Chicago suing gunmaker Glock for selling easily convertible weapons

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: UK Independent

2 hours ago


The City of Chicago is suing gun manufacturer Glock after law enforcement found more than a thousand firearms which had been converted into illegal machine guns over the past two years. The Austrian company is the most popular manufacturer of handguns in the United States, the city said, but is also facilitating the “proliferation of illegal machine guns on the streets of Chicago”. The lawsuit, filed with the Cook County Circuit Court, alleges that Glock is selling semi-automatic pistols which are easily converted into machine guns using a cheap device known as a “Glock switch”.

“The City of Chicago is encountering a deadly new frontier in the gun violence plaguing our communities because of the increase of fully automatic Glocks on our streets,” Mayor Brandon Johnson said in a statement. “Selling firearms that can so easily be converted into automatic weapons makes heinous acts even more deadly, so we are doing everything we can in collaboration with others committed to ending gun violence to hold Glock accountable for putting profits over public safety.”

Chicago Police Department and other agencies have found around 1,100 illegal machine guns linked with crimes including aggravated assaults, kidnappings and homicides. The switches enabling these conversions can be bought for as little as $20, the suit says, or made at home using a 3D printer.

“Right now, anyone in the United States with $20 and a screwdriver can convert their Glock pistol into an illegal machine gun in just a few minutes,” Eric Tirschwell, executive director of Everytown Law, added. “We intend to hold Glock accountable for the unconscionable decision to continue selling its easily modified pistols even though it could fix the problem, knowing that by refusing to do so it is exacerbating gun violence in Chicago.”

Read more: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chicago-glock-lawsuit-machine-gun-switches-b2515320.html

[Silent Type]

1. Hope the suit is successful. If we don't have guts to take guns off the streets,

we can make them harder to covert. We can also require locks, ways to trace casings to guns, etc.

Gotta keep fighting gun profiteers and gun-humpery.

[TexasDem69]

2. Yet another attempt to blame gun manufacturers

For crimes committed by criminals. Pretty sure Glock isn’t responsible for the violence in Chicago. The conversions are illegal and the crimes are illegal so why blame Glock?

[BumRushDaShow]

3. "so why blame Glock"

Because their current designs allow easy mods to convert a legal weapon into an illegal one.

Here in Philly last week, we had 8 kids who were waiting for a bus, who were shot in a spray of bullets, and the weapons were illegally modified glocks -

2 in custody in connection with 'heinous' mass shooting at Philadelphia bus stop: Police

Three masked gunmen fired more than 30 rounds at a group of teenagers.

By Emily Shapiro
March 11, 2024, 5:08 PM

(snip)


Police said they recovered a gun that matches multiple casings from the shooting scene: a fully loaded .40 caliber Glock 22 pistol with an extended magazine.

"It also had laser sights on it. And it had what we call a Glock switch, which made that firearm fully automatic -- it was a machine gun," Vanore said.

(snip)

https://abcnews.go.com/US/2-custody-connection-mass-shooting-philadelphia-bus-stop/story?id=108015324

A 4th (and last) fugitive suspect was finally apprehended yesterday by U.S. Marshals down in Arlington, VA. - https://www.usmarshals.gov/news/press-release/4th-suspect-philadelphia-bus-stop-shooting-arrested-virginia

[TexasDem69]

4. So someone illegally modified a Glock

Then illegally shot some other people. At least two crimes there. And you want to blame Glock? The assholes who illegally modified the gun should go to prison, and the assholes who illegally shot 8 people should go to prison and never get out. Right?

[BumRushDaShow]

5. The point being that they can design some kind of "defeat"

in the trigger (or other location on the weapon) to make it harder to mod. It's a solution.

[TexasDem69]

6. Agreed that there might be some sort of fix

But still don’t think Glock is to blame.

[BumRushDaShow]

7. If this suit can force them to make some simple design changes as a compromise

then it well definitely help.

[The Grand Illuminist]

8. Everything can be hackable.

No matter how much is changed.

[BumRushDaShow]

10. Sure but to add deterrants that make it harder to do should not be ruled out

The fact that this "Glock switch" thing has proliferated as fast as it has is something (like the "bump stocks" ) that needs to be dealt with.

[Zeitghost]

14. It's a solution in search of a problem

Automatic gunfire is essentially useless in a pistol and if anything makes them less capable of mass casualties because they are less accurate, prone to jamming and run out of ammunition in a second or two. The benefits of automatic pistols don't translate to street crime or mass shooters. Those intent on a mass casualty event will use controlled, aimed fire.

[BumRushDaShow]

16. "Automatic gunfire is essentially useless in a pistol"

It's not "useless". The criminal doesn't care as long as a maximum amount of ammunition can be discharged at a victim to "ensure the kill" and then they run off.

I posted upthread what happened here in Philly last week - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3212134

2 in custody in connection with 'heinous' mass shooting at Philadelphia bus stop: Police

Three masked gunmen fired more than 30 rounds at a group of teenagers.

By Emily Shapiro
March 11, 2024, 5:08 PM

(snip)


Police said they recovered a gun that matches multiple casings from the shooting scene: a fully loaded .40 caliber Glock 22 pistol with an extended magazine.

"It also had laser sights on it. And it had what we call a Glock switch, which made that firearm fully automatic -- it was a machine gun," Vanore said.

(snip)

https://abcnews.go.com/US/2-custody-connection-mass-shooting-philadelphia-bus-stop/story?id=108015324

Ultimately it was reported that one teen had 9 bullets in him and he and another caught in the crossfire are in critical condition. The others were reportedly in stable condition. They were all students at the same high school and obviously the kids and faculty are distraught.

The machine-gun modified Glock took seconds to dispense its load -

All 4 suspects have now been captured.

These fucking things need to be taken off the streets.

[Zeitghost]

17. The difference in the time

It takes to empty a magazine in semi auto vs full auto is so short as to not be relevant. Full auto is for suppressive fire in combat situations, not for taking out individual targets.

Glock could alter their design tomorrow and the streets of Chicago will not be any safer.

[BumRushDaShow]

19. "Full auto is for suppressive fire in combat situations, not for taking out individual targets."

"Combat situations" is why people are trying to get MANY of these weapons being sold to "civilians" the hell out of gun shops.

The typical "mass shooter" is not trained to "hunt" like an "assassin". In some cases, they have a "target" they plan to get and they will blow away anyone who is in the way of their "target" by spraying bullets everywhere. Alternately, others just want to go on a shooting spree, spraying bullets hither and yon.

There is no need for a "civilian" non-combatant to have an "extended magazine" or anything that enhances a legal civilian weapon to fire more bullets, faster from a weapon that can easily be modded to "simulate" a machine gun.

[Zeitghost]

20. I agree they don't need to be in civilian hands

But spray and pray full auto is not what is driving gun violence in Chicago or anywhere else in the US and soon to fail lawsuits against companies who manufacture legal firearms isn't going reduce anything.

[BumRushDaShow]

21. "spray and pray full auto is not what is driving gun violence in Chicago or anywhere else"

No but the "success of use" of specific types and models of these firearms IS driving a whole underground market of trafficking these weapon models to criminals, often thanks to the ability to mod, and the variety of "mods" that can be obtained to enhance their functioning.

I.e., there would be no "underground market" for selling 18th century muskets for use in this type of criminal activity because obviously, they are inefficient and only capable of firing one ball at a time (where your hit rate is near nil when used in a crowd vs something with a 12-round or even 30-round mag that when "sprayed", will hit something or someone).

[Zeitghost]

22. The firearms in question

Are perfectly capable of inflicting harm without modifications and the modifications in question are already illegal and do not lead to a more deadly weapon.

So what good will come of this lawsuit that is already doomed to fail?

[BumRushDaShow]

23. "The firearms in question Are perfectly capable of inflicting harm without modifications"

Then why are "mods" being sold at all and why design a weapon that can be extensively changed from its original configuration?

The "cool factor"?

Or maybe the "maximize the damage inflicted to the target" factor (which makes it MORE lethal than the original design).

[Zeitghost]

24. How does it maximize damage?

You can empty the magazine of a Glock in a few seconds of controlled fire and hit what you’re aiming at.

Cool factor and ignorance are likely the leading factors. Street criminals aren’t the smartest bunch. Most people, criminal or not, get their gun knowledge from action movies. It’s why so many people don’t understand that AR and AK platform rifles aren’t all that powerful when compared to your average deer rifle.

[BumRushDaShow]

25. "How does it maximize damage?"

Are you kidding me? Ask the 58 people who were killed and 800 who were injured in Las Vegas by one guy. aiming at the crowds from the window of a hi-rise hotel, and spraying bullets at people down on the ground thanks to his "bump stock" mods - ALL IN 11 MINUTES.

[Zeitghost]

26. Apples and Oranges

He was not using a pistol….

[BumRushDaShow]

27. No it's not.

A weapon modded to fire like "a machine gun" is spraying bullets beyond what it was originally designed to do.

Here's an inventory of the weapons he had in the room - https://www.ktnv.com/news/las-vegas-shooting/list-guns-and-evidence-from-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock

[Zeitghost]

30. The OP is about illegally modified pistols

There is a world of difference between a rifle and a pistol and their semi auto and full auto variants.

I have seen nothing that suggests that anyone would be any safer if Glock is made to modify their pistols, which they won’t be. That is the topic the rest of us are discussing.

[BumRushDaShow]

31. The suing of the gun companies is a "new tactic"

that has become successful to show their liability for their disregard for safety and their marketing tactics. See Remington.

It doesn't matter what the hell type it is because that just obfuscates the real issue, which is the end result is carnage.

I posted a video in another reply here that shows what happens when a Glock is fitted with a "switch". I.e., it sprays out 30 bullets in 2.3 seconds -

[Straw Man]

33. With aimed fire ...

... the Vegas shooter could have killed far more people in those 11 minutes, albeit with a lower toll of injured. More dead and fewer injured: Is that progress?

[BumRushDaShow]

38. "With aimed fire ...the Vegas shooter could have killed far more people in those 11 minutes"

With bump stock mods he not only "killed 59" but injured 800. Those 800 "injured" weren't just "injured" from sprained ankles or stubbed toes but had some kind of gunshot grazing or wound.

So to hell with the injured because they didn't get taken out by a loon who was "aiming" and thus don't count?

Ya'll can keep trying to justify this nonsense. It's idiotic.

[Straw Man]

40. So your contention ...

... is that fewer injuries but more deaths is preferable to more injuries but fewer deaths? That's a pretty bizarre calculus from a public-safety standpoint. What I am saying is that full-auto is not the horrifyingly lethal bugaboo that is portrayed to be.

What "nonsense" am I justifying? Full-auto is already illegal -- with rare exeptions -- and should remain so. I have no problem with that. The real "nonsense" is the contention that the manufacturer of a legal item bears the onus for preventing the illegal modification of that item. It's a shaky proposition, both technologically and legally.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. "So your contention... is that fewer injuries but more deaths is preferable to more injuries but fewer deaths?"

My contention is that the ability to "mod" makes these weapons, what one might call on the simplest level, "an attractive nuisance". And the availability of these "mods" all over the internet is an example of the existence of the demand for them and lots of people making sure they can supply them (even by using of a 3D printer).

It's like how many municipalities have ordinances that require people who have backyard pools (especially in-ground) to fence the yard, otherwise it can "attract" law-breaking "trespassers" because "it's there and available". And then the homeowner can be liable if someone is injured or drowns.

The "fence" is the "deterrent" (although not full-proof) and makes it less likely for someone to violate the law and trespass...And these gun manufacturers need to build in some kind of "deterrent", to make it harder to mod to create a "machine gun" out of a hand gun.

[Straw Man]

47. Attractive nuisances.

Here's where your analogy goes awry: Yes, it is incumbent on the owner of the pool to build a protective fence, as mandated by law. And it is incumbent on the owner of a firearm not to perform illegal modifications to that firearm. Transferring that obligation to the manufacturer of the pistol would be like making the manufacturer of pool liners responsible for the installation of the protective fences.

The notion that the mere existence of a pistol is an invitation to illegal modification is ludicrous.

[BumRushDaShow]

49. *Whoosh*

Manufacturers of both in-ground and above-ground pools with defects or poor design (e.g., pump/drain system faults, unstable platforms, etc.) have been sued and are liable for injuries and deaths, which reinforces the need even more for "deterrence" by both the manufacturer and an owner to reduce liability should someone else, in addition to the owner, be impacted by a defective or modified pool (e.g., diving board or slide "added" or the design allowing the ability to install an incorrect pump), and then someone gains illegal access to it.

Your oversimplification nonsense of "the mere existence of a pistol is an invitation to illegal modification" obfuscates the arguments made here about the ease of modification, something that can be reduced or remedied, but instead results in a refusal to do so when it is pointed out. And that's because arrogance and greed won't allow it.

[Straw Man]

50. Whoosh-whoosh ...

Manufacturers of both in-ground and above-ground pools with defects or poor design (e.g., pump/drain system faults, unstable platforms, etc.) have been sued and are liable for injuries and deaths, which reinforces the need even more for "deterrence" by both the manufacturer and an owner to reduce liability should someone else, in addition to the owner, be impacted by a defective or modified pool (e.g., diving board or slide "added" or the design allowing the ability to install an incorrect pump), and then someone gains illegal access to it.

So let me get this straight: The fact that a product can be illegally modified is a "defect" for which the manufacturer bears responsibility? If so, we're about to embark on the greatest round of whack-a-mole litigation this country has ever seen. Perhaps you're forgetting my earlier point that virtually any modern handgun can be similarly modified. Furthermore, there are many ways to achieve this illegal modification of function.

How would you propose that swimming pool manufacturers make it impossible to add a diving board or slide? Or an incorrect pump? What feat of magical engineering will protect us from all potential misuse and abuse of legal products?

[BumRushDaShow]

51. It's simply breathtaking to see the amount of time and effort

that some take to promote the unrestricted proliferation and endless enhancement of a weapon that is not meant for hunting game for food, but to kill people.

My father was a WW2 vet and his father (my grandfather) a WW1 vet and both used to go to upstate here in PA to hunt elk. I grew up with Field and Stream magazine in the house and still have my dad's bamboo fly fishing pole.

If they were alive today, they would be appalled at the sickness of what has become the fetishization of guns.

[Straw Man]

54. And it's equally breathtaking ...

... to see the amount of time and effort people spend on seeking solutions through technological minutiae to what are overwhelmingly social problems. Microstamping, AWBs, magazine restrictions, et al are of minimal utility in addressing the problem of criminal gun violence.

I hear a lot of talk about licensing gun owners. I think this is an excellent idea and could be highly effective if coupled with a zero tolerance policy for criminal possession and criminal misuse of firearms.

BTW, "a weapon that is not meant for hunting game for food, but to kill people" is a false dichotomy. Those aren't the only uses of firearms. But you knew that.

[BumRushDaShow]

55. Gun fetish on display.

[Straw Man]

57. Another rhetorical "Nyah-nyah"?

C'mon now. I thought we were discussing the issue.

[Straw Man]

48. Dupe.

Please delete.

[Straw Man]

28. Factors.

Then why are "mods" being sold at all and why design a weapon that can be extensively changed from its original configuration?

The "cool factor"?

That's exactly it. The desire to appear bad-ass, despite the questionable utility of the conversion.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding on this forum of what "suppressive fire" means in a combat context. It has nothing to do with hitting targets; aimed semi-automatic fire is much more effective at that. The goal of suppressive fire is to put so many bullets in the air that the enemy is forced to remain in a covered position and is therefore incapable of movement. This is not a tactic that street criminals would find useful in any way.

BTW, the reason these devices are available for Glocks and not for pistols by other makes is because there are so many Glocks out there. They dominate the handgun market, with an estimated 65% market share. There is nothing inherently modifiable about the Glock design, so if legal action forces them to incorporate some kind of anti-modification technology (and it's hard to imagine what that would be), then the purveyors of illegal "switches" will move on to the next most popular striker-fired handgun.

[BumRushDaShow]

29. "This is not a tactic that street criminals would find useful in any way."

Many of the "street criminals" of today are teens who grew up with Nintendo switches playing games that encourage killing as many of "the enemy" as they can (or "be killed" ). It's not even the TV or movie stuff anymore.

There is nothing inherently modifiable about the Glock design

30 bullets in 2.3 seconds.

[Straw Man]

32. You missed both points.

Regardless of the criminals' motivations, the "Glock switch" does little or nothing to increase the pistol's lethality.

And I re-iterate that there is nothing about the Glock that makes it more amenable to this kind of modification. It can be done with any model of striker-fired pistol, of which there are dozens if not hundreds on the market. Glock has the biggest market share, which is why the black-marketeers have created a design for the Glock. It's simply a marketing decision on their part.

Mandating a re-design for the Glock will only make the criminal market move to another brand.

[BumRushDaShow]

37. "the "Glock switch" does little or nothing to increase the pistol's lethality."

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[Straw Man]

41. Please explain where I have erred.

And no, a face-palm emoji is not a compelling argument.

[BumRushDaShow]

43. Then I will repeat what I wrote

But I'll bold and highlight it since you get distracted by graphics.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[Straw Man]

44. Yeah, I saw that.

I ignored it for two reasons:

1) It looked like a signature line as opposed to actual content.
2) It's the rhetorical equivalent of "Nyah nyah-nyah nyah nyah."

[BumRushDaShow]

45. You just proved my point.

[Straw Man]

46. How?

I thought you proved mine. See how that works?

[DVRacer]

58. Oh you are correct about that

Already seen the new version that fits an Sig P320 and P365. 3d printing is the thing and you can’t stop the signal. They were recovered in Tulsa and Broken Arrow they claim they bought them in St Louis.

[cstanleytech]

36. Hopefully the ones that committed that crime will get life without parole.

[BumRushDaShow]

39. I just heard on the news this morning

that they found and arrested a 5th suspect who had apparently texted a "go" message to the perps.

I was shocked at how fast it happened - literally they jumped out, ran across the parking lot, started shooting, ran back, jumped in the car and took off - all in less than 20 seconds, with most of the time being running a couple dozen feet both ways.

The apparent "target" had 9 bullets in him and 7 others standing at the bus stop were shot in that crossfire, including one other who was in critical condition along with "the target".

There were 30 shell casings found at the scene and per another video I posted here that included comments by an ATF chief in Houston discussing this type of modded weapon, which was what was used here in this Philly situation (and the video included several demo shots of a modded Glock in action), those "Glock switches" allow the weapon to fire off 30 bullets in 2.3 seconds.

[Barry Markson]

52. If by "these fucking things need to be taken off the streets"

You mean thugs in hoodies I'm with you.

Round them up, lock them up, and throw away the keys. Treat them like the animals they've become.

[BumRushDaShow]

53. 5 suspects (and their weapons)

have been "taken off the streets".

They may have been involved in an earlier shooting in other parts of the city.

[Barry Markson]

56. Excellent

Now keep them there.

They have absolutely no socially redeeming value.

[twodogsbarking]

12. That is what we have been doing and it, well, has failed. Isn't thiis a right wing arguing point?

[FakeNoose]

9. Let's be clear - these aren't guns used for sport or deer hunting

These are illegal killing and criming machines. That is their only use. Glock is a company that thinks they can skirt our laws for profit, and they must be taken down. Don't talk to me about "2nd amendment rights" - this has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.

I find it hard to believe that the federal government is sitting back and letting the City of Chicago take the lead on this.

[Zeitghost]

18. What laws are they skirting?

A Glock handgun is not much different than any other semi-auto. They just happen to be the most popular, mainly because they are well made, easy to use, durable and inexpensive. It's the Toyota Corolla of handguns.

This won't be effective even if successful, which it won't be. Wasted effort chasing headlines instead of addressing the problem with gun violence.

[DVRacer]

59. Or they are the most popular issued firearm

For most law enforcement agencies including federal agencies. The City of Chicago has a contract itself with Glock for its police department.

[twodogsbarking]

11. We need extensive gun control, desperately. We are not going to get it.

Welcome to 'merica.

[NickB79]

13. There's no appetite for it, it seems

An assault rifle ban? Sure, broad support for it nationwide. But they're used in a few hundred of the 13,000 murders committed annually.

A handgun ban like Canada's? Even a majority of Democrats don't go for that in most polls. We really like our guns, and really don't trust police to keep us safe.

[cstanleytech]

35. Won't happen anytime if at all unfortunately

[cstanleytech]

34. Probably won't survive a SCOTUS challenge assuming it even gets that far.