L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists guilty of manslaughter
Source: BBC
Six Italian scientists and an ex-government official have been sentenced to six years in prison over the 2009 deadly earthquake in L'Aquila.
A regional court found them guilty of multiple manslaughter.
Prosecutors said the defendants gave a falsely reassuring statement before the quake, while the defence maintained there was no way to predict major quakes.
The 6.3 magnitude quake devastated the city and killed 309 people.
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20025626
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Earthquakes are not predictable to any fine degree of accuracy.
Kber
(5,043 posts)This is absurd.
sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)the concept of an Italian Justice system has been pretty much fucked up for a long time.
This will probably be appealed and then quietly dismissed, like so many weird and totally messed up rulings are.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
Scairp
(2,749 posts)When I first read last year that these people had been charged with manslaughter for not predicting an earthquake accurately I thought it was either a joke or a judge would quickly dismiss the charges. It has never been acceptable to hold people responsible over a so-called "act of god". This has gone from being absurd to being scary. The Italian justice system cannot be taken seriously so it would seem that making humans now responsible for how the Earth acts up is their legacy. Way to go Italy. I say boycott this country, no more tourist money from the entire world. This, the Catholic church and it's crimes, the Amanda Knox debacle, the Inquisition, fucking with Galileo, I could go on and on. There are certainly plenty of reasons to stay away and punish them, financially at least. Hopefully like the Amanda Knox & friend's convictions, this too will be overturned as the stupidity it is.
mainer
(12,029 posts)as if it didn't already suffer after the Amanda Knox case.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Due up at the Italian Supreme Court in March 2013.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)no you don't.
you can say 100 times that you do, that will just make you wrong.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts).
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Sorry for any confusion.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)when you reference something someone else said in another subthread, in this subthread, about something else...
you are almost begging for misunderstanding.
mainer
(12,029 posts)for failing to predict the severity of storms and floods?
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)drm604
(16,230 posts)Note, this links to a PDF.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)for making the earthquake to begin with?
What a load of bull. Amazing. Just amazing.
Delphinus
(11,840 posts)I agree with you wholeheartedly - I was driving when I heard this and was simply stunned.
daleo
(21,317 posts)Though that would be amusing, like Clint Eastwood talking to the chair.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Convicted for not being able to predict an earthquake?
Boggles the mind.
Festivito
(13,452 posts)Incredibly immeasurable idiotic buffoonery
For that matter, doctors, lawyers, judges, bailiffs, police, jailers, and administrators all left people reassured.
Everybody except the guy with the "world ends today" sign, turn yourselves in.
Bertha Venation
(21,484 posts)WilmywoodNCparalegal
(2,654 posts)have the same kind of legal 'minds' that small-town courts in Mississippi have. What I mean is that L'Aquila is a small town in an area not exactly known for intellectuals. It is akin to a lot of small towns in the south, including the little town in rural NC where I lived for a long time. The exact same kind of thinking -anti-science, anti-intellectualism- spreads to the judiciary establishment.
Quixote1818
(28,968 posts)My friends brother lives there and he is a professor at John Cabot University. Everyone we met there was interesting and sharp and according to Paul Tegmeyer who is the art history professor, he has never once met anyone in town who didn't believe in evolution.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)As a matter of fact, it's not a good day for Italy. Italy has always needed it's scapegoats, no matter how stupid it makes them look. Someone must take the blame.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)All sounds like a travesty, but I'm curious what it was they published that the survivors claim led them to stay in their homes?
Journeyman
(15,038 posts)any statement from every scientist about quakes is over-weighted with disclaimers and conditions. The joke here is that they are always right with their predictions since any scenario is placed 30 years in the future.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Even by proxy.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Italians can go back to praying to their gods for guidance.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Canuckistanian
(42,290 posts)It's not possible to even MAKE a prediction about WHEN an earthquake will strike. Scientists have been trying to for a long time, with no progress.
And the resultant chill on scientists making predictions for fear of prosecution will leave the public without ANY informed information on life-threatening events.
I hope this is thrown out on appeal.
Quixote1818
(28,968 posts)He can see how easy it is to predict an earthquake and if he is wrong he can go to fucking jail! Ass hole!
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Thus the problem. These six scientists said the research done by Italian laboratory technician Giampaolo Giuliani as to Radon release and earthquake was NOT a good basis for a prediction of earthquakes. That would have been good enough, no legal liability even in Italy. The problem is the six then went on an said they had complete confidence that the prediction of Italian laboratory technician Giampaolo Giuliani was so wrong they told the people not to give it any weight AND do not take any precautions as to an earthquake. i.e they predicted no earthquake will occur. The problem is one did as predicted by Italian laboratory technician Giampaolo Giuliani (Who is NOT among the list of defendants) and now the local government is asking on what basis, other then they hatred of the prediction, did the scientists have to say no earthquake will occur.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/science/04quake.html?_r=0
Italian laboratory technician Giampaolo Giuliani predicted a major earthquake on Italian television a month before, after measuring increased levels of radon emitted from the ground. He was accused of being alarmist by the Director of the Civil Defence, Guido Bertolaso, and forced to remove his findings from the Internet (old data and descriptions are still on line).He was also reported to police a week before the main quake for "causing fear" among the local population when he predicted an earthquake was imminent in Sulmona,about 50 km (31 mi) from L'Aquila, on 30 March, after a 4° quake happened, (later Sulmona only suffered minor damages by the 6 April earthquake).Enzo Boschi, the head of the Italian National Geophysics Institute declared:
Every time there is an earthquake there are people who claim to have predicted it. As far as I know nobody predicted this earthquake with precision. It is not possible to predict earthquakes.
Predicting earthquakes based on radon emissions has been studied by scientists since the 1970s, but enthusiasm for it had faded due to inconsistent results.
In December 2009, Giuliani presented his research, without many important details, to the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco; the union subsequently invited him to take part in developing a worldwide seismic early warning system. On his return home, the Italian authorities lifted the gagging injunctions against his predictions.
In 2011, six seismologists and a government official in LAquila responsible for evaluating the threat of natural disasters were charged with manslaughter, stemming from what the authorities say was a failure to warn the population before the deadly 2009 earthquake.Giuseppe Romano Gargarella ordered the members of the Great Risks commission to go on trial in L'Aquila. The judge said the defendants gave inexact, incomplete, and contradictory information about smaller tremors in L'Aquila six months before the earthquake on April 6, 2009. On 22 October 2012 it was reported that the judge had sentenced the seismologists to 6 years in prison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_L'Aquila_earthquake
SteveG
(3,109 posts)if they can fill those jobs on the commission. I doubt any reputable geologist or seismic scientist will accept such a position after this verdict.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)A prediction that was accidentally correct was made.
I suppose one should look for the silver lining. If it works one way, then it must work the other.
Any failed predicion is automatic grounds for prosecution, so whilst this precedent stands, go after the psychics, the astrologers and other flim-flam merchants.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The problem is it seems to be unreliable, i.e. to many FALSE reports. On the other hand, can be one way to make a prediction along with a comment that it may be false (Which is what the defendants did NOT say, Radon seems to be like prediction involving the Full Moon, it some times seems to be a factor, but other times not. Attempts to show no collation between increase in Radon (And the moon being full) have failed (i.e. some collation exist but that is all) but using the increase in Radon (and that the moon is full) has also failed. Both seems to be a factor but no one can determine how and why and if it is any more then what triggers an earthquake may also release radon in some occansions (or that the moon is full and thus nearest the earth. is just a more common feather that cause the Earthquake, when another feather would have done it anyway).
The problem seems to be that these sceintist did not beleive the evidence that the prediction was based for that evidence was NOT reliable enough for them. The problem was instead of saying that the scientific evidence did not support the prediction, they said the prediction was without ANY basis in science and thus no earthquake would occur. When one occurred as predicted, the scientists had no explanation why they had said none would occur. Thus the conviction. They had stepped beyound science themselves in saying no earthquake would occur. They would have been safe by saying that the evidence to support an earthquake is unreliable and should not be relied on. When asked if an earthquake would occur, they should have said one was possible but they could not support this prediction. If pressed, they should NEVER have said, none would occur.
Just a comment, that they is more here then Scientist disagreeing with themselves but the head of the department going out of his way to say no earthquake would occur instead of saying there was no reliable evidence that an earthquake would occur. Thus the problem is that the Scientists claimed what Science can NOT support, that a Earthquake prediction based on Radon could NOT occur.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...of a concrete floor slab and poor ventilation, than any amount of radon in conjunction with phases of the moon might be of pending doom.
Dogs also howl and chickens lay the same egg twice or some such bullshit.
AND HAS NO BASIS IN SCIENCE.
Science is REPEATABILITY. Repeat after me. "Repeatability!". As I alluded to in my previous post, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Acting on a prediction which is at best 10-20% accurate is worse than useless, four times out of five you've wasted the effort, people become blase and expenditure outweighs potential savings.
Is this idiot to be held liable for all the earthquakes that don't produce radon and/or happen at the time of the New Moon and he completely fails to predict?
Better than 75% accurate with less than a 25% false positive (they're not the same thing btw) and you can claim you have a working (and workable) system.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)There are people who call Economics a science and other who contest that standard, for repeatability has NOT always been possible in economics for the simple reason it is a study on on-going activities not parts that can be isolated to see if they are repeatable.
In other Sciences, the same problem raises its head, an inability to reduce complex systems to see if we have repeatability. In such cases science falls back on other standards (For example in evolution we can NOT repeat what happened in some distance past to see if what evolved then, will evolved now, furthermore evolution also depends on what existed at the start of the period in question, at times we can come close, for example the Brontosaurus type creatures and Elephants, both are large land animals, one a Dinosaur that ate Ferns and Conifers, the other a mammal that ate grasses and deciduous trees, close but not the same thing and thus not a exact repeat due to the difference in the food they ate AND what they evolved from).
Just a comment, that repeatable testing, while the "touchstone" point in Science, is NOT the only way science is developed. In the cases of earthquakes, we may end up with a series of tests if an adequate prediction theory comes about. Failing all the tests would show no earthquakes will occur, passing any of them will show an earthquake will occur. An increase in radon being released may end up as part of one such tests.
As to weather predictions, anything more then three days out is more a guess then a prediction, but it is done all the time. The reason is people often need to have an idea of the weather 5-7 days from today. To a degree we can make an educated guess, but the variables are so many once you go beyond three days, it is to many for even the fastest super computers. At that point most people are happy with 50% Accuracy, if such predictions are that good.
In many ways, the Trial Judges basically said it was improper for the Defendants to not only disagree with the person who made the prediction (and the court said such disagreement was Legal and not liable) and the Defendants could even say the predictions had no basis in fact (also protected speech) but once they said no earthquake WILL OCCUR, they were making a PREDICTIONS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE and people relied on those statements.
Remember that is what the court convicted them of, NOT for disagreeing with the person who made the prediction or for saying that the predictions had no basis in science, BUT going that extra step and PREDICTING none will occur. At that point the Defendants had gone from saying the predictions had no basis in science, to making a prediction of their own. A prediction that turned out to be false (i.e no earthquake would occur, when one did).
Now, the Defendants may get off, for the reason they made the prediction of no earthquakes was that many locals were upset about the prediction for an earthquake and were demanding action. It appears local politicians were the ones asking for the Defendants to said no chance of an earthquake because the local politicians were tied of hearing from people concerned about an earthquake. Thus why the Defendants made their prediction of no earthquake, based on no scientific evidence.
Notice BOTH sides in the debate made PREDICTIONS that are without SOLID Science behind them. Due ot the DEFENDANT'S PREDICTIONS, people stayed in their homes and suffered harm. If they had followed the Predictions of an Earthquake they could have stayed outside and minimize their losses. Thus the Decision of the Court, people suffered harm due to the PREDICTION of the Defendants, a PREDICTION without any scientific basis.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)The mush-brained are everywhere, it seems.
Bosonic
(3,746 posts)Senior members of an Italian government disaster assessment body resigned on Tuesday, a day after seven scientists and officials were convicted of manslaughter for not giving adequate warning of the deadly earthquake in the city of L'Aquila in 2009.
The head of the National Commission for the Forecast and Prevention of Major Risks, Luciano Maiani, former president Giuseppe Zamberletti and vice president Mauro Rosi said the convictions had made it impossible to continue their work.
In a statement, they said the situation created by the court's verdict was "incompatible with the smooth and efficient fulfillment of the commission's duties".
On Monday, the seven members of the Commission in 2009 were sentenced to six years in prison for manslaughter after they gave what prosecutors said were "incomplete, imprecise and contradictory" statements about the risk of a major earthquake.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/23/us-italy-earthquake-idUSBRE89M10Q20121023
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Well, the Enlightenment was a good idea at the time, but Western Civ is a wee bit tired of that, and now we just want to go back to blaming people instead of solving problems..."
attributed to: Too Many People In The World