Pastor Convicted in Parental Kidnapping Case (involving ex-lesbian and daughter)

[alp227]

Source: The New York Times

After only four hours of deliberation, a federal jury in Burlington, Vt., found an Amish-Mennonite pastor guilty of abetting international parental kidnapping in a widely publicized case involving same-sex unions and conservative Christian opposition to homosexuality.

The pastor, Kenneth L. Miller of Stuarts Draft, Va., could face up to three years in prison. He was convicted of helping Lisa A. Miller flee to Nicaragua with her daughter, Isabella Miller-Jenkins, in September 2009 to evade court-ordered visits with Ms. Miller's former partner in a civil union in Vermont.

After the verdict, about 100 of Mr. Miller's supporters from the Beachy Amish-Mennonite sect, the women in traditional long dresses and head scarves, gathered outside the courthouse to sing "Amazing Grace" and other hymns.

After splitting up with the former partner, Janet Jenkins, in 2003, Ms. Miller, who is not related to Mr. Miller, declared herself a born-again Christian, denounced homosexuality, soon began interfering with visits and tried to strip Ms. Jenkins of her legal rights as a parent. Ms. Miller moved to Virginia and, in 2009, as a frustrated Family Court judge in Vermont threatened to transfer custody of the girl, disappeared with her daughter.

Read more: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/us/pastor-kenneth-l-miller-convicted-in-parental-kidnapping-case.xml

[DURHAM D]

1. For additional background and Liberty University's involvement -

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/lisa-miller

[Archae]

2. Is Lisa Miller and the little girl still missing?

[DURHAM D]

7. Yes -

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Vermont-case-involving-religion-gay-issues-begins-3767661.php

and better article - NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us/trial-for-kenneth-miller-accused-of-aiding-in-a-kidnapping.html

Another article from the NY Times - Read this one first -

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/a-civil-union-ends-in-an-abduction-and-questions.html?pagewanted=all

[1StrongBlackMan]

3. Having grown up in a community church ...

that maintained close relations with the mennonite church ... I'd say no (very few) observant Mennonites would be involved in aiding the kidnapping of a child BECAUSE of the same-sex relationship. I found the Mennonite Church to be among the most tolerant of all orders.

However, if there was evidence of abuse ... maybe.

[DURHAM D]

8. There is NO evidence of abuse by the other mother.

I strongly resent your implication.

The abuse is from the church and the runaway mother.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us/trial-for-kenneth-miller-accused-of-aiding-in-a-kidnapping.html


Start here -

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/a-civil-union-ends-in-an-abduction-and-questions.html?pagewanted=all

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. No offense intended ...

I am not attributing the actions to the church; but rather to the pastor. As I indicated, the Mennonite doctrine is tolerant on GLBT and Same-Sex matters. Though individual pastors may not be.

My statement regarding abuse, was meant to offer an instance were a doctrinal Mennonite pastor would act.

[DURHAM D]

39. Nonsense -

they are "tolerant" of gays only if they are and remain celibate.

[1StrongBlackMan]

49. Not in MY experience ...

MY experience has me witness the Mennonite church's out-reach to the GBLT community in the provision of social services and supportive services.

While the church might not be as accepting of the orientation within it's ranks, it is tolerate outside of its walls.

But then, again, that his just been my experience; your's may differ.

[yardwork]

12. This is an Amish-Mennonite order. I grew up near a very large Amish community.

The Amish are among the least tolerant people I've ever encountered. Their attitudes toward women are particularly bad. Incestual rape, for instance, is widely tolerated. If the children and women complain, they are the ones who are punished.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. I agree that the Amish ...

the Amish-Mennonite and even traditional Mennonite orders are patriarchal, sexist and, even abusive, within their church; but they tend to be tolerant, or more accurately, unconcerned with the activities of those outside the order.

[obamanut2012]

46. They are extrememly intilerant of LGBT

[yardwork]

52. I can confirm that. No tolerance whatsoever for LGBT or any othe progressive values, really.

The romanticism around the Amish surprises me. They have a lot in common with the Taliban.

[cali]

26. You are wrong. flat wrong.

It was solely because of the same-sex relationship. No maybe about it. Tons of evidence. I live in Vermont. And Jenkins is a day care provider and there has never been an accusation of abuse- even from the piece of shit Miller.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. Again ...

I did not say, nor mean to imply, that there was any abuse ... I only offered that as an instance where a doctrinal Mennonite pastor would act.

[obamanut2012]

45. The Mennonite Church is very intolerant of LGBT folks

As well as ruining most of the puppy mills in the US (that the Amish don;t run).

[dsc]

4. He should be jailed for life

make an example of him.

[MissMarple]

5. What?....Seriously?

Is that even a choice in the sentencing laws?

[dsc]

6. yes seriously

Kidnapping, the crime he made possible here, is punished by life in prison. He should get that very same punishment.

[MissMarple]

13. Well, perhaps a stone or a noose would be in order...

for your purposes.

[dsc]

21. I am against the death penalty

but I would feel no compunction about him getting life. sadly apparently he can only get 3 years. It is scandalous that he will be free in 3 years while a person who has 2 rocks of crack can get decades behind bars.

[MissMarple]

43. Our sentencing laws are tragically inconsistent, I agree.

[rebecca_herman]

20. Doesn't appear to be an option for the charge he was found guilty of

Article says 3 years is the max.

[riderinthestorm]

10. Jenkins will no doubt never see her daughter again. The church is willfully hiding her

and Lisa Miller.

What punishment do you think is fair in light of the knowledge that somebody purposefully disappeared your child into a cult, forever?

While I wouldn't go so far as the death penalty, I do believe this crime is so heinous (the child is going to end up brainwashed into a subservient patriarchal cult) it demands something pretty severe. Jenkins must be in terrible pain - knowing her daughter is alive and will be raised in such a hideous situation, never having contact with her again.

[DURHAM D]

11. And hiding her far, far away...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/us/a-civil-union-ends-in-an-abduction-and-questions.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

[MissMarple]

15. Please refer to posts 13 and 14.

We are supposed to be the civilized adults. Perhaps I am mistaken.

[DURHAM D]

22. What's your point?

I gather you think the kidnapping by the cult was a reasonable reaction to a lesbian mother who had visiting rights.

Is that the problem - THAT LESBIAN?

[MissMarple]

14. The law, apparently, doesn't allow for that.

You are going vigilante. Should we all go out and establish our own form of justice?

[riderinthestorm]

16. Advocating for a stiff sentence is going "vigilante"?

I don't think so. The judge will rule but I really hope its life in prison. The cult apparently believes that disappearing children for religious purposes and brainwashing is okay.

No fucking way if you ask me. Slap that shit down and impose a maximum sentence.

[MissMarple]

18. He faces up to a three year sentence.

I, in no way, defend this person. If you want to change the law advocate for that. I might join you. An "off with head" gesture, no.

[DURHAM D]

23. You are defending the act of kidnapping by a cult leader

with your lame off-point comments.

[riderinthestorm]

25. Has anyone advocated for the death penalty here? You're addressing non-existent arguments

I have no idea what your point is other than you appear to be horrified(?) that the rest of us are horrified(!) at this crime, and that we're advocating for the full measure of justice.

[Mosby]

53. He should stay in prison at least until the child turns 21.

[DURHAM D]

9. I agree.

[cali]

27. That's ridiculous and under the law, he couldn't be. He faces up to 3 years.

[dsc]

30. really

every day in this country people get life for tiny amounts of drugs and small violent crimes. This person made possible a kidnapping of a child, who still hasn't been found BTW. Kidnapping in this country is punished by life in prison.

[cali]

31. so you're saying that long sentences for tiny amounts of drugs are fine?

And it's clear you know jack shit about the case or the law governing it. that couldn't be more clear.

[dsc]

33. no I'n not

but I think since we as a society evidently decided that such sentences are fair then I think a life sentence for making a kidnapping possible is perfectly in order. This child is likely gone forever and being raised by a hate filled cult.

[DURHAM D]

32. Oh my goodness - have you seen this?

Lesbian Mom Of Kidnapped Daughter Files Organized Crime Suit Against Multiple Christian Organizations

http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/2012/08/lesbian-mom-of-kidnapped-daughter-files.html

Janet Jenkins is a brave woman.

[MissMarple]

17. Well, we seem to be having a "piggy has the conch" moment.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph...give me patience.

Not you, alp227.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

19. What are you talking about?

[DURHAM D]

24. I have no clue what she is doing.

[frylock]

38. pearl clutching..

will someone please ready the fainting couch?

[yardwork]

29. It appears to be a reference to the novel Lord of the Flies

in which the character Piggy is murdered by a gang of children.

I have no idea why that would come up in reference to this kidnapping case.

[yardwork]

28. Why are you comparing this to Lord of the Flies?

Would you care to clarify?

[DURHAM D]

34. See post #32 above.

perhaps there is a god...

Edit: And perhaps the Feds will bring the appropriate charges.

[MissMarple]

42. It was a bit obscure, sorry.

I believed the "make an example if him" was way over the top. That isn't justice. But, I suppose it was a very emtional response to a tragic event. We have sentencing laws to insulate us from arbitrary punishments. Devolving into vigilantism and vengence is something we have seen too much of, especially since September 11, 2001. Are the sentencing laws fair, just, and consistent? No, and neither is our tax code and ahost of other things.

I was reacting to the extreme demands of the other poster. I expect better from DUers, not calling for life imprisonment on the basis of newspaper articles. "The Lord of the Flies" illustrated how close we are to savagery.

[dsc]

44. making an example is one part of why we have punishment

it is called deterrence. The fact is a famous conservative has called for an underground railroad to do what was done in this case. Deterrence is necessary.

[MissMarple]

48. I agree deterrence is a factor, but lengthy incarceration is not a ruling factor.

Certainty of being caught and certainty of being convicted are imperative elements. And the individual must be rational and able to be influenced by these for deterrance to work. Ideologues, religious or otherwise, may not view the deterrent as a more rational person would. This guy is on a mission from "god", ideology will find a way. Consistently catching and sentencing these is individuals is key far above alife sentence. The other thing to consider is if a sentence is viewed to be too punitive, as more people are beginning to understand about our drug sentencing laws. Things went pretty wacko in the '80s with "get tough on crime" and "third strike" laws. Things like that don't modify or deter behaviors.

You touched on a deeply held pet peeve of mine and I was seeing torches and pitchforks. I just think we have had enough of that. But, just to be clear, the guy should be charged, tried and if convicted, sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. I certainly hope this turns out well for the child.

[dsc]

50. the fact they are harder to deter means the sentence should be longer

yes swift certainty is good too.

[elehhhhna]

55. they should get extra charges for a hate crime. And,

if this shit stands, next up: kidnapping pregnant women to save their fetuses

[yardwork]

51. Your reference wasn't obscure. I think it is a little OTT to accuse DUers of being savages.

Nobody on DU has the power to affect this person's sentencing. Venting from people tired of the constant abuse that is heaped on gay people is to be expected from empathetic people. It seems to me that some posters in this thread are showing a lot more empathy for the perpetrator of a crime than they are for people who are directly affected every day by homophobia. A kind comment or two would go a long way toward getting everybody back on the same page.

Food for thought.

[MissMarple]

54. Yes, food for thought.

I am sorry for the pain caused by the homophobic and the bigoted. Kidnapping a child from a loving parent for any reason is unforgivable. This happens all too often for religious, cultural and selfish reasons.

I have no empathy at all for the persons responsible in the kidnapping of Isabella. It is good to see that a RICO suit has been filed. I wish Janet Jenkins great success. The RICO suit may be the best way to address this. They need to go after them all, not just the pastor. These people make a mockery of the Christian faith.

Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And, I didn't call or accuse DUers of being savages. The veneer of civilization can be all too thin. Also, as another poster claimed, I don't clutch at pearls, although I do wear them. Putting that guy in jail for life would make a martyr of him, then you would see some real pearl clutching from the "christian" ladies.

Peace

[trayfoot]

40. Unusual ro read something about my community

in the national news!!! I know who the preacher is, but did not know all this was going on. It really has not been covered much at all in the local press!

[DURHAM D]

41. It has not been covered that much in our own press.

At least joemygod has it.

[Veritas Omnia Vincit]

47. questions

I don't know enough about this case but some sources have reported that when the couple decided to become parents Ms. Jenkins decided against being named as a parent on the birth certificate.

Is that accurate?

I ask because I am curious to understand how a couple can have a child together gay or straight, and then when one of them isn't listed on the birth certificate how that affects parental rights.

Was there an adoption in place?

It's clear she violated the law, and is now an FBI fugitive and I hope she is caught and prosecuted.

I just want to wrap my head around all of this. How does it work with straight couples when in a second marriage the non biological parent has bonded with the step children but the couple divorces? Is the non-biological step parent also entitled to visitation rights? And could that parent be granted custody in the event the other biological ex was dead?

Thanks for any attempt to clarify, I appreciate the assistance. This all gets murky in my head at times.