Trump argues 14th Amendment doesn't cover birthright citizenship

[DonViejo]

Source: The Hill



BY TAL AXELROD - 10/31/18 09:57 AM EDT

President Trump argued Wednesday morning that children of undocumented immigrants born in the U.S. are not protected by the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution.

Link to tweet

Trump floated the idea of issuing an executive order banning birthright citizenship in an interview with Axios, which released a clip of the exchange Tuesday.

He was soon joined in support on Capitol Hill by some of his staunchest allies, such as Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.).

Critics of the plan say it would violate the 14th Amendment, which states “All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/414023-trump-argues-14th-amendment-doesnt-cover-birthright-citizenship

[SCVDem]

1. Dump has a law degree?

Gotta love Cracker Jack!

[forgotmylogin]

16. Yeah, screw hundreds of years of set precedent.

Dickhead Don wants it and he will have it.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

38. For a man who doesn't read . . .

. . . how the fuck does he know what it says ?

Oh, and Spanky, let's leave interpretation of The Constitution to someone who didn't attend Trump U.

[forgotmylogin]

47. I think that's exactly the point.

I'm for sure he hasn't read the Constitution. He's a newbie politician who hasn't done the requisite groundwork or probably even taken government and civics classes. He's railed at Obama for using executive orders, which in comparison to every other thing is an easy one-step process he can take by just signing off on it, so that's what he's doing. He's learned how to use the hammer, so every government policy is now a nail to him.

It's very similar to how he's ignorant of a lot of things, so when he comes up with a phrase via cryptomnesia he believes he's invented it and wants everyone to be proud of the smart thing he's "come up with".

[Renew Deal]

2. Jurisdiction is places like Puerto Rico.

[christx30]

25. It's an island.

Surrounded by water. Big water. Ocean water.

[neohippie]

3. slippery slope

They want to argue that illegal immigrants and tourists, or even people on work visas, aren't subject to the jurisdiction, but then they wouldn't be able to arrest them if they aren't subject to the jurisdiction thereof, that would be like saying they have diplomatic immunity or that citizens of other countries aren't subject to our laws while they visit the US.

Basically they want to have it both ways... bend the law to fit their application for one instance and not for another

[The Liberal Lion]

10. nice point

[7962]

19. Very good point!

[PatSeg]

4. "Many legal scholars agree..."

Like who Donald! Or were they just the voices in your head again.

And there's no way that he understands what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means.

[marble falls]

5. We don't need the Surpreme Court to rule, we only need an English teacher ...

“All persons born .... in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

Pretty clearly written, starting with "ALL"

[BumRushDaShow]

11. Proper "English" is foreign to him. nt

[marble falls]

12. Proper anything is foreign to that jackass.

[BumRushDaShow]

15. Very true!

[Marthe48]

6. Citizenship is defined in the first sentence

of the 14th Amendment. More interesting is Section 4: the U.S. Government isn't responsible for paying any debt incurred in the aid of insurrection or rebellion against the U.S.A. So we can stop paying trump and his henchmen right now.

ACLU sent a pocket sized copy of The Constitution of the United States of America in their fund raising envelope. I sent them a donation.

[The Liberal Lion]

7. A well regulated Militia

Oh I'm sorry mr. orange. I thought you were a business expert (taj mahal, trump steaks, trump ice, trump university, trump tower tampa, NJ Generals), not a constitutional law expert like our last (and last real) President.

[Lheurch]

8. The person who wrote the text of the 14th Amendment would actually agree with him

I am not commenting on what SHOULD be the law in 2018, other than to say an executive order has no authority here, but we need to be honest to history. Senator Jacob Howard, who wrote Section 1 of the 14th Amendment said in the senate during the debate for the Amendment:

"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."

Source: [link:http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073%2Fllcg073.db&recNum=11|

So it is true that the Amendment was never intended to include illegal immigrants and it is definitely not an unreasonable position to argue that. It annoys me a lot that Trump is technically correct on an issue, though I doubt he understands why he is.

[BumRushDaShow]

14. Sentence meaning MATTERS

persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers

I.e., this section explictly references Ambassadors or citizens of other countries in the U.S. for diplomatic purposes, and their families. And the reason? Because an "Embassy" is literally considered a FOREIGN country in and of itself and these folks were not sent here to revoke their own citizenship in favor of the country that they are temporarily residing in. The emphasis on "who are foreigners/aliens" is differentiating from (white/citizen) U.S. diplomats - and who themselves may have had children born in foreign lands while in diplomatic service in another country.

Otherwise based on that interpretation, recent slaves who were brought into the U.S. just before the Civil War and gave birth to children on U.S. plantation soil, would NOT have been considered "citizens" nor would their children be considered such... And certainly "slaves" were not "illegal immigrants" and did not come here of their own free will, because the white trash who dragged my ancestors here did so immorally (and many illegally even after slavery had been ended in a number of states).

The whole fucking point of this amendment was because of THIS GUY -

[7962]

21. But if we agree that the point of the amendment was to protect the children of former slaves,

then wouldn't it be easier for Mr Bullshit to point that out and say "It was never meant to apply to ANYONE coming into the country who then gives birth"?
Because there can always be the argument of "intent", like we've had on so many other laws

[BumRushDaShow]

23. Everything that comes out of the WH is complete bullshit

and not even worthy of elucidation or discussion.

Ironically, when it comes to the GOP, the "literalism of the Constitution" suddenly disappears when it is inconvenient to them.

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

<...>

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

The other important parts of that section of the 14th Amendment were the continued emphasis of the "due process" and "equal protection" clauses (as originally seen in the 5th Amendment) which are critical in ligation involving rights to all sorts of folks who have and continue to be denied justice due to disparate treatment - despite being full citizens.

[atreides1]

17. Okay

There are varying interpretations of the original intent of Congress and of the ratifying states, based on statements made during the congressional debate over the amendment, as well as the customs and understandings prevalent at that time. Some of the major issues that have arisen about this clause are the extent to which it included Native Americans, its coverage of non-citizens legally present in the United States when they have a child, whether the clause allows revocation of citizenship, and whether the clause applies to illegal immigrants.


When adopted, the Limiting Clause, which was drafted against the backdrop of the Civil Rights Act, was clearly understood to withhold birthright citizenship from the American-born children of foreign diplomats present in this country, because under international law diplomats and their families were largely immune from the legal control and the courts of their host country. The limiting clause also was understood not to grant birthright citizenship to various members of Indian tribes whose political relations with the United States limited its authority over the tribes’ members. The scope of the limiting clause is a matter of political controversy today.

[Cheviteau]

24. And I Have My Doubts About You.

No, Trump is NOT technically correct. Read reply #14.

[Paladin]

31. Those are my doubts, as well.

'Tis the season (midterms) for such things.

[SergeStorms]

34. So Don Jr, Eric and Ivanka aren't citizens then.

Since Ivana wasn't a U.S. citizen when they were born. Is that correct? I'd really LOVE to see any one of them pass a citizenship test.

[John Fante]

51. If the person who wrote the 14th amendment included this

in the text...

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons

... he wouldn't be known as the man who wrote the 14th amendment, if you catch my drift.

The amendment was written as such precisely to avoid any caveats, such as "children of undocumented immigrants aren't real citizens".

[getagrip_already]

9. ok, so if non-citizens aren't subject to the jusisdiction of the us.....

Does that mean we can't arrest them for crimes they may commit? Or even for being here illegally?

If we don't have jurisdiction over them, we can't impose out laws on them.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

39. Ever heard of "diplomatic immunity" ??

[getagrip_already]

44. So all non-citizens have immunity?

And can commit whatever crimes they want?

Hmmmmmm

[JonLP24]

50. Those with diplomatic immunity

Ironically are the only ones that aren't granted birthright citizenship.

[turbinetree]

13. More deflection from the serial liar

he and his party own the 1.3 trillion debt

he and his party own the dismantling of the Affordable Care Act, and are LYING that they will protecting pre-existing conditions in the ACA

he and his party want to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to pay off the 1.3 tax cut

he and his party are dismantling our environmental protections laws

he and his party are attacking the very agency that protects its citizens the USDA, this one agency, has scientist that look at the environment, food, water...................everything


It would take a Constitutional Convention to re-write the 14th Amendment............this ass has nothing...........except treason over his head, and his right wing fascist republican party enabling the treason...............they are suppose to put a check on the presidency and protect us the citizens..................they have failed.........................




November 20-18 cannot get here fast enough...................get out and vote

[pwb]

18. The jurisdiction thereof means they are protected. Period.

Trump again trying to lead by dumbfuckery. Throwing anything out to his shit for brains base in the last week before we correct them all.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

20. Trump is too ignorant to have come up with this. Who's putting this idea in his head?

I have never heard the argument that birthright citizenship doesn't exist for children born in the U.S. whose parents aren't legal immigrants. Ever. So who came up with this abomination, and who told Trump he could do away with it by EO?

Hannity is too stupid, Lindsey Graham is rudderless without McCain, Fox & Friends is, well, Fox & Friends. Someone Trump knows told him this would be a good idea, and appealed to his inherent racism and narcissism to set it in motion. For Donnie Two Scoops it's a win-win issue: (1) it's red meat for his base to latch on to a week before the election, and (2) if he can do away with a Constitutional Amendment by fiat, it will make him the most powerful president in U.S. history, and in his tiny mind being the most powerful means being the best.

This is just a continuation of his overall game plan: (1) come down the escalator and proclaim that Mexicans are rapists; (2) run a campaign based on fear of "the other"; (3) come up with a simple plan for a complex problem (and "Build the Wall" is easier to chant than "Use legislative and diplomatic means to develop a solution to stop the inflow of non-documented persons into the United States, while providing workers for employers--like farmers--who are dependent on on these people for cheap labor that is so back-breaking Americans won't do it!"; (4) ridicule a Gold Star family because they're not WASPs; (5) keep people who have a legal right to be here (asylum seekers) out, and if that doesn't work, take away their children, possibly forever; (6) eject on any pretext--or none--persons who came to the U.S. through established processes and went on to become naturalized citizens; (7) define an entire community (LGBT) out of existence, and (8) declare that a Constitutional Amendment says only what you say it does, and that any SCOTUS decisions upholding it are wrongly decided.

And, oh yes, state unequivocally that people who hate Jews are good people. And the press is the "enemy of the people."

I'm sure the list goes on. Putin has a strategic game plan for destroying our country from both the inside and outside, and with the weakest and most ego-driven person ever serving as president, he's closer than ever to succeeding. As Rachel said Tuesday, we have been given a means to correct the course of this insane president, and that is the vote.

GOTV!

[Harker]

37. Too lazy and clearly incompetent.

He's merely a sock puppet for the "brains" that are presently staggering as they try to run the con.

To give him credit even for what pass as "ideas" in this maladministration is laughable.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

40. I nominate Stephan Miller or "In bad need of Hygiene" Steve Bannon

[sinkingfeeling]

22. Love to see his reading comprehension score.

[unblock]

26. idiot donnie is actually making the case that undocumented immigrants can't legally be deported.

he's trying to say they're not subject to the jurisdiction of the united states, meaning we can't legally enforce our laws against them.

in effect, he's saying they have the equivalent of diplomatic immunity.

in fact, that phrase was inserted precisely to exclude children of foreign diplomats.

[jmowreader]

33. It was also intended to exclude members of enrolled tribes

The enrolled tribes are considered sovereign nations, so way back then anyone who was a member wasn’t subject to having their kids be US citizens. This has changed.

[bigbrother05]

27. Are those the same scholars that ignore "well regulated militia" in 2A?

Maybe they went to the same school that produced "many scientists" that dispute climate change?

Or are they the same "legal scholars" that told W that waterboarding wasn't torture?

[Turbineguy]

28. So now he's

a Constitutional scholar? I think he got himself mixed up with the previous President.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

41. If he's a "constitutional scholar," then

"I'm the Princess of Canada." (Anyone remember what movie that line is from ?)

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

49. Trump is just a bullshit artist.

He seems to think his bullshit is going to win out over the rule of law.

[SKKY]

29. I've often asked myself this question, and was never really sure of the answer until now.

Yes, he really is THAT stupid.

[MaryMagdaline]

30. Having trouble following MAGAlogic

If the 14th Amendment does not automatically grant citizenship on those born here, why does Graham need to introduce a new bill to get rid of citizenship by birth? (Such a bill assumes that there is contradictory law in place; otherwise, why file a bill to CHANGE things?)

Are they trying to argue that the 14th is SILENT on this subject?

Have MAGAbrains found out yet how an Amendment is repealed?

[C_U_L8R]

32. Trump can't offer up one 'expert' that agrees with this bullshit

and no, Lindsay Graham doesn't count

[onenote]

35. I'm sure he can.

That doesn't mean they're right. But they exist.

See, for example, this statement from a unanimous 2003 decision of the 7th Circuit (Ofjori v. Ashcroft):

A constitutional amendment may be required to change the rule whereby birth in this country automatically confers U.S. citizenship, but I doubt it. ? Peter H. Schuck & Rogers M. Smith, Citizenship Without Consent: ?Illegal Aliens in the American Polity 116-17 (1985); ?Dan Stein & John Bauer, “Interpreting the 14th Amendment: ?Automatic Citizenship for Children of Illegal Immigrants,” 7 Stanford L. & Policy Rev. 127, 130 (1996).

[Haggis for Breakfast]

43. Wel;l, Lindsey is an attorney,

graduated from USC (the original USC, as in University of South Carolina).

Don't know if he specialized in constitutional law. Let's ask Laurence Tribe, who IS a constitutional scholar.

[zanana1]

36. I worry about who he will target next.

It isn't beyond the realm of possibility to wonder if naturalized citizens will be next. And after them, a new group would be targeted. The German people didn't believe that Hitler would harm anyone; gullibility is the enemy here.

[Javaman]

42. "I know all about the constitution! I know more about it than most lawyers!"

while he didn't say that, I could actually see him saying that.

[Demonaut]

45. it's citizens protected by the 14th that helps all citizens...what an idiot!

[linuxuser3]

46. Trump would have to say goodbye to his kids by Ivana

Carlos Alazraqui makes a good point

Link to tweet

But the truth of Ivana's path to citizenship here is even murkier than the desperation ploy Trump's pursuing using Fox News talking points to demonize the Honduran 'caravan' & the 14th Amendment's birthright clause https://qz.com/1346923/ivanka-trump-says-her-mother-ivana-came-to-the-us-legally-but-only-thanks-to-an-earlier-visa-scam/

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

48. Birthright citizenship isn't unfair to citizens. It is the very reason why most of us are citizens.

What the hell is he talking about?