At least 10 civilians killed in Israeli airstrike

[Boxerfan]

Source: By KARIN LAUB AND IBRAHIM BARZAK, AP

"GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — An Israeli missile flattened a two-story house in a residential neighborhood of Gaza City on Sunday, killing at least 11 civilians, medical officials said, as Israel expanded its targets of its offensive to target homes of wanted militants."

"The airstrike targeted the home of the Daloo family in Gaza City's Nasser neighborhood, reducing it to rubble."


"Frantic rescuers pulled the children's bodies from the ruins of the house, including a toddler and a 5-year-old, as survivors and bystanders screamed in grief. Later, the bodies of the children were laid out in the morgue of Gaza City's Shifa Hospital."

"The Israeli military said the target of the attack was a top rocket mastermind of the Islamic Jihad militant group. The claim could not be verified, and al-Kidra said the two men killed in the attack were also civilians."

-------------End copyright material


Read more: http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121117/ML.Israel.Palestinians/

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I know I'll get flack for this but If Israel wants peace-they should start acting like it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Palestinian dead don't matter as much as Israeli dead, so nevermind.

[iandhr]

4. No they matter a lot more.

When 5,000 rockets hit southern Israel before the last war no one cares. When Israel responds it brings mass outrage from around the would.

[ensemble]

6. well...

are we counting rockets or bodies? And Israel was just minding their own business and the rocket attacks came for no reason?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

13. Don't bother.

There are so many neo-con "progressives" at this point that its become impossible to have a rational discussion. Somehow they've all become slightly more socially progressive and brought their archaic quasi racist foreign policy with them. All you have to do is look for the dog whistles, they'll blame everyone except for the people who dropped the bombs.

And no I DO NOT support Hamas.

[parkia00]

84. That does it@!

You are anti-Semitic weasel and are only interested in blackening the name of Israel. And all you want to do is see Israel fail and see Jews die!

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. How many Israelis did those 5,000 missiles kill?

I would wager Israel has killed more people in the past couple of days.

[glacierbay]

11. What fucking difference does it make how many Israelis'

the rockets killed? The fact that Hamas is shooting them into Israel tells us that there intended purpose is to try to kill as many civilians as possible, and Israel has every right to defend themselves and try to end the threat.

[Comrade Grumpy]

22. If Israel wants peace, it needs to remove its boot from the neck of the Palestinians.

Gaza is nothing more than an open air prison.

What fucking difference does it make? Ask the dead. There are many, many more dead Palestinians, including the 11 members of one family (five women, four kids) killed by the "we don't target civilians" Israelis with one rocket.

[glacierbay]

26. If the Palestinians want peace

they need to quit attacking Israel with indiscriminate rockets designed to kill and terrorize.
Any civilian deaths on both sides is tragic.

I notice that you don't express any sympathy for the Israeli deaths, why is that?
Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. I feel bad for those three (3) dead Israelis.

Too bad Israel decided to assasinate the Hamas defense minister, setting off the mass missile attacks and precipitating the current crisis.

Israel needs to figure out that even if it "wins," it loses. Like in Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2008.

No peace for Israel until there is a just, comprehensive peace settlement that creates a real Palestinian state, not open air prisons with the IDF as the prison guards.

[NutmegYankee]

31. The Palestinians are getting the treatment they desire. They need to choose nonviolent resistance.

Gandhi managed to free India from the largest empire in the world without firing a single shot or launching a single rocket. Firing rockets into Israel isn't going to get them anywhere but worse off.

[Scootaloo]

33. Yes, those dead kids were just begging to be bombed

Once again, the "Pro-Israel" angle reveals its true face. Well done.

[NutmegYankee]

34. Ah, the Pro-terrorist faction rears it's ugly head.

Once again - no children would be murdered by retaliatory bombing if the rockets would stop. Their parents made that choice and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Gandhi was right - nonviolence is the path to free a country.

[Scootaloo]

35. Yes, being offended by the killing of civilians makes me a terrorist-loving antisemite

Booga booga booga, fear me. Heard this line before, doesn't phase me.

What choice did their parents make, exactly? You know Hamas assumed dominance over the gaza strip via a coup and near-civil war against the Fatah-led PA, don't you? So don't give me the "Palestinian children deserve to die because their daddy voted hamas six years ago" angle.

Also, don't try this "Israel has no choice but to bomb them!" argument. It strips the Israelis of any self-applied agency for one, and for another, it simply isn't true.

So. Tell me again how these kids were begging for death, Nutmeg.

[NutmegYankee]

37. I was responding in kind. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to namecall.

Hamas is making a political decision to wage war, putting the lives of their people on the line. Launching rockets into another country is by definition war. Look back at the World wars or other wars - Civilians always are harmed. The only way to not harm children is to not fight wars - PERIOD!

In this case, Israel has every right to respond back - no people on earth is just going to allow themselves to be bombed without responding. It's not just the kill rate, it's the psychological trauma. A stable civilization cannot exist under constant siege. Does Israel treat the Palestinians like shit? Absolutely! But I still believe that non-violent resistance would get them free far faster than this constant war game.

As for your children lines, it's a sophism approach that is not worthy of serious response.

[Scootaloo]

43. You can't even keep your argument straight

I'm quick to name-call because you were saying that these innocent people deserved to die. I find this strain to be very indicative of hte "Pro-Israel" position which at least in this country, is defined primarily by hatred of Arabs. When you tell me that these people are "getting the treatment they desire" in a post talking about a house full of civilians getting blown the fuck up, yeah, that's exactly what your attitude is.

For your next trick, reconcile this argument of yours: "The only way to not harm children is to not fight wars - PERIOD! ...unless you are Israel and have some excuse then it's totally okay go ahead"

Now, you can have one position or the other, I suppose they're both valid, independently of one another. But they don't go together very well. Try again, and see if you can do it without handwaving the deaths of innocents this time.

[NutmegYankee]

46. Nothing inconsistent there.

I oppose war from both parties. I do believe that war can achieve a seize fire (stop rockets), but only after much bloodshed. I don't think the war will help the Palestinians become a free nation, which is what I want to see. I want a 2 state solution. I don't want Israeli's nor Palestinians to die.

But, if one side is going to start attacking, I recognize the right of the other party to defend themselves. At this point, Israel has few options, and to just take getting shelled constantly isn't a logical choice. We probably disagree on the nature of response, but I'd like to think you are level headed enough to recognize that Israeli's also don't want a rocket to kill their children. If Hamas won't stop diplomatically, then the choice is made by them. Somehow the rockets must stop.

As for desired (NOT DESERVED), look at Hamas's Charter. They won't accept a 2 state solution and desire endless war. They want the obliteration of the Jewish state. Endless war costs the lives of the children. Non-violent resistance would allow all sides to give and come to a solution. Violence just justifies the status quo.

We generally label the desires of a government as the desires of a people. A government that don't want to have citizens killed must choose a different method than war.

[Ken Burch]

73. And both sides in this are EQUALLY WRONG to use violence.

Retaliatory violence against civilians is as wrong as any other kind. There was never any way the civilians of Gaza could ever under ANY circumstances have prevented the rocket attacks. The dead Gazan civilians are just as much wrongly dead as were any of the dead Israelis.

No form of state violence has any higher moral sanction than any other.

Ending the Israeli blockade of Gaza would have done far more to stop the rockets than any use of force. It's absurd to assume that the rockets would still have been fired if Gazans were free to enter and leave the country at will.

[NutmegYankee]

74. I don't want violence from either party

I'd prefer a complete cease fire, but I doubt it will happen. Hamas, at least under present leadership, doesn't desire peace with a Jewish state. It's in their political charter.

That said - the rockets need to stop for the bombs to also stop. I hope a diplomatic means to that end can be achieved. I fully believe that non-violence MLK or Gandhi style will get the Palestinians their free state.

[Ken Burch]

75. If you condemn violence, you have to condemn the Israeli attacks as well.

We both know that their use of force cannot lead to peace.

[NutmegYankee]

77. You have to be logical and fair though.

If one party starts shooting and won't stop, I can't blame the other for shooting back. The situation sucks.

[Puregonzo1188]

41. So you actively support Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions then?

[NutmegYankee]

47. If that's what it takes to get a free Palestinian state, yes.

[Puregonzo1188]

51. Alright. Cool. While I disagree with your earlier comment, you are not hypocritical in your stances

so I respect that.

[Ken Burch]

68. Excuse me...not ALL Palestinians desire this.

There have been plenty of Palestinians using nonviolence...it's just that the U.S. MSM refuses to cover them, since covering them would discredit the "ALL Palestinians are terrorist psychos" meme.

[NutmegYankee]

69. I was referring to their government.

I didn't desire war in Iraq, but our elected leadership did.

[Ken Burch]

70. by your logic, Iraq would have been fully justified in attacking U.S. territory & U.S. civilians...

...which is something they never did...

[NutmegYankee]

71. They never did because they didn't have the means to

If they had the ships or missiles with sufficient range, they undoubtedly would have. Any nation with the ability will attack the homeland of it's enemy.

[Ken Burch]

72. "undoubtably"?

That's a stretch.

The fact is, they could have found some way to attack U.S. civilians if they'd wanted to...if Al Qaeda could have, so could Saddam.

They just didn't...and that's more of the proof that our invasion of Iraq was always totally unjustified.

[NutmegYankee]

76. You have to seperate out the Iraqi Military from the insurgency that followed.

If the Iraqi military had the means to hit our ports or refineries (all civilian targets), they would have. Any nation would to stop an enemy. Of that I have no doubt.

I'm not arguing Bushian bullshit about a threat from WMDs and such. I'm saying that any country we engage would want to hit infrastructure and such if they can. This is a standard warfare tactic. Iraq just didn't have the means before they collapsed.

[glacierbay]

8. [phone]

the level of outrage against Israel defending itself and the lack of outrage for the Hamas terrorists committing attacks on Israel never ceases to amaze.
Israel's not perfect but they do have the absolute right to respond to threats against it's security.
My wife has family living in Tel Aviv and she served in the IDF back in the 70's, so she knows first hand what animals these terrorists are.
The stated goal of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran is the total destruction of Israel, so I can understand why Israel responds so forcefully.

[hrmjustin]

27. I think world leaders have been supportive.

[Ken Burch]

66. Would those rockets have been fired(and for the record, I oppose the Hamas use of rockets)

if there hadn't been the Israeli campaign to immiserate the people of Gaza?

The Israeli government is not innocent...they helped cause the continued attacks on Sderot with their tactics.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

2. Won't get flack from me. Israel is an apartheid state. nt

[EX500rider]

54. "Israel is an apartheid state"

The Arab population currently comprises 20% of the population of Israel and Arab citizens are granted the same rights as Jewish citizens under law.

How many Jewish people live in the Palestinian territories? Zero?

Why and which sounds more "apartheid" like? Zero or 20%?

[azurnoir]

58. How many Jewish people live in the Palestinian territories? Zero? no it's 350,000 in the West Bank

not counting East Jerusalem add EJ and it's close to 600,000 but don't that stop you

[EX500rider]

59. Yeah not the parts under Israeli control

How many live in Gaza? What's that, none?

[azurnoir]

60. oh so that make it aokay I see

whatever was I thinking geez

[snappyturtle]

81. Maybe I'm missing something here but why would any Israeli want to

live in Gaza? I understand the converse...just asking.

[Boxerfan]

5. They DID kill civilians-intentionally by any standards..And I just call 'em as I see 'em

And never had a opinion on anything other than based on observation...so that makes me???

Sick of people who defend tyrants-thats what it makes me...

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. No, Israel generally doesn't intentionally kill civilians.

It just bombs the shit out of heavily populated urban areas and, well, you know, accidents happen. Too bad for those little Palestinianan kids. But they probably would have grown up to be terrorists anyway.

[glacierbay]

14. Maybe if the Hamas terrorists would quit hiding their weapons in civilian neighborhoods

then Israel wouldn't target those neighborhoods.
Just sayin.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

16. Thats it

Blame everyone but the people who dropped the bombs. Classy.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

19. I never said such a thing.

But Amnesty International has.

Amnesty International has gathered evidence that suggests at least two of these attacks, on November 8 and 10, were indiscriminate and therefore in violation of international humanitarian law.

“The Israeli military must not carry out further indiscriminate attacks or attacks in densely-populated residential areas that will inevitably harm civilians,” said Harrison.

Both sides are doing this nonsense and until people accept that and stop blindly following each side this shit will go on forever.

http://www.neurope.eu/article/amnesty-says-israel-violation-international-law

[glacierbay]

21. Fair enough

I misunderstood and I will delete.

[coalition_unwilling]

48. They were terrorists disguised as children - n/t

[ForgoTheConsequence]

15. Please stop with the anti-semite nonsense.

This is about a government, not a religion or race. It degrades the term and makes it far less meaningful when you throw it around like that.

[Alamuti Lotus]

23. Eh, that is almost the only argument some have left..

And why not? It usually immediately puts the other person on the defensive and seems to shut some people up pretty well. Like most cheap mudslinging, that line is dragged out ad infinitum because it works in lieu of arguments of substance. Unfortunate, since actual antisemites deserve all of the invective hurled at these erstwhile "crying wolf" occasions.

[oberliner]

61. The hidden post didn't mention anti-semitism

And it's been hidden.

[Alamuti Lotus]

83. Actually, yes it did--front and center no less

"If you think Israel...intentionally tries to kill civilians you are either an anti-semite or a moron"

The title of the post and the first sentence combine to form that statement. What other hidden post could you be referring to?

[Alamuti Lotus]

20. Stunningly disingenuous bullshit.. *nt

[Boxerfan]

9. Borrowed this from another thread..

There are 2 side or more to every story.

All I know is the Israeli's have been torturing the citizens of Gaza for years-it has been a very one sided afair. Long ago I remember they used to have jets break the sound barrier on purpose frequently & at all hours-just to use the sonic booms to torment the citizens of Gaza.

Anyhow-here's the borrowed part..


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-10-things-you-need-to-know_b_2139356.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false&just_reloaded=1
Ten Things You Need to Know About Gaza

As Palestinian militants in Gaza fire rockets into Israel and the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) bombard the Strip 'in retaliation', here are 10 things you should probably know about Gaza:

1) "PRISON CAMP"

David Cameron once referred to Gaza as a "prison camp" and "some sort of open-air prison". 1.7million Palestinians are crammed into just 140 square miles; Gaza is one of the most crowded places on earth.

Israel, despite withdrawing its troops and settlers from the Strip in 2005, continues to control its airspace, territorial waters and border crossings (with the exception, of course, of Gaza's land border with Egypt...."

2) (UN)FAIR FIGHT

Remember: according to the Israeli human-rights group B'Tselem, in the last major conflict between Israel and Hamas - 'Operation Cast Lead' which kicked off in December 2008 - 762 Palestinian civilians were killed, including more than 300 children, compared to three (yes, three!) Israeli civilians.

We seem to be seeing a similar imbalance in bloodshed this time round: "MORE PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED IN GAZA (ON WEDNESDAY) THAN ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED BY PROJECTIVLE FIRE FROM GAZA IN THE PAST 3 YEARS)" wrote Palestinian-American activist Yousef Munayyer on the Daily Beast website.

3) "COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT"

Why do they hate us, ask ordinary Israelis? Well, Gaza has been under siege since January 2006, after its residents dared to elect a Hamas goverment in free and fair elections. The subsequent economic blockade imposed upon the Strip by the Israeli government at one stage prevented the residents of Gaza from importing, among other things, coriander, ginger, nutmeg and, even, newspapers.

Most international lawyers, as well as the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), consider the blockade to be illegal under international humanitarian law; in 2009, a UN panel, led by distinguished South African judge and self-confessed Zionist Richard Goldstone, accused Israel of imposing "a blockade which amounted to collective punishment".


As Palestinian militants in Gaza fire rockets into Israel and the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) bombard the Strip 'in retaliation', here are 10 things you should probably know about Gaza:


4) "ON A DIET"

In 2006, Dov Weissglass, the then chief of staff to Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon summed up his government's approach to Gaza and its residents when he confessed: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."

A rhetorical flourish? Not quite: in 2008, Israeli defence officials in charge of restricting food and supplies from entering Gaza went so far "as to calculate how many calories would be needed to avert a humanitarian disaster in the impoverished Palestinian territory, according to a... declassified military document."

5) STUNTED GROWTH

Some 10% of children under five in the Gaza Strip have had their growth stunted due to prolonged exposure to malnutrition. "Stunting (chronic malnutrition) is not improving and may be deteriorating," concluded the World Health Organisation in May of this year.

6) JOBLESS AND HOPELESS

The unemployment rate in Gaza is 28% - and stands at 58% among young people aged between 20 and 24, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.

7) STRESSED KIDS

One in five children in Gaza suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), according to the award-winning Palestinian psychiatrist Dr Eyad El-Sarraj. (More than half of Gaza's residents, incidentally, are under the age of 18.)

8) KILLING YOUR OWN 'SUBCONTRACTORS'

The escalation of the violence this week was prompted by Israeli's assassination-by-drone of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari; the IDF said Jabari was a terrorist with "blood on his hands". Yet, as Aluf Benn, editor-in-chief of the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, pointed out: "Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza... Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari... Jabari was also Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall."

According to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, Jabari was the "key actor on the Hamas side" responsible for keeping calm inside the Strip and the official who would "force" ceasefires "on all of the other factions and on Hamas". Good job, IDF!

9) POOR GAZANS. LITERALLY.

The most recent UN report on Gaza found that 80% of households in the Strip receive some form of financial assistance and 39% of people live below the poverty line.

10) 1948 AND ALL THAT

Two out of three Palestinian residents of Gaza - more than a million people! - identify themselves as refugees; the majority of these are 1948, and not 1967, refugees - that is, they fled to the Strip in the "ethnic cleansing" of 1948 and not the Six Day War and subsequent occupation of 1967. Thus, tragically, even a two-state solution, based on pre-1967 borders, will not deliver justice to these particular Palestinians.

[msongs]

12. sorta like the US killing civilians with drones in Pakistan nt

[David__77]

17. Obviously the fugitives would not be in those residences.

Especially after the flare-up of the violence. Is this a deliberate policy of targeting the families of those fugitives?

[Welcome_hubby]

24. Netanyahu= baby killer

There.

[glacierbay]

25. Hamas=terrorists.

There, fixed it for ya.

[fascisthunter]

42. did the baby bomb somebody?

your views are extremely elitist and right wing, not to mention ignorant.

[Puregonzo1188]

44. Actually, I would say Hamas are war criminals not terrorists.

[fascisthunter]

63. same as Israel

Unfortunately so is the US.

[Puregonzo1188]

88. Agreed 100%.

[hrmjustin]

28. Can't we all agree that this is madness and that Israeli and Palestinian lives are equal.

[Scootaloo]

36. Most of us seem to be saying exactly that

The trouble is the surprising tolerance the MIRT seems to have for people who believe otherwise.

[hrmjustin]

39. I agree.

[glacierbay]

80. [phone] nt.

[Daniel537]

86. Not if your a US Senator.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4306433,00.html

Not much mention of Palestinian lives there.

[darkangel218]

29. What i dont get is why doesnt Israel let the Palestinians be?

Leave em alone, recognize them as a state, and let them be. I need to educate myself more on the matter, I admit I don't know much about the I/P conflict.

[NutmegYankee]

40. Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution.

Their Charter calls for the obliteration of the Jewish state. As such, they keep fighting, destroying any hope of a peaceful 2 state solution with the Gaza strip.

The West Bank (which is under a different government) could be a stable state if Israel would abandon it's settlements and give full sovereignty to the Palestinians there. In that situation, Israel is definitely the problem.

[darkangel218]

45. Do the Palestinians have their own military?

Or Hamas is their military

[NutmegYankee]

49. Hamas has three wings: military, political, and social

The military wing is heading up the fight. The social wing is the only good part to Hamas, running humanitarian efforts in the Gaza strip. Sadly, this part is overshadowed by the other parts.

[darkangel218]

56. Thank you for explaining me, Nutmeg

Its a very sad situation, I really hope they come to some sort of agreement soon

[Ken Burch]

78. Hamas is one faction within Palestinian politics

it has a military wing...but so does Fatah(the other major faction). Smaller groups have their own factions

(in the run-up to 1948, different Zionist factions had THEIR own armed wings as well).

[Puregonzo1188]

38. So is the total death total in the last two weeks over that of all those killed by rocket attacks

ever (58) yet? And if so can we lose the bullshit "Israeli is defending itself by breaking the ceasefire" meme?

[NutmegYankee]

50. Generally a ceasefire means no firing on the other party.

It's not a body count game. There should be no attacks from either side.

[Puregonzo1188]

52. I was referring to the ten civilians killed. And I know it shouldn't be a body count game, but when

Israel kills more people in a shorter span of time than the rockets kill it makes their claims about trying to stop the rockets seem pretty silly.

[EX500rider]

57. Not really, war doesn't try to make it even..

Japanese attacks at Pearl Harbor killed a total of 2,335 U.S. servicemen and 68 civilians.

In retaliation the US and Allies killed about 2,000,000 Japanese servicemen and between 1/2 million and a million civilians.

The aim isn't to kill an even number of the enemy but to hit them so had they leave you alone and wish they had never started it.

[octothorpe]

65. I suppose the question is, at what point can/should (if ever) Israel take action against the rocket

attacks. Any ideas or thoughts?

[Marrah_G]

79. The same can be asked as to when the Palestinians can fight back against the oppression they suffer

A better question would be at what point will the world say ENOUGH and force these two groups to sit down and work this out? How many more women and children need to die?

[SoapBox]

82. Ditto.

...lots of comments, sides, opinions.

But you said what I think, when will the WORLD say enough is enough?

...both sides are idiots and will not settle it themselves.

[appleannie1]

53. You won't get flack from me

[JesterCS]

55. I believe i saw this happen live on one of the streams

very sad =(

[Marrah_G]

62. I find it disgusting that anyone in this thread is defending either side

They are both wrong and as usual the poorest, usually women children and elderly are the ones who pay the price.

Isreal has no right to be bombing civilians and the Palestinians have no right to bomb civilians.

As long as we keep giving money without making them sit down and come to a FAIR compromise this shit will continue.

[coalition_unwilling]

85. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely

needs saying (over and over again).

[Daniel537]

87. +1

Foreign military aid, to all countries, needs to stop. We talk a big game about supporting democracy and human rights worldwide, and then we go and prop-up countries with histories of violating those same human rights we claim to uphold. These types of conflicts always end up hurting the poorest and most desperate people possible, while the elites on both sides just sit back and view it as one big political game. Its sickening, and we need to stop meddling and getting involved in all these foreign entanglements.

[Ken Burch]

64. Collective punishment is wrong.

The PEOPLE of Gaza are not responsible for the rockets.

[octothorpe]

67. Very true, but is there anything to suggest that Israeli strategy is collective punishment?

Obviously it doesn't matter to the innocents who were killed by the Israeli strikes whether or not the rockets are being launched and stored in residential areas. I mean, dead is dead. But what other possible solutions are there to handling the firing of these rockets? (I'm actually asking, that's not a rhetorical question) Obviously the big picture answer is to have a fair two state solutions, but that's something that won't happen overnight and the rockets will continue to fall even if they started working toward a real solution today. Do the Israelis just take the hits for the greater good? And vise-versa, should the Palestinians take the hits for the greater good?