Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

brooklynite

(94,572 posts)
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:01 AM Nov 2018

House Dem: Impeaching Trump on party lines would 'tear the country apart'

Source: Politico

Rep. Jerry Nadler warned Monday that any impeachment proceedings against President Donald Trump that begin in the new, Democrat-controlled House of Representatives would need to clear an obvious partisan bar.

Nadler, who is set to take over as chairman of the House Judiciary Committee and would oversee a potential impeachment process, outlined in an interview on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” a three-pronged test that he said would make for a legitimate impeachment proceeding, including that the offenses in question must be so grave and the evidence so clear that even some supporters of the president concede that impeachment is necessary.

Once it’s determined that a president has committed an impeachable offense, Nadler said, lawmakers need to consider whether the offense will “rise to the gravity where it’s worth putting the country through the trauma of an impeachment proceeding.”

The New York Democrat, who voted against impeaching former President Bill Clinton, said that the impeachment process must transcend party lines “because you don't want to tear the country apart.”

Read more: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/26/nadler-evidence-impeachable-offense-trump-1014702

88 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
House Dem: Impeaching Trump on party lines would 'tear the country apart' (Original Post) brooklynite Nov 2018 OP
(Unpopular opinion) Chump should not be impeached Dopers_Greed Nov 2018 #1
I agree. shanny Nov 2018 #3
I agree.. agingdem Nov 2018 #5
+1 Power 2 the People Nov 2018 #36
peach?? sorry and to think I was an English major in college... agingdem Nov 2018 #38
For what it's worth OriginalGeek Nov 2018 #77
agreed... agingdem Nov 2018 #81
This. nt libdem4life Nov 2018 #78
I agree it is better that he is a lame duck exboyfil Nov 2018 #11
Please enid602 Nov 2018 #84
No deals exboyfil Nov 2018 #86
I also agree. It could make Trump into a martyr. Best that he is exposed as a fraud, liar, etc. olegramps Nov 2018 #21
In a world without a corrupt Repugnant party he would be impeached and the Senate would convict him cstanleytech Nov 2018 #51
That's not what happens. 1st, it depends on thhe gravity of the charges onit2day Nov 2018 #68
Problem is the Repugnants had an equal duty to do their jobs as well which included being a check cstanleytech Nov 2018 #70
I agree. Dave Starsky Nov 2018 #88
I would rather see him indicted and tried. redstatebluegirl Nov 2018 #2
yes, let the courts handle Trump. And hit him in his wallet whenever possible. riversedge Nov 2018 #50
Yes, hitting him in the pocketbook will give him a fit conniption. eom sprinkleeninow Nov 2018 #79
It'll all turn on what, if anything, Mueller finds on Trump. Jedi Guy Nov 2018 #4
"High crimes" Scarsdale Nov 2018 #8
We did see what a fiasco the Clinton impeachment was. Archae Nov 2018 #18
The Muller report ScratchCat Nov 2018 #6
Don't know about that... robbob Nov 2018 #87
We are already torn apart. Impeach! AllyCat Nov 2018 #7
It will get much worse without Republican support for impeachment marylandblue Nov 2018 #9
All calls for justice require building a foundation before imposing punishment. Baitball Blogger Nov 2018 #34
I agree.with that. marylandblue Nov 2018 #40
I agree. Scarsdale Nov 2018 #10
Typical f**king Politico MISREPRESENTATION with their headline. What Nadler essentially said is still_one Nov 2018 #12
+1 H2O Man Nov 2018 #14
I second that motion................they are right wing rags turbinetree Nov 2018 #53
And how far do you think an impeachment would get in a Senate Trial? markpkessinger Nov 2018 #62
True, but if the evidence bu Mueller and any investigation is damning enough still_one Nov 2018 #73
You have more faith in Republicans than I do n/t markpkessinger Nov 2018 #74
Regardless, I still believe if the evidence is damning enough the House must try for impeachment, still_one Nov 2018 #75
The voice of truth and reason.Thanks still_one. Well said. onit2day Nov 2018 #69
The country is ALREADY torn apart. Scarsdale Nov 2018 #13
+1000 Power 2 the People Nov 2018 #37
This is how Democrats make me a little crazy BeyondGeography Nov 2018 #15
The headline is entirely misleading, and taken completely out of context, and misrepresents what still_one Nov 2018 #26
Actually, he was much more specific than that . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #66
It will never happen. If "W" wasn't held accountable for his total mess no one will...ever. walkingman Nov 2018 #16
Letting him run roughshod over the county... ALONG PARTY LINES... usaf-vet Nov 2018 #17
sure - how can it get worse? letting him run roughshod over the world for 2 more years, that's how. NRaleighLiberal Nov 2018 #19
I agree. Trump should not be impeached. Autumn Nov 2018 #20
Nadler is NOT saying he should not be impeached. That is an intentionally misleading headlline still_one Nov 2018 #27
I read it. Other people are saying he should be impeached. So far there is nothing to Autumn Nov 2018 #43
I had no doubt that you read it with the full context. still_one Nov 2018 #48
He also said they would have to consider . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #65
The duty of congress is the constitution and I heard the same nonsense beachbum bob Nov 2018 #22
The key is broad consensus and support against trump - the right remedies will follow empedocles Nov 2018 #23
First of all, how about waiting for the goddamned Mueller report first? Blue_Tires Nov 2018 #24
+ 1,000,000 Auggie Nov 2018 #32
I think Democrats should deflect questions about impeachment to investigations YessirAtsaFact Nov 2018 #25
Nope azureblue Nov 2018 #42
It will take months of public hearings to get people up to speed re Trump's crimes YessirAtsaFact Nov 2018 #46
There should be zero talk of impeachment until after Mueller's report Botany Nov 2018 #28
He deserves to be impeached but no Repubs would vote against him so he would "win." LonePirate Nov 2018 #29
+1 LastLiberal in PalmSprings Nov 2018 #35
Clickbait heading - this is a big part of our problem imho - even media on our side likes to Kashkakat v.2.0 Nov 2018 #30
So fucking crazy. The Republicans have defined themselves as the party or right and justice, Baitball Blogger Nov 2018 #31
Amazed.. Maxheader Nov 2018 #33
If the crimes were committed, it is symbolically important to impeach Renew Deal Nov 2018 #39
Gawd what a ridiculous frame azureblue Nov 2018 #41
No one should be coming out saying this so early........ Chakaconcarne Nov 2018 #44
Impeachment and trial as evidence justifies. Let the GOP derail the process. NCjack Nov 2018 #45
There are a lot of voters out there who are fence sitters on an issue like this . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #72
He's right, of course. MineralMan Nov 2018 #47
We all seem to forget that Nixon was re-elected in an overwhelming landslide, but just... TreasonousBastard Nov 2018 #49
If cutting out this tumor counts as "tearing they country apart" I'm all for it -nt Freelancer Nov 2018 #52
It is unlikely we would succeed in removing the tumor . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #71
Too late liberal N proud Nov 2018 #54
Why don't we see what we find first? SHRED Nov 2018 #55
If we stand up to the sessionists.... Toorich Nov 2018 #56
Trump has already torn this country apart... HopeAgain Nov 2018 #57
Expose his crimes, report it and then proceed kimbutgar Nov 2018 #58
Investigate, investigate, investigate. Reveal reveal reveal. truthisfreedom Nov 2018 #59
I agree mcar Nov 2018 #60
The only thing worse than not impeaching Trump . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #61
If HIGH CRIMES have been committed it is the DUTY of Congress to IMPEACH Martin Eden Nov 2018 #63
Sure . . . markpkessinger Nov 2018 #67
I don't expect impeachment to succeed in the Senate Martin Eden Nov 2018 #85
We MUST impeach! Trump and the GOP have already torn this country apart. Liberty Belle Nov 2018 #64
You mean like denying a President a Supreme Court appointment should've 'torn the country apart'? Hugin Nov 2018 #76
I am fine with savagely beating up the Party of Trump for the next 24 months. Vinnie From Indy Nov 2018 #80
A lot is riding on the Mueller investigation. Even some Republicans may agree to impeach. YOHABLO Nov 2018 #82
I believe it will go far to heal the country.... joanbarnes Nov 2018 #83

Dopers_Greed

(2,640 posts)
1. (Unpopular opinion) Chump should not be impeached
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:03 AM
Nov 2018

He should be beat electorally, then prosecuted when he's out of office.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
3. I agree.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:09 AM
Nov 2018

The totally corrupt Republicans in the Senate will NEVER vote to convict so the whole enterprise would simply result in dump staying in office, claiming to have been 1) victimized and 2) completely exonerated.

I'd rather see him slammed with RICO charges and everything possible at the state level. Oh, and crimes charges in the Hague. Loser.

agingdem

(7,850 posts)
5. I agree..
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:17 AM
Nov 2018

but prosecuted in office as well..I want to see his enablers, children, cabinet, chief of staff, acting AG et al. investigated, subpoenaed..I want to see them brought before the various House committees under oath and give testimony in public..I want to see Nadler, Schiff, Waters, Cummings rain down on them with facts when they hedge, claim executive privilege, and lie...I want to see the Republican members of those said committees neutered when they attempt to defend the indefensible...no...I don't want trump impeached, I want him agressively punished.. and after that world peach would be nice....

agingdem

(7,850 posts)
38. peach?? sorry and to think I was an English major in college...
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:14 PM
Nov 2018

I meant world peace.. imPEACHmeant on the mind

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
11. I agree it is better that he is a lame duck
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:25 AM
Nov 2018

at this point. If he gets impeached, it has to be the Republicans idea, and we only go along because it is the right thing to do.

The word impeach should not be on the lips of any Democratic Senator or Representative. They should be talking about the oversight function of Congress, checks and balances, and accountability. Not the I word.

enid602

(8,620 posts)
84. Please
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 08:09 PM
Nov 2018

Just please, please don’t offer hm any kind of deal or lenience if he resigns. I’m hoping this will be our Nuremberg Trial.

olegramps

(8,200 posts)
21. I also agree. It could make Trump into a martyr. Best that he is exposed as a fraud, liar, etc.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:40 AM
Nov 2018

The most humiliating defeat would be a landslide victory for the Democrats in 2020. The Democrats should proceed deliberately with cold reserve and leave the demagoguery to the Republicans. Hopefully the expose will bring an end to a party that has been transformed into a fascist criminal organization that is intent on establishing a authoriatarian presidency.

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
51. In a world without a corrupt Repugnant party he would be impeached and the Senate would convict him
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:47 PM
Nov 2018

however the Repugnant party is corrupt in the world in which we live in so he will never be removed from office except if he is voted out or reaches his 2 term limit.
In fact my prediction if we tried impeachment is as follows.
#1 The Repugnants of the Senate and House (along with their PR firm of Fox & Putin) would decide to try to use it to rally their base by having the ones in districts where Trump is unpopular vote to impeach so now they would do the whole "MAGA!!! Them there liberals are out to get our President.".
#2 The Senate Repugpants would then order the Senators that have to run for election in 2020 that are vulnerable to anti Trump sentiment to convict however they would make sure that it would not be enough to reach the 2/3 threshold.

So really in the end trying to remove him would help the Repugnants more than anything so our best bet is to use our House majority to prevent him and the Repugnants from doing more harm to the country and get them to dance to our tune for a change.
One thing I would like our guys to do first is to work on a new budget that redirects as much federal spending in any strong red states as they legally can to use it to force the Repugnant Senators and House members to back our real budget and proposals such as reversing the taxes cuts on the ultra wealthy and corporations which have proven to be good only for increasing the budget deficient.

Oh and why the strong red states rather than moderate purple leaning ones? Because the purple we might win if we do not threaten them and give fuel to the moronic MAGA voters so we should offer them more help instead where as the red ones are a lost cause for now.

 

onit2day

(1,201 posts)
68. That's not what happens. 1st, it depends on thhe gravity of the charges
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:01 PM
Nov 2018

2nd) Trump is self destructive and impeachment might cause his head to explode before he hung himself. 3rd)It is a duty and responsibility of the House and should never be ignored because of political reasons. 4th) Trump is already tearing this country apart while making it an embarrassment to the world and must be stopped and regulated. Impeachment would tie his hands while showing our citizens how self serving and destructive this PINO actually is. If the charges show criminal overreach...we must impeach. Trump has a history of losing. especially in court and his white supremacist supporters will always be here trying to divide the nation. We outnumber them 5-1 and the more they disrupt and try to divide the number opposing them increases in power and force.
So don't be paranoid. If we have reason to impeach we will not feed hypocrisy. We will stand strong that no one is above the law.

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
70. Problem is the Repugnants had an equal duty to do their jobs as well which included being a check
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:07 PM
Nov 2018

on the President and its a duty they decided to throw under the bus once they had one of their own as President.

Jedi Guy

(3,191 posts)
4. It'll all turn on what, if anything, Mueller finds on Trump.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:10 AM
Nov 2018

If he finds evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors, then impeachment should happen. If the GOP in the Senate shields him, then that becomes the albatross around their collective necks.

If he doesn't find anything impeachable, then impeachment would be a terrible idea and would hand Trump propaganda material.

Scarsdale

(9,426 posts)
8. "High crimes"
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:22 AM
Nov 2018

Like getting a BJ in the WH? THAT kind of crime? Surely, selling the USA to Russia is more of a crime than that, even for gop? The democratic politicians will have to take the Senate next election, THEN prosecute the fat bastard.

Archae

(46,328 posts)
18. We did see what a fiasco the Clinton impeachment was.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:31 AM
Nov 2018

While the House GOP was impeaching Clinton for *OMG!* lying about oral sex, those same House GOP'ers were pulling shit that made Bill Clinton look honest and trustworthy. (All the way to the top, Newt Gingrich was cheating on his second wife, while yelling about Bill Clinton.)

A partisan impeachment of Trump would be a similar fiasco, and to top it off would install the Jesus freak Mike Pence in the presidency.

ScratchCat

(1,990 posts)
6. The Muller report
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:18 AM
Nov 2018

and related indictments will be too much for even the GOP Senate to ignore or forgive. The conclusion is going to be that the Trump Campaign conspired with Russia to steal the 2016 election. Muller has the unblocked phone call from Jr to Sr, so The Don's complicity is proven. A half dozen or more people from his circle will be charged if they aren't under a cooperation agreement. Even Alan Dershowitz has conceded at this point that the report will be bad for Trump himself. Invoking "Hillary Clinton" isn't going to swing the repubs back to his side(conceding he broke the law but stopping HC was more important - not going to work).

robbob

(3,530 posts)
87. Don't know about that...
Tue Nov 27, 2018, 02:19 PM
Nov 2018

Many of his brains dead followers believe WWIII would be well underway and the commie re-education camps running at full capacity if Hillary had won. In their deranged minds we owe Russia a big thank you for “saving” America.

How do you argue with that?

Baitball Blogger

(46,715 posts)
34. All calls for justice require building a foundation before imposing punishment.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:06 PM
Nov 2018

Let's build a foundation, first. Start the investigations which might weaken Trump among his supporters before the next election. It might take two years to do. And then prosecute to the hilt when he's out of office.

Don't do what we did with GWBII. We gave too many people too much time to continue the underhanded work they began.

Scarsdale

(9,426 posts)
10. I agree.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:25 AM
Nov 2018

Then have the gop on TV, explaining why he is not a crook. Mueller knows who took Russian money, so the gop is screwed if they think it is all a secret.

still_one

(92,192 posts)
12. Typical f**king Politico MISREPRESENTATION with their headline. What Nadler essentially said is
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:26 AM
Nov 2018

we need to look at the evidence for impeachment, and act accordingly.


I love how they take an excerpt out of what he said, intentionally omitting the context in the headline, no doubt hoping that it will stir up and divide Democrats who do NOT read the full article.

It is intentionally deceptive and misleading.

They do this all the time.


Between politico and the hill as far as I am concerned they are gossip rags trying to stir things up


turbinetree

(24,703 posts)
53. I second that motion................they are right wing rags
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:50 PM
Nov 2018


New Congressional over site in the House start's in forty (40) days


November 3, 2020 cannot get here fast enough..............................

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
62. And how far do you think an impeachment would get in a Senate Trial?
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 01:59 PM
Nov 2018

To convict at a Senate Trial would require the vote of every Democrat, the two independents, and 18 Republicans to get to the necessary 67 votes. And with this gang of Republicans in control of the Senate , even if Trump had committed murder and there was DNA evidence to prove it, you would never get 18 of them to go along with it!

And if you try to impeach him and fail to convict, you will most likely strengthen him politically. (Failed impeachment attempts are not good for the party that pursues it -- just ask Republicans.

still_one

(92,192 posts)
73. True, but if the evidence bu Mueller and any investigation is damning enough
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:27 PM
Nov 2018

it is the duty of the House to to try for impeachment regardless of the outcome of the Senate

Let me give a hypothetical

If the evidence shows that trump compromised the security of the US to a foreign power, I think that would rise to the level of impeachment

I even believe in that case republicans in the Senate would join in

still_one

(92,192 posts)
75. Regardless, I still believe if the evidence is damning enough the House must try for impeachment,
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:41 PM
Nov 2018

and if the Senate does not convict, and the charges are serious enough, the people will decide.

This is NOT Clinton lying about inappropriate behavior in the Oval Office, I am referring to a situation where the President has compromised the U.S. to a foreign power.


Scarsdale

(9,426 posts)
13. The country is ALREADY torn apart.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:28 AM
Nov 2018

Don't these politicians read about the protests, marches, signs held? tRump has done too much damage in a short period of time, he needs to be STOPPED.

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
15. This is how Democrats make me a little crazy
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:30 AM
Nov 2018
”You don't want half the country to say to the other half for the next 30 years, ‘We won the election. You stole it from us,’” Nadler said, arguing that “you have to be able to think at the beginning of the impeachment process that the evidence is so clear, of offenses so grave, that once you've laid out all the evidence, a good fraction of the opposition, the voters, will reluctantly admit to themselves ‘They have to do it.’”


See, “Gore, Al, 2000 election.” The country was torn apart a long time ago, Jerry.

A fundamentally good man can have an election stolen from him without tearing the country apart but we can’t impeach a disloyal, money-laundering Russian toady, even if the evidence is there. Because that’s what he’s basically saying; nothing will be worth impeachment if we can’t get a few Republicans to agree with us. Well, guess what, none will.

Nadler’s a smart guy, but he embraces the same obsolete form of civility that has limited our ability to govern this country and contain a nihilistic opposition since December of 2000. Forget Republican feelings. Stand for something, ffs.

still_one

(92,192 posts)
26. The headline is entirely misleading, and taken completely out of context, and misrepresents what
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:48 AM
Nov 2018

Nadler said.

Nadler is essentially saying we need to look at the evidence to determine if their are impeachable offenses, and proceed accordinly. Doing otherwise would "tear the country apart"

He is NOT saying we should not impeach. He is saying it needs to be done the right way





markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
66. Actually, he was much more specific than that . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 02:34 PM
Nov 2018

He said that if impeachable offenses are found, Congress would then have to make a determination as to whether the offenses were so grave as to warrant putting the country through the trauma of an impeachment. He also emphasized the importance of bipartisan support for any impeachment effort.

At most, Politico did a llittle reading between the lines, but it did not take it out of context at all.

AS for trying to "stir up Democrats," I would have expected any reporter from any outlet that was worth his or her salt to ask the question about impeachment. Their headline simply reads a little reality into what Nadler said (that reality being that in order to convict at an impeachment trial, 18 Republican votes would be needed, in addition to every Democrat and the two Independents. If you think there is a snowball's chance in hell of that happening, I'll have what you're smoking!

walkingman

(7,617 posts)
16. It will never happen. If "W" wasn't held accountable for his total mess no one will...ever.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:30 AM
Nov 2018

The POTUS is truly above the law. Shouldn't be but that's our reality.

usaf-vet

(6,186 posts)
17. Letting him run roughshod over the county... ALONG PARTY LINES...
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:30 AM
Nov 2018

is already tearing the country apart.

That why we are where we are. It's single party power cramming their agenda down the rest of our throats.

IMPEACH the SOB. It might staunch the destruction Trump is doing world wide.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,014 posts)
19. sure - how can it get worse? letting him run roughshod over the world for 2 more years, that's how.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:33 AM
Nov 2018

We are already torn apart. It is time to act.

Autumn

(45,091 posts)
20. I agree. Trump should not be impeached.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:36 AM
Nov 2018

What is waiting in the wings is just as vile. Let him resign under the investigations. The House Dems can put the breaks on his shit.

still_one

(92,192 posts)
27. Nadler is NOT saying he should not be impeached. That is an intentionally misleading headlline
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:50 AM
Nov 2018

taken out of context.

Nadler is essentially saying if impeachment is done it needs to be done the right way through investigation and evidence


Autumn

(45,091 posts)
43. I read it. Other people are saying he should be impeached. So far there is nothing to
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:27 PM
Nov 2018

impeach him on. That we know of.

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
65. He also said they would have to consider . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 02:24 PM
Nov 2018

. . . whether the offenses, even if impeachable ones, were grave enough to warrant putting the country through the trauma of an impeachment. And he made it clear that bipartisan support would be a crucial factor in the decision whether to impeach. The Politico headline may have read between the lines a bit, but it did not take it out of context.

Here's the reality: Removing Trump via impeachment would require 67 votes at a Senate trial. Democrats have 47 seats and there are two independents. That means they would have to pick up 18 Republican votes to convict. You might -- might -- find a handful of Republican Senators who would vote to convict if the case were absolutely airtight and irrefutable. But you'll never get 18 of them to go along with it.

And imagine Trump the day after the Senate failed to convict him. He would tout it as vindication, and many voters -- especially the fence sitters -- would go with the "winner". The end result is that Trump would be strengthened politically.

And anyway, you shouldn't be so eager for Mike Pence to assume the office; his agenda is every bit as toxic as Trump's, only he has legislative experience and self control, and so would be less likely to create the kinds of problems Trump creates for himself.

Here's a link to the interview: http://player.theplatform.com/p/7wvmTC/MSNBCEmbeddedOffSite?guid=n_mj_nadler_181126

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
22. The duty of congress is the constitution and I heard the same nonsense
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:41 AM
Nov 2018

By Walsh who refused to recommend impeachment of Reagan AND bush from clear breaking of law. That tears our country apart as it reinforces the idea those at the top have specific entitlement.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
24. First of all, how about waiting for the goddamned Mueller report first?
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:47 AM
Nov 2018

Secondly, even if Dems decide not to move forward with the articles of impeachment, IT STILL MUST DANGLE OVER THE HEADS OF DONNIE AND THE GOP! Never let them breathe easy or relax just because they think that option is off the table. Like nuclear war, the 'threat' by itself is enough to keep everyone in line...

YessirAtsaFact

(2,064 posts)
25. I think Democrats should deflect questions about impeachment to investigations
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:47 AM
Nov 2018

Simply state that any discussion of impeachment is premature and that the House is going to be reestablishing it’s role actively overseeing the Executive branch.

The results of that oversight will be discussed at the appropriate time.

azureblue

(2,146 posts)
42. Nope
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:23 PM
Nov 2018

Don has already committed several impeachable offenses. We do not need the Mueller report to prove it. There is no reason to not impeach him now.

YessirAtsaFact

(2,064 posts)
46. It will take months of public hearings to get people up to speed re Trump's crimes
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:32 PM
Nov 2018

We already know about them here, but we have a lot more knowledge than most Americans.

Public congressional hearings will get the truth out there.

Moving to impeach without sufficient public support won’t accomplish anything.

LonePirate

(13,424 posts)
29. He deserves to be impeached but no Repubs would vote against him so he would "win."
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:50 AM
Nov 2018

Mueller could provide incontrovertible proof of high crimes and every Repub would still support 45. Impeachment is simply not possible nowadays.

35. +1
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:07 PM
Nov 2018

If the Senate failed to convict him by just one vote, Trump would declare victory and not change a damned thing he's doing. If anything, he'd be worse.

Kashkakat v.2.0

(1,752 posts)
30. Clickbait heading - this is a big part of our problem imho - even media on our side likes to
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 11:53 AM
Nov 2018

inflame and incite.

Baitball Blogger

(46,715 posts)
31. So fucking crazy. The Republicans have defined themselves as the party or right and justice,
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:02 PM
Nov 2018

that they wouldn't hesitate to take someone down without worrying about finding support on the other side. Or, they would call it bi-partisan if one blue dog joins their ranks. Not hard to do, I'm afraid.

Maxheader

(4,373 posts)
33. Amazed..
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:03 PM
Nov 2018

You don't ignore cancer..and just go about your business, you cut out the cancer...
As it does affect the rest of the body...

Renew Deal

(81,859 posts)
39. If the crimes were committed, it is symbolically important to impeach
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:17 PM
Nov 2018

So really, nothing can happen until the Mueller report comes out.

azureblue

(2,146 posts)
41. Gawd what a ridiculous frame
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:20 PM
Nov 2018

We are not going to impeach Don because of party affiliation. He will be impeached because he ignored the Constitution, betrayed his country, and broke several laws. IOW he will be impeached to show that laws and the principles that this country are founded upon, are applied to everyone.

Don is the acme of the greed and corruption that taken over congress.. Don and his corrupt ilk need to be removed from office, and replaced by people with honor and integrity, people who will represent the people of America, not the rich and big business.

Chakaconcarne

(2,453 posts)
44. No one should be coming out saying this so early........
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:29 PM
Nov 2018

Unless it's just to throw off the GOP until January.

NCjack

(10,279 posts)
45. Impeachment and trial as evidence justifies. Let the GOP derail the process.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:32 PM
Nov 2018

They can then run their future campaigns for the next 100 years on choosing to protect criminals and not our country.

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
72. There are a lot of voters out there who are fence sitters on an issue like this . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:23 PM
Nov 2018

. . . who will ultimately embrace whoever they see as the "winner," and would see Democrats as hapless "sore losers." But i guess we could all congratulate ourselves on our principles as our party faded into insignificance . . .

MineralMan

(146,312 posts)
47. He's right, of course.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:32 PM
Nov 2018

We don't like to hear that, though, so we're going to complain about it.

Without the actual possibility of removal by the Senate, there is little point in the House beginning impeachment proceedings. Unless, of course, evidence of some horrendous thing about Trump appears. That thing would have to be bad enough for some Republican Senators to change their opinion to become willing to remove.

No President has yet been impeached and removed. Nixon resigned. Trump probably would not.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
49. We all seem to forget that Nixon was re-elected in an overwhelming landslide, but just...
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:44 PM
Nov 2018

a year and a half later had lost the confidence of his Republican backers in Congress and the general public, forcing his resignation in the face of impeachment.

Nadler, Pelosi and other professionals in this government game know full well that impeachment actually increased Clinton's approval by making him look the victim, and nothing serious will happen until Trump's version of "the tapes" turns the tide.

But when that tide turns, the Tangerine Wankmaggot will be out like a light.

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
71. It is unlikely we would succeed in removing the tumor . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:19 PM
Nov 2018

. . . what with Republicans holding a firm majority in the Senate. An impeachment effort that failed to convict at a Senate trial would only make the cancer more virulent.

 

SHRED

(28,136 posts)
55. Why don't we see what we find first?
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 12:59 PM
Nov 2018

As if there's not enough already but still.
Mueller Report has yet to come out. No "real" investigations have occurred yet in the House...or Senate for that matter.

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
61. The only thing worse than not impeaching Trump . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 01:53 PM
Nov 2018

. . . would be to impeach him and then fail to convict at a Senate trial. That could very well have the effect of strengthening him politically, which is the very last thing we need to do.

67 votes are needed to convict on an impeachment. That means, in addition to every Democrat and the two independents, 18 Republican senators would have to be willing to vote to convict Trump. And that will never happen.

And anyway, we shouldn't be quite so eager to see Mike Pence assume the presidency. His agenda is just as toxic, only he would be better able to avoid the kinds of pitfalls Trump creates for himself (for which we should thank the stars!)

Martin Eden

(12,868 posts)
63. If HIGH CRIMES have been committed it is the DUTY of Congress to IMPEACH
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 02:15 PM
Nov 2018

How the Dems go about this is very important. Let's see the Mueller report first and other evidence turned up in legitimate relevant investigations by the Democratic House.

If a clear cut case of high crimes can be publicly made there is a duty to uphold the rule of law and hold this POtuS accountable through impeachment -- regardless of whether or not the Senate will also do their duty by voting to impeach.

markpkessinger

(8,399 posts)
67. Sure . . .
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 02:48 PM
Nov 2018

. . . But unfortunately, the Constitution doesn't define what it means by "high crimes and misdemeanors," Senate Republicans are sure to disagree about what constitutes a "high crime or misdemeanor" that rises to the level of warranting impeachment. The House could force the issue, but an impeachment trial requires 67 votes in order to convict (18 Republicans plus every Democrat and the two independents).

And actually, there is no Congressional "duty" to impeach. Impeachment is an overtly political process. But the House is under no obligation to bring articles of impeachment against a president unless it has the political will to do so. Senators, who effectively serve as jurors at an impeachment trial, are obligated to consider evidence, but they are free to vote their consciences (or lack thereof).

Impeachment is not a legal process; it is a political one, and thus there is no legal obligation or duty to proceed on any given impeachment vote. One can argue, and I would agree, that there should be a moral obligation, but I am not at all prepared to bet on the moral consciences of 18 Republicans!

Meanwhile, should the impeachment be brought and the Senate fail to convict at trial, we will have succeeded only in strengthening Trump politically.

Martin Eden

(12,868 posts)
85. I don't expect impeachment to succeed in the Senate
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 09:37 PM
Nov 2018

But I disagree with you about the DUTY to impeach.

I will also point out it was impossible for the writers of our Constitution to specify in detail every offense that would meet the definition of HIGH CRIMES -- but that does not mean there is nothing which would qualify for what they had in mind in their time or centuries hence. The Founders would not have have included a means to impeach without anticipating the necessity of doing so, and where there is necessity, duty follows.

And yes, impeachment is a political act, but illegal activity can be very much a part of the case. The indictments already handed down by the Mueller investigation are legal matters in our system of justice, and any strong case against Donald Trump will include violations of the law by him. If a sitting president cannot be indicted for those offenses, then impeachment is the only means for upholding the law.

This goes beyond a moral argument. The integrity and safety of our republic is in jeopardy when Congress fails to hold the chief executive accountable, emboldening future high crimes and misdemeanors. Hence, duty.

In my previous post I stated the House Dems need to go about this the right way in building a strong public case. I have a fairly good understanding of the political dynamics at work here. The "strong case" I have in mind would not convince Trump's rabid base (nothing would) and it probably wouldn't get enough GOP senators to cross the aisle, but the case I have in mind would contain enough thoroughly convincing evidence of HIGH CRIMES (to independent voters and reasonable people of all stripes) that Trump and Republicans who still supported him would indeed be politically weakened.

But first, the truth must come out. If that strong case can't be made then pursuing impeachment would not rise to the level of undeniable duty, and would be a mistake.

Liberty Belle

(9,535 posts)
64. We MUST impeach! Trump and the GOP have already torn this country apart.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 02:17 PM
Nov 2018

If we don't impeach this president with all of the crimes he has clearly committed, far worse than NIxon's or Andrew Johnson, the other presidents besides Clinton who faced impeachment, we may as well tear up the constitution.

We must do the right thing and impeach Trump. If Republicans in the Senate fail to convict him, after Americans see the compelling evidence revealed, then it will be on their shoulders for doing the wrong thing. We are not responsible for how THEY vote. We are responsible for setting the right moral and legal example for America by standing up for the rule of law and the constitutional power that our founding fathers wisely gave to Congress to remove an incompetent, corrupt, criminal or traitorous president. This one is all four -- you couldn't invent a stronger case for striving to remove a president from office.

WE must not be swayed by political influences, such as whether Pence would become president, or whether someone may lose an election.

This is about fighting for the very heart and soul or our democracy. I for one would not like to see it go down the drain without a fight to save it. We cannot afford two more years of Trump at the held, who is apt to sell out our national interests to Russia, start a war, shut down our borders, violate human rights, civil rights, women's rights, destroy our environment and accelerate the destruction of our planet through global warming among countless other wrongs.

If we won't fight to protect life on earth, what have we become?

Hugin

(33,148 posts)
76. You mean like denying a President a Supreme Court appointment should've 'torn the country apart'?
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 03:45 PM
Nov 2018

Something like that?

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
80. I am fine with savagely beating up the Party of Trump for the next 24 months.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 04:06 PM
Nov 2018

Death by a million cuts!

Let the subpoenas rain down like urine from a Russian hooker on Donnie Rotten's head.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
82. A lot is riding on the Mueller investigation. Even some Republicans may agree to impeach.
Mon Nov 26, 2018, 07:18 PM
Nov 2018

We just don't know. We certainly can't keep it off the table.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»House Dem: Impeaching Tru...