Conservatives urge Trump to grant pardons in Russia probe

[DonViejo]

Source: Politico




As special counsel Robert Mueller builds his case, relatives of former national security adviser Michael Flynn are among those pressing the president to use his unique legal power and 'put these defendants out of their misery.'

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN 02/19/2018 07:16 AM EST

After months of criticizing special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia probe, President Donald Trump’s supporters are issuing increasingly bold calls for presidential pardons to limit the investigation’s impact.

“I think he should be pardoning anybody who’s been indicted and make it clear that anybody else who gets indicted would be pardoned immediately,” said Frederick Fleitz, a former CIA analyst and senior vice president at the conservative Center for Security Policy.

The pleas for mercy mainly extend to the four former Trump aides who have already been swept up in the Russia probe: former campaign manager Paul Manafort, former deputy campaign manager Rick Gates, former national security adviser Michael Flynn and former campaign foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos. But they don’t stop there.

“It’s kind of cruel what’s going on right now and the president should put these defendants out of their misery,” said Larry Klayman, a conservative legal activist. “I think he should pardon everybody — and pardon himself.”

Read more: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/19/trump-russia-pardons-mueller-flynn-417094

[janterry]

1. The sad thing is that I bet house and senate republicans

would be okay with this

[Crash2Parties]

34. Esp. considering how many of them took Russian money or benefitted from election interference.

[onetexan]

43. not if we can pull it off and regain the House and/or Senate

hopefully the tables w/ be turned and Dems can start impeachment to get this psychopath out of office & hauled off to jail. Him, Ryan & Mcconnell are the top 3 i want gone first, then Nunes & the dunces who've enabled this illegitimate DOTUS.

[janterry]

46. Some days I am hopeful

other days, not so much. I sure am trying, though

[hlthe2b]

2. Larry Klayman is one HACK lawyer: "I think he should pardon everybody and pardon himself."

Last edited Mon Feb 19, 2018, 11:55 AM - Edit history (1)

There was a reason Nixon (advised by a litany of constitutional lawyers) did NOT try to pardon his way out of Watergate.

[getagrip_already]

4. Still, it is untested - the Constitution does NOT say he can't do it

The powers are not limited by the constitution. If he pardoned people, the courts would have to honor it until a federal judge issued a stay, and then ultimately, the SCOTUS would need to rule on it.

There are likely 4 votes on the SCOTUS in favor of him being able to do it, and 4 against. Roberts is the only question. The originalists would never agree to limit the power.

[hlthe2b]

12. I honestly don't see Roberts going along.

nor Kennedy, which I take as a "given"

[getagrip_already]

15. maybe not, but how long will it take to...

get through lower courts and for the scotus to issue a decision?

And what if an appelate court rules to deny the stay?

Manafort walks free and can leave the country. Muehler's case gets much weaker if people aren't afraid of lying under oath. The republicans have cover saying see, there was nothing there.

It will be a mess. Which is why putin may tell him to do it at some point.

[hlthe2b]

19. I think it would be expedited to the Supreme Court. Frankly I don't see District courts

willing to touch it.

[shanny]

16. I doubt if Kennedy or Roberts would go along,

the hacks--Thomas, Alito and Gorsuch--certainly would.

And btw even an "originalist" (to the extent that is a thing, and not just a dodge) might have a problem with a president acting as both the defendant and the judge (pardoner) in his own case.

[getagrip_already]

22. what scares me is thinking back to bush-v-gore...

and how the then scotus basically crafted the decision to have no impact on future cases and went against past decisions stressing states rights.

They basically made a political call and said this doesn't apply to any other case.

They can do it again. Different players, same result.

[shanny]

35. Good point.

But Roberts in particular has shown an unwillingness to do something too blatantly partisan (he didn't vote to overturn Obamacare outright, although he did insert the poison pill of optional Medicaid expansion) so I am hopeful that he will not run roughshod over English common law (the source of the objection I mentioned above) for the likes of Trump.

[StevieM]

20. I don't know how any of the justices would feel about this kind of pardon. But it important to note

that John Roberts is no moderate or non-partisan. He is an extremely partisan Republican who wants to use his job, and the court, to help the GOP agenda.

[Hav]

3. What a cruel world we live in

when we can't even launder money or be traitors, imagine the horror.

[Turbineguy]

5. Gosh. That's a good idea!

We should have put Charlie Manson in the White House, that way he could have pardoned his cult members and himself.

You're a fuckin genius, Klayman.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

6. If Trump-Russia is nothing, like Klayman would say, then a pardon is not appropriate.

If the guilty pleas of Flynn and Papadopoulos and the indictments of Manafort and Gates have nothing to do with Russia, then there is nothing special about their cases that merit pardons.

If Trump-Russia is real (yes it is), then pardons would be obstruction of justice and a miscarriage of justice; even though pardoned people lose their Fifth Amendment protection (no longer need it) and can be compelled to testify fully and completely.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

7. As far as I know, only Republicons have been pardoned for electoral/gvmt crimes. Is this true?

Nixon, Scooter Libby, Sheriff Arpaio come to mind. Oliver North almost got pardoned but escaped on a legal technicality. (Legal technicalities are there for good purposes, but even if evidence is obtained by tainted routes the evidence is still true. He committed crimes.)

[deurbano]

8. Is that Larry Klayman of Judicial Watch? Their hypocrisy (as always!!!) is staggering.

Let's hope these greedy, corrupt, treasonous assholes have all committed crimes in states with Democratic state AGs, too. I mean, the absolute corruption is accompanied by astonishing levels of stupidity, so...

[Lithos]

9. Double edged sword

And this is where Mueller is a genius...

In addition to grounds of obstruction blowing back on Trump, the charges now include money-laundering at a Federal level. Anyone who accepts the pardon would be admitting guilt and thus immediately defenseless to charges from the State Level.

L-

[DeminPennswoods]

10. Flynn's cooperation agreement

calls for him to cooperate with both Mueller's investigation and any relevent state investigation. Trump could pardon Flynn tomorrow, but Schneiderman or one of the other state AGs would just pick up the case. Trump lives in NYC and does most of his business there, so Schneiderman will be licking his chops.

[Lithos]

11. Yep...

And I've read Flynn has already had his "Queen for the Day" meeting(s) meaning he's already sung under oath.

L-

[Nitram]

13. Urging the grant of pardons is obstruction of justice. they won't have any reason to testify

if they get pardons.

[SunSeeker]

37. It is obstruction re the federal charges. But they're still subject to state charges. nt

[Kablooie]

40. They could all easily be pardoned for obstruction of justice too.

[Nitram]

42. I'm not sure it's that easy. The pardon power has limits.

“I don't think the president's power is all that absolute, as people have been suggesting,” California Representative Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, told ABC News’ “This Week” Sunday. “The president cannot pardon people if it's an effort to obstruct justice, if it's an effort to prevent Bob Mueller and others from learning about the President's own conduct. So, there are limitations.”

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-pardon-powers-limit-mueller-indictment-695780

[Kablooie]

45. Good to know. Thanks.

[watoos]

14. I'm pretty sure

that a pardon would make it worse for Trump. It would keep Flynn and others out of jail but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have to testify. Once they are pardoned I believe they can't invoke the 5th Amendment and would be obligated to answer all questions.

[Kaleva]

29. And if they lie, they could be nailed for that.

[OhNo-Really]

17. Next Bot Campaign #PardonPatriots or something equally mind bending

[DFW]

18. No, they don't

REPUBLICANS urge that. There aren't any true conservatives left in that party. Just right wing extremist hacks.

[McCamy Taylor]

21. Their "pardon" is another person's "coup".

What does the Constitution say about one branch (in this case the Executive) stepping all over the powers of another (the Judiciary)? Anyone? I know it is the voters, but what if the White House also unilaterally tries to shut down the elections? States control the elections and if all the states under Red control decided to cancel the 2018 midterms, what happens then? Anyone?

[Jedi Guy]

44. If states unilaterally cancel elections...

Then we're probably so far gone we'll be looking at Civil War Round Two. I can't imagine the population just shrugging off cancelled elections. It'd be chaos and total constitutional crisis. I hope to hell we're never in that situation, but with Dolt 45 in the White House nothing would surprise me.

[TalenaGor]

23. I thought a pardon required a guilty plea/conviction? and

I thought someone cannot be pardoned by a 'co-conspirator' and also - that there cannot be pardons on State chanrges which is why NY AG is involved - to secure state charges...

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

24. I can think of other ways to do it.

Doesn't the Constitution provide a remedy to put traitors out of their misery?

What the hell kind of excuse is that to circumvent the rule of law, anyway? I know Trump has shown no regard for the judicial system before (i.e., Sheriff Joe's pardon), but this would be a new low.

I wonder if the Repugs -- who'd just as soon this whole mess would go away by November -- realize that if IQ45 tried to pardon people to obstruct a federal investigation in which he is the prime suspect, it would go straight to the SCOTUS without delay, and the Court might do the correct thing, for once, and rule against the pardons unanimously, as they did in U.S. v. Nixon and the tapes. I'm not certain even this Court wants to give the President absolute power, unchecked by any of the two other branches of government.

We've already seen him blow off a law he doesn't like (enforcing sanctions against the Russians). Using his pardon powers to stop an investigation into himself and his family -- but mainly himself. F*ck Jared, Don Jr., and Eric (he'd like to f*ck Ivanka, but that's a different matter) -- would be a huge step toward making our country the authoritarian state that Bush Jr. had said he wanted. "This would be so much easier if it was a dictatorship. Of course, I'd have to be the dictator," W. said while he was in power. I guess he foresaw that the next Republican president would believe the same thing.

Personally, I don't think he'll do it, but I've been wrong before about IQ45, including that he'd be elected.

[turbinetree]

25. SO, Fredrick Fleitz, you just think the "rule of law" should be just thrown out the fucking window

and that people that have committed possible treason and other dubious things like lying to federal agents and others should just get a fucking pass.......................really, FUCK that SHIT............

Your Quote:
“I think he should be pardoning anybody who’s been indicted and make it clear that anybody else who gets indicted would be pardoned immediately,” said Frederick Fleitz, a former CIA analyst and senior vice president at the conservative Center for Security Policy.


So with your mind set going forward..........................do you think people, that committed treason and agents got / get wacked, do you fucking think these individuals should get a fucking pass if they comprised the agents lives and individuals were subject to "blackmailed" to provide top secret classified information to foreign operatives, should get a pass?..............

Or that they spoke with FSB intelligence agents at your republican platform, to have sanctions lifted, when a foreign power attacked the democratically elected country in the Ukraine ............. and these same individuals did not inform the United States government that they were foreign agents, until they were caught in a lie and got moola..................... .

Or better yet that over 130 people now in the white house can be comprised (blackmailed), because they have pending or failed back ground checks, and that some of these people may have LIED on there FS86 FORM,................................so just fuck the "rule of law"-------------

Go to Russia, they will have open arms for you, and just as a side note look at what the Chinese did to agents that worked for the CIA......................you do fucking realize that the person that helped in these murders got caught coming back into the US


https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/05/report_china_executed_at_least_a_dozen_cia_agents_from_201012.html

[Gothmog]

26. The trumpies are getting nervous

[DonViejo]

28. Can you think of anything worse than a nervous paranoid?

At the moment, I'm hard pressed to come up with anything

[enid602]

27. Tomorrow's headline?

"Trump pardons 13 Russian Nationals."

[ffr]

30. These conservative enablers are just precious!

[AtheistCrusader]

31. But who would put those defendants out of OUR misery?

[FailureToCommunicate]

32. Seems like only yesterday...

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=&w=1484

[Beartracks]

33. Pardons don't mean the person is innocent. On the contrary...

... needing a pardon means the person is guilty.

==========

[videohead5]

36. The states

I thought I read if Trump pardons anyone some of the states would bring charges?...presidential pardons only work for federal charges.

[malthaussen]

38. A pardon for treason? What a scrumptious idea!

Yeah, I know that technically, we're not talking about treason, but I'd say that's what it amounts to.

-- Mal

[nolabels]

39. Other than an aptitude for inflicting harm with ineptitude on the people in sphere of influence.....

around him mostly we haven't really seen much real positive action. Keeping a wife / girl-friend beater in a job until the last possible minute should be a clue on how things could transpire, as such.

[highplainsdem]

41. Sheldon Whitehouse: Want a road to impeachment? This is it.

Link to tweet

Found that thanks to a retweet/comment from Preet Bharara:

Link to tweet

[syringis]

47. Where do they got the idea a pardon will free from investigation ?

And top of all : Trump pardoning himself...

Trump CANNOT pardon himself. It is a universal principle of Law : you can't be both judge and jury. You can't judge yourself.

Another point :

Even if Trump pardon the already indicted or the coming ones, it will not stop Mueller. He is free to continue his investigations.

A pardon might just make thing getting worse, very worse. If someone is pardoned and if he accept the pardon, he recognize being guilty. He will also lose his 5th amendment privilege.

In other words, pardon at this stage is the stupidest move to make....

I'm not familiar with US Law but I felt free to give a point of view because it is a universal principle.

We do have an equivalent, not exactly the same process but the general idea is the same.