Scottish Leader Nicola Sturgeon Presses For Independence Vote
Source: DW
Scottish National Party leader Nicola Sturgeon has promised to put wheels into motion for a fresh referendum on independence from the UK. Her call for a transfer of powers was swiftly dismissed by Downing Street.
Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon on Friday said her devolved government would publish a "detailed democratic case" for a transfer of power from London to allow a fresh independence referendum in Scotland. Sturgeon said the strong showing for her party in the UK general election a day earlier underlined the need for Scotland to be given another chance to vote on the issue.
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson's pro-Brexit Conservative Party won a landslide victory on Thursday, clinching a clear majority nationwide. However, it lost seven of its 13 seats in Scotland. "This is not about asking Prime Minister Boris Johnson or any other Westminster politician for permission," Sturgeon said on Friday after it emerged that her party had won in 48 of the 59 Scottish constituencies.
"It is an assertion of the democratic right of the people of Scotland to determine their own future," she added. Addressing Johnson directly, she said: "You as the leader of a defeated party in Scotland have no right to stand in the way."...
Read more: https://www.dw.com/en/scottish-leader-nicola-sturgeon-presses-for-independence-vote/a-51664846
IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)DURHAM D
(32,610 posts)canetoad
(17,160 posts)And it's well south of the Scots/English border.
Funny aside - My auntie Mary (we were all born in Scotland) in her dotage, watched Braveheart twice a day in her nursing home. She knew it word for word.
DURHAM D
(32,610 posts)Edward I is my 21st Great Grandfather.
cab67
(2,993 posts)Among other things, it suggests a sexual relationship between William Wallace and the Princess of Wales, Isabella (who is never named in the film until the closing credits). That she was 8 years old when Wallace was executed didn't seem to matter.
There's also the lack of a bridge during their depiction of the Battle of Stirling Bridge.
Marginally related question - why is Edward Longhanks counted as Edward I and not Edward the Confessor or Edward the Martyr?
IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)I've seen Trumpster deplorables claim that Hadrian's wall worked so well at keeping out Scots that's why we need one at the US border.
Stallion
(6,474 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)They live on the Island of Great Britain. They are not English.
DURHAM D
(32,610 posts)It all worked out - Henry VIII behead my 12th or 13th Great Grandfather - took all of his property and a few generations later my poor ancestors migrated to the new world.
IronLionZion
(45,442 posts)I'm Indian so I could have beef with the English for different reasons. My grandparents thankfully decided to come see what's good in the New World
MarcA
(2,195 posts)johnson and the rest of the Brexit hypocrites have No standing in the matter.
Doodley
(9,091 posts)cstanleytech
(26,291 posts)loses the tax base from Scotland how well will the remaining bits of the UK be financially?
sandensea
(21,635 posts)But they'll have to fall back on their now old standby: more QE from the BofE.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Switzerland has a free trade agreement with the EU.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,857 posts)will split from the UK.
The real question is, will the North join the Republic of Ireland any time soon? I don't know enough about either country (although all four of my grandparents came from the Republic over 100 years ago) to make any sensible prediction here. I would personally love to see the island united, but I understand that there are many currents that I don't fully understand.
cab67
(2,993 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)Thats the way to stay in the EU and solve the border problem.
The GFA (Good Friday Agreement) is told to contain language that allows NI to decide either the U.K. or R of I.
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)Putin is clapping
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)and bigotry are his weapons of choice
paleotn
(17,916 posts)They will rejoin the union quickly as a symbolic, EU thumb in England's eye. A far better outcome for the Scottish economy than going down the Brexit rat hole, Putin's primary objective in the the British Isles. The big fight will be over North Sea oil and HMNB Clyde, home port for much of Britain's sub based, nuclear deterrent. Many Scots have wanted the nukes gone for a long, long time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-43975011
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Dump England off into oblivion for their short sightedness.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)appalachiablue
(41,132 posts)The Scots Guards - 20th Anniversary of Opening of Scottish Parliament - June 2019
roamer65
(36,745 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)It is time for Scotland to leave the U.K.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)unless you're a British citizen or an Irish, EU or Commonwealth citizen resident in the UK: https://fullfact.org/law/most-non-uk-citizens-cant-donate-uk-political-parties/
That hasn't stopped dark money being laundered into our system, of course, but I guess that's not something we could set up for you.
There are non-party groups that support the drive for Scottish independence you could support financially, though.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)It cannot exceed 500 pounds.
The SNP website coincides with your article. Second paragraph of your article reiterates the 500 pound limit.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)roamer65
(36,745 posts)I suspect he has done that for many others. Screw him. He will rue the day he pissed off Scotland. Mark my words.
You have friends on the other side of the pond.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)I think I'm the only "out" SNP member (joined a couple of years ago, been growingly sympathetic for a number of years having abandoned Labour back in the 1980s and been a floating voter since then) on DU at the moment. My wife's American, and I joined DU out of solidarity during the Obama years.
We have a struggle ahead - both in the UK as a whole, but uniquely in Scotland, where at least we potentially have light at the end of our tunnel. The last few days have seen people I never imagined start to look anew at independence, including some influential Scottish Labour politicians.
If you're interested, dig back in my journal (I just did out of curiosity to see how far back DU had archived my posts, and it goes back to 2015) and you'll find a rough timeline of some of the developments that have led us to where we are - and some extremely lively discussions at times, mainly in the UK Group, some of which now seem disturbingly prescient.
mitch96
(13,904 posts)I guess there are some conditions that have to be met. If the good of leaving out weighs the bad of leaving, more power to them... Oh, no shooting please.
m
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)But it's possibly not the only way independence could be achieved legally. Maggie Thatcher used to hold that if Scotland returned a majority of SNP MPs, that would be enough to secure independence. Times have changed since then (the SNP currently has 48 out of 59 Scottish MPs).
The SNP's current plan is to clear the way for a second referendum with the co-operation of the Westminster government, under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, which is what secured the first independence referendum. This is unlikely to be forthcoming any time soon, if at all, in which case we're likely to enter uncharted legal territory along the way, involving the Act of Union and later legislation. Andrew Tickell, one of Scotland's brighter legal brains and sympathetic to independence, feels that legal avenues offer no clear path forward if a Section 30 order isn't granted. The headline to the linked article is more categorical than he's prepared to be, but basically concerted political pressure is what he sees as the way forward in the absence of a Section 30 order. This may involve action in various courts, but it may end up offering more of a campaigning tool than an ultimate remedy.
Scotland has a great deal of goodwill in the EU, having undertaken a concerted campaign of quiet diplomacy since the 2014 independence referendum, which may help as the UK's negotiations unfold over the next few years. It's a far cry from the first independence referendum, when the threat of Scotland losing its place in the EU was persuasive for many people and the EU was generally hostile to the idea of Scottish independence, and the boot is now on the other foot, with various EU officials and politicians saying on the record that Scotland would be welcomed with open arms if it became independent and accession could happen very quickly. Whether that would be the best option for Scotland if it did gain independence is another question, as support for EU membership isn't universal even among independence supporters, so it might end up that an EFTA-type arrangement or whatever would suit it better, at least in the short to medium term.
The path to devolution which set up the Scottish Assembly (later the Scottish Parliament) was far from clear, too, and after some 20 years of wrangling it took some clever blindsiding of the UK government by Scottish politicians' recourse to international law courts and international political pressure (threats of legal action even) from the EU before it was granted. There are some very smart politicians and lawyers in the independence movement, so we'll have to wait to see what they can come up with in addition to popular pressure.
Polls since the Brexit referendum have shown that many in the UK aren't that bothered about the Union, whether it involves Scotland or Northern Ireland. That may change if Johnson sees it as a useful rallying cry/distraction from the troubles ahead in exiting the EU. It would be a tortuous argument given the government's repeated claims that Scotland's economic welfare is dependent on the rest of the UK (which I don't intend arguing in detail here as it gets very technical, but basically it's untrue), and many of Johnson's supporters may feel they don't want to "bail out" Scotland any more.
The last independence referendum was agreed at a time when independence was only polling in the high 20s percent, and the closeness of the final result gave David Cameron conniptions. Currently it's more like 50:50, even before last week's general election result, so that may have some bearing on whether the UK government feels it wants to risk going ahead with another referendum. On the other hand, there are Tory voters but precious few Tory MPs in Scotland, so Johnson may feel like it wouldn't be the end of the world for his and future Tory governments if independence happened.
Meanwhile, noises from Johnson et al. so far indicate that they intend to pare back, if not strip, the Scottish Government's powers, which is likely to inflame feelings even more.
Whatever happens, I'm bracing for a bumpy ride.
mitch96
(13,904 posts)"Whatever happens, I'm bracing for a bumpy ride."
Sounds par for the course in UK politics as of late.
m
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)I feel for my compatriots outside Scotland who get the bumpy ride without the, albeit faint at the moment, hope we have. They could decide to move to Scotland, of course (quite a few have).
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Quick entry into the Eurozone as well. With England out, it is in their interest to do it.
I cant wait for the day I can visit Scotland and have Scottish Republic euros in my hand to spend.
Do you think Scotland will be a republic after independence, Denzil?
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)though it's obviously better to have the option of joining than not.
Some independence supporters voted Leave, as did others in Scotland, so we might have to have a referendum after independence to figure out the way forward.
As I said above, an EFTA-style or similar arrangement, at least in the short to medium term, might be a better option as the new/reconstituted country and its economy and institutions bedded in, which would give most of the key advantages we'll lose with Brexit.
I don't know that early entry to the Eurozone would be possible or even desirable. The question of Scotland's currency after independence is a knotty one, and we don't have clear answers yet, though the option of adopting the pound on a temporary basis might be the simplest fallback, and there's nothing to stop that happening despite bluster from Unionists. Without a central bank currently, the options are limited, but that could change. The EU also sets criteria for the economies of countries adopting the euro, and it's not clear Scotland could meet them in the early years. Countries acceding to the EU are expected to commit to adopting the euro, but there are no sanctions if they don't, and some of those that have joined in the last couple of decades have never gone through with it.
The current SNP policy is to retain the Queen as head of state, similar to Canada etc. I think it's not considered a fight worth picking at the moment. As in the rest of the UK, once the current queen dies, I expect there to be a radical restructuring of arrangements for the royal family to downsize it and its financial support, if not its constitutional role. No successor will command the respect that Elizabeth does, and I think the younger generations of royals might prefer a more "normal" (but nevertheless obviously very privileged) lifestyle, perhaps on the model of other more egalitarian royal families in the nordic countries etc. Another referendum on founding a Scottish republic would probably be on the cards.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)One positive is that some of your banks are already used of printing currency, like the Bank of Scotland. You may be able to set up a Scottish Monetary Authority and let the banks handle the job of printed cash itself. That is the situation in Hong Kong.
If Johnson were smart, he would offer greatly expanded powers for Scotland. Powers to negotiate international treaties and complete power over taxation, for example. But Johnson isnt smart. He will overreact and try to suppress Scottish freedom.
Denzil_DC
(7,241 posts)It has its own judicial system, its own police and fire service, its own National Health Service (which pre-dates that in the rest of the UK) and its own educational system. It'll have its own national investment bank next year, so a central bank isn't an outlandish prospect.
We were promised so many things in the run-up to the first independence referendum, including the chance to "lead" the UK, and few of them survived the vote and the Smith Commission that followed it, so we're unlikely to buy anything Johnson promises even if he's rash enough to try. Far from it, we're in danger of having powers stripped from our parliament. I don't think he'd be stupid enough to try to abolish the Scottish Parliament outright, and there's political capital in choking off funding then trying to blame the Scottish government for the consequences.
The irony is that the debate around Scottish independence was incredibly extensive, even grown-up, compared to that which took place around Brexit. A White Paper was published, which was inevitably picked apart by the No campaign, many public meetings were held around the country over two years or so where the issues were debated, etc.
The Yes campaign's leaders were expected to have answers to all sorts of questions that couldn't possibly be resolved until after the vote and subsequent negotiations. All this with media that were 99% hostile to independence.
With Brexit, even at this late stage, we still don't know what the hell it is!
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)I was in Scotland during the referendum and in England during the Brexit vote. We certainly live in interesting times.
Xolodno
(6,395 posts)Brexit makes Scotland consider their own Brexit.