Ocasio-Cortez Breaks With Pelosi in Key Early Vote for Democrats

[brooklynite]

Source: Bloomberg

Progressive incoming House Democrat Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez plans to lay down an early marker with party leaders on Congress’s first day by voting against a package of legislative rules because it contains an austerity provision demanded by centrists.

The rules measure, set for a vote on Thursday when the new Congress convenes, will reimpose a "pay as you go" requirement that would allow challenges to legislation that adds to the deficit. The rules were negotiated by likely House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to satisfy concerns among members of the new the 235-member majority representing more conservative areas of the country.

Ocasio-Cortez, a 29-year-old representative-elect from New York City, said on Twitter Wednesday that the system referred to as paygo "isn’t only bad economics," but is "also a dark political maneuver designed to hamstring progress on healthcare+other leg. We shouldn’t hinder ourselves from the start."

Her tweet came after California Democrat Ro Khanna said he will oppose the rules package due to paygo. Democratic leaders can lose as many 17 votes within their ranks and still pass the rules package, which is usually a mundane vote for House majorities. Many Democrats don’t like the paygo policy but are willing to support the overall rules package because they favor other provisions.

Read more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-02/ocasio-cortez-breaks-with-pelosi-in-key-early-vote-for-democrats

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. Ahh, another of my predictions comes true.

[TomCADem]

2. Disagree with AOC Re Debt Limit Provision

Threatening default in separate debt limit votes makes no sense. It did not work for Republicans and with Trump it just encourages him to threaten a default.

Better to deal with debt limit with the budget, rather than continue the GOP practice of voting on budget and debt limit separately, which was a stupid idea.

[George II]

5. Exactly, from my reading there is NO mention of "PayGo" or even anything close to that.

What the new rules address is the ridiculous practice of having to raise the debt ceiling and the bickering between Democrats and republicans every few months.

Isn't that what this current government shutdown is all about?

[TomCADem]

8. The mistake AOC is making us same as Republicans

The GOP thought a separate debt limit vote would give them two bites at the deficit apple. All it did was invite brinksmanship.

AOC probably assumes that having separate budget and debt limit votes means that you can ignore borrowing considerations during budget negotiations. This is wrong. Instead, you just give Republicans two chances to grand stand on deficit issues.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

80. Why cant we do healthcare 'off the budget" like bush did the first 6 years of

Iraq War? Why arent we doing the same thing? Just asking...sorry if off topic.

[TexasTowelie]

86. I think that the answer to that question

is that Democrats are better than that. If we adopt a healthcare program that is "off the budget" it will provide fodder for Republicans for decades.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

87. The gop is dead after mueller TT. Only way it survives conspiring w russia,

is if we play patty cake w Federal Crooks. Why do we care? They don't. Get it up and running, and pay for it next administration. That's why the gop eats our lunch. Bc they just do stuff, and they get theirs, rules be damned. We'll always finish last if we let the gop resurrect itself. Stamp out the gop...for good.

[TexasTowelie]

88. We can't know for a fact that Mueller can take down the entire GOP.

I wouldn't be opposed if he did, but even if it occurred conservatives (the worst would be financial hawks) would align themselves with a new party. Unfortunately, the Democrats squandered the opportunity to stamp out the GOP for good when we should have been mentioning GOP financial irresponsibility in every election since 2008. If that would have been our emphasis, then it is far more likely that we would have remained in power at both the state and federal levels. While it was necessary for the Democrats to move forward with new proposals, we declared victory prematurely and stopped attacking when it was still necessary.

Then there is the fact that two wrongs don't make a right. While some might rationalize that passing a health care program off budget is a moral issue, taking something without paying for it is also a moral issue. I can't support stealing from future generations even though I might personally benefit from such a program.

[Farmer-Rick]

3. We shouldn't hinder ourselves from the start

Yup.

She seems to see through the false deficit hawks for what they really are - Austerity kings. By imposing this rule, the RepubliCONS get to stop legislation if they have to borrow for it. How come that doesn't stop Traitor Trump's wall?

[TomCADem]

6. Separate Votes on Debt Limit Help Trump

This is incredibly stupid on AOC’s part. How have separate debt limit votes helped Democrats? Also, what is to keep Trump from holding the debt limit hostage by demanding his walk.

Can anyone explain AOC’s reasoning on why separate debt limit votes are a good thing?

[DeminPennswoods]

4. I predict this rule will come back to bite

conservaDems like Tim Ryan in the butt when they want help for their constituents due to the flailing manufacturing plants in their districts.

[TomCADem]

9. So AOC Will Vote With Republicans Against Rule?

Last edited Wed Jan 2, 2019, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

That is the big question.

[ProgLibDem]

7. Unfortunately, Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez did not study this rule in detail...

According to Congressman Pocan on the Thom Hartmann Show today, the Paygo rule can
be overridden if they want it. The problem, according to Pocan, is the PAYGO law (not the rule)
that needs addressing...

[Heartstrings]

18. My congressman, Mark Pocan...

Explained it well....

[AndJusticeForSome]

10. Why was PAYGO made an early priority?!?

Here we go again... smh

[Adrahil]

68. A new Congress always adopts rules.

It's not a "priority," it's just when rules are adopted.

[GulfCoast66]

77. Because the rules, all of them, must be first order of business.

The experienced leaders know that.

[Rory McRory Fitzrory]

11. We welcome new blood, but the firebrands MUST NOT OVERREACH!

[cab67]

43. agreed

[benld74]

12. Really don't understand the 29 yr old

Does she really think she knows the ins outs of Congress?

[PeeJ52]

14. Me neither...

I admire her moxie, but I think she needs to listen a bit first.

[angrychair]

17. Sorry I hate this line of reasoning

First, the insinuation is one of misogyny and reverse ageism.

Second, the current way of doing things has obviously not been working. Have we had ANY meaningful progress on climate change in years of “discussions” about it?

President Obama tried to enact rule changes and executive orders because congress would not act which trump has now reversed. So we are not only behind, we are going backwards.

It’s all just meetings and recommendations and no actual progress.

[George II]

25. So, any criticism of a woman is going to be considered misogyny? What about her criticisms....

....of Tammy Duckworth, Kirsten Gillibrand, and Nancy Pelosi? Not misogyny or reverse ageism?

Are we now in a world where anytime someone criticizes a woman it's based on misogyny and, if they're not the same age, it's ageism?

I certainly hope not.

[angrychair]

37. No, that's an oversimplification

The meme with AOC is “she is just young and uninformed” but do people say the same for freshman Congressman from NY Max Rose? He said as recently as this morning on MSNBC that he is not voting for Pelosi and supports Medicare for all but no breathless demands that he shut up and listen or people calling him “kid” despite only being 3 years older than AOC.

That’s my point of why it may not be misogyny but sure does look a lot like misogyny to me.

[GulfCoast66]

78. I would take that seriously...

Except the young and inexperienced is more often used by her strong supporters. At least in my admittedly not complete DU reading.

It is the go to reason anytime she makes a gaff.

Can’t have it both ways.

[Me.]

79. Actually There Was A Thread On Him

earlier in the day

[dem4decades]

33. So if you needed surgery would you want a seasoned veteran

Or someone on their first day?

[angrychair]

39. Again

The meme with AOC is “she is just young and uninformed” but do people say the same for freshman Congressman from NY Max Rose? He said as recently as this morning on MSNBC that he is not voting for Pelosi and supports Medicare for all but no breathless demands that he shut up and listen or people calling him “kid” despite only being 3 years older than AOC.

That’s my point of why it may not be misogyny but sure does look a lot like misogyny to me.

[dem4decades]

41. Why is it over never heard of him? Max Rose?

[angrychair]

45. Freshman House member from NY

Talks a lot of the same talk, walks the same walk. That you have never heard of him is a question to ask yourself. Why does the media and others feed BS criticism of people like Pelosi or AOC but doesn’t hold others like trump to the same critical standards?
Why do women get asked pointed, direct and challenging questions but men get a pass?

[dem4decades]

48. I like Pelosi. She's a seasoned leader, she had 28 years of experience.

When AOC was born. Pelosi will deal with AOC if she's a problem. I support our Democratic leadership.

[angrychair]

56. Not the point really

If we do not allow criticism or challenge our preconceptions than how do we know we are right? What AOC is doing is not only important but required of an active and engaged citizen.
Not saying Pelosi is doing a bad job or should not be elected speaker but no one is above the law and no one is above challenge or criticism.

[choie]

69. angrychair

there's no point... AOC is the new Bernie Sanders to many..just too progressive and vocal for many who want to keep the status quo.

[angrychair]

71. Frustrating

this does a great deal of disservice to the Party to not acknowledge a difference of opinion.
We give all this lip service about the women and POC that were elected in this past election BUT woe onto them uppity women and POC that don’t fall into line and do what they are told.
I know this may shock some but the majority of those elected were not sent to DC to tow the line. We wanted a revolt against trump and republicans and status quo. We got what we wanted.
Make no mistake, these are Democrats.
They just are not your mother’s Democrat.
They believe what Democrats believe in BUT they just don’t buy the “this is the way we have always done it” as a viable way to a solution anymore.

[Dream Girl]

81. AOC gets a lot more attention than him, that's why

[TexasTowelie]

63. I wonder why you make such a comparison?

Rose has a masters degree in philosophy and public policy. AOC has a BA in international relations.

Rose has military experience while AOC doesn't.

Rose has already held important positions of responsibility such as company commander in the Army, director of public engagement with the Brooklyn DA, and Chief of Staff at Brightpoint Health. AOC comparatively was a bartender, established a publishing company seeded with money from a business incubator, and has been involved in some educational endeavors.

Rose won a congressional district held by an incumbent Republican and in a district that leans Republican. Meanwhile, the congressional district for AOC has been reliably in Democratic column.

I think that the reason why Rose does not get as much attention is that 1) he has demonstrated leadership qualities and has more relevant experience than AOC and 2) he doesn't seek the attention that AOC has.

Stated simply, Rose is more qualified than AOC. It isn't misogynistic for people to recognize those differences.

[angrychair]

67. AOC was elected to the House just like him

There is no difference in their qualifications in that building: they are both freshman reps from NY that have the same belief systems. One is male. One is female. One is voting for Pelosi (AOC) the other is not.

Are you saying she didnt deserve to be elected? Because her constituents would disagree.
Why is the assumption that her disagreement with PayGo is some shortcoming on her part for being a “kid” (again only three yrs younger than Rose) or unlearned and not just simply a policy and philosophical difference of opinion on how to approach certain issues?

Her’s is a a shortcoming but his is “leadership”...got it.

[TexasTowelie]

72. I don't believe that most people would agree with you in stating that they have the

same qualifications. I think those qualifications will be readily apparent when they are in Congress. Rose is immensely more qualified than AOC and if I were an employer trying to fill a position of responsibility I know which one I would hire.

I also give more credence to what Rose has to say about health care than AOC because of his position as a Chief of Staff at a non-profit healthcare company.

As for the assumption that her disagreement with PayGo is some shortcoming on her part for being a “kid”--well her actions proved that point. Did she have to go on to Twitter to express her disagreement with PayGo or could she have made the same exact statement by simply voting on the measure in Congress? AOC made the choice to put herself front and center on the issue. Therefore, the public has the right to question her ideas and either laud or criticize those ideas. However, evaluating her political positions isn't misogyny just like an evaluation of Rose's political positions isn't misandry.

I also didn't say that AOC didn't deserve to be elected, so please don't put words in my mouth. That's for the voters in that district to decide. However, if AOC is too polarizing over the next two years then the voters in her district will have the opportunity to evaluate her effectiveness--the same as any other politician. If she continues to marginalize herself from the rest of the Democratic Party then the opportunities to achieve her goals and her chances to move into other leadership roles in Congress will be jeopardized.

[angrychair]

74. Got you

You monologue endlessly about AOC but continue to ignore the point that Rose is against Pelosi as speaker and said so as recently as this morning on MSNBC. Oh, and in a NYT article in November...and a couple weeks before that too.
So is he as right about that as he is about healthcare?

You gloss over the fact that she was elected no different than Rose. Yet she is spoken of in a different context and held to a different standard than any man also elected just like her.
Her opinions are not that controversial:
She supports Pelosi as speaker (Rose does not)
She supports action on climate change (a Democratic Party plank position)
She supports universal healthcare coverage (Democratic Party plank position and literally the same position as Rose)
She supports a living wage (literally the same position as Pelosi and Hilary Clinton)

It’s not about her as a person but that of a “upitty woman” not doing as she is told and learning her place. I find it amusing that some Democrats talk endlessly about all the women and POC that got elected as part of the revolution against trump and republicans but now that they are there they are being told to shut up and fall in line and do as they are told.

[TexasTowelie]

75. I find it amusing (and insulting) that you are trying to blame Democrats because some of us

question AOC's tactics and that we are misogynists and/or racists for doing so.

So what if Max Rose is against Pelosi becoming speaker? I disagree with him, but I doubt that most people are aware of Rose's positions because he chooses to maintain a lower social media profile than AOC.

The reason that AOC is getting so much attention (good or bad) is that she has set herself up to receive it. AOC is also unique among all the representatives in the House in that she is the only member of the DSA. It has nothing to do with misogyny or racism.

The only thing that AOC needs to do to show that she is against PayGo is to vote against the new rules and provide an explanation when asked. If she had not made a nationwide announcement on Twitter, then this entire thread wouldn't exist. If AOC doesn't want to get the attention (good and bad), then she should stop tweeting. She chooses to do so in order to rile her base and she isn't the first politician that has used that tactic.

[angrychair]

83. Hmmm...

Is she bad only because she chooses to talk about her opinions and expose things like Congressional luncheons with lobbyists on Twitter? So is it just Twitter? Does that apply to all twitter using politicians? I’m sure there is some Democratic leadership that would have hurt feelings about that.

Just admit your heartburn isn’t anything other than the association with Bernie. You already alluded to as much with the “DSA” comment. Point of fact she is a card carrying Democrat and was elected to Congress as a Democrat. Not an independent but a Democrat.
We should support all Democrats and encourage them to actually do the things that are part of our Party planks, not just do what they are told.

[TexasTowelie]

85. You venture further into ridiculous.

Nothing that Bernie or AOC has done (or maybe I should say "hasn't done&quot is going to give me heartburn.

You were the first person to mention misogyny in this thread and the last time I read the thread a couple of hours ago it looked like only one other reply was barking up the same tree. Perhaps it is because most of us can compare Max Reed's qualifications with AOC's qualifications and not deny the obvious? Examining their life experiences, it is apparent that Reed is far more qualified than AOC.

As far as AOC's tweets about luncheons with lobbyists, is that really news or is it a ploy to get attention? I believe that almost anyone with any knowledge of politics is already aware of AOC's "revelation" on Twitter. There are lobbyists on the left and on the right, but AOC must hold a lot of contempt for Congress if she actually believes that anyone's vote is going to be swayed because a lobbyist bought them lunch or dinner. However, since it was important enough for AOC to tweet about it, maybe AOC can propose new legislation where all members of Congress must eat at the Congressional cafeteria and sit in their assigned seats because of the big bad lobbyists? Yes, that is a silly question, but it's not any sillier than her tweets about dining with lobbyists.

And why don't you just admit your heartburn isn't about anything other than AOC's association with Bernie? Or did you just want to take shots at Max Reed because he was supported by the DCCC? (see how quickly your argument can be flipped around?) AOC proudly claims her DSA affiliation so it's absolutely fair to mention that in any discussion about her politics.

As far as Twitter is concerned, I think that it would do a lot of people a lot of good if they stopped using it. This country was able to get by without it for more than two centuries. I do give some credence to congressional leaders going on Twitter to reiterate the Democratic Party's position on issues. However, I'm not impressed by "look at me" tweets which is why I've never posted anything in the seven years that I've had a Twitter account.

BTW, Lyndon LaRouche was also a Democrat and I'm proud to state that I opposed him repeatedly. While I'm not opposed to AOC, it isn't a sin to oppose another Democrat if their actions are detrimental to the party or if they have a negative personal impact on my life. While I want Democrats to be in charge, I don't take loyalty oaths to any politician.

[angrychair]

90. First

It’s Max Rose, not Reed.

Second, you keep implying she isn’t qualified but that isnt true no matter how many times you say it or try as you do to discredit her. She ran a rock solid campaign, she won the primary by over 14 points and won in the general by 64 points. She won those races despite being outspent by millions of dollars. for all that hard work she is now congressperson Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
Yes, she primaried a fellow Democrat but being an incumbent should never mean it’s your race automatically and the voters in their district obviously felt the same way because she won by double digits. If Crowley has been doing the job they wanted than he would have won. He didn’t. They obviously wanted a different approach. She is doing exactly what they want her to do.

The people at that lunch she talked about was something I didn’t realize. They were wall street bankers, not pro-Dem lobbyists. Sorry, having such a dismissive attitude to the influence of lobby money on congress is disheartening. Your dismissive attitude sounds a lot like mitt Romney’s “corporation are people my friend” comment.
We should not just accept lobbyists dumping millions of dollars into our elected officials pockets and PACs as ok or normal. I don’t get that kind of access to members of Congress. You can if you dump enough money in their pockets and that is inherently wrong and antithetical to why we elect them.
The perspective you expressed is about as cold and jaded a view of the political process as I’ve ever read from a Democrat in my life.

For the record, I live literally on the other side of the country from NY and am not particularly an AOC supporter or detractor. I admire the effort and success she has had so far and I’m very interested in seeing where it goes.

In the end dwelling on personalities is not productive. Hopefully AOC is a positive force of change. At the very least she is drawing attention to very serious issues that desperately needs attention and resolution.

[TexasTowelie]

91. Thanks for correcting me on the name of the Congressman.

I'm not from New York and until today I had never heard of him. I do hope that AOC will be a positive force for change, but I'm not impressed with her at this point and I expect that she will be used by the GOP as a weapon against the Democratic Party in the future. We'll see whether if her election was a fluke or the real thing in a couple of years.

I won't thank you for the personal attack about my attitude sounding like Mitt Romney. That was completely unnecessary and it reflects on you instead of me.

Toodles.

[angrychair]

92. At the end of the day we are all Democrats

I apologize for the Romney comment. Should have left it out.

AOC hasn’t even had a day in office yet. We shall see but if AOC can get climate change or healthcare or income inequality front and center and on the docket is good for all of us.

We can agree to disagree but we don’t have to be disagreeable. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion on policy or approach.

May Democrats control congress and republicans wither and die on the vine as a political party.

[TexasTowelie]

93. Thank you for the apology.

I'm willing to discuss politics with anyone, but I try my best to avoid personal attacks. Since none of us never knows what is happening with other people on the Internet, I wouldn't want to trigger someone to doing something that is completely irrational or desperate.

I'm also trying to keep an open mind about AOC. I hope that her intentions are good and she is an effective representative.

I doubt that I'll ever see the GOP die out since I live with my Republican brother. I'll settle for keeping them subdued instead.

[George II]

65. Max Rose has been an understated Representative-elect, and doesn't take on Democrats....

....every chance he gets nor does he do it daily on twitter. He's had three tweets since December 28.

He does his advocacy for HIS constituents in the quiet of face to face discussions.

[angrychair]

70. He was literally on MSNBC this morning

Said he would not vote for Pelosi and talked about other things like Medicare for all like coverage.

Literally lots of articles about:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/11/17/ny-congressman-elect-reaffirms-he-wont-back-pelosi/amp/

He has said it from the beginning.

AOC was getting criticism from the beginning, unrelenting criticism: insinuating she was ignorant even stupid, didn’t deserve to be elected and is somehow against Democrats.

Men saying the same thing on live TV and in the print press barely get a mention and many have no idea who they are.
Sorry, not sure how two freshman reps from NY could have possibly be treated differently given the man holds more extreme positions than the women yet it would be understandable if someone presumed AOC was a right wing plant given the amount of press and animosity stired up about AOC actions.

[flibbitygiblets]

46. Surgeons train under other surgeons, they don't just get turned loose in the operating theater day 1

Eventually they graduate to being the "lead" but still have veterans oversee them until they have a proven track record.

I get the point you were trying to make though.

[dem4decades]

50. So would the new surgeon argue with the "lead" surgeon on their

First day? Or respect their experience?

[flibbitygiblets]

54. Doesn't matter, it's a inept analogy.

OC was elected, among other reasons, because she challenges the status quo. She's doing what she was elected to do. She's not going to be perfect out of the gate. Still I think she's obliged to question and challenge. Just waving a white flag and doing as she's told, even by those who are her leaders, is a good thing,

Furthermore, I think a lot of people here are concerned that reps like OC will create party disunity, which of course is possible, but have some faith in Pelosi. She's excellent at bringing people around when it matters. We wouldn't have the ACA without her.

[zipplewrath]

101. About 3 -5 years out

My usual rule is, barring other considerations, I want a surgeon that's about 3 - 5 years out of surgical residency. It means they have the most recent training, and the experience to expertly apply it.

I'm not as hard over on Paygo as AOC, but it is mostly nostalgia on the part of the democrats. It was used effectively during the Clinton administration during a rising economy and when they were able to raise some taxes and fees. They also had something of a cooperative GOP on the concept back then. It is a different world now and I don't really feel that until we "correct" the huge tax cuts passed in the last 2 years, that Paygo is the right move, right now.

That said, the reality is that I don't think we're going to see alot of legislation getting past the senate, much less signed by the White House in the next two years so the point may basically be theoretical more than anything else.

[shanny]

102. the seasoned veterans have been doing so well...

[brush]

34. I asked in on an earlier thread this week, why is she always in disputes or...

challenges with other Dems? She has to study PayGo more closely.

Looks like she's going to be a continuing problem.

[angrychair]

42. Why do you ask it of just women?

The meme with AOC is “she is just young and uninformed” but do people say the same for freshman Congressman from NY Max Rose? He said as recently as this morning on MSNBC that he is not voting for Pelosi and supports Medicare for all but no breathless demands that he shut up and listen or people calling him “kid” despite only being 3 years older than AOC.

Did you post about him or ask the same questions of him? He is from NY too. Is on TV too. Don’t hear as many questions about his public stances as we do AOC...hmmmm...wonder what is different...

That’s my point of why it may not be misogyny but sure does look a lot like misogyny to me.

[brush]

47. If it was a new, male Rep. already squaring off against a DEMOCRATIC...

speaker I'd be asking the same thing. You do realize she campaigned against several other Dems during the primaries, right? And is rumored to be preparing to primary Hakeem Jeffries in 2020.

Going against the Speaker as one of her first moves may not be the wisest way to begin her term. And isn't PayGo the law?

She needs to consult with Rep. Pocan who can explain to her how to get around PayGo. It might be best to learn the ends and outs of Congress first.

[angrychair]

53. Again, why are you reserving your criticism for just her?

I just gave you a white male freshman Democratic representative from NY, Max Rose, that is NOT voting for Pelosi and is pro Medicare for all yet do you feel the need to mansplain to him about how he needs someone to help him understand how it works?
Why would you not give AOC the benefit of the doubt that she does understand PayGo and just has both a policy and philosophical difference on how it will works?
The default is she needs someone to explain it to her like she isn’t smart enough to figure it out.

Why shouldn’t she primary a Democrat? Should we just hand over lifetime appointments to Dems then? Why even hold primaries if incumbents are running. Just automatically make them the nominee. Right?

[brush]

60. You sure you're responding to the right poster? I said nothing about Rose...

but I did say if it was a male, first-term rep squaring off against the Speaker, from his own party, I would criticize him as well. If that's the case with Rose, ok. The OP was on AOC going against Pelosi though, not Rose unless I missed that part.

Criticism of a woman is not automatically man-splaining or misogyny. I honestly feel now is time to unity as a party to get things done effectively now that we've won the House.

First Pelosi had to fight off the #FiveWhiteGuys, then the Problem Solvers Caucus and now freshmen Dems—give us a break. It's hard enough fighting trump and the repugs and now we have in-fighting from some who might need to get better informed on PayGo.

Please! Below is a tweet from Rep. Pocan on PayGo (it is the law but can be gotten around)
.@RepJayapal and I have been concerned about #PAYGO for months, and have had numerous conversations with Rules Chairman @RepMcGovern and House leadership about these concerns. We all agree that the real problem with #PAYGO exists in the statute that requires it.

[flibbitygiblets]

49. but Max doesn't have PMS so, you know, he can be trusted!

and yes I am being insanely sarcastic. Your point may be lost on some, but many of us see it and agree wholeheartedly. Different rules for women, especially women with strong personalities.

In my career I used to lie and say I was at least 7 years older so people wouldn't give me the old "you're young, what do you know" BS. The saddest part is, I'd usually hear it from other women.

[QC]

57. Plus she won't stay off my goddam grass! n/t

[PeeJ52]

13. Paygo is great...

If there is not enough money to pay for a desired piece of legislation, just tack on an extra tax to those that have recently been given a huge tax break and can best afford it to pay for it. See.. Pay GO... it's easy...

[Voltaire2]

28. Yeah right. Never applies to military

spending, tax cuts, or anything Republicans like to give to their pals. Only applies to legislation that would benefit all of us.

[ancianita]

15. I wonder if she and Pelosi could have a sit-down. It could help them both in the long run.

[ProfessorPlum]

16. pay as you go is bullshit

and is never applied to tax cuts for the rich, wars, or anything Republican.

She is right, it is also bad economics. We need more bottom-up spending. and why should Democrats not be able to wield the power of the purse when we are in control? you know that the GOP is just going to go on a wild spending spree if they ever get back in power, as they always do.

[LiberalLovinLug]

19. Exactly

We've all seen this movie before, more than one time. Democrats come in and immediately cut their noses off to spite the House that is no more. After years of Republicans using the loose rules to get whatever they want, now will put limits on themselves in a grand show of ethics, proving how much more honorable they are, if anyone notices.

Then...after a number of years of failing to find funding for new progressive policies, perhaps concerning health care, because of the restrictive rules they put on themselves, Republicans will take back the House, and first thing first, reverse the rules again, and go on another spending spree.

[George II]

22. Fine, that makes sense, but it appears that the rules changes do NOT include it!

[KPN]

35. I agree, though i'm a bit confused about

“Pay go” in the rules changes i’ve read about, I.e., I didn’t see anything in them about pay-go.

I also think this is probably nothing more than a big deal about nothing. That is, people objecting to AOC “laying down a marker” because, well, it’s AOC — you know, “the young inexperienced and disrespectful upstart” (at least according to some). Her “marker” has no measurable effect. But I think I like it — because she’ s basically right and not afraid to speak up.

[colsohlibgal]

20. I Am With AOC

Republicans spend like your drunk Uncle when in power then become deficit hawks when out of power. We have to quit acting like the red headed step child of the Republicans

The tell will come if the Dems ever control all branches of Government.

[George II]

23. Even though the rule change she's complaining about isn't in the new rules?

[Gore1FL]

26. The article is incorrect?

It says:

The rules measure, set for a vote on Thursday when the new Congress convenes, will reimpose a "pay as you go" requirement that would allow challenges to legislation that adds to the deficit. The rules were negotiated by likely House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to satisfy concerns among members of the new the 235-member majority representing more conservative areas of the country.

[George II]

30. That writer isn't quoting the rules, but it's his interpretation of the rules....

The article also says this:

"House Rules Chairman Jim McGovern of Massachusetts said there had been "a lot of misunderstanding" over the proposed rules."

And this:

"We must replace CUTGO to allow Democrats to designate appropriate offsets (including revenue increases)"

Just because someone reporting on the rules package calls it "PayGo" doesn't mean that's included in the rules.

[More_Cowbell]

44. It's in there

Links in my post 36

[KPN]

40. Me too having seen an update on the "rules changes." It

is in there.

Democrats — s*** or get off the pot.

[elmac]

21. pay as you go can be written out of a bill and would not go into effect with that bill

but is a pain to include that in each bill so pay as you go needs to end.

[DoctorJoJo]

24. I'm Already Tired of Seeing/Hearing From AOC!

I'm glad she won her race and wish her all the best, but she needs to shut-up and learn her new job, instead of running her mouth every 15 minutes, or she will be looking for a new job in 2020!

[flibbitygiblets]

51. Yes indeed, STFU little lady, whoever do you think you are, being seen and heard like that???

[Kaleva]

52. One wonders then why you read and comment on posts about her.

Use the trash by keyword function which is available to all members. You'll be much happier freeing yourself from the servitude AOC has imposed on you.

[Voltaire2]

27. She's right about this issue too.

Austerity is horseshit. It is a cudgel used to beat down programs that help people.

[jalan48]

29. What's the point of pay as you go? This sounds like something Republicans would support.

[harun]

99. It let's Conservative Democrats point to it in their districts and say how "fiscally conservative"

they are.

Translation, it is BS.

[marylandblue]

31. PAYGO makes perfect sense

If you want a benefit, you have to pay for it. Without PAYGO, we can continue pretending that tax policy and spending policy have nothing to do with each other. Republicans have been pretending that you can have tax cuts and increasing spending forever while campaining against deficits.

[zentrum]

32. She's right.

It's a back door way to start underfunding SS and Medicare.

Pay attention to the fact that it was created "to please" conservative parts of the country.

Such voters don't understand the real function of Government and always want to kill it off. Then, we ordinary people will have nothing---though we'll still pay for everything.

[More_Cowbell]

36. Why are people here saying that there's no Paygo rule in the proposed rules?

Even if all of the coverage doesn't convince anyone, it's right there in the proposed rules. See page 6.

https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20181231/116-HRes6-SxS.pdf

Or on page 11 of the summary of the proposed rules.

https://democrats-rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/documents/115/Reports/Restoring%20Congress.pdf

[George II]

58. Those aren't the actual rules, those are both essentially executive summaries of the rules.

The "Paygo" section of the first document refers to subsection (ee) "with changes". Neither contains the actual text of the rules.

I agree that the term "Paygo" is included in this summary (and possibly the actual rules) but it's not the same "Paygo" that are being referred to.

As noted in the OP article, "House Rules Chairman Jim McGovern of Massachusetts said there had been "a lot of misunderstanding" over the proposed rules." This provision can be waived for some spending increases and also calls for revenue increases to pay for spending increases, not just cuts elsewhere.

One may consider it a hybrid "Paygo" that in many ways is completely different from the one that used to be in place.

Unfortunately none of us have seen the actual rules, just executive summaries and interpretations by various people, including members of Congress. We don't know all the details of the proposed rules.

[Gore1FL]

59. Above in pst 23 you specifically contended they were not in the new rules

Now you say "Unfortunately none of us have seen the actual rules."

I'm not trying to be a dick, but how do these two assertions co-exist.

[George II]

61. Okay, I acknowledged that the term "Paygo" is in the summary and possible (likely?) in the rules....

....but as we can see even by that summary and clarifications by some of closer to them, it's not THE "Paygo" lightning rod that some (very few, in fact) are railing about.

I suppose we can call it a hybrid "Paygo" that allows two avenues of escape - it can be waived and it can also include revenue (tax) increases.

Bottom line, it's not the "Paygo" that people have come to loathe.

[disillusioned73]

98. Cause it is their job to spin.. ;)

[elleng]

38. Nobel Prize winner: PayGo rule is a bad idea.

Paul Krugman
✔
@paulkrugman
Agree that paygo is a bad idea, although less for pure economic reasons than for political economy: Dems can't tie their hands when Rs exploit this asymmetry. But anyway big props for using the term "austerian"

Ro Khanna
✔
@RoKhanna
I will be voting NO on the Rules package with #PayGo. It is terrible economics. The austerians were wrong about the Great Recession and Great Depression. At some point, politicians need to learn from mistakes and read economic history. @paulkrugman @StephanieKelton @RBReich

Link to tweet

…



https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211615177

[stuffmatters]

73. 1000%

[CentralMass]

55. The GOP has gutted federal revenue with their draconian corporate tax cut. At first glance, I think

thst AOC's postion on this might be smart.

The GOP has made and setup additional cuts to social programs. Restore the tax policy and revenue stream to sanity before puuting restriction on spending.

[pansypoo53219]

62. fuck austerity. you kill the moron's tax cuts for the 2%.

[KayF]

64. why isn't the headline about Ro Khanna?

he is voting the same way on this rules change.

Why are people criticizing AOC, and not Ro Khanna?

They are having the vote on this rules change on Thursday. My guess is that other people will also oppose it, I wonder will anyone care about them.

I wonder, do people care about this rules change at all or is this just about criticizing AOC?

[Yavin4]

66. I agree with AOC. Austerity is the lifeblood of the right.

Austerity is the reason for Brexit. Government has an obligation to improve the well being of its citizens. Clinton balanced the budget, but what did it get us? George W. Bush. What did he do? He blew open the deficit with tax cuts and wars.

When you limit government spending, you create economic hardship which gives the right the opening to cry for tax cuts. Getting bogged down in deficits is how the Republicans exert power when they're out of office and then use economic misery to get back into office.

[shanny]

76. Good.

[Hekate]

82. Making friends already, I see

[Raine]

89. I like AOC

and the waves she makes..

[Blue_Tires]

94. How is AOC going to ever get her pet projects passed

when she napalms all her bridges before being sworn in??

[disillusioned73]

95. Good...

They always do this...

[harun]

96. Vote NO on PAYGO!

[disillusioned73]

97. Ro Khanna gets it...

Link to tweet

[Tom Rinaldo]

100. Let's see. This rule change was added because some Democrats refused to vote for Pelosi without it

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez voted for Pelosi for Speaker without insisting that Pelosi write rules to her own particular liking. She simply won't vote for a change in rules that were the precondition that some other Dem Reps laid down to not oppose the overwhelming choice of the entire Democratic caucus for Speaker; Nancy Pelosi.

And AOC is getting knocked for disloyalty for voting against blackmail rule changes made to free the Speakership from being held hostage by a small group of renegade Reps???