Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

[brooklynite]

Source: New York Times

Amazon said on Thursday that it was canceling plans to build a corporate campus in New York City. The company had planned to build a sprawling complex in Long Island City, Queens, in exchange for nearly $3 billion in state and city incentives.

But the deal had run into fierce opposition from local lawmakers who criticized providing subsidies to one of the world’s most valuable companies. Amazon said the deal would have created more than 25,000 jobs.



Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

---

Amazon Statement:

After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens. For Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive, collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.

We are disappointed to have reached this conclusion — we love New York, its incomparable dynamism, people, and culture — and particularly the community of Long Island City, where we have gotten to know so many optimistic, forward-leaning community leaders, small business owners, and residents. There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams.

We are deeply grateful to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and their staffs, who so enthusiastically and graciously invited us to build in New York City and supported us during the process. Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their efforts. The steadfast commitment and dedication that these leaders have demonstrated to the communities they represent inspired us from the very beginning and is one of the big reasons our decision was so difficult.

We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.

Thank you again to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and the many other community leaders and residents who welcomed our plans and supported us along the way. We hope to have future chances to collaborate as we continue to build our presence in New York over time.

[George II]

1. Lots of jobs that won't go to New Yorkers.

[apnu]

24. What jobs?

Amazon is a champion of automation. Bezos wanted tax cuts and other considerations from NY and was giving little to nothing in return. Plus he dangled these "jobs" trying to get around NY State labor laws.

Bezos is not a good fellow.

[cstanleytech]

46. Agreed, when a company expects or demands taxpayer money to bring *jobs* to an area I

become skeptical that the number of jobs will offset the cost.

[democratisphere]

81. Why are the wealthiest always looking for welfare?

[a kennedy]

100. I know......this is just so infuriating AND WRONG.

[GatoGordo]

150. Amazon will get their "welfare" in some other state

Someone will get the Amazon jobs. It won't be New York. It might not even be the United States.

Who is the winner in this scenario?

[democratisphere]

154. It appears Amazon will no longer build HQ2 anywhere.

They will be adding jobs at existing facilities across the US and Canada instead of building HQ2. GE has also just announced they are downsizing plans for their new headquarters in Boston. Must see something with the economy in the future.

[DrToast]

174. Bezos is a businessman

It's his job to get as good of a deal as he can for his company. It's our lawmakers responsibility to protect workers, not his.

[Snellius]

178. Why do companies that rail against socialism expect a communist state ...

to subsidize them and bail them out. Like Amazon they get huge tax breaks on taxes they don't even pay. Socialism may be the only way to keep real and fair American capitalism alive.

[Massacure]

195. Automation is not a bad thing.

Jobs which are automated free up labor that can be spent doing other things. It may hurt a group of workers in the short term, but it benefits society in the long term. I'd rather not live in a society where 150 million Americans work in the fields pulling weeds by hand and tilling the earth with hoes.

[Me.]

62. Another Problem With The 'Jobs'

more likely to attract outside people (that would push the people already there out) and there is a fear that what has happened in Seattle etc. would make the area unaffordable for middle-income people.

[KWR65]

69. Just like those 13k Foxconn jobs in WI that disappeared?

These megacorporations are playing the government for huge tax breaks with nothing in return. 50 years ago a manufacturing plant brought thousands of jobs. Today it is just a small office staff and robots that don't buy anything.

[a kennedy]

101. Yet they get billions or for sure millions of dollars.

This is just so wrong.

[LisaM]

75. I wish Seattle would have taken this tack a decade or so ago.

Amazon has ruined Seattle. Yes, they supposedly create jobs, but the net balance is wiped out by the completely unnecessary tax breaks they've received. Meanwhile, they've strained infrastructure, driven up rents, created a ghost town of empty storefronts, and fomented such a displacement problem that the homeless population has soared.

And they haven't learned anything from it. They want to go create this unique blight in other places.

Meanwhile, we have a population of people that won't shop in stores, want nothing but chain eateries, order their food through delivery services, favor the gig economy (which doesn't provide full time jobs or benefits or even guarantee a minimum wage) and don't attend in-person events. I went to a play last night, good show ("Uncle Vanya" ), beautiful setting (the ACT Theatre), good location (in the heart of downtown near transit) and cheap tickets ($40 and under), and the house was half full because people who come to cities to work at places like Amazon don't support the arts (other theatres are going mad trying to attract them). And you don't see Amazon on the list of supporters, either, while you do see Boeing, Bill and Melinda Gates (sometimes), Weyerhaeuser, Microsoft, and other local business heavyweights.

Good for New York and I don't wish any other city the "fortune" of landing them (please, Amazon, please stay away from Detroit).

I'm writing this from the POV of someone who's seen first-hand what Amazon has done to Seattle, and it's not pretty. And this isn't even getting into the way they treat employees in their warehouses - bad pay, poor conditions, and searching them every time they go in and out of work, NO THANKS, as a liberal, I cannot support anyone that creates those conditions for workers.

I do know people that have worked for Amazon (headquarters) and they've either been let go or left because they burned out.

[LiberalLovinLug]

89. I was disgusted the way Amazon used threats to squash the new tax to help the homeless in Seattle

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/amazon-seattle-repeal-head-tax-homelessness

Amazon Crushes a Small Tax That Would Have Helped the Homeless

Seattle quickly walked back a tax on major businesses that would have raised money for affordable housing after Amazon threatened to stop construction in the city.

........

The new legislation proposed the tax would be levied on businesses that have at least $20 million in annual taxable gross revenue. For those companies, the proposed tax applied to all of its Seattle employees at a rate of 26 cents per hour for 2019 and 2020, with the annual bill per employee capped at $275 per employee. The tax revenue would have gone towards building affordable housing and providing services for the homeless.

In May, Seattle’s nine-member City Council unanimously passed the head tax legislation and it was signed into law.

Less than a month later, the head tax legislation was repealed by a 7-2 vote after several businesses and corporations launched the “No Tax on Jobs” campaign throughout the city. Campaign leader Saul Spady, a local Seattle businessman, said the city government needed better policies to address homelessness. Part of the repeal push was an announcement by Amazon that the company would halt construction on an expansion that would have lead to an estimated 7,000 jobs, according to the Seattle Times. Another CityLab article, revealed that the campaign to repeal was largely funded by big corporations such as Starbucks and Amazon.

[LisaM]

102. There were some problems with that tax

but if Amazon and Starbucks didn't duck taxes to begin with, it wouldn't be an issue.

The fact is that homeless are being created in droves because affordable housing is being knocked down all over Seattle in favor of (fugly) soulless high-rises with luxury fittings. The new fancy apartments now have a vacancy rate of 25%. Hasn't really kept rents down, and it hasn't stopped developers, who apparently have the city's blessing, from fixing their sights on a lot of areas with historical significance (they have their eyes on areas close to the Pike Place Market and Belltown now, and are determined to go ahead with knocking down the city's oldest apartment building, where a bunch of people are already living affordably, so they'll likely be on the streets soon, too).

I beg of people, do not use Amazon. They should have stuck with their original name of "Relentless", because that is what they are.

[oldsoftie]

106. I tell my friends the same. Bezos wants to take over EVERYTHING. Far worse than Wal Mart

But everyone is so proud of their "Prime"!!!!

[LisaM]

111. I can't get my progressive friends to stop using it.

I've always boycotted them, but my boycotts are basically completely pointless. At least I can console myself that I'm not paying for someone to be locked in a boiling hot warehouse and searched on their way out of work.

[oldsoftie]

170. Its not pointless if there are a LOT of us out here

[GatoGordo]

151. Irony

I know a lot of my more progressive friends complain about Walmart, Best Buy, Target, Apple and the giant online retailers. And in the next breath, are online buying something from them.

[oldsoftie]

169. Yes! At least many of those other places actually employ locals.

[RobinA]

193. So Help Me Out Here

I go to three stores looking for what I want to try to support brick and mortar and NOBODY HAS IT. What’s my option? I can’t find things in stores I used to me able to get there and I know Amazon will have 100 versions of the thing. I know it’s a chicken and egg thing, but I’m out there NOW looking for photo paper that I can print on both sides. In that case I found a small business on the Internets to buy from, which is nice, but that isn’t always the case.

[oldsoftie]

203. I understand your point. I have used Amazon, but in a little different way.

I look up what I can't find and most times the Amazon item is also a business with their own website. So I order directly from them instead of thru Amazon.
And I have had one instance of showing a local store what I wanted & they ordered it for me. Thats only one time, but it worked.
Certainly there will be times when you've seen or heard of something that you'd really like & Amazon is really the only place you can find it.
But my friends are buying shit they could buy at 30 stores here in town. I was at one's house and she got FIVE boxes of stuff and it wa just like going to Target!!
The she throws out the cardboard.......

[Squinch]

136. I'm so glad they're not coming. LIC was home to my family's business for 2 generations, and

my work takes me there regularly. I know many don't think much of the area, but I would have hated to see it "Amazonified."

[melman]

138. Great post

Thanks for bringing some reality into this thread. Amazon has definitely ruined Seattle.

[LisaM]

149. Yes, it has. It's not a fun place to live anymore.

And all the housing they're building looks like it's based on blueprints from the old Soviet Bloc countries, it's so, so ugly and grim. People who've always lived in neighborhoods are fighting to keep them that way while tech workers pour in, force up rents, and rail at the old-timers about density.

[Zoonart]

2. Bad news.

The economy is contracting.

[former9thward]

66. No evidence of that.

Local opposition killed it.

[gldstwmn]

73. Actually there is evidence of it.

Retail sales were so bad, it's either suspect data or a recession warning
Retails sales plunged 1.2 percent in December, shocking economists who expected a 0.2 percent gain.
The report immediately raised new fears of recession, but economists said the report is also so negative against other more positive data, that it appears suspect.
Even so, economists are slashing fourth quarter GDP growth estimates, and also keeping a wary eye on jobless claims, which showed a slight increase for a third week in a row.
The drop in sales raised new concerns about the consumer, which accounts for more than two-thirds of the economy.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/retail-sales-were-so-bad-its-either-suspect-or-a-recession-warning.html

[former9thward]

82. Isn't funny how economists are "shocked" almost every month at economic statistics.

They rarely get it right. A one month drop in one statistic is not evidence of a contracting economy.

[gldstwmn]

85. Okay the economy is fine.

Except cash is as rare as a unicorn sighting, wages are stagnant and no one can afford housing. There are other signs too. Oh and 7 million people are 3 months behind on their car payments. But if you're doing well then everyone else must be too, right? Hey, good for you. Happy Valentine's Day.

[former9thward]

88. I gave you a heart.

I hope it cheers you up and you have a good year!

[gldstwmn]

90. XO and thank you. n/t

[donkeypoofed]

3. Why on earth was there resistance?!

Long Island City is going to regret that, even if they weren't the resisters, but they are going to pay for that. They're going to pay in lost potential jobs and tax revenue. What a stupid move.

[Renew Deal]

8. All of NY will regret it

Good luck attracting business to NY in the future.

[Squinch]

84. Poor New York. Now they'll never become a major city.

[Power 2 the People]

143. LOL

[watoos]

201. That deserves a heart

[Squinch]

202. Thank you!

[jberryhill]

10. What tax revenue?

It strikes me as odd when localities bend over backwards to provide tax breaks, and then try to sell a project based on the "tax revenue" it would generate.

The infrastructure improvements required for this to happen far oustripped any tax benefit. It was simply a subsidy that the city would pay to Amazon for the privilege of having the campus there. There was no benefit to be had.

[zipplewrath]

21. Secondary sources

The tax revenue comes from the 25,000 jobs. Not just their income taxes either, but also the sales taxes that those salaries are spent upon. There's also property taxes on the homes whose value increases. I'm not saying it is a balance, but that is the consideration that is often made.

[jberryhill]

45. Why not simply have the laws applied equally to all?

It is quite obvious that Amazon decided it did not need another location, since it is not as if they are going somewhere else instead of Long Island City.

I think NYC will survive without this welfare emperor.

[zipplewrath]

107. I don't defend the practice

This practice is not clear cut. There are certain situations in which it might make sense to provide seed money or other compensation to encourage a business to set up shop. JUST the potential tax revenue I suspect isn't it. However, if it starts an entire industry to form in the area, that can be a different story. Think of Silicon Valley at the start of the microchip age, or Detroit when the auto industry was forming.

The flip side is that those kinds of industries tend to locate based upon assets and infrastructure that already exist (Cheap power, transportation features, educated work force, etc.) If you have to pay someone to come in, you apparently don't have the assets to differentiate yourself from other areas. You're paying them to come, and you'll have to pay everyone else to come too.

Quite honestly, it doesn't seem like NYC really needs to be doing these things. If their taxes are too high, fix that. If their infrastructure needs expanding or updating, do that.

[jberryhill]

114. I was going to say...

The reason that William Shockley located his research company in Mountain View had nothing to do with tax incentives.

His mother was ill, and lived in Palo Alto.

So, what you need, is a program to attract sick parents of Nobel laureates.

[zipplewrath]

137. Well Stanford helped

It didn't hurt that Stanford was near by either.

[jberryhill]

140. Correct, and Caltech

But nobody needed to give Schockley incentives, or Fairchild, then HP, and so on....

Likewise Intel and Texas Instruments took advantage of arid climates conducive to semiconductor manufacturing, since it is significantly easier to run cleanrooms in arid places.

[zipplewrath]

142. Infrastructure

It's rarely just one thing. It's alot of related things. And it's the kind of things that local and state government should be focused on anyway. Like educated work forces, and clean air and water. Public Transportation. The arts.

[Honeycombe8]

184. Those big cos. hire locally, but also bring a core high-level workforce with them...

They won't have just newbies. The supervisors and other bosses who rose through the ranks at Amazon, would be transferred there.

The thinking is, to my understanding of hearing about the courting of big cos. in Texas when I lived there is: When a big company comes in, it hires a lot of locals (you get that in writing as part of the deal), so fewer of the locals are unemployed. (+$ for the state) Those unemployed then have money to buy products and services, maybe upgrade their housing. (+$ for the local area, and state) The big company brings in its experienced work force to some degree. (Ca-ching for the state & city...all those new employees need housing, transportation, and will spend on products and service. +$$$ for the city and state.)

So a big company brings with it a bucket of gold for the city and the state, in all sorts of ways. State and local sales taxes, state income taxes, increased economy because of sales of goods and services, improvement to the housing industry.

So the dealing, to my understanding, is to cut them a break on corporate taxes up front, to lure them there, but not so much that you don't benefit from them coming.

Of course NY doesn't need more big businesses, I guess. I don't know. But if you're a Dallas or other city, you would definitely want an Amazon there. Once you lure another big business, it lures more people to move there,and other businesses to open there or move there. It's a snowball effect.

[George II]

175. The "Three Billion Dollars" of reduced (not eliminated) taxes will be spread out....

....over a period of 25 years (some over 10 years, some as long as 25 years) We don't know the schedule of abatements, but assuming the abatements are evenly distributed over 25 years (probably not accurate), that's $120 million per year. Plus, some of that $3B is contingent upon Amazon realizing some pre-determined hiring objectives. If they don't meet those, they don't get the abatements.

Neither the State nor the City will be "paying" Amazon a cent, they'll be giving Amazon a reduction in their tax liability, which would be more than made up in other revenue increases. For example, if there ultimately wind up being 25,000 jobs at an average salary of $150,000, both the State and City will be receiving income taxes on $3.75B per year. I don't know what the tax rates are, but when I lived in the City the State tax was about 10% and the City tax was a little under 5%. That would be $375M to the State and $187M to the City each year, all for "giving away" $120M.

That's $560M revenue at a cost of $120M. Not a bad deal, eh?

Before anyone jumps on this, these are very rough estimates, more order of magnitude numbers.

[BeyondGeography]

55. Annual payroll of $2.5 billion to $4 billion would have generated $17 billion minimum

in total annual economic activity. You can quibble about the numbers and find lower estimates but to say there would have been no economic benefit to NYC is inane.

[jberryhill]

67. And the infrastrucutre improvements are all free!

Because there will be no need to do anything to accommodate the complex and its workers, who will float in by drone.

Incidentally, nobody changed any of the incentives they were offered, in the event you didn't notice that.

[BeyondGeography]

74. You have a curious view of "infrastructure"

As if all we’re talking about was toilets for Amazon employees. There was a lot more to it:

In addition to the 25,000 jobs that e-commerce giant Amazon has promised to bring to its future Long Island City headquarters, “the number of [local] people who are going to be put to work will be in the tens of thousands,” says Carlo Scissura, president and CEO of the New York Building Congress.

That includes designers, engineers, contractors and construction trades—and these jobs will likely last a while because, according to Scissura, the plan to site one of Amazon’s two new bases in Queens, announced Nov. 13, will be “a decade-long process.” In a joint statement, the state and city said that in 2019, Amazon will occupy up to 500,000 sq ft at One Court Square and will build 4 million sq ft of commercial space in Long Island City’s waterfront area over the next 10 years, with potential expansion up to 8 million sq ft over the next 15 years.

Amazon received about $1.5-billion in subsidies from New York, according to The Washington Post. The firm says it will donate land for a new school for about 600 students and a 3.5-acre public waterfront park, said Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) and New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio (D). Scissura expects the Amazon project will spur infrastructure beyond its waterfront site, including expedited construction of the BQX streetcar, a rail project planned between Astoria, Queens, and Red Hook, Brooklyn.

The AirTrain subway link to LaGuardia Airport may also get a boost. The Building Congress is co-chair of a coalition launched in October of about 20 airlines, unions, construction groups and other business and community stakeholders to push for the project.

Noting the airport’s $8-billion upgrade, “It’s essential that the development of AirTrain LGA be a part of that vision,” said Scissura. “Traffic congestion is crippling our commercial districts.” The coalition, called A Better Way to LGA, wants a project environmental impact statement completed by the fourth quarter of 2019.

https://www.enr.com/articles/45851-amazon-hq-is-set-to-boost-nyc-infrastructure-building

[jberryhill]

79. Yes, there was a lot more that was going to cost more than $17B

Schools don't build themselves on donated land.

[BeyondGeography]

86. So building new schools is bad now too?

[jberryhill]

96. Who was building a new school?

I must have missed something.

Who proposed to build a new school, what was it going to cost, and who was paying for it?

Also, can you tell me the date on which any of the incentives was revoked? Thanks in advance.

[BeyondGeography]

103. Amazon committed to donate land for a new school

It’s in the link I just posted. As for the rest, do your own homework.

[jberryhill]

104. It would be a more productive conversation if you would read what is written

"Schools don't build themselves on donated land."

Unless this was going to be a novel "outdoor school" where the children were to bring their own chairs and sit in a lot, then a school does not build itself, connect itself to utilities, and hire teachers, merely because there is a plot of land on which to do it.

Cities, remarkably, have a number of ways of acquiring land, which is the least of the difficulties in building a school.

I asked you "Who was building a new school?"

Drop me a note when you want to answer that question, and stop pretending you have.

[jberryhill]

118. And once you explain who was building it

I'd like to know who was going to operate it.

Schools cost money to operate - a lot of money. They are usually funded from property taxes. This school, of course, would be unable to fund itself by the property tax on the largest local business, because that would be foreclosed. It's not going to be funded by income taxes on the people who commute there to work.

Fortunately, however, property values would increase, and the local residents would simply pay higher taxes on the property they already own, out of the magic money that will rain from the sky on them.

But, of course, the point is that people who (a) already own property there and (b) don't work for Amazon, have an answer to their rising property taxes to fund the new things that Amazon won't (and which income taxes on people who don't live there also won't). Sell and move out, like the tumbleweed which always needs to be blown from areas like this.

[George II]

176. Yes, and the "$3 Billion" wasn't per year, it was the total over the course of 25 years.

[George II]

117. Tax revenues in the form of:

Corporate and personal Income Taxes
Payroll Taxes
Sales Taxes
Property Taxes

Not to mention the huge positive effect on local businesses, contributions to infrastructure improvements, etc.

Amazon wouldn't have been "given" anything, they just would have had their company tax liability reduced.

[jberryhill]

119. Property taxes on whom?

The people who already own property there?

[George II]

124. Property taxes on the land and improvements, property taxes on the equipment in the buildings....

...etc.

[jberryhill]

134. From the taxes they were not going to be paying?

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/11/13/new-york-amazon-incentives-billion/1986979002/

New York City, meanwhile, will provide business income-tax credits worth $897 million and a property-tax break worth $386 million over 25 years, according to a joint presentation by de Blasio and Gov. Andrew Cuomo.

This is just getting to be really weird.

"They were attracted by a property tax waiver and would donate land for a school!"

"And how would the school be funded?"

"With the property taxes!"

[George II]

155. You make it sound so simple. It's a lot more involved than that article in a local newspaper.

A few numbers (from that article):

There would be 25,000 jobs with an average salary of $150,000 = that's an annual payroll of $3.75B, for which New York State and New York City income taxes would be paid.

Some of the $3B in tax abatements and grants would have been spread over a period of 25 years, and ONLY if Amazon met agreed to job numbers, and those credits and grants would not be paid until AFTER the jobs were created.

If certain criteria were not met, the abatements and grants would not go into effect.

And this is just scratching the surface. So you see there's a lot more to this than a quick synopsis in a newspaper.

It would have been a GREAT deal for New York City and Queens.

[jberryhill]

172. Income taxes are not property taxes

You said "property taxes".

Schools are funded by property taxes.

I didn't think it was that difficult a question, since YOU brought up PROPERTY TAXES, to ask you where those property taxes were coming from.

But, instead, then you go off and talk about income taxes.

Yes, I understand all the "little people" were going be taxed on their income by the city and the state. But that doesn't build a school in Queens, now does it?

Go back to the PROPERTY TAXES which YOU brought up, and tell me where those were coming from.

[George II]

173. I previously mentioned these:

Corporate and personal Income Taxes
Payroll Taxes
Sales Taxes
Property Taxes

The income tax in the post you responded to here was just an example of the magnitude of some of the revenue the State and City would receive. I didn't think I had to go into detail on all of the tax revenue the State and City would receive (and I'm not sure if there are any State or City payroll taxes of any kind now) Since there were salaries involved in the article, it was easy to quantify them.

The agreement included abatement of SOME of the property taxes involved, not ALL of them. Without Amazon building this campus in Queens, there will be no immediate property improvement and no additional property tax as a result of increased assessment of the property and buildings. Despite the abatement of some of the taxes, there still will be payments some of those taxes. THAT will build a school in Queens,

As I originally said, the deal was a lot more involved than the few points covered in that article, and it's going to cost the State and City quite a bit in unrealized revenue.

[jberryhill]

177. How much is it going to cost the cities not chosen?

As I recall, there were a number of localities prostrating themselves for this. How will they survive?

[George II]

179. I'm sure New York City will survive, but the increased revenue would have helped quite a bit....

...I don't understand your point.

[jberryhill]

183. All those other places - they're doomed

Several other locations were considered and not chosen at all. How will they avoid ruin?

[George II]

185. Once again, WHAT IS YOUR POINT? No one said ANY city or state would be doomed...

...but the area in Queens being considered by Amazon is a relatively run down neighborhood of working people. Having an upscale development would have helped the economy of the neighborhood, city, and state.

Instead, due to pressure based not on facts but emotion and exaggeration, billions of dollars in revenue is lost. And that pressure didn't come from the people who live in and around the area where it would have been located.

[jberryhill]

186. Who revoked the deal?

What offer had been retracted and by whom in particular?

Can you at least point me to an answer to that question?

[George II]

187. Google is your friend.

[jberryhill]

188. Oh. You don't know that one either, eh?

The city of NY changed their mind? Who in particular?

[George II]

192. Why are you harassing me?

[George II]

194. Since you asked:

Link to tweet

[Maven]

20. I live in LIC and development was booming here long before Amazon announced.

LIC and New York will be fine. This is the biggest city in the US and we don't need to pay companies to locate here.

[doompatrol39]

27. Exactly...

....the corporate conglomerate superfans on here are acting like this is in the middle of nowhere Idaho and that now all these poor people are going to suffer. There is zero reason New York City should be shovelling money into Jeff Bezo's face, both because neither he nor his company need it but also because NYC is not hurting for jobs.

[3Hotdogs]

64. How many jobs would go to L.I.C. neighbors? Most will not qualify for the $100k jobs.

This area of Queens is mostly lower middle to lower income. Everyone else will commute.

People who don't live there get there by subway, Long Island Expressway (already dubbed the longest parking lot in the world) or B.Q.E. Expressway -- almost as bad, or 59th. St. Bridge.

[apnu]

29. This.

NYC will be fine.

I hear arguments like this about Chicago, LA and other major American metropolitan areas. Almost all of it is a form of corporate extortion. "Gimmie tax breaks and license to ignore local laws, or your economy will get it".

Cities with a diverse industry base will be fine. Cities dependent on one or two industries (Detroit) will struggle. NYC is too diverse to be worried at all about Amazon leaving because New Yorker said they won't kiss Bezos' feet.

[smirkymonkey]

198. +1000

[Me.]

60. Quite Right

The company who isn't going to pay a single tax dollar this year wants a billion /s dollar Valentine's kiss from the city.

[Squinch]

116. This. This thread of dire warnings about the dirth of jobs New York will face

without Amazon is kind of hilarious.

This would not have been a good thing. It's not a good fit. And it would have wrecked LIC. I'm glad they're not coming.

[3Hotdogs]

25. The "$bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.99 give away" was one objection.

[still_one]

63. 70% of the New Yorkers wanted it. However, there were enough state local politicans who oppossed it

It is as simple as they didn't want to hassle with those politicans who oppossed, and will proceed with campuses in Northern Virginia and Nashville where there is no opposition to it.

Amazon said the decision is final

[redstatebluegirl]

4. Some of my crazy friends say it is AOC's fault.

Why? Did she come out against the Amazon campus?

[BeyondGeography]

9. She opposed the tax giveaways and was worried about local impacts

A lot of people did. What’s less clear is how Amazon not coming will reduce housing costs and improve traffic. And the “giveaways” were just incentives. IOW, the coffers aren’t going to get $3 billion of fresh money now that the deal is off.

[brooklynite]

11. "Ocasio-Cortez takes on the Amazon fight in New York"

NEW YORK — Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is assuming a leadership role in efforts to combat Amazon’s plan to build a new headquarters in Queens, an initial test of the incoming House freshman's clout in her home city.

The 29-year-old progressive darling headlined a closed-press, standing-room-only meeting of activists in lower Manhattan on Monday, near the site of the Occupy Wall Street protests in Zuccotti Park. The meeting’s purpose, according to those who attended, was to strategize about how to kill Amazon’s deal to build a headquarters in Long Island City — a deal that proponents say would bring at least 25,000 well-paying jobs in exchange for roughly $3 billion in subsidies.

Ocasio-Cortez did not explicitly say she wanted the deal to die, according to two attendees. But she implied as much.

"Her message was mostly about, how is it possible we’re giving that much money to the the wealthiest corporation in the world, and how is it that our elected officials are expecting us to be quiet, and [how] that’s not going to be the case," said Maritza Silva-Farrell, executive director of ALIGN, an alliance of labor and community groups in New York.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/22/amazon-hq-2-new-york-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-1012546

[redstatebluegirl]

19. Oh wow, that will show up in ads against her and all Democrats in 2020.

[still_one]

71. No, it won't be all Democrats. Bill de Blasio and a lot of other Democrats were very much for it.

de Blasio is pissed now at Amazon for pulling out, saying you should have worked with those politicians opposed to it, but Amazon made a business decision that why should they deal with that hassle when there are states who willingly want it.

Senator Debbie Stabenow was just on Bloomberg saying Michigan would love to have Amazon come to their state.

While I agree that the republicans are going to try to broadbrush all Democrats as being "anti-business", most Democrats aren't, and they will be able to push back on that.

[redstatebluegirl]

80. The problem is we will have to push back on that and it costs ad money.

With AOC on record as being against these jobs, the ads write themselves for those who are against all of us. Plus the PACS will up their spending to go after all democrats as anti jobs and use this as a way to "prove" it.

AOC is working for nationwide coverage so we will live and die by that part of our party.

[still_one]

87. You have a point, and those local polticians who oppossed the deal are giving a press conference

right now bashing Amazon for pulling out. I am sure Amazon is looking at that reaction, and believing that justifies their decision to pull out of the deal.

[George II]

22. Yes, she was against it.

[thesquanderer]

23. AOC and Gillibrand were both on the wrong side of this one.

see:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-08/ocasio-cortez-praises-push-against-amazon-s-creeping-overreach

[3Hotdogs]

30. I don't know. Newark was a contender. My community borders Newark.

The amount of rush hour traffic that would have generated, was enough for me to be against the proposal in Newark.

[thesquanderer]

41. It gets back to the old argument about many Republicans voting against their own interests.

But I always thought that was a bad argument. One can vote for what you think is the greater good, even if it is not in your personal interest. Just as there are some billionaire who support more taxes on the wealthy.

[onetexan]

200. Yep, in this case i don't agree with AOC

She does not seem to understand how incentivizing works.
Her response that frames the case as rich-versus-poor is flat out wrong in this case. Note the points here (these were just discussed on Morning Joe btw):
- There isn't a $3B stash sitting in a vault somewhere that can be given out for education, and other social programs. The budget process determines what gets appropriated. The tax incentives are for the corporation as the company produces revenue in time.
There are 25K high-salaried jobs at stake here, and along with the establishment of the facilities will come other jobs - small businesses such as restaurants, dry cleaners, and other service establishments will pop up, and other jobs will be created as a result.

- The majority of African Americans and Latinos in AOC's district want Amazon to come to their city. AOC obviously isn't listening to them.

Bottom line AOC's stance is a bit short-sighted. But i forgive her given her inexperience.
Gillibrand, on the other hand, not so much. She should have known better.

[dhol82]

204. How certain are we about those high salary jobs?

25,000 people earning over $150,000 per annum seems a bit pie in the sky.
Not sure what kind of campus they were planning on but I thought it was going to be a lot of warehouse operations. The warehouse workers are at the $15/hr level. There will be more of them than management.
This just reeks of the Foxconn operation.

[onetexan]

205. typically at corporate headquarters it's white collar jobs

so yes, these are salaried jobs. This is the Northeast so salaries most likely are higher than other areas. I didn't find anything that said this was a facility meant to house warehousing operations.

[dhol82]

206. Still find it hard to believe that all 25,000 jobs are white collar

What the hell will all of them them be doing?

[onetexan]

207. LOL you obviously don't work for a corporation i gather

[dhol82]

209. True. 25,000 in one location? All making $150,000?

Interesting.
Now question even more why any corporation needs a tax break.

[3Hotdogs]

65. The rejection was based on appointment of some guy to a local community board.

His vote had the potential to quash the deal. It did, even without a vote.

[PoliticAverse]

5. Good. n/t

[Renew Deal]

7. For who?

[tinrobot]

72. For taxpayers footing the bill?

Amazon is one of the biggest companies on the planet. They don't need tax breaks just to open offices.

Maybe give the tax breaks to up and coming businesses who might compete with Amazon in some way. Or not. But giving tax breaks to Amazon is simply promoting their near-monopoly for online commerce.

[Renew Deal]

6. The people that opposed this lose nothing

But it sucks for everyone else. Good luck attracting business to NY in the future.

[PoliticAverse]

12. If New York is having trouble attracting business then it needs to make changes...

that would apply to all businesses not just one.

[thesquanderer]

26. New York attracted them just fine. A minority of anti-Amazon activists thwarted the plan. (n/t)

[PoliticAverse]

36. What kind of people would be against giving billions in welfare to a giant corporation? n/t

[thesquanderer]

44. People who can't see the forest for the trees.

Sure, you can take the position, "Amazon has lots of money, they don't need these incentives." But it was still better for New York to have Amazon here than not. And other states offer incentives as well. As it is, some states offered Amazon more incentives than New York did.

[PoliticAverse]

54. "But it was still better for New York to have Amazon here than not." - Proove it. n/t

[thesquanderer]

78. Look at the numbers

and see what you think.

https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/11/13/new-york-amazon-incentives-billion/1986979002/

[aggiesal]

70. Did you forget the sarcasm thingee? n/t

[crazycatlady]

94. NYC will be fine without Amazon

[doompatrol39]

18. Yeah, pretty soon New York City is going to be a wasteland...

[Renew Deal]

42. Watch what happens if finance pulls out

If someone decides to move Wall St to another state. It's not as far fetched as you think. Losing the UN would also be another significant blow. Losing either would be bad. Losing both would be close to catastrophic.

[still_one]

76. Finance is not going to pull out of NY. While those who oppossed the Amazon deal like to believe

they have that backing, 70% of New Yorkers wanted the Amazon deal. Depending on the impact of this decision, that might very well affect the political future of those who opposed it, though any effects won't be realized for a while

[sir pball]

190. As a NYer, it was a bad deal

A lot of people I know wanted it because it would be popular and high-profile, but all things considered it would have been meh at best. We're one of the top two cities in the world, we really don't need Amazon here. Better for a city that could use it more. We already have the NYSE, NASDAQ, and the UN...and they aren't asking for billions in "incentives".

[dhol82]

208. I know a small business owner about five blocks away from the property.

She is ecstatic that they are gone!
Her business would have been severely impacted in terms of rent and long term stability.
I am happy she will be able to continue her business.

[Squinch]

123. Yeah. Because that'll happen. That guy who decides these things might just pick up Wall

Street and move it to Idaho.

Hold me!

[sir pball]

191. Hey, it's just $28 trillion of stock, easy to move to Boise!

People don't understand the scale of "finance" here.

[sir pball]

189. You do realize that even Amazon is literal pennies to NYC?

Amazon market cap - 794,430,000,000
NYSE aggregate market cap - 28,528,761,000,000

As a resident, not even of LIC, they were trying to extort us like we were a failing Midwestern industrial town, not (arguably) the single most influential city on Earth.

Dumbasses.

[Squinch]

121. This is ridiculous. NY does not have any trouble attracting business. It has never had any

trouble attracting more business than it can handle. Since about 1650.

[oldsoftie]

171. Giving away the store doesnt pay off in the long run though. Tax breaks are great, to a point.

In Georgia, the reasonable incentives given to the entertainment industry HAVE paid off, because they didnt give NEAR what Amazon wanted.
And Hollywood brought in over 9 Billion in '17.

[wcast]

13. It is ridiculous that in America you have to bribe companies to build in your community.

Amazon is worth over 100 billion dollars. 3 billion in tax savings divided by the "estimated" 25000 potential employees is $120,000. The median Amazon worker makes a little more than $28,000 a year. That 3 billion is over 4 years salary if NY just gave it to the 25000 workers as a stipend.

Plus, who makes up the missing 3 billion? Regular tax payers. So, in essence, local taxpayers are paying taxes to pay for the salaries of local taxpayers. The whole system is corrupt. Look at what happened in Wisconsin with Foxconn.

[thesquanderer]

39. re: "3 billion in tax savings...who makes up the missing 3 billion" - It's not "missing."

The gist: "Tax savings" means Amazon wouldn't have to pay. But if they don't open in New York, they pay zero of those taxes anyway. They only get that 3 billion for doing things that ultimately bring more than 3 billion to the state. Having them not come into NY is a net loss for NY, regardless of that 3 billion.

The details: see https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/11/13/new-york-amazon-incentives-billion/1986979002/

[BeyondGeography]

152. Yup

The economic illiteracy in this thread is pretty appalling.

[George II]

115. It wasn't a "bribe".

[onetexan]

14. sorry New Yorkers, your loss. i'm a huge fan of Amazon

the company can always come down to Austin. It was one of the cities jockeying for the Amazon expansion. Amazon makes my life alot easier and i'm loving Prime. I don't have to run all over getting what i want, shipped free and delivered fairly quickly. Whenever we need something for the kiddo away at college, there's even an Amazon pickup location right there on campus so she doesn't have to worry about it getting stolen at her door.

[AJT]

32. They do need to be pushed for better working conditions and pay

in their wearhouses.

[onetexan]

199. Agree, Amazon could do better to support workers rights for their non-salaried employees

In this proposed second headquarters though, the 25K jobs are high-salaried employees. To my knowledge most white collar jobs are non-unionized.

[LisaM]

148. I live in Seattle, and I despise what Amazon has done here.

Don't get me started on package lockers, my apartment used to have a nice lobby and now it's full of lockers because the rich college kids who live here can't seem to set foot in a store (I saw two young women with Sephora boxes, and note, there is a mall with a Sephora in it not 200 yards away).

Seattle used to be a semi-affordable working class city, and now it's almost unbearable to live here. I wish I had the means to go somewhere else.

[inwiththenew]

15. That's about as much of "F You" as you can get in a press release

Without actually saying "Fuck You".

[beachbum bob]

16. hoping to see it located to chicago, great job New York in losing out on the income and revenue

[doompatrol39]

17. Every study that has been done on these tax giveaways...

...has shown that the municipalities/states/etc. that enact them lose money, not gain. I'm in NJ which has been shovelling cash down the throats of every corporation who comes sniffing around and we are in dire straits because of it.

NYC is not hurting for a jobs.

[TeamPooka]

28. Don't worry NY, maybe a billionaire will let you build them a stadium or something

[brooklynite]

31. UPDATE: Amazon will not re-open search for alternative locations

Link to tweet

[jberryhill]

37. Head Fake

[George II]

33. New Yorkers wanted this development. They're the ones getting hurt by this:

Link to tweet

[marybourg]

48. Interesting that none of the catagories

are “people who live in Queens” or “people who live in LIC”. I rode that 7 train every day for years and the LIRR branch that serves LIC, and I don’t see how either could have supported 25,000 more jobs without incredible infrastructure spending, which was not forthcoming.

[FreepFryer]

58. If they'd offered to rebuild the subways, they'd have gotten a deal but they didn't come to invest..

...they came to exploit.

[Renew Deal]

122. When did you last right the train in LIC?

[Squinch]

126. Yesterday. You?

[Renew Deal]

146. Maybe you mispoke

"I rode that 7 train every day for years and the LIRR branch that serves LIC"

[Squinch]

147. That wasn't my post. So no, I didn't misspeak. You did. But I did ride the train into LIC

yesterday.

How about you? When was the last time you were there?

Or are you just an "out of town hipster" (really? people talk like this?) weighing in on this?

[Squinch]

125. Seriously. Reading this thread, none of us who actually spend a lot of time in LIC sound like

we were happy they were coming.

[Renew Deal]

120. But out of town hipsters are worried about their subways being crowded

So we must listen to them

[eggplant]

34. I'm not sad at all.

We don't need the headache or the $3B tax bill.

[doompatrol39]

35. For those interested in actual studies instead of Amazon Cheerleading..

Both of these links have links to some really good studies that show why this process is a load of hot garbage and needs to stop. My state of New Jersey especially under Christie were the kings of these giveaways and incentives and now they are dipping into pensions and funding for important infrastructure and resources.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/03/business-tax-incentives-waste/518754/

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/6/27/how-corporate-tax-incentives-work-and-why-cities-spend-so-much-on-them

[DBoon]

108. finally, someone is providing facts

nt

[ZeroSomeBrains]

38. Good on New York Standing up to Amazon

No city should have to pay for the biggest company in the world to locate there. What I don't understand is why it would be better to give all this money to Amazon than say small businesses in NYC. Maybe if every city could show the fortitude to stand up to Amazon like NYC then they wouldn't be able to have cities grovel to them for the privilege to locate there. America shouldn't treat big companies like kings we all have to bend at the knee to.

[George II]

43. "New York" didn't stand up to them, both the Mayor and the Governor were 100% in favor of this.

Plus, they weren't paying Amazon to move to Queens, they were reducing their tax liability.

[ZeroSomeBrains]

50. The General Assembly Stood up to Them

And giving the most profitable company in the world a $2 billion tax break when thousands are homeless in NYC is an incredibly stupid idea. Not to mention all the people living on the edge of poverty who are without healthcare. You could do so many other more important things with that money. And Jeff Bezos now can't have his own private helipad which is also a big plus as well.

[LittleGirl]

40. Why give the most profitable company in the world

tax breaks? We must stop this nonsense because look what happens anyway. They can change their mind and yet the city/town has made infrastructure upgrades and gets nothing in return. I saw this in my own hometown and my old job that left a decade ago.

I would imagine it would be employed by robots anyway.
My spouse loves amazon but frankly, I don't think Amazon needs any tax breaks.

[FreepFryer]

49. Precisely. (n/t)

[FreepFryer]

47. Bye, Felicia. New York will survive without tapdancing for a measly megacorporate handout. (n/t)

[appalachiablue]

51. Good for NY, not lucky is Arlington, Va. $Billions going

to Amazon, instead of schools and infrastructure. Increased congestion for traffic that's already horrible, and higher costs for already unaffordable housing.

[FreepFryer]

53. Offering corporate tax shortfalls & ignoring Amazon's infrastructure demands is no square deal.

It's time people stood up to these heavy-handed and exploitative pro-corporate practices.

[onenote]

109. Billions from VA? No. More like $573 million in direct subsidies

and another $223 million in infrastructure spending that will benefit more than Amazon.

[appalachiablue]

144. A mere $573 Mill. Not enabling corporate welfare and greedheads.

Bezos bought 2 older, city townhouses in Kalorama, DC for $20+Mill, renovations include 25 bathrooms- says it all.

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/leisure/real-estate/news/a9234/jeff-bezos-house-washington-dc/

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10142052175

[onenote]

145. I take your post as an admision you were wrong in saying Virginia was giving Amazon "billions"

Thanks!

[FreepFryer]

156. LOL! So not the point, but thanks for playing one note, onenote! (n/t)

[onenote]

158. So you're saying that accuracy regarding dollars doesn't matter

That $573 million and "billions" are the same thing?

Because if that's the case, then I guess Trump is getting everything he asked for....

[FreepFryer]

159. Meh! Someone makes a point, u counter with millions v billions and ignore the point. Bad form n/t

[onenote]

160. Excuse me while I LMAO at your deflection.

[FreepFryer]

161. In response to my objection, your comment reads as pure projection. (n/t)

[onenote]

162. And from you, its just more deflection

Let me ask you a few questions: How hard would it have been for the poster to have said "millions" rather than "billions" and in so doing been factually accurate rather than engaging in hyperbole. Would the point have been less valid if was factually accurate?

Exaggeration is a losing strategy in a debate. Which is why we call out Trump every time he does it.

[FreepFryer]

163. Your patent refusal to address the issue at hand is obvious & lame. I'm not arguing 4 exaggeration.

Focus.

[onenote]

164. Well you're not arguing against exageration are you?

And the issue at hand is that spending $573 million (compared to the more than $1.5 billion that NY offered), plus spending $200 million plus on infrastructure investments, is a good deal for the part of Northern Virginia where Amazon will set up shop. I've lived in that area for 60 years and I've seen it up and down. Now it's down. With Amazon's arrival, I have no doubt that it will be up. There was a reason Maryland was prepared to offer quite literally billions and are not happy that Northern Virginia got the prize.

As for whether NY would have been better or worse -- I don't know that area but I do think that compared to what Virginia offered, NY went farther than they should have.

[FreepFryer]

165. Great. Thanks for getting to the issue, rather than dismissive avoidant hairsplitting. (n/t)

[onenote]

166. I don't think its hairsplitting

If Northern Virginia had, in fact, offered billions and nothing for infrastructure, as the post I addressed suggested, my take on the wisdom of Northern Virginia's offer would be different. The reason I think it is a good deal is precisely because it is not the deal that the post I was responding to claimed it to be.

[FreepFryer]

167. It's obvious you had no idea how dismissive your post read. (n/t)

[onenote]

168. True. I do tend to be dismissive of people who make up facts.

[FreepFryer]

181. Classic. (n/t)

[Massacure]

196. Your are mistaken.

One of Amazon's stated criteria was the ability to recruit talent, and to that end Virginia pledged $250 million to help Virginia Tech build a new campus near Amazon's and $375 million investment in Master Degree programs at George Mason University. Virginia also promised $300 million dollars in infrastructure spending.

Amazon was promised $550 million in subsidies, but it is paid out in portions between 2024 and 2030 and they need to have at least 25,000 people making an average of $150,000/yr in order to collect it.

Given Virginia's 5.75% tax on income above $17,000, they'll recoup their Amazon subsidy in under three years. Include the education and infrastructure spending, and Virginia will come out ahead after about ten years. Granted there is always a chance that something goes sideways, but this is very likely a good deal for Virginia.

[appalachiablue]

197. Post a link to all this info. for commenters. There have been

many articles here but nothing about academics and other 'improvements.'

The reality of increased traffic congestion, housing costs, and other negative impacts which Seattle and west coast tech centers have experienced remains.

City Journal, Autumn 2018. Seattle is under siege. Over the past five years, the Emerald City has seen an explosion of homelessness, crime, and addiction. In its 2017 point-in-time count of the homeless, King County social-services agency All Home found 11,643 people sleeping in tents, cars, and emergency shelters. Property crime has risen to a rate two and a half times higher than Los Angeles’s and four times higher than New York City’s. Cleanup crews pick up tens of thousands of dirty needles from city streets and parks every year.

https://www.city-journal.org/seattle-homelessness

[Javaman]

52. amazon was also getting strong push back from unions.

I have a feeling it has more to do with that than anything.

bezos has long been know to be very anti union.

fuck him.

[Blue_Tires]

56. They'd better not pull out of Virginia is all I'll say

[Sanity Claws]

57. A different article on Amazon's pullout

http://gothamist.com/2019/02/14/amazon_cancels_queens_campus.php

Here's an excerpt that might be of interest:
While several members of the City Council had opposed the deal, the body had no actual authority over the plan. State Senator Michael Gianaris, an Amazon critic who was chosen last month to lead a public authorities board with veto power over the deal, had said he was open to renegotiating the terms of Amazon's move, provided they didn't receive any tax breaks.

“Like a petulant child, Amazon insists on getting its way or takes its ball and leaves," Gainaris said in a statement to the Times. “The only thing that happened here is that a community that was going to be profoundly affected by their presence started asking questions.’"

Referencing Amazon's promise to continue growing its existing locations in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, Gianaris added, “Amazon admits they will grow their presence in New York without their promised subsidies. So what was all this really about?"

[FreepFryer]

59. Thank you for this link. (n/t)

[Maxheader]

61. Hell! Come on over to wichita kansaas...You can build a campus

all the way to colorado...no one will bother you..

[still_one]

77. That is exactly what Debbie Stabenow said in regard to her state of Michigan

[TexasBushwhacker]

68. How much were those 25K jobs going to pay?

What were the lowest paying jobs going to offer? Was it enough to maintain a middle class lifestyle in an area that, let's face, has a pretty high cost of living? Because if the lowest paying jobs weren't going to pay a living wage, why would NY want to throw $3 Billion away getting them? That's why I don't understand cities giving Walmart tax breaks. Most of their jobs are low paying.

[Oneironaut]

83. Imo, the opposition made a foolish mistake.

Too much of a “fight the machine” attitude is regressive. They succeeded in preventing more jobs and prosperity in New York City, not to mention the secondary positive effects the move would have on surrounding small businesses. Now, a future city might get these benefits instead.

[PatrickforO]

92. I hear you, but let me ask:

1. Where will these new workers be able to afford to live?
2. What will adding all these jobs (their HQ2 RFP claimed 50K new jobs) do to the transportation infrastructure?
3. Anytime you give tax and outright cash incentives to a company like Amazon, you are in essentially robbing the populace in your area of money needed now and in future for infrastructure projects and other services. Too many incentives is little more than a systemic transfer of money from public coffers into the bottom line profit of a big corporation. With all due respect, decades of this kind of thinking have created the current crisis levels of wealth inequity.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

110. An even bigger elephant in the room is where will existing citizens live....

as gentrification slowly takes hold and prices them out of existing housing.

Another point is that with an invasion of this size, in most cases existing local culture is lost as corporate culture replaces local culture. And, that's not to mention the fact that outlets like Amazon and Walmart have already forced the closing of millions of local stores and shops that have formed New York's and other town's precious culture.

Few seem willing to talk about those issues along with the point that Amazon has become far to large to act in America's interests. We need many more smaller companies, not megacorporations that see no revenue limits and that can gain enormous political power.

............

[Squinch]

128. This. There is money, and there is life. LIC is not hurting for money. A deal like this would

wreck the life in the area.

[PatrickforO]

91. From an economic development perspective, I have to agree with

the opposing lawmakers. Too many times, politicians get caught up in the glamor of attracting a huge 'win' like Amazon HQ.

But here's the thing: What Amazon calls 'collaborative relationship' actually means the city and state giving incentives hand over fist, and what is the return from Amazon beyond an unspecified number of new jobs paying an average of $X?

Too much in incentives for attraction spells out not enough tax revenue for needed local and statewide projects. These incentives actually do little more than help transfer money from public treasuries to the bottom line profits of corporations.

[Squinch]

127. And once a company of this size comes in, it has a stranglehold on the area. It can demand

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2019, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

anything it wants, because once it's in there, it squeezes everything else out and the area is left in a position where it would be ruined if the company left.

LIC and NYC are doing fine without Amazon.

[FreepFryer]

157. Correct, and this point has been made numerous times, but pro-corporate shills want us beholden (nt)

[brooklynite]

93. UPDATE: Response from Mayor De Blasio

"You have to be tough to make it in New York City. We gave Amazon the opportunity to be a good neighbor and do business in the greatest city in the world. Instead of working with the community, Amazon threw away that opportunity, We have the best talent in the world and every day we are growing a stronger and fairer economy for everyone. If Amazon can't recognize what that's worth, its competitors will.

[BeyondGeography]

153. Amazon has competitors?

[jalan48]

95. An oligarch flexes his muscle.

[muntrv]

97. They are missing out on a Foxconn in Wisconsin opportunity.

[crazytown]

98. Genuine Question Is there a proper cost benefit analysis somewhere?

Starting off with the narrow measure:

Projected Direct Taxation (-$3bn) - Direct Expenditure

then the indirect calculations?

[doompatrol39]

130. I posted some data and studies in response #35

Not sure if it's what you are looking for but it has examined these types of deals in the past.

[crazytown]

131. Thanks

[zentrum]

99. Yay! Us little people won!

[MicaelS]

105. Texas would have welcomed it with open arms.

Too bad Austin or Dallas did not get it.

[onenote]

112. Lot of ill-informed people on this thread

Many of the commenters believe that Amazon's decisions about where to open new headquarters was purely a money grab. But if that was the case, they would have chosen Maryland or New Jersey, each of which offered far, far more in the way of financial incentives to Amazon than New York.

And of the three locations that Amazon chose, NYC is the one that offered the most (more than twice what Virginia offered) but NYC is where they are dropping out.

My guess is that a few years from now, the cities that lost out on the Amazon HQ will not be celebrating that loss and will be doing what they can to get another corporate giant to relocate to their community.

[Bengus81]

113. Small town of Coffeyville,KS bought into that BS years and years ago...........

That was back when Amazon was big but not the huge powerhouse like today. Anyway they wanted to build a distribution center so Coffeyville bent over for them because it was going to bring a lot of jobs to a small town.

And it did,for eight or nine years then Amazon pulled up stakes to move north closer to KC Kansas. They shut it down,laid everyone off or told them they could move to near KC to keep their job and that was it.

It was a blow that about killed that small town off.

[doompatrol39]

182. And that's what makes these deals even more dangerous once they are in a particular area....

...is that they keep demanding more. I'm in New Jersey and various members of my family all work for big companies that are in the state. Each of those companies over the past 5 years or so have pulled the "Well, if we don't get a break on our already obscenely low to non-existent taxes then we might have no choice but to pick up and move to a more business friendly state." and gotten even more taxpayer money out of it.

And in each of those cases I know for a fact that there were ZERO plans or chances of any of those companies moving. But just the mere mention of it had the usual suspects backing up the cash trucks to feed these scumbags.

Each day this place depresses me more and more by seeing what people are willing to defend and spin and whatever else. Granted, the Amazon cheerleaders on here aren't as offensive to me as the "Don't go to a hotel room if you don't want to have sex" victim blamers, of late, but it's still pretty offensive.

[Hoyt]

129. Plenty of other localities see the benefit of Amazon moving there. I suspect NYC right this

minute is begging Amazon to reconsider, I know other localities are contacting them.

[doompatrol39]

133. Did anything change about the proposed deal? Or is this just a tantrum?

Honestly I don't remember hearing that anything at all changed about the terms of the deal.

Are they literally just pulling out because people dared say less than favorable things about them?

[jberryhill]

135. Yes, that is correct

I've asked a couple of times in this thread whether any aspect of the deal was revoked.

Crickets.

[Squinch]

139. They'd have wrecked the joint. I say good riddance.

[doompatrol39]

141. This is the equivalent of the Schulz presidential maneuvering....

His only purpose was to frighten Democrats into not being too liberal or being mean to rich people.

And this is Bezos doing the same exact thing.

Both are insanely wealthy men saying "Keep your progressive economic tendencies in check....OR ELSE!!!"

And sadly many on here are buying it hook line and sinker. Including Governor Cuomo who is literally threatening progressive dems over this.

[DonCoquixote]

180. yes

and the funny thing is, the only reason these guys from Seattle got rich is because the MIDDLE CLASS finally had enough to afford a nice thing, be it a computer with Microsoft, an item from Amazon, or a cup of coffee from Starbucks. Now, China and India are offering them the chance to be that docile, unionless middle class they wanted, and then they can find all their patents are taken as Asia clones and improves their shit.

We would have let you become rich assholes, but instead, you wanted to be super rich, and you wonder why the Liza Warrens and Alexandria Ocasio Cortezes are sharpening the guillotines. However, look to Dixie and the Heartland, where the preachers and good old boys are planning to make a culture where none of you are welcome at all.