Wildlife poachers in Kenya 'to face death penalty'

[OnlinePoker]

Source: The Independent

Wildlife poachers in Kenya will face the death penalty, the country’s tourism and wildlife minister has reportedly announced.

Najib Balala warned the tough new measure would be fast-tracked into law.

Existing deterrents against killing wild animals in the east African nation are insufficient, Mr Balala said, according to China’s Xinhua news agency.

So in an effort to conserve Kenya’s wildlife populations, poachers will reportedly face capital punishment once the new law is passed.

Read more: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/poachers-kenya-wildlife-death-penalty-capital-punishment-najib-balala-a8349966.html

---

Pretty extreme.

[dhol82]

1. Might be the only way to control the problem.

[MBS]

8. I think so, too. n/t

[IronLionZion]

2. That should make them think twice

whether it's really that profitable or if they should find other jobs

[MBS]

10. Yes, exactly.

Driving an entire species to extinction is at least a big a crime as killing a single human being.
And, because there is so much money involved (plus, drug lords and crime rings are now involved), nothing else has seemed to deter them.

Not to mention that rangers trying to protect animals from poachers are being killed by poachers at an alarming rate.

[HeartachesNhangovers]

3. Not as extreme as "shoot poachers on sight".

Kenya may be codifying the death penalty for poaching, but plenty of other jurisdictions have decided to skip the middle man:

https://qz.com/908867/kazirangas-ruthless-rangers-have-reduced-rhino-poaching-by-simply-gunning-down-poachers-at-sight/

Search for "shoot poachers on sight" and you will find lots of examples. Keep in mind that poachers would probably kill rangers if they thought they could get away with it.

What would sadden you more - the death of hundreds of armed poachers, or the extinction of a large animal species?

[mr_lebowski]

19. So easy for me to answer the latter it's kinda sad ...

Fuck Poachers ... they're way down there w/child molesters ...

Optimally, this law 'works' and nobody dies, they go find real work instead, and no animals die. Best possible outcome.

[Sunlei]

59. Real rhino conservation ranches complain because they don't allow canned hunting &

laws prevent horn sales (donations aren't enough revenue) they're closing.

They already cut down the rhino horns yearly to deter poachers but aren't allowed by law to sell them.

[montana_hazeleyes]

4. I am for it.

This is an emergency and needs super tough measures. They are destroying these animals to extinction for what? Trophies/supposed sex enhancers from rhino horns?

[Jedi Guy]

6. Are you in favor of the death penalty for crimes against humans?

[montana_hazeleyes]

9. In some cases, yes.

People like Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy... who there is no doubt about.

My problem with the death penalty otherwise, is the chance of really innocent people being put to death and of course the fact that POC and poor people receive it more.

[Igel]

15. And that'll be the case there, too.

Then again, pretty much everybody's "POC" and poor in this case. Most poachers are locals.

[montana_hazeleyes]

18. I understand that.

I guess I was hasty on this post because of emotional feelings and helplessness on what can stop this. I wish there was a way to get to the sickening ,remorseless evil people who buy and receive the products of this ....

[ChiTownDenny]

37. Are they feeding their families?

By all accounts carcasses are left to rot while the "precious" parts are removed and sold on the black market.

[bettyellen]

51. The parks all have buffer zones where locals can hunt to feed their families, but poaching is more

profitable, so they are tempted to get involved. I know in Tanzania they try to hire local residents to be guards and guides so the local economy gets an extra boost and some sense of stewardship too.

[Duppers]

27. I agree with your posts

In this thread.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

46. Isn't the government in Zimbabwe Black?

I’m assuming. In the US, I’d be concerned about racism fueling such a thing, but in Africa, I’m not worried about that piece.

They’re the ones who decided on this law. Finally!!! I’m for it.
Poachers are harming much more than just the poor individual animals. They are barbaric cold murderers.

[montana_hazeleyes]

56. A poster asked me if I believe in the dearth penalty

for crimes against humans. My answer was just from my view of what I know of here in the United States.
The situation in Zimbabwe is different.

[Jedi Guy]

5. How is this going to help, exactly?

Studies have shown over and over again that the death penalty doesn't reduce crime. That's one of the pragmatic arguments against capital punishment, to say nothing of the morality of state-sponsored killing.

[christx30]

7. You're about to be caught by the cops.

Under the old law, you’d be looking at jail time, maybe a fine. Under the new law, you’re looking at death. Your best bet to stay alive is to kill the cops on the way to arrest you.
And in a country like Kenya, it’s not like there are many other careers you can jump into.

[Jedi Guy]

14. Yeah, I don't see this law improving things.

It'll make desperate criminals even more likely to resort to extreme measures to avoid capture. I think you're correct.

[cab67]

11. Studies in Western countries have shown that.

I don't know if that would be true of a developing country like Kenya. And this is a very specific class of crimes.

My own feelings on it are mixed - I work in Kenya a lot, and something has GOT to be done to curtail poaching. But I do have a default opposition to capital punishment.

[Jedi Guy]

16. There are many unknown quantities here.

Will the death penalty have the same lack of effect in Kenya as it does here, as you point out? Perhaps, perhaps not. Are we willing to kill people for a maybe? I don't think that's a good idea.

It seems to me that, rather than executing people, it'd be a better approach to offer economic opportunities so that desperate people don't feel they must resort to poaching.

I realize that some are motivated by greed rather than need, since the profits can be really insane. I don't think there's much we can do to stop those folks, unfortunately.

Also, will all members of the hunting party be put to death, or only the one who pulls the trigger? We don't know.

There are just too many "we dunno" factors here for me to think executing people is a good idea. I agree that something must be done; I'm just not convinced this is the appropriate something.

[Calista241]

13. When you're sentenced to death here, that's 20+ years away.

If your sentence was to be carried out next week, you might behave differently.

[Jedi Guy]

17. Maybe, maybe not.

As I said in another post upthread, there are too many unknown factors here that need to be sorted out. Until they are, I can't get behind the state killing people because it might help.

The data we do have indicates that the death penalty isn't a deterrent. Until we have data to contradict those findings, I think executing people would be a mistake on a practical level, morality aside.

Taking someone's life based on a "maybe" is never the right answer, in my opinion.

[Honeycombe8]

23. It's because criminals don't think they'll be caught. That's no reason not to set sentences.

Otherwise, why bother sentencing them to anything?

Death penalty does matter. They know it's much more serious to kill law enforcement. They know that the whole system will slam down on them hard and likely cause them to be executed.

But as important as the death penalty, is death row. It is a much more restrictive way of life, than the other inmates have. They are isolated, amenities are restricted, communications are more restricted I think, time outside the cell is more restricted.

Regular prison is okay to some prisoners. Charlie Manson was a creature of prison and was comfortable there, he said. He functioned well, he said. Mass killer Richard Speck videotaped himself having a good time in prison. He got drugs, booze, exotic clothing...party time. He had been sentenced to death, but the US S.Ct. abolished that at around that time, so he lived a couple of decades until his death of natural causes, having a good ol' time (of sorts).

[7962]

20. If there werent 20-30 yrs from conviction to execution, that'd likely be different

But first the DP laws need to be changed. DP should only be sought in cases where there is ZERO doubt of guilt. And there are plenty of those out there.
Even now, most cases drag on for years based on appeals that have nothing to do with innocence.

[Honeycombe8]

22. I think the studies show that ANY sentence is not a direct deterrent....not death penalty.

That's because criminals don't think they'll be caught.

But of all the sentences, the death penalty DOES carry weight. Criminals often think twice before killing law enforcement. They know the ful weight of the system will fall down hard on them to convict and put to death, if they kill law enforcement, as opposed to killing an ordinary citizen. Hardened criminals, like serial killer Ted Bundy, do all they can usually to stay alive. They bargain, they offer information, they do anything to delay the inevitable, as they cling to life inside prison. Such "brave" criminals, when it comes to killing vulnerable people, become cowards when it comes to themselves losing their lives under more humane conditions than they delved out to others.

But in any event, criminal sentences are not just to deter. They are also to remove criminals from society and to punish for justice.

That there is no deterrent is of no consequence. Otherwise, there would be no point in having criminal laws, to begin with. The criminals don't dictate to society what laws to pass. Society does.

One poacher put to death is one killer who won't be killing animals and who has been made to pay for his crimes against his society and country.

[Jedi Guy]

24. So you support capital punishment for crimes against humans, then?

[Honeycombe8]

32. Like Hillary Clinton, yes I do...depending on the crime.

We don't execute people in America for killing animals, like that country does. And we don't execute corporate executives for killing people as a result of business decisions, like China does.

So since that country has the death penalty, and since the wildlife is a key component in its economy and is one of the most important natural resources it has, I think it's good to execute the poachers, since that country is a little loosey goosey in executions, anyway. Trying to deal with it other ways hasn't worked, so in desperation, it seems to be trying this way.

So good. The elephant population is down to a very low level, some species have been wiped out. There is a real danger in the world. I read that more than half of the world's wildlife population has been killed off in the last 20 years or so.

[Jedi Guy]

34. I think capital punishment should be contingent on two factors.

One, the nature of the crime. Certain crimes are more heinous than others, such as crimes against children, the elderly, the disabled, or other vulnerable groups of people. Two, capital punishment should only be used when there is absolutely, positively no doubt as to the guilt of the accused. People have been wrongfully executed before, so there must be zero doubt if that punishment is going to be used.

Insofar as Kenya's situation, there are still questions. Is the entire hunting party going to be executed if they're caught poaching, or just the person doing the actual shooting/killing? Are they only subject to capital punishment if they actually kill an animal, or does an attempt also result in execution? If a party is caught in the bush with the tools for poaching, but there's no evidence they've actually killed an animal or attempted to do so, can they be executed? Does capital punishment for poaching apply to minors?

Let's look back at what happened to Cecil the lion a few years ago. As I recall, the hunters were under the impression (or claimed they were) that it was a licensed hunt, and that their guides had deceived them. In that scenario, who gets executed? The guides, or the customer who shot and killed the animal? Or does everyone get executed, a kind of zero tolerance response?

I'm unconvinced that executing poachers will result in less poaching. As long as the financial incentive remains and people are desperate to feed their families due to economic factors, I don't see poaching going anywhere, unfortunately.

[Honeycombe8]

42. That's for Kenya to work out.

As long as "poacher" is killed. Remember that this is a poacher. Not a licensed safari.

As for the safaris...I don't think those guys aren't well aware of what they're shooting & whether it's a protected animal or not. They know. These aren't newbies.

These aren't men who wake up one day and decide to go kill some wildlife in Kenya, even though they've never been there before. Then they think...First, I have to buy a gun! No...these are people who know what they're doing.

But it's up to Kenya to decide. They know far more about who is really to blame than we do.

[George II]

12. Will donnie jr. and Eric be hunting there sometime soon?

[we can do it]

29. Beat me to it!

[Honeycombe8]

21. Good! nt

[Duppers]

25. Stop the Chinese who trade...

...in the ivory of elephants for trophies and carvings and rhino horns for their ineffective aphrodisiac "medicine."

"Chinese merchant gateways for ivory and rhino horns"
https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/chinese-merchant-gateways-ivory-and-rhino-horns

"Despite Ban, Rhino Horn Flooding Black Markets Across China

The country is pledged to end the trade in elephant ivory this year, but will it take steps to help save rhinos?"
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/wildlife-watch-rhino-horn-china/

The answer is NO!

These are desperate situations, calling for desperate measures. Park rangers protecting these animals are being murdered. They have the right to protect themselves and the dwindling populations of these animals.



A bit OT, but the cruelty of canned hunts also needs to be STOPPED.
As long as Western societies allow and approve of the sick display of hypo-machismo of insecure men trying to compensate for whatever and the sick
sadistic pleasure of some women, such slaughter will continue.

[Ferrets are Cool]

26. GOOD!!

[we can do it]

28. Fine with me.

[Plucketeer]

30. Making the hunters the hunted

threatening them with death - which unless it's a long and torturous death, is pretty fast and painless - all well and good. The impressive big game creatures we all learned to admire as kids are a highly visible thing that we can all "get behind" to protect. But WHERE are the deterrents to the MANY species being eliminated from the face of this whirling rock every day? The seemingly insignificant dowdy-feathered "sparrows" ( there are myriad distinct varieties of them) edged out by a high-dollar housing development - or slash & burn rain forest clearing - or islands of plastic trash in what ought to be pristine deep water havens - who gets a noose for those?

War on those trading in Rhino horn aphrodisiac? Yeah - hang that son-uva-bitch! War on some poor schmuck trying to grow a few vegetables for his hungry kids - and by doing so, eliminating the very special environment that a bird you never heard of loses it's toehold to for a patch of Taro roots - let's send them some aid.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

47. I feel you...

[Bayard]

31. I have no problem with this

Reduce the number of poachers, not the number of endangered species.

Of course, its easier to sit here in this country and say, let's kill Kenyan poachers. I have the same attitude with Americans that sit outside national parks, baiting wolves so they'll cross the boundary and get shot on sight. Or shooting them from helicopters.....

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. I'm not in favor of the death penalty, but in this case, ...

... nope, still not in favor of the death penalty.

Certainly not the poachers, who are at the lowest rung of a distribution chain.

[Jedi Guy]

35. Finally, someone with consistency!

I find it beyond bizarre that people who oppose the death penalty in general are suddenly shouting "Good!" at the idea of executing poachers.

[LanternWaste]

43. I find it bizarre

I find it bizarre you are unable to distinguish between the immediate and visceral reaction regarding animal cruelty with that same person's more thoughtful, considered position over time.

I stub my toe on the bedpost and scream at the bedpost. It's an immediate and visceral emotional response. Place me in a more formal setting with my peers, and I'd be the first to state my reaction was irrational.

But, if we ignore the studied response and focus only on the visceral, we certainly do get to pat ourselves on the back at the expense of others... and often, that's the goal whether we admit to ourselves or not, and regardless of whether we ignore our claim to self-righteousness as its own visceral reaction as well.

[Jedi Guy]

48. Blah blah blah.

Here you are to lecture someone on self-righteousness while flaunting your vocabulary in an effort to appear wise and sagacious, yet again. And in the process (oh the irony) you come off as more insufferably smug and self-righteous than the person you're lecturing. Might I suggest a new shtick? You could try doing this in rhyme, maybe. Oh, or alliteration! That'd be fun to read, at least, and it would be a more impressive display of your vocabulary.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

49. Ok, I agree that there are times the death sentence seems appropriate ;)

DEATH to whoever moved the coffee table so I stubbed my toe and banged my shin.

Between a poacher's capture and his trial, there should be time to consider whether "death" is the appropriate sentence, for society, for the poached species, for the poacher's family, for the person who hired the poacher, etc.

"Death" should never be the appropriate sentence, after the reasoned inspection of evidence and study of law.

Plus, if I think about it, I'm probably the one who moved the coffee table.

[BannonsLiver]

41. Best news I've heard all god damn day

Roast the fuckers.

[Americanno]

44. Hurray for the death penalty

Death penalty rocks.

[inwiththenew]

45. This is a lot like executing drug dealers

If you don't do anything to reduce the demand side of it there will always be someone to fill in the supply side.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

50. The "demand" may likely be in China, to a large degree.

I don't think anyone but the Chinese have any influence there. If I think that ground rhino horn will make me smart and rich or improve my sex life, then here's some money, go get me some. The government is probably mostly disinterested in some distant endangered species.

[hack89]

52. I predict more dead policemen and park rangers in Kenya

certainly no incentive now to surrender.

[romanic]

53. I'm okay with this.

Sorry. you have to go to extreme measures to cut the b.s. and protect those from harm.

[EarthFirst]

54. Just arrest the poacher; break a knee cap and drop them off the tailgate a few miles out...

Let nature decide.

[gyroscope]

55. Thank you Kenyan government

poachers and western game hunters should be executed on the spot imo. unfortunately these people can't be reasoned with. the only thing they understand is a bullet to the head.

[Devil Child]

57. Good ruling

Death to poachers.

[Sunlei]

58. very extreme. It's because animals off the big game canned hunt breeding ranches are poached.

Now they can kill 'uninvited locals' found on or near their 3,000 acre private game ranches.