United Methodist Church expected to split over gay marriage, fracturing the nation's third-largest

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Source: Washington Post

The United Methodist Church is expected to split into more than one denomination in an attempt to bring to a close a years-long and contentious fight over same-sex marriage.

The historic schism would divide the third-largest religious denomination in the United States.

Leaders of the church announced Friday they had agreed to spin off a “traditionalist Methodist” denomination, which would continue to oppose same-sex marriage and to refuse ordination to LGBT clergy, while allowing the remaining portion of the United Methodist Church to permit same-sex marriage and LGBT clergy for the first time in its history.

The plan would need to be approved in May at the denomination’s worldwide conference.



Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/united-methodist-church-is-expected-to-split-over-gay-marriage-fracturing-the-nations-third-largest-denomination/ar-BBYAufp?li=BBnbfcL

[Wellstone ruled]

1. Long time in coming.

[underpants]

2. Is the new one going to be called the Confederate Methodist Church

?

[yellowdogintexas]

12. Who knows? Considering that a large portion of the conservative

delegates who have voted on these issues at the last 5 General Conferences are from Africa, Phillipines and Latin America I kind of doubt it.

We get to keep United Methodist Church and they get to make up something new. For so long it looked like they were soiling the nest so that we would be the ones to leave and have to create a new denomination, instead it is going to be them.

Meanwhile, all congregations get to keep their property which is a really big deal. Church properties are actually owned by the Annual Conference in which the churches are located. This was a major reason individual congregations were not just packing their bags and leaving. Now that an official split is on the horizon, this is no longer an issue.

[jberryhill]

22. Wait, wait, wait....

1. They are letting them walk away with the property? How representative are the representatives to the Annual Conference? Are there instances where the representatives tend to skew right of the consensus of members of their congregation?

2. Regardless of how the property is titled, are the local congregations responsible for making sure their budget covers the cost of capital improvements, etc.? In other words, does money flow in two directions, and what happens if there is a shortfall?

3. What about facilities operated on a non-profit business basis. Are there things like schools, hospitals, and other facilities which may be part of, or separate from, places of worship per se?


The story says, "The agreement pledges $25 million to the new “traditionalist” denomination..." Just what does that cover?

[TexasTowelie]

26. Appearing today in

[underpants]

27. Okay. Thanks. But, you know what this means....

By splitting the denominations in half, they are going to get to the buffets even earlier!

My wife's Baptist preacher once actually started a sermon with "I'm going to keep this brief so we can beat the Methodists to the buffets"

[keithbvadu2]

3. The method of religion is oftentimes more important than the God of religion.

[murielm99]

4. It wouldn't be the first time.

They split over slavery, too.

[yellowdogintexas]

13. yes, split and reunited. There are old churches all over the South with cornerstones that say

"Methodist Episcopal Church South" . My home church in KY is one of them.

I think the church was built in 1842. I know it is the oldest church still standing in my home county.

[Freddie]

5. The ELCA faced this issue 10 years ago

Decided (after years of kicking it around) to allow each individual congregation to decide how they wanted to handle it. Wonder why the Methodists couldn’t handle it this way.
Pleased to note that when same-sex marriage became legal in PA that our church council voted unanimously to welcome all weddings in our church.

[yellowdogintexas]

14. we couldn't because of our episcopal structure plus a departing congregation would

have lost its property.It would revert to the Annual Conference which actually owns all the buildings and land of all the churches it contains. This new situation removes that from the equation since a new denomination is being formed. The UMC will most likely still have its conferences and jurisdictions and the new as yet unnamed denomination will set up its own system. We all get to keep our property. I don't even want to think about the vultures which would circle our church campus lusting after our acres of parking in a vibrant downtown area.

We have Districts, Annual Conferences, Jurisdictions and General Conference; these are organizational as well as geographical divisions. My home church in KY was in the Hopkinsville District of the Louisville Annual Conference of the Southeastern Jurisdiction; all are part of the General Conference. The churches are not standalone congregations as they are in many other denominations.

[Aristus]

6. I wonder what the pro-LGBT denomination is going to be called.

Last edited Sat Jan 4, 2020, 01:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Free Methodist is already taken.

[yellowdogintexas]

15. We will remain The United Methodist Church. The conservative denomination

gets to rename itself, which should be interesting. This new denomination will include the African churches and probably quite a large number from Latin America and the PHillipines, so international or world may be part of the name.

[Aristus]

23. I wonder if it will be something as simple as The Conservative Methodist Church.

They should just ditch the 'Methodist' altogether.

Ever since I became a member of the UMC, I've been proud of our relatively liberal doctrine. Any time I visited my grandparents, I went to their church, a Southern Baptist hellhole that felt like enemy territory.

[Kaleva]

7. Sometimes divorce is the only recourse.

[DURHAM D]

8. So I assume the "traditional" Methodist church will be called

the Southern Methodist church.

[yellowdogintexas]

16. This is not just Southern churches. The name will reflect the international aspect of the

conservative churches which will form the majority of its congregations. It is Africa, Latin America and the Phillipines whose delegates to General Conference have been the driving force behind defeating the proposed changes to the Book of Discipline.

[DURHAM D]

17. No problem. Southern Baptist Churches are not just in the south.

Why are they "Southern" Baptists? Because the Baptist church split over slavery.

[jberryhill]

21. I thought it was the Gilgameks

[spike jones]

9. Great, now there are going to be forty thousand and one versions of Christianity. n/t

[left-of-center2012]

10. B.S.

The writers of the plan called the division
“the best means to resolve our differences, allowing each part of the Church to remain true to its theological understanding,
while recognizing the dignity, equality, integrity, and respect of every person.”

[yellowdogintexas]

18. Well the remaining United Methodist Church will be doing exactly

that. If we didn't want to follow that exact premise, none of this would be happening

[azureblue]

11. let them keep splitting

The homophobes. (note there is not a single word in the Bible about lesbians)
The It's a sin to eat pork and shellfish
It is a sin to trim your beard
It is a sin to have a tattoo
It is a sin (no really) to enter a church if you wear glasses or contacts.
And if you read Leviticus, dozens more.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

19. And THIS, among other issues

is why people are leaving, not just churches, but religion in general. In droves. Everyday. That here, in 2020, religion is STILL mandating who is and who is not worthy of god's love and acceptance.

How pathetic.

Karl Marx was sooooooooooooooooo right.

[jberryhill]

20. I'm surprised at the low monetary figures

Does the UM Church itself, in general, own all of the real estate, or is the real estate itself owned by the congregation as a financial unit?

Because they are talking about a $25M one time payment, and that strikes me as an awfully low figure if all of the properties need to be transferred from one entity to the other.

I would imagine that the various congregations can account for what equity they have contributed to existing properties, but does anyone know where that number comes from and what it is specifically for?

[NutmegYankee]

24. Congregations own most property in main line Protestantism. nt

[jberryhill]

25. Methodists appear to differ on that

It would seem that regardless of how the property is titled, it is held in trust for the denomination:

https://www.umcna.org/062localchurchpropertyandthetrustclause

Specifically, ¶2503 in the Book of Discipline requires that all written instruments conveying property held or hereafter acquired for use as a place of worship or other church activities, except in conveyances that require property ownership to revert to the grantor if and when its use as a place of worship terminates, shall contain the following trust clause:

In trust, that said premises shall be used, kept, and maintained as a place of divine worship of the United Methodist ministry and members of The United Methodist Church; subject to the Discipline, usage, and ministerial appointments of said Church as from time to time authorized and declared by the General Conference and by the annual conference within whose bounds the said premises are situated. This provision is solely for the benefit of the grantee, and the grantor reserves no right or interest in said premises.

What happens if there is no trust clause in the written instrument of conveyance? The absence of the trust clause does not change the right or interest of the denomination in succeeding to the title of local church property or the obligation of the local church to hold the property in trust for the denomination. When the required trust clause is not included in the instrument of conveyance, there is an implied trust clause imposed by ¶2503.6 in the Book of Discipline. Secular courts have upheld the right of The United Methodist Church to succeed to the title of local church property.


The trust clause is required by The United Methodist Church. Title to local church property may be held in the name of the local church (as a corporation) or its board of trustees, but local church property is always held in trust for the denomination, with or without a trust clause.

[Marcuse]

28. The Untied Methodist Church