that if Israel implemented its latest plan for new settlements it would deal an "almost fatal blow" to any prospects for peace with the Palestinians.
--snip--
"It was with grave concern and disappointment that the secretary general learned of Israel's announcement of 3,000 new settlement units in east Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank," a statement from Ban's spokesman said.
"This would include reported planning in the so-called E1 envelope, which risks completely cutting off east Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank," the statement said.
"Settlements are illegal under international law and, should the E1 settlement be constructed, it would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution."
Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jBe7qy6pBheonWBU-8dgk0EEFaJw?docId=CNG.b19c92489e1389e5dafe467dd258b00e.441
This has been going downhill fast since yesterday when Israel announced their new construction "plan", but it's kind of surprising to hear Ban Ki-moon speak this openly about how bad the situation is.
The mask is gone, the land grab is on. I can only imagine how this new construction is going to play out in the next six months or what's going to happen to the human beings who inconvenience Israel with their residency.
PB
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
craigmatic
(4,510 posts)1970's. Their politics are completely right wing and their politicians are more ready to fight than negotiate. This settlement plan will benefit their conservatives because it gives them more land and more wars which will keep them winning elections.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...we would see an entirely different picture than we do, today.
Unfortunately, a Labor win, or any kind of win for Leftist elements in Israel is exceedingly slim.
Exceeding slim.
PB
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)
Walk away
(9,494 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)stated they will no longer buy goods from the Settlers. Why they ever did is a mystery, probably because we told them to. But now that everyone knows that while Governments were claiming they opposed the settlements, they were at the same time buying millions of dollars worth of goods from, while buy only a fraction from the Palestinians.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)The abused child has grown up to become the abuser.
KimonoGirl
(89 posts)
Response to Poll_Blind (Original post)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)Just like America, the more liberal factions of Israel want peace and an end to the bloodshed, but the right-wing extremists that are currently in power there only have a desire to methodically exterminate their opposition. Holding those boots to the throats of the Palestinian people will only further the resentment and encite the retributions.
I feel the same way towards the people of Israel as I do towards the people of our country........I support the liberals and the progressives, while I loathe the extremists and the conservatives. Bebe should be held in the same prison as The Village Idiot and his National Dick. They are war criminals and tyrants of the first class. Bebe and The Village Idiot each killed more innocent foreigners than Sadaam ever did. At least the Iraqi people had the decency to do the right thing with Sadaam..........Americans and Israelis don't have the gumption.
Great Caesars Ghost
(532 posts)go west young man
(4,856 posts)I'm so tired of many of the Dems who support Israel at any cost. The emperor has no clothes at this point. America needs to cut off aid to this aggressive right wing state. They are the biggest danger in the ME at this point as they are over reactionary religious fundamentalists with a serious arsenal.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)Could NOT agree MORE! GREAT book - Mornings in Jenin - by a Palestinian woman.
Mosby
(16,358 posts)And the authors decriptions of the 48 war and the village of ein hod are filled with innacuracies.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)It is mainly the religious nuts in these settlements. I remember hearing an interview of one of these settlers a while back during the Intifada a few years back and she insisted that the West bank was THEIR land, given to them by GAWD.
These are the nuts who murdered Yitzak Rabin. They control the Israeli state, now.
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)you do realize that, don't you?
Mosby
(16,358 posts)And more than 1/2 million Iranians.
Your rabid antizionism is starting to affect your reasoning ability, just saying.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)if his regime had been receiving more U.S. aid than any other country in the world, and if he had occupied Iran and begun building illegal Iraqi settlements there.
atreides1
(16,093 posts)Does anyone really believe that these plans were not already in the works...and all that Israel was waiting for was a bullshit excuse to just go ahead with what they had already planned to do?
Israel under Netanyahu never wanted peace or a two state solution!
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...making moves over a much shorter span of time, now, than it originally intended. But the play is the same. The rapidity with which it is carried out is the only thing that differs, IMO.
A two-state solution was merely a ruse, a stalling tactic for Netanyahu to slowly take over land, especially in Jerusalem. Without that excuse to befuddle and obfuscate (though, honestly, very few are fooled, worldwide) there is nothing left but a naked land grab.
The move in the UN also puts pressure on the United States: Without the same cover the Israelis had, the United States is forced to either keep it's mouth shut or risk, whenever opening it, being repudiated prima facie as open liars, even by our allies.
Recall, the strongest support we could get from NATO member states, other than Canada, was merely abstention.
PB
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Apartheid in a single state? More suffering? More death? More generations of hate?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)Gideon Levy was forced to apologize.
'Shonky poll serves to demonise Israelis as pro-apartheid'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113420157
'About the apartheid poll and responsible journalism'
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/setting-the-record-straight-about-the-apartheid-poll-and-ethical-journalism/
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They oppose anything resembling a Palestinian state.
Thy also oppose giving Palestinians who live under Israeli rule and occupation the right to vote in Israeli elections.
They favor apartheid, but want to be able to call the Palestinians independent in the same way the US declared Indian tribes independent so as to be able to sleep at night.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I think you don`t know too much about Israelis if you believe that shit.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Likud, whose goal is and has always been Greater Israel, will coast to victory next year. Israel is not even a center right country--it's a hard right country. It's a nation that thinks like Dick Cheney.
Mosby
(16,358 posts)So your argument is complete bullshit.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Likud: 27 seats
Yisrael Beiteinu: 15 seats
Shas: 11 seats
UTJ: 5 seats
National Union: 4 seats
Jewish Home: 3 seats
Total: 65 seats out of 120.
And the 2013 elections are only going to push the country further to the right. As will each successive election as the ultra-orthodox--via immigration and an astronomical birth rate--constiute an increasing share of the electorate.
The Israel of Ben Gurion is dead. Liberal Zionism is dead. The state of Israel is now the Israel of Bibi and Lieberman and Ovadia Yosef.
P.S. Kadima is the party of Ariel Sharon and the second invasion of Lebanon. That Kadima constitutes the 'left' in Israel is almost as sad as the fact that Likud represents the center.
Mosby
(16,358 posts)(Livni) Kadima 758,032 22.47%
(Netanyahu) Likud 729,054 21.61%
Ps - the Democratic party murders whole families with missles and assassinates leaders in other countries, so I guess the american left is dead, or should be right? No one is shooting rockets into the US like in Israel, so they can't suggest that they are defending us from attack. Our current admin is guilty of war crimes, collective punishment and genocide, the Democratic party has clearly lost its way and should be destroyed. /sarc.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)That makes Israel a rightwing country.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason, according to a recent survey by the Geocartography Institute.
The survey, which was conducted for the Center Against Racism, also found that over 75 percent of participants did not approve of apartment buildings being shared between Arabs and Jews. Sixty percent of participants said they would not allow an Arab to visit their home.
Five hundred Jewish men and women participated in the poll, which was published Tuesday.
According to the survey, racism against Arabs in Israel has seen a sharp rise since a similar survey was conducted two years ago.
In 2006, 247 racist acts against Arabs were reported, as opposed to 225 one year prior.
About 40 percent of participants agreed that “Arabs should have their right to vote for Knesset revoked”. The number was 55 percent lower in the previous survey. Also, over half of the participants agreed that Israel should encourage its Arab citizens to immigrate from the country.
Over half of the participants said they would not want to work under the direct management of an Arab, and 55 percent said “Arabs and Jews should be separated at entertainment sites”.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)in the occupied territories every time they go to the polls.
Israel will remain an Apartheid state until they allow the occupied Palestinians the right to vote in Israel's elections. The Palestinians in the occupied territories are citizens of Israel. The "two-state solution" is dead. Israel killed it.
King_David
(14,851 posts)You posted a bogus poll , which when revealed ,you resort to untrue statements .
Not cool.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It changes little:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-wouldn-t-give-palestinians-vote-if-west-bank-was-annexed.premium-1.471644
Here's their correction – sort of:
CLARIFICATION: The original headline for this piece, 'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll. The question to which most respondents answered in the negative did not relate to the current situation, but to a hypothetical situation in the future: 'If Israel annexes territories in Judea and Samaria, should 2.5 million Palestinians be given the right to vote for the Knesset?'
Since Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) are already part of Israel and already have been annexed, Israelis support an Apartheid state as Israel's currently configured.
One could criticize the polling methods and claim that the survey wasn't scientific. The results as presented aren't good.
As I just wrote: Israelis show their approval of Israel's Apartheid government every time they go to the polls.
King_David
(14,851 posts)For that bogus poll .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)imply and oh thanks again for reminder
King_David
(14,851 posts)Mmh ?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it was something else did you not read it?
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)I know that's been pointed out to you before down in the I/P group, so it's really not cool to come up to LBN and try again as though you didn't already know what yr saying is resorting to untrue statements.
Az has posted what Gideon Levy said in this thread, and reading it, I can understand why you didn't, seeing as how it doesn't match up with what you claimed.
Also, that first link of yrs to an OP you posted in the I/P group? The Australian is a RW newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch and editorially controlled by him. Not only that, but the author of the OP you posted is the founder of a website called 'The Jewish Thinker'. It has some pretty nasty stuff on it about Arabs, and on its front page currently is this article:
Tighten your safety belts, Israel! We’re in for another four years of Obama
Americans apparently overlooked four years of economic waste, and a failed foreign policy of sucking up to the Muslim world, by re-electing their president. What now?
Israeli people in the know predict that Obama will shortly reveal an agreement with Iran that will position Tehran stopping their uranium enrichment program in return for easing of sanctions. Incredibly, Obama will launch it as a success story while Israel will present it as a fair story. Obama will want to put Iran out of reach for the world so as to enable him to continue his Socialist experiment for America and to progress his global vision of leveling the playing field for a better world, which implies weakening America further, economically and militarily, to come more into line with less fortunate nations. As almost immediate proof of this, expect to see swinging defense cuts, including sizeable unemployment, in the early part of 2013. In fact, we will be hearing of unemployment soaring over the 8% mark again as early as February 2013 in America. Their national debt will grow accordingly.
All this will embolden a growing Islamic world that will be stupefied to see America give their leader another mandate to continue his apology policy towards them. A new Obama Administration, pleading with the Muslim world “to be nice, please, because we don’t hate you,” is not going to cut it in this violent and crazy neck of the woods. They consider him weak and will view America in decline.
http://www.jewishthinker.org/article/58/tighten-your-safety-belts-israel-we’re-in-for-another-four-years-of-obama
Charming. RW shit like the Australian and RW shills like the writer you posted a link to might pass muster in the I/P group, but not so much up in LBN...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Mmmhh ?
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)I know this was posted in an IP thread you participated in, and Az has also posted it in this thread. This is what Gideon Levy said:
'The Dialog poll commissioned by the Yisraela Goldblum Fund, whose results were published in Haaretz last week, unearthed extremely serious and disturbing findings. It sketched a troubling portrait of a nationalistic and racist Israeli society. This isn't the first survey to demonstrate such a trend and, unfortunately, it won't be the last. The Hebrew headline of the news article describing the survey results ("Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel" ) was misleading. Most Israelis do support apartheid, but only if the occupied territories are annexed; and most Israelis oppose such annexation. Haaretz explained this in a clarification published in the Hebrew edition on Sunday.
The article itself, which I wrote, did not contain any mistakes. It provided a precise and detailed description of the survey results. In my analysis of the survey, which appeared as a separate article, there was a single sentence that did not accurately represent the poll results and contradicted what I had written in the news piece a short time beforehand. My sin was to write: "The majority doesn't want Arabs to vote for the Knesset, Arab neighbors at home or Arab students at school."
The truth, as I wrote in the news piece, is different: "Just" 33 percent of the respondents said they don't want Arabs to vote in parliamentary elections, "just" 42 percent wouldn't want an Arab neighbor, and about the same proportion said it would bother them if there were an Arab student in their child's class. Not a majority - just a (large ) portion of Israelis espouse these frightening views. Cold comfort.'
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)In my analysis of the survey, which appeared as a separate article, there was a single sentence that did not accurately represent the poll results and contradicted what I had written in the news piece a short time beforehand. My sin was to write: "The majority doesn't want Arabs to vote for the Knesset, Arab neighbors at home or Arab students at school."
What he was clarifying there was that the poll question referred to the way poll respondents thought Palestinian Arabs should be treated in the West Bank if Israel were to annex it(most respondents in same poll OPPOSED annexing the West Bank)-NOT how respondents felt Arabs living in Israel proper should be treated.
He wasn't saying the entire poll was bogus.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)on the thread you linked to done because the poster thought more than the first paragraph was hidden behind a pay wall but here is the rest of Gideon Levey's 'retraction'
The article itself, which I wrote, did not contain any mistakes. It provided a precise and detailed description of the survey results. In my analysis of the survey, which appeared as a separate article, there was a single sentence that did not accurately represent the poll results and contradicted what I had written in the news piece a short time beforehand. My sin was to write: "The majority doesn't want Arabs to vote for the Knesset, Arab neighbors at home or Arab students at school."
The truth, as I wrote in the news piece, is different: "Just" 33 percent of the respondents said they don't want Arabs to vote in parliamentary elections, "just" 42 percent wouldn't want an Arab neighbor, and about the same proportion said it would bother them if there were an Arab student in their child's class. Not a majority - just a (large ) portion of Israelis espouse these frightening views. Cold comfort.
Imagine a similar survey in France: A third of the French don't want Jews to be eligible to vote and nearly half don't want a Jewish neighbor or a Jewish student in their child's class. The right-wing propagandists who are currently causing a ruckus about my mistake would be among the first to shout "anti-Semitism." But for us, the Jews, it's allowed.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852
thanks for reminding me I had all but forgotten about that
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Slow genocide of their cousins.
Vile. It sickens me that my tax dollars support this.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The Israelis are really bad at 'genocide' if that is the case.
Does this look like genocide?
Between 1950 and 1967, Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza remained about 1 million. Since 1967, during the supposed Israeli "genocide," population quadrupled to an estimated 4.1 million in 2010. Between 1990 and 2010, at the height of the Israeli "genocide," population doubled. Under Israeli rule, Palestinian infant mortality rates fell from about 60/1000 to 18/1000, thanks to improved prenatal and infant care.
Palestinian population quadrupled under the Israeli rule!!
http://zionism-israel.com/Israel_Genocide_Flyer.htm
(Sick ) Hyperbole much?
virgogal
(10,178 posts)Paulie
(8,462 posts)If not land then how about housing?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Paulie
(8,462 posts)But growing the powder keg will allow for blaming the weaker party when it goes off. Then the usual excuses will happen like they MADE us drive bulldozers over them. They are yellow how could the not see them?
None of this ends well. For anyone. Sigh.
Stewland
(163 posts)Zionism is a belief system that is much like fascism the world over. How long will the Zionist hold sway over our government? Lets hope that progressives in Israel vote these terrorists out.
former9thward
(32,082 posts)Take your anti-Semitic crap elsewhere.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Fascism, no. Really more like slow, methodical genocide.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Definition of ANTI-SEMITISM
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-semitism
Here is an excellent post by one of our DU members Behind the Aegis (Host of the Jewish group ):
'The next time someone is droning on foolishly about "Arabs are Semites, too" as a way to imply anti-Semitism is anything other than discrimination/hatred against Jews, simply ask them if they are pedophiles, after all, "pedo" means "child" and "-phile" means "lover of." Therefore, using their 'logic' if they love children, they are pedophiles. Don't want to be that aggressive? Then try; "would you smoke or light a match near a sign that said something is "inflammable?" Again, using their "love for the real meaning of the word," the prefix "in-" means "not" and "flammable" means "combustible." Therefore, "inflammable" means "not combustible."
The constant droning on about the origin of the word is nothing more than people being dishonest or disingenuous, and often, usually deflecting from "Jew hatred" (where the term originated).'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=23310
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)Hatred is hatred. And there is an unbelievable amount of hatred toward these Semites, the Arabs.
byeya
(2,842 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)No way.
I am a Proud Zionist .
Zionists have absolutely NOTHING to apologize for.
Proud national movement of the Jews and vast vast majority of us are Zionists.
'Zionism:
The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.
Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right, religious and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained.
The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum. '
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html
And the Democratic Party of the USA , which DU supports are proudly supportive of Israel and Zionism.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel."
You see, that's the problem. That's ancient bible mythology. It's not "their" homeland. It was, and is, the Palestinians' homeland. Ones religion doesn't give anybody the right to take over somebody else's homeland. That's fundie, crazy talk.
Dealing with reality as it is now, the only solution is to give all people currently living in historic Palestine equal rights. Nothing else is thinkable.
King_David
(14,851 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)You're making a religious claim to somebody else's land. On a liberal site, it's certainly not debatable that you are wrong.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Would clearly not accept antiZionists into their fold .
I am an avid Democrat member and supporter.
This is DU
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)That's politics. It doesn't support your position.
King_David
(14,851 posts)There is no "argument " with the irrational .
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)This is all about an ancient myth for you.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I am an atheist Jew.
Your posts here are amply clear to all that can read .
And they not pretty !
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)The bible is mythology. According to bible mythology, Jews stole the land from someone else. Jews were one of many groups that have lived in what is now Palestine. Jews have no special claim to the land. The Palestinians have lived there for many hundreds of years.
I'm an atheist, and I can't relate to your thinking. You think that some fabricated history from thousands of years ago gives Jews the right to treat the Palestinians so badly – that's just incredible.
King_David
(14,851 posts)By your reply I feel lke I wasted so much time thinking anyone would take your post seriously .
LOL ... Bye Bye
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)"The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel."
I understood what you wrote.
King_David
(14,851 posts)You need more education on Jews and Zionists because it's clear you do not understand us at all.
PM me I will be happy to suggest some reading material.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)I am so tired of the "Bible says it's so" crowd. That land was Palestine before 1948. What has happened to the Palestinians is not unlike the Native American holocaust in North America; and what the Israelis and their government are doing to the Palestinians is not unlike the Jewish holocaust on Europe!
Israel is a bully nation.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Personally I think the world is tired of the old anti-semitic ruse when it comes to pointing out fault with people who are zionists. At DU we criticize Christians quite a lot too. Does that makes us all racists against the christian faith?
1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)In that post. Apparently some people have thin skin when certain words are used. All words should be judged in the context of how they were used rather than just as code words that encite pent-up passions to explode. I am not trying to dissuade you from your love for the people of Israel, just to ask you to consider the intent of a statement based upon context rather than just words. We are all on the same side here (or at least of the same political views), and no poster should be attacked without undeniable justification. Peace to everyone.
former9thward
(32,082 posts)So no we are not "all on the same side here".
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But, liberal Zionism is dead. The choice is now between a binational state with the end of Zionism, or an apartheid Greater Israel with Arabs denied the right to self-determination.
There is no third option.
Zionism and democracy are inexorably opposed now.
1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)flip a coin, call them all the others.........not any real significant differnces. Our country today is far more Fascist than democratic, yet you don't see me getting my undies all bunched up just because it is what it is. I stand by my position that the post that you attacked was in no way anti-simitic.
billh58
(6,635 posts)the Likud neoconservative anti-Palestinian land grabbing policy have to do with Jewish anti-Semitism? The last anyone heard, Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy.
It is very easy to throw the anti-Semitic accusation around when you have no other way to defend the Israeli government's far right militarism isn't it? And, yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but it does not have a right to use political or ethnic conflict as an excuse to steal land from the Palestinians.
There could have been two states a long time ago if the ruling Likud neoconservatives (Bibi and pals) had curtailed the settlements in Palestine. But then that would have reduced the "need" for the very lucrative USA military aid program wouldn't it?
former9thward
(32,082 posts)They just said Zionism (a Jewish state) equals fascism. Idiocy.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)former9thward
(32,082 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)That's a really shitty, scurrilous tactic.
Stewland
(163 posts)Zionism ,a set of ideas formulated in late 18th century,in which the European Jewery were the chosen people above the native Shephardic and Palestinian. It employs militarism as its mechanism in order to achieve its goal. Fascism is also a set of belief that like Zionism sets groups apart and against one another. In fact all Fascist ideas use hatred of the other in order to rouse the sentiments of its adherents. The means justify the ends is the common rule. Oppression of despised minorities allows genocide and theft of life and liberty to done in the name of the cause. Nazi andZionist ideas are strikingly similar. The need to expand territory and cleanse the area of undesirables are strikingly similar. Nazis visited terror,genocide and prejudice upon Jews just like Zionists vist these same horrors upon Palestinians.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Zionism:
The national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Has come to include the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel.
Zionism avocated, from inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left and right, religious and secular - joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained.
The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html
1ProudAtheist
(346 posts)But............how does this apply to areas outside of the borders of the Israeli state? Speaking as one who advocates peace at all levels, I find it most difficult to support a government, any government, that makes choices to kill others and take away their homes and their land, in order to expand their borders. And don't try telling me about security, as a nation with the military might of Israel can never be threatened by the people of the Palestinian communities who'se main arsenal consists of bottles and rocks. I submit to you that extremism is just that extremism, no matter the nation or the people.
As for the state of Israel, I respect their right to exist, and their right to defend themselves...........against real enemies. I do believe that most of the dispute in that area of the world comes from the theft of homes, land, territory, and wealth, from the sovereign state of Palestine after the end of WWII. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between, the Palestinians have a legitimate gripe about the theft of their land, and the most extreme of them, will fight to the death in an effort to recover it. Seeing only 1 side of that argument will definitely lead a person to form strong opinions, and there have been ongoing attempts to resolve this issue for more than 50 years. Let us all hope that someday soon both sides will sit down in ernest, accept each other as neighbors, and learn that living together in peace is far better than living apart in war.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)1. Giving land in Palestine to European - global - Jews makes as much sense as giving my house and land back to the Indians. In fact it probably makes MORE sense to give MY stuff back to the Indians, as they were there "only" about 150 years ago.
2. Why wouldn't the Palestinians resent the loss of control-ownership of their homes and land?
3. The aggressive posture of the Israeli government has cost it the support of folks like me, who once were almost TOTALLY sympathetic to the "cause" of Israel. BECAUSE of this aggressive posture I started to educate myself about the history of the Palestinians, and that education taught me that the Palestinians HAVE been unjustly forced off of their land.
4. I don't believe any god gave anything to anyone.
Ms. Bigmack
King_David
(14,851 posts)Ever been to Israel ?
Most Israeli Jews are secular atheists.
God ???
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)Because many who hold power in the Israeli government are extremely religious. Doesn't look representative of a secular state to me.
King_David
(14,851 posts)of these religious Jews who hold power in the Israeli government ...
This should be good.
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)Shall you be wanting the names of the four Cabinet Ministers from Shas? Or will you be trying to argue that Shas isn't really a religious party?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)The fact is that there is a strong religious presence in the Israeli govt, and Shas, which is a religious party holds four Cabinet positions. I'm not sure if yr aware of the power that comes with having a Cabinet position, but we're not talking junior guppie folk here...
King_David
(14,851 posts)The claim was "many who hold power in the Israeli government"
4 out of 32 is many ?
(Now I know you will move to some other irrelevant detail and go on and on , but my point is proved and I won't keep going on and on )
Violet_Crumble
(35,977 posts)What you are ignoring is that the religious parties do hold a lot of influence in Israeli politics. You want to split hairs over the definition of many or pretend that Cabinet positions are just the same as any other member of the govt, you go right ahead.
Not sure if you'll find the OP itself irrelevant, but I'd be interested to know whether you agree with what the Israeli govt is doing now when it comes to settlement expansion.
sabbat hunter
(6,835 posts)but they have had coalition governments will both the left and the right wings (labor and likud). They are basically concerned with making sure that Yeshiva's continue to get government funding, and to help the social-economic needs of the Sephardic community in Israel. Historically they have been quite moderate on WB/Gaza issues.
They are religious based, but also gain support of non-religious members of the Sephardi.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Um, yeah, that's why the civil institiutions are controlled by the Orthodox.
Orthodox and their cohorts outnumber atheists handily, and they control the Israeli government.
But, they are all united in their hate of Arabs and especially Palestinians.
King_David
(14,851 posts)'But, they are all united in their hate of Arabs and especially Palestinians'
And the majority of Jews in the USA are united with The Jews in Israel,
So I call Bullshit on that.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)I heard my great great grandfather owned hundreds of thousands of acres in Russia. Maybe I should reclaim it all... think the us tax payers would be cool with supporrting my efforts?
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Then all of the rhetoric that supporters of Israel can muster won't stop the U.S. from turning off the spigot of cash, weapons and military backing.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)...This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood.
Don't go overboard with the crazy talk.
...In addition, please be aware that many conspiracy theories have roots in racism and anti-semitism, and Democratic Underground has zero tolerance for bigoted hate speech. In short, you take your chances.
I hope you will consider that you agreed to this when you signed up to become a member here. I won't alert on you, but this is just a friendly hint.
King_David
(14,851 posts)If that is how he feels , DU will decide.
He does not seem to be alone with such views on this thread.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Which I think the TOS speaks against.
That one phrase falls into 'The Protocols of The Elders of Zion,' the 'House of Rothschild aka the Banksters', and other conspiracy theories territory. Even some of those spinmeisters claim it's not about Judaism.
I won't alert on it, since enough people here may believe Zionists do control the government of the USA. They don't see that point, that's my interpretation. Fine by me. I'm not the thread police.
IMHO, it's not the Jews or any foreign group. It's the Christian Nationalists, the wannabe rulers ot the world we're dealing with. Or just greedy criminals who come in all races, religions, etc.
I don't personally see Israel nor Palestine as special. The people have leaders who determine their relationship with each other. The only thing I never find is a good reason for this conflict to go on so long; why the very wealthy allies on both sides haven't worked to resolve this before now.
I feel they are used as proxy like Vietnam was alleged to be between the super powers of the day. If both were unable to get money from abroad, both sides, they would have found a way to coexist together a long time ago as I see no logical or rational reason for this.
Why do you think this is taking so long to resolve?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The only question is whether Israel chooses to be a binational state, or an apartheid state. Zionism and democracy are no longer compatible.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Published:
2 Dec 2012
This past weekend, the media reported that Israel has decided to advance the planning of thousands of apartments in the settlement of Ma’ale Adumim, as part of the E-1 plan, in the area connecting the settlement to Jerusalem. According to media accounts, this decision was reached following the UN General Assembly’s recognition of Palestine as a state with UN observer status.
The implementation of construction plans in E1 will create an urban block between Ma’ale Adumim and Jerusalem, exacerbate the isolation of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank and will divide the West Bank into two separate areas, north and south.
The establishment of settlements in occupied territory runs counter to international humanitarian law, which prohibits the transfer of people from the occupying state into the occupied area. It also prohibits any permanent changes in the occupied territory, with the exception of changes mandated by military needs or in order to benefit the local population. In addition, the establishment of Israeli settlements leads to numerous violations of Palestinians' human rights. The plan to expel Bedouin communities who reside in these areas is a further breach of international humanitarian law, which prohibits the forcible transfer of "protected persons," such as these communities, unless done for their own safety or for an urgent military need. Even then, it is permissible only on a temporary basis.
What is E1?
The E1 master plan (Plan No. 420/4) was approved in 1999. It covers approximately 12,000 dunams of land – most of which Israel declared as state land – of the approximately 48,000 dunams under the jurisdiction of Ma’ale Adumim. The plan includes mainly areas north of the Jerusalem-Jericho road (Route 1) but also some land south of it, near the junction of Route 1 and Route 417 and west of Route 417.
Control of the land designated as E1 was primarily accomplished by declaring the land state land, a step whose illegality was demonstrated in a comprehensive report by B’Tselem. The area of E1 includes enclaves of privately owned Palestinian land, totaling some 775 dunams. These lands were excluded from the area declared as state lands for legal reasons, and are not officially covered by the plan. Clearly, however, the reality on the ground created by the plan will severely limit the access for Palestinian landowners to their property.
In addition to plans for residential housing, the plan indicates areas for other uses such as tourism, commerce, regional services, a regional cemetery and roads. Two plans have already been approved in detail, enabling them to have building permits issued.
One of these plans designates approximately 1,354 dunams for the construction of a metropolitan employment and business center for the use of both Ma’ale Adumim and the municipality of Jerusalem. The plan, submitted by the Ministry of Industry and Trade and prepared by the firm of Reches-Eshkol, was approved in 2002 but has yet to be implemented.
The second plan designates approximately 179 dunams for the Judea and Samaria district police headquarters, and was approved in 2005. This plan has already been implemented, and the police headquarters operates there. As part of the development of the area for the implementation of the plan, additional infrastructure was put in place, including the paving of roads, the construction of supporting walls, traffic roundabouts and street lighting, costing a total of about NIS 200 million. There is no possible justification for development work on this scale if its only purpose is to allow access to the police headquarters. The reason underlying this extensive infrastructure appears to be the future development of the planned construction of a residential area near the police station.
Whom does the plan harm?
Implementation of the E1 plan will have far-reaching consequences and will interrupt the contiguity of the southern and northern West Bank. Although all settlements are designated as closed military zones to which Palestinians cannot enter without special permits, this order is generally enforced only for the built-up areas. Building new residential neighborhoods north of Route 1 and developing infrastructure west of Route 417, which connects with Route 1, will transform these routes into local roads which run through the continuous built-up area of Ma’ale Adumim, thereby nullifying the regional function they now fulfill for Palestinians and either partially or completely denying access to Palestinians. Moreover, the northeast section of Plan 420/4 also includes part of Route 437, which is currently the sole access road for Palestinians for travel from the northern part of the West Bank (the Ramallah area) to the southern West Bank. Full implementation of Plan 420/4 will place these roads within the continuous built-up area of the settlement, and Palestinians will almost certainly lose access as a result.
remainder: http://www.btselem.org/settlements/20121202_e1_human_rights_ramifications
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I wonder why you made that choice...
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...seems to apply to societies as much as it applies to individuals.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Where are you going with all of this?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Who are you comparing them to?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That seems painfully apt to you?
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Response to Odin2005 (Reply #47)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You even seem to go further, implying it's a perfect comparison. Yes?
Response to oberliner (Reply #82)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Because that is what modern Israel is. "A light unto nations" has become Jim Crow on the Mediterranean.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)As to South Africa, allow me to quote an esteemed former president who was worked extensively for peace in the region (and is often very critical of Israeli actions):
"Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew."
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Can a woman go to a civil court to get a divorce from an abusive husband?
Also, a state founded and operated by, of, and for a single religious group is pretty much a theocracy.
And no one believes that Arabs have legal equality to Jews in Israel. As a factual matter it's false.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They can be common-law husband and wife though.
Everything marriage related is regulated by religious authorities (Jewish, Muslim, or otherwise).
Arabs do have legal equality to Jews in Israel.
A state founded by a single religious group is not "pretty much a theocracy". Theocracy (per Wikipedia) is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group.
Kind of like, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-upholds-legality-of-jews-only-housing-complex-in-jaffa-1.263200
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/03/30/israel-s-palestinian-citizens-issue-unsettled
Get back to me when JNF will lease lands to people it considers infidels.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza can vote for the leadership of the West Bank and Gaza.
Response to oberliner (Reply #91)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You know more about the situation than our former president?
Response to oberliner (Reply #116)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't pretend to know more about the situation than President Carter. I respect his expertise.
Response to oberliner (Reply #124)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think his points about the West Bank are fair.
My thoughts on the OP are that I agree with Ban.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And Diametrically opposite of those of The Democratic Party rank and file,Members of Congress and President.
I disagree and that is why I chose DU as my home.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is that the shoe you are talking about?
Response to oberliner (Reply #81)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Again, fascinating word choice.
Response to oberliner (Reply #92)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Why invite that comparison with such nomenclature?
Response to oberliner (Reply #129)
Bad_Ronald This message was self-deleted by its author.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
Crunchy Frog
(26,646 posts)I guess we had to do it though, since God obviously meant for the land to be ours, and besides, they were engaging in terrorist acts against our settlers.
Xolodno
(6,401 posts)...this is only going to make Israel look worse. Abbas played his hand well in the PR battle. This will make the suffering of Palestinians worse...which will again make Israel look bad. And any violence by the Palestinians...which will be even more "justified" due to the increased suffering from Israel will have to be handled differently as Abbas could now go to the ICC.
Sooner or later, the Likud branch will now have to deal with the Palestinian Authority instead of kicking the issue down the road while building settlements. If they do build in the "forbidden zone" and destroy the two state solution...they will eventually be forced to a one state solution. Effectively destroying the "Jewish State" which would be some interesting poetic justice, trying to take all the land for a Jewish State they end up taking all the land and having an Jewish-Islamic state.
4dsc
(5,787 posts)because Israel has never been interested in peace in the region.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)If "Palestine" is actually a state, as asserted by the recent General Assembly vote, then how could this possibly "represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution"?
It just doesn't make any sense, unless the claim that Palestine is already a state is just a cynical, hypocritical lie!
Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)But I suspect observations such as yours will not be appreciated. People seem to be content to use inaccurate words when describing this conflict. There's much less thinking involved.
harun
(11,348 posts)Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)And the point to which I was responding is that the "two-state solution" is not a good enough term for what it will take to bring about peace.
There already are two states, and obviously the solution has not been reached, because neither state is committed to peace.
harun
(11,348 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of another people, illegally so.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Hamas certainly believes that.
Do you support the 67 borders? Or something else?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)So, who cares what opinion I or any American--incluiding Obama, hold on the 67 borders?
There will never be a separate Palestinian state. Never. Israel simply will never allow it.
The US should wash its hands and let the people of that region settle things in the manner of their ancestors.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)there has never been a Israeli - Syrian peace treaty following the 67 war.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)perhaps the new Syrian government will at least willing to sit down with the Israelis.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)Why would they sit down?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Israel gave back the Sinai in exchange for a peace treaty. No reason to believe they would not give back the Golan for a peace treaty. Syria refused to consider a peace treaty - they wanted the Golan returned with no pre-conditions. When you start and lose two wars you don't get to make such demands.
Perhaps the new Syrian government is willing to recognize the state of Israel and sign a peace treaty - one can always hope.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)from the Golan Heights. They're not going to do it. No reason to make excuses about it.
And Israel is supporting the current Syrian regime. They don't want to face a new government like they are in Egypt.
Come on.
hack89
(39,171 posts)that's what it took for Israel to withdraw from the Sinai. That is what it would have taken for Syria to get back the Golan.
Do you think Israel would just hand back the Golan to a country still technically at war with it? Come on.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)But you're seriously jeopardizing your credibility if you think Israel would ever cede the Golan -- thus the reason why Israel won't enter into a peace treaty. The Syrians want their land back.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Syria has to sit down with Israel if they want the Golan back. The military option is gone now that their military has been destroyed in the civil war.
As long as Syria and Israel are technically in a state of war, international law is on Israel's side.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)The U.S. -- and many other nations -- have occupied states after war had both practically and "technically" ended.
But after thirty or so years, they were long gone.
hack89
(39,171 posts)what other examples do you have?
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)You cited the law. Let's see it.
hack89
(39,171 posts)or one side has been defeated.
There is no requirement in international law for a war to end in a peace treaty - but that is not what I said. I said that Syria and Israel are technically at war - the best evidence of that being the 30 years of on and off peace talks.
In that context no one, including Syria can simply say "the war is over, give us back the Golan." And that is my point about the Golan - international law does not say that Israel has to return the Golan simply because the war was 30 years ago. Especially since Syria was the aggressor.
BTW - I asked for proof of this: "The U.S. -- and many other nations -- have occupied states after war had both practically and "technically" ended."
Do you actually have anything?
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)You cited it. Let's see it.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Can you at least read what I wrote first?
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)" . . . international law is on Israel's side."
hack89
(39,171 posts)I cannot cite what does not exist.
In black and white: There is nothing in international law that says that Israel has to return the Golan because the war was decades ago. Hence " . . . international law is on Israel's side."
Or in other words, nothing in international law supports Syria's position.
Is it clearer now?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)No Israeli government that keeps expanding the settlements, all of which they KNOW are illegal, has any right to claim to want peace.
Please, voters of Israel, defeat Netanyahu and his party of death this January. They aren't on your side. They don't want peace. They don't care how many of you they get killed...they just want to be able to say "we won and they lost". It's masochistic for ANY Israeli to support keeping this government in power.
Franker65
(299 posts)I don't understand why they need to do this. You don't see the Netherlands settling in western Germany. Extremely pointless and sad.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Would Israel have made that announcement if the UN had not voted to grant statehood to the Palestinians?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The fact that the Palestinians are getting traction in the UN is simply making them be less subtle.
They're expecting us to back them up on this, and I'm sure we will. We certainly carried a lot of stinky water for them trying to block the UN vote.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1) Platitudes about peace process and negotiated settlement;
2) Unconditional support for Israel at UN;
3) Strong condemnation for anything Palestinians do to embarrass Israel;
4) Empty rhetoric pretending to be bothered by what Israel does;
5) Unconditional economic and military aid for Israel, no matter what it does.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs, but from what I've heard Israel gives us a platform in the middle east and they eagerly test the weapons and security systems we give them for us in real world situations.
It's really disturbing how we blow each other up for something as ephemeral as "money."
Carolina
(6,960 posts)the fact that US supports Israel no matter what Israel does to its neighbors, even when Israel kills American citizens (Rachel Corie, Furkan Dogan) is one of the reasons others in the ME hate the US.
I am sick and tired of the hypocrisy about Israel and the US money/armaments (my tax dollars) that support this bully regime.
harun
(11,348 posts)Hydra
(14,459 posts)The sad thing is that under the rhetoric, those people still pretending peace is desirable don't actually support it...and are using increasingly desperate tactics to shut down the discussion.
I say, embrace your goals where all the world can see! It worked for Bush, right?
kiranon
(1,727 posts)2 states. Apply for job of peacemaker at your peril. Job will last for the next century or so, maybe more. No benefits or pension. Must provide own security detail. Psychological exam required as part of the application.
