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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:05 AM Apr 2018

'ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE' North Korea's Nuclear Test Site Has 'Collapsed'

Source: The Daily Beast



North Korea’s underground nuclear test site has become unusable after a large part of it collapsed, Chinese scientists say. Their evidence comes just one week after a surprise announcement from leader Kim Jong Un that North Korea would stop nuclear tests, with one researcher suggesting to the South China Morning Post that the collapse was the real reason for the unexpected suspension. The experts, led by researchers at the University of Science and Technology of China, have warned that another blast in the same spot and with similar yield to one in September, which is believed to have caused the collapse, could lead to “environmental catastrophe.” “The occurrence of the collapse should deem the underground infrastructure beneath mountain Mantap not be used for any future nuclear tests,” said an abstract for the study.

READ IT AT THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

###

Read more: https://www.thedailybeast.com/north-koreas-nuclear-test-site-has-collapsed?ref=home

61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
'ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE' North Korea's Nuclear Test Site Has 'Collapsed' (Original Post) DonViejo Apr 2018 OP
Well, this is not good. AllyCat Apr 2018 #1
This was pretty much guessed last fall Blue_Adept Apr 2018 #2
Really depressing and goes to show just how much concern and respect for the ... SWBTATTReg Apr 2018 #6
For a sobering look at US nuke testing, yonder Apr 2018 #11
Wow, that's fascinating PJMcK Apr 2018 #31
We've exploded nukes in the atmosphere... blugbox Apr 2018 #24
In the early 60's our elementary school teacher warned us not to eat the snow because it was Nitram Apr 2018 #57
It's worth posting this graphic again MountCleaners Apr 2018 #59
Not dump! SCVDem Apr 2018 #3
Very good.. mountain grammy Apr 2018 #19
I'll chip in for the airline ticket. usaf-vet Apr 2018 #30
Perhaps the head of the EPA ought to accompany him. forgotmylogin Apr 2018 #36
A "glowing" report and a chunk of Trinitite lagomorph777 Apr 2018 #45
Another link if you can't get to WSJ Phoenix61 Apr 2018 #4
dear leader's curious about face explained? yonder Apr 2018 #9
I hope 45 can infer this as an answer to forgotmylogin Apr 2018 #37
Thanks for that mountain grammy Apr 2018 #21
Thank you Phoenix 61 True Blue American Apr 2018 #41
Phoenix True Blue American Apr 2018 #43
No, I didn't find this wonderful Phoenix61 Apr 2018 #46
Well, glad to know True Blue American Apr 2018 #49
Holy crap. More gigantic living nightmares caused by little men. Guilded Lilly Apr 2018 #5
Surprise, surprise Achilleaze Apr 2018 #7
Well, at least we have Hanford. nt End Of The Road Apr 2018 #18
A more likely reason for suspending your nuclear program than Trump's negotiating skills... brooklynite Apr 2018 #8
But I thought all the credit was Pompeo's! LOL Native Apr 2018 #14
My guess is that China put its foot down - very firmly. KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #10
Yep. The Chinese read him the riot act dalton99a Apr 2018 #22
That would explain the 1st time train trip to China that he took last month. -nt poboy2 Apr 2018 #26
Does it ever True Blue American Apr 2018 #42
Thanks for posting...nt SWBTATTReg Apr 2018 #39
'The breakdown created a 'chimney' that could allow fallout to rise into the air' dalton99a Apr 2018 #12
I have been wondering when this would be remembered. yellerpup Apr 2018 #13
So rtracey Apr 2018 #15
You said it! True Blue American Apr 2018 #51
Totally honourable, though. BobTheSubgenius Apr 2018 #16
So.. let me get this straight. Turbineguy Apr 2018 #17
Cloverfield! Renew Deal Apr 2018 #20
So I guess this is the REAL reason their nuclear program is on hold Dopers_Greed Apr 2018 #23
No, Trump will take credit for the collapse too. dem4decades Apr 2018 #25
+1. "The North Korea mountain fell down because of me!" dalton99a Apr 2018 #27
Nothing is on hold Mad_Mongol Apr 2018 #29
I wonder what it did to underground acquifers and water Sanity Claws Apr 2018 #28
You saying it was not Trumps Hard work that caused NK to come to the table? Hannity will riversedge Apr 2018 #32
Why lead with a title that screams "ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE" when the article says Nitram Apr 2018 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author csziggy Apr 2018 #56
Before it is over the GOP will have exboyfil Apr 2018 #34
Trump did shovel True Blue American Apr 2018 #53
Bet Trump will not mention this real reason why testing has stopped Freethinker65 Apr 2018 #35
Bet you're right yonder Apr 2018 #48
The Chernobyl disaster was identified as a major contributing factor... yallerdawg Apr 2018 #38
Where is Troma Films when we need them? I'm picturing a 80 foot tall Kim Jung Un glowing green FSogol Apr 2018 #40
Oh great -- Trump thinks his crafty deal-making is the reason Kim Jong Un has decided KPN Apr 2018 #44
Is Trump too dumb to understand RockRaven Apr 2018 #47
The Bushes, Clinton, and Obama strategy worked. They let NK bomb itself into submission. 45 tried NCjack Apr 2018 #50
What Caused Radiation Spike in North West China scipan Apr 2018 #52
This is what I've been saying. longship Apr 2018 #54
Longship, any chance this situation can be monitored by IAEA? KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #58
Well, that would certainly be a start... longship Apr 2018 #60
Thanks for that insight. KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #61
Guess who will take full credit for this event. nt Ferrets are Cool Apr 2018 #55

SWBTATTReg

(22,166 posts)
6. Really depressing and goes to show just how much concern and respect for the ...
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:23 AM
Apr 2018

environment that these North K. have. If area around collapsed, I wonder what other ramifications will occur...did some of their nuclear scientists get caught in the collapse? Probably not, these guys are too valuable to the North K. Did leakage occur? Probably so, unless only verified visually (and not by onside/near site detectors). How large of an area was impacted? How much of the ground water was contaminated?

I'm not going to say that these guys were bad environmentally (they were), but the US military also has a history of contamination too, w/ over 800+ nuclear explosions during the days of the cold war (White Sands, Pacific, etc.). The Soviets did too. Everything was gung ho due to the raging Cold War.

Eventually testing migrated to just below ground, but even that was dangerous and eventually discontinued when the size of test blasts were not accurately estimated, and led to blasts escaping into the atmosphere (burst through the ground).

Maybe finally someone will learn ... somehow I doubt it.

yonder

(9,676 posts)
11. For a sobering look at US nuke testing,
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:37 AM
Apr 2018

use Google Earth to visit the area 50-100 miles northwest of Las Vegas, Nevada. All those little pits you see? You guessed it.

blugbox

(951 posts)
24. We've exploded nukes in the atmosphere...
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:31 AM
Apr 2018

So so many times.... and the ocean

To me, those are the worst offenders. Why? why why why

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
57. In the early 60's our elementary school teacher warned us not to eat the snow because it was
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 02:03 PM
Apr 2018

contaminated by atmospheric nuclear tests. I've heard that you shouldn't eat the yellow snow, but I guess this is like, "don't eat the snow that glows in the dark."

usaf-vet

(6,209 posts)
30. I'll chip in for the airline ticket.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:50 AM
Apr 2018

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2018, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe we should start a Go-Fund Zinke Explorations. When he returns he can give Trump a "glowing" report. And bring back a nice sample of the debris for Trump's desk.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
45. A "glowing" report and a chunk of Trinitite
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:44 AM
Apr 2018

Trinitite, also known as atomsite or Alamogordo glass, is the glassy residue left on the desert floor after the plutonium-based Trinity nuclear bomb test on July 16, 1945, near Alamogordo, New Mexico. The glass is primarily composed of arkosic sand composed of quartz grains and feldspar ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite

Phoenix61

(17,019 posts)
46. No, I didn't find this wonderful
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:45 AM
Apr 2018

sanity saving place until right after the awful, terrible, horrible thing happened a little over a year ago.

True Blue American

(17,988 posts)
49. Well, glad to know
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:50 AM
Apr 2018

You are just like me and found a great board of very smart people.

I knew a Phoenix about 10 years ago. Not here.

Achilleaze

(15,543 posts)
7. Surprise, surprise
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:24 AM
Apr 2018

North Koreans think and act like republicans - so no big surprise here that they have pissed & crapped on their own patch of the planet.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,494 posts)
10. My guess is that China put its foot down - very firmly.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:35 AM
Apr 2018
From the OP's link: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2143171/north-koreas-nuclear-test-site-has-collapsed-and-may-be-why-kim-jong-un

(snips)
North Korea’s mountain nuclear test site has collapsed, putting China and other nearby nations at unprecedented risk of radioactive exposure, two separate groups of Chinese scientists studying the issue have confirmed. The collapse after five nuclear blasts may be why North Korean leader Kim Jong-un declared last Friday that he would freeze the hermit state’s nuclear and missile tests and shut down the site, one researcher said.

A research team led by Wen Lianxing, a geologist with the University of Science and Technology of China in Hefei, concluded the collapse occurred following the detonation last autumn of North Korea’s most powerful thermal nuclear warhead in a tunnel about 700 metres (2,296 feet) below the mountain’s peak. The test turned the mountain into fragile fragments, the researchers found.

The mountain’s collapse and the prospect of radioactive exposure in the aftermath, confirms a series of exclusive reports by the South China Morning Post on China’s fears that Pyongyang’s latest nuclear test had caused a fallout leak. Radioactive dust could escape through holes or cracks in the damaged mountain, the scientists said.

The mountain’s surface had shown no visible damage after four underground nuclear tests before 2017. But the 100-kilotonne bomb that went off on September 3 vaporised surrounding rocks with unprecedented heat and opened a space that was up to 200 metres (656 feet) in diameter, according to a statement posted on the Wen team’s website on Monday.

“We can put a thick layer of soil on top of the collapsed site, fill the cracks with special cement, or remove the pollutants with chemical solution,” he said. “There are many methods to deal with the problem. All they need [to do] is ask.”
(end snips)
----------
This thing could potentially send radioactive particles over South Korea, Japan, China and other nations in the area, depending on prevailing winds. Ground water runoff could also wind up in the sea.

This should take the steam out of tRump's bluster....but maybe not......

yellerpup

(12,254 posts)
13. I have been wondering when this would be remembered.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 09:48 AM
Apr 2018

OF COURSE Kim Jong Un can't go forward with his nuclear threat after the earthquake that destroyed the testing site. Big incentive to 'make peace' with the US. He's disabled his own program.

 

rtracey

(2,062 posts)
15. So
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:04 AM
Apr 2018

So could this be the bigger news.... Not that trumps wonderful talking Kim Un into stopping the testing, but the fact that this was discovered, and used as another GOP "we're greater then anybody" talking point?

Turbineguy

(37,368 posts)
17. So.. let me get this straight.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:12 AM
Apr 2018

It was Pompeo (nominated by the guy who gets the best people) whose negotiating skills caused this collapse retroactively?

Dopers_Greed

(2,640 posts)
23. So I guess this is the REAL reason their nuclear program is on hold
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:30 AM
Apr 2018

Not because of the Orange Blob's masterful negotiation

Mad_Mongol

(86 posts)
29. Nothing is on hold
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:43 AM
Apr 2018

They've already tested workable designs, which means they have solved geometry and timing (triggering) issues. The only stumbling block left is miniturization. That is a design issue that can be modeled by numerical methods --a modest compute cluster, or a few thousand cpu- hours on AWS (@ ~$350/hr).

Though the delivery vehicle might be the problem... there's only so many surplus Russian rocket motors available.

Sanity Claws

(21,852 posts)
28. I wonder what it did to underground acquifers and water
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:43 AM
Apr 2018

I don't know the geology of the area but wonder whether this is going to affect the country's drinking water.

riversedge

(70,305 posts)
32. You saying it was not Trumps Hard work that caused NK to come to the table? Hannity will
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:55 AM
Apr 2018

be disappointed.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
33. Why lead with a title that screams "ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE" when the article says
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:56 AM
Apr 2018

"...another blast in the same spot and with similar yield to one in September...could lead to “environmental catastrophe." If that's the original title, I believe the person who posts it should not have quoted it. Or at least left off the "ENVIRONMENTAL CATASTROPHE" part.

Response to Nitram (Reply #33)

exboyfil

(17,865 posts)
34. Before it is over the GOP will have
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:20 AM
Apr 2018

the cultists believe that Trump personally dug out the cave prior to the test to ensure its collapse.

It worked for Reagan and the Cold War.

True Blue American

(17,988 posts)
53. Trump did shovel
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:57 AM
Apr 2018

2 small shovels full of dirt on a tree yesterday.

Then gave them a piece of cloth off an old chair. I bet the French will love that.

After all, they only gave us the Statue Of Liberty!

yonder

(9,676 posts)
48. Bet you're right
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:49 AM
Apr 2018

and other than what we've seen so far, I wonder if this account will sprout legs in our MSM as well? They should be hammering this story home while watching the redhats go crazy.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
38. The Chernobyl disaster was identified as a major contributing factor...
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:30 AM
Apr 2018

in the collapse of the Soviet Union, so much so that it was the initiating theme of a "Star Trek" movie, "Undiscovered Country" and the "Only Nixon could go to China" association with Kirk.

Maybe North Korea has determined they just can't afford nuclear programs anymore - under the present sanctions.

Time to game the buffoon in the White House.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
40. Where is Troma Films when we need them? I'm picturing a 80 foot tall Kim Jung Un glowing green
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:36 AM
Apr 2018

attacking Seoul while US fighter jets strafe him.

KPN

(15,650 posts)
44. Oh great -- Trump thinks his crafty deal-making is the reason Kim Jong Un has decided
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:43 AM
Apr 2018

to go dormant, meanwhile in the universe of reality, the earth is imploding. Fucking assholes (pardon my French). How about we stick the two of them together in a space capsule and send them to the nearest large black hole.

Why do people let this shit happen???!!! Mind boggling.

RockRaven

(15,002 posts)
47. Is Trump too dumb to understand
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:47 AM
Apr 2018

that this was the reason they even discussed suspending nuclear tests in the first place?

NCjack

(10,279 posts)
50. The Bushes, Clinton, and Obama strategy worked. They let NK bomb itself into submission. 45 tried
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:50 AM
Apr 2018

to stop their strategy from working by starting an unnecessary war.

scipan

(2,357 posts)
52. What Caused Radiation Spike in North West China
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:53 AM
Apr 2018

Radiation levels in a Chinese city nearly 2,000km from a North Korean nuclear test site spiked following Pyongyang’s latest and most powerful nuclear weapons test in September, according to Chinese scientists.

However, the spike in iodine-129 levels Xian was probably not related to the detonation of a 100-kilotonne hydrogen bomb in a tunnel at the Punggye-ri nuclear test site on September 3 and was more likely to have originated in Europe, they said.

The spike was recently declassified by the Chinese Academy of Sciences, prompting heated discussion among researchers about its possible cause, with some disputing the Europe theory.

From September 3 to 11, levels of iodine-129 in Xian, capital of Shaanxi province in northwestern China, jumped to at least 4.5 times the average, according to readings picked up by instruments at the academy’s Institute of Earth Environment, which is based in the city.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2125448/what-caused-radiation-spike-xian-north-korean-blast-european

longship

(40,416 posts)
54. This is what I've been saying.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 12:07 PM
Apr 2018

And it took a few tests for them to solve the initiator problem. The first couple tests were small, on the order of a yield of conventional explosives. Conclusion? Their initiators did not work right. The assembly blew apart before the chain reaction could get going. No nuclear detonation.

I'll also say that I don't believe that DPRK has a fusion bomb. The last big blast was well within the realm of large fission bombs.

Rule number one with DPRK...

Take their claims with a grain of salt. Don't believe what they claim. Verify it first.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,494 posts)
58. Longship, any chance this situation can be monitored by IAEA?
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 07:43 PM
Apr 2018

Wouldn't the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) be the logical agency to monitor long-term environmental effects? I certainly don't think we and our allies (eg, Japan and S. Korea) can trust the Chinese to properly monitor and report it. This leakage could get into the air as well as the ocean and contaminate fish stocks.

longship

(40,416 posts)
60. Well, that would certainly be a start...
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:11 PM
Apr 2018

However, it is pretty damned difficult to hide releases of those daughter products when they are leaked. Remember Chernobyl? Everybody in the world was well aware of the accident well before the Soviets admitted it. In fact, the Soviets HAD to release the information because it had already been exposed by scientists all over the world.

Now Chernobyl was much, much worse of a situation than likely has occurred in the DPRK, however of the daughter products of Uranium fission, many are long lived. One just cannot keep such things secret for long.

Mr. Kim has undoubtedly been told this, and if that last greater than 100Kton explosion has resulted in their test site to collapse -- and I would be very surprised if it hadn't -- he knows that his nuclear test regime is finished.

Any intervention by the UN (IEAE) would have to negotiated with the DPRK, as I am not sure that they are on very friendly terms. However recent overtures certainly indicates that something has changed. Maybe something rather important. That certainly might be something like their last test going rather horribly wrong.

My opinion is that we're going to have to see. The wild card may very well be not Mr. Kim, but Mr. Drumpf. (Horrors!!!)

Thank you for your response.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,494 posts)
61. Thanks for that insight.
Wed Apr 25, 2018, 11:15 PM
Apr 2018

Not being well versed on all of IAEA's activities, I was mainly interested in knowing if any agency automatically takes charge of ring-fencing an incident like this to plan a monitoring profile, install additional monitors as needed, and compile the data. I know there are nuclear monitors around the globe, but not sure of who is in charge of those. I do know as a comparison, for example, the global system of earthquake monitors are quite well coordinated.

Even when international inspectors are not allowed within the borders where an incident occurs, it seems in the public interest to track particle levels in areas outside the borders - particularly downwind and down-stream.

It would be interesting to read a summary of the on-site data the Chinese scientists collected - but we'll probably never see it.

......

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