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TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:05 PM Oct 2017

Las Vegas shooting death toll rises to 58, no apparent connection to terror

Source: ABC News

At least 58 people were killed and 515 were injured in Las Vegas on Sunday night when a gunman opened fire on a music festival crowd from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino. It was the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history.

The "nonstop gunfire," according to one witness, sent more than 22,000 country music fans scrambling for their lives. Police say the lone suspect had at least 10 rifles when he was found dead in a Mandalay Bay hotel room.

Terrified bystanders ducked, ran, then sprang into action -- frantically caring for the wounded. As ambulances rushed to the scene, concert-goers made makeshift stretchers out of police barricades. They plugged wounds with their bare hands and used their clothing to try to stanch eachother's bleeding. At least one man described a stranger dying in his arms.

* * *
The motive was unclear. Officials said at a news conference this morning they have found no connection between the shooting and any international terrorist group.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/50-dead-400-injured-las-vegas-deadliest-shooting/story?id=50223240

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Las Vegas shooting death toll rises to 58, no apparent connection to terror (Original Post) TomCADem Oct 2017 OP
Stephen Paddock Was A TERRORIST. PERIOD.... LovingA2andMI Oct 2017 #1
Even when ISIS claims credit, media still can't acknowledge white terrorists IronLionZion Oct 2017 #7
Exactly... LovingA2andMI Oct 2017 #9
What a terrorism act is has been explained to you before, but Hortensis Oct 2017 #18
He won't be charged with anything. He is dead. whopis01 Oct 2017 #34
Linking to your own thread doesn't prove it. Inkfreak Oct 2017 #26
Mental instability get the red out Oct 2017 #31
It gets a casual mention every time. And then ignored. Inkfreak Oct 2017 #32
also it doesn't help bdamomma Oct 2017 #33
I guess terror only applies to Islamic extremists, otherwise it's just a The_Casual_Observer Oct 2017 #2
Today's Excuses for Stephen Paddock Include.... LovingA2andMI Oct 2017 #11
"no...connection to terror"??? handmade34 Oct 2017 #3
I think the distinction is motive MosheFeingold Oct 2017 #4
too subtle for me handmade34 Oct 2017 #5
A distinction, yes. yagotme Oct 2017 #6
According to NRS 202.4415, it's terrorism!!! atreides1 Oct 2017 #10
You don't know his motives IronLionZion Oct 2017 #13
maybe he didn't like country music. AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #20
I don't really care for it myself, yagotme Oct 2017 #22
That Has Been One Of.... LovingA2andMI Oct 2017 #25
I doubt that he cared it was country music lapfog_1 Oct 2017 #27
It's called Gallows Humor. AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #29
I think the distinction is that brown people didn't do the shooting. 6000eliot Oct 2017 #24
No connection to any organized terrorist group I'm sure that what they meant rocktivity Oct 2017 #15
There never is any connection to terror... Rustyeye77 Oct 2017 #8
And how is a refugee ban suppose to prevent this? Crowman2009 Oct 2017 #12
Bad logic MosheFeingold Oct 2017 #16
This is home-grown terrorism, and until we confront what that means head on... Hekate Oct 2017 #14
New reports are not clear about his vantage point rocktivity Oct 2017 #17
Doesn't make sense to bring in all that crap and then yagotme Oct 2017 #19
Unfortunately, THAT makes sense. rocktivity Oct 2017 #23
He was firing from the balcony. AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #21
Terror only applies to Muslims and people of color. redstatebluegirl Oct 2017 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Oct 2017 #30
People Control, Not Gun Control - posted again when these shootings occur Sancho Oct 2017 #35
"no connection between the shooting and any international terrorist group" BumRushDaShow Oct 2017 #36

IronLionZion

(45,547 posts)
7. Even when ISIS claims credit, media still can't acknowledge white terrorists
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:38 PM
Oct 2017

and are hesitant to use the t word on whites.

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
9. Exactly...
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:45 PM
Oct 2017

For some reason, Terrorist and White Male can never be tied together in our MSM. Have to wonder if that's on PURPOSE. Of COURSE, IT IS.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
18. What a terrorism act is has been explained to you before, but
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:05 PM
Oct 2017

perhaps you missed it. No amount of caps and no matter how many people are angrily and ignorantly yammering that he is will not make him one if he is not.

Here is the definition our nation of laws uses. Though it may vary a bit from state to state, federal law would normally supercede:

"The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85)."

IF it is established that Paddock's INTENT was to perform a terrorist act by that definition, he will be legally charged with a terrorist act.

If not, then not.

I'm going to add that I see no difference in disrespect for the law and for whether someone is actually guilty of a specific crime when it is expressed by someone here or the crowds at trump's rallies.

whopis01

(3,525 posts)
34. He won't be charged with anything. He is dead.
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:50 PM
Oct 2017
IF it is established that Paddock's INTENT was to perform a terrorist act by that definition, he will be legally charged with a terrorist act.


Beyond that, your comment is wrong, because Nevada law has a different definition of terrorism.



NRS 202.4415 "Act of terrorism" defined.

1. "Act of terrorism" means any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to:

(a) Cause great bodily harm or death to the general population; or

(b) Cause substantial destruction, contamination or impairment of:

(1) Any building or infrastructure, communications, transportation, utilities or services; or

(2) Any natural resource or the environment.

2. As used in this section, "coercion" does not include an act of civil disobedience.


I would say this pretty clearly qualifies as terrorism under that definition.

http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2010/title15/chapter202/nrs202-4415.html


Inkfreak

(1,695 posts)
26. Linking to your own thread doesn't prove it.
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:19 PM
Oct 2017

Terrorism has a real meaning. This man was more than likely highly unstable mentally. That is not terrorism...period....

get the red out

(13,468 posts)
31. Mental instability
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:31 PM
Oct 2017

I agree, he likely was very mentally unstable. Mental healthcare never seems to get enough attention as an important issue in our society. And I'm not trying to come up with some kind of plan, or take the rights away from someone diagnosed with a mental illness; but getting good mental healthcare can be very difficult in this country, even when someone has insurance to cover it. Something need to happen to improve this situation, IMO. (And I'm not saying there aren't too many powerful weapons in our society either.)

Inkfreak

(1,695 posts)
32. It gets a casual mention every time. And then ignored.
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:35 PM
Oct 2017

I've done experience in this from my job. Not in a treatment capacity, though. I see here in NY, more facilities closed down and consolidated in understaffed places. Or privatized. It's terrible.

The great ignored threat in our society. Mental health on our people, ignored.

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
11. Today's Excuses for Stephen Paddock Include....
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:47 PM
Oct 2017

Crazed Lunatic, Pure Evil, Mentally-Ill and other BS like that. It hurts their vocal cords to SAY THE TRUTH. STEPHEN PADDOCK was A WHITE MALE TERRORIST. That is the truth. Plain and Simple.

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
4. I think the distinction is motive
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:26 PM
Oct 2017

Terrorists want something -- no Jewish people in the middle east or whatever.

Madmen just want to see the world burn.

Subtle distinction, and perhaps a distinction without a difference.

atreides1

(16,094 posts)
10. According to NRS 202.4415, it's terrorism!!!
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:47 PM
Oct 2017

NRS 202.4415 “Act of terrorism” defined.
1. “Act of terrorism” means any act that involves the use or attempted use of sabotage, coercion or violence which is intended to:
(a) Cause great bodily harm or death to the general population; or
(b) Cause substantial destruction, contamination or impairment of:
(1) Any building or infrastructure, communications, transportation, utilities or services; or
(2) Any natural resource or the environment.
2. As used in this section, “coercion” does not include an act of civil disobedience.
(Added to NRS by 2003, 2947)

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
25. That Has Been One Of....
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:15 PM
Oct 2017

Stephen Paddock "Created' Excuses Today. "He Did Not Like Country Music"....... Heck, we don't either but Paddock actions have NOTHING to do with "liking or Not liking Country Music".

lapfog_1

(29,227 posts)
27. I doubt that he cared it was country music
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:21 PM
Oct 2017

it was an open air venue with fencing around it with 20,000+ people inside a confined space right across the street from a high rise hotel where he could get a very good field of fire on those attending.

Shooting fish in a barrel...

This was a target of opportunity. Yet to be seen if this was a planned TERRORIST attack ( as per legal definitions ).

But it was clearly planned out.

rocktivity

(44,580 posts)
15. No connection to any organized terrorist group I'm sure that what they meant
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:00 PM
Oct 2017

The Isis connection claim was probably fake news.


rocktivity

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
16. Bad logic
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:02 PM
Oct 2017

Now, I am not defending Trump's stupidity, but your argument has a flaw.

Let's say everyone from the horrid mythical country of Jihadistan is a terrorist. And let's say we have native-born terrorists.

If the goal is to lesson terrorists attacks, blocking people from Jihadistan helps. It's not perfect, in that you have home-grown asshats, too. But it helps.

(In short: there are other arguments that are much better re: Trump's stupidity, like no country is really Jihadistan and the people running away from countries close to being a mythical Jihadistan are, most likely, the victims of asshats trying to get away.)

Hekate

(90,846 posts)
14. This is home-grown terrorism, and until we confront what that means head on...
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 12:54 PM
Oct 2017

...it will happen over and over and over. 30,000 a year.

rocktivity

(44,580 posts)
17. New reports are not clear about his vantage point
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:02 PM
Oct 2017

Did he attend the festival, shoot, leave, go to his hotel, and kill himself? If so, how did he get in with a rifle? Did he shoot from his hotel room?


rocktvity

yagotme

(2,928 posts)
19. Doesn't make sense to bring in all that crap and then
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:07 PM
Oct 2017

take 1 or 2 down to the festival. With 2 windows broken out of the room, it would look like he used the room as the vantage point. 2 clear fields of fire and all, covering main area and exits.

rocktivity

(44,580 posts)
23. Unfortunately, THAT makes sense.
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:54 PM
Oct 2017

So my guess that he shot from his hotel room, then shot himself was right -- hooray for me.


rocktivity

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
21. He was firing from the balcony.
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 01:09 PM
Oct 2017

There's cell phone video that was being shot of the concert, that starts panning around like WTF when it starts, and you can see its from the Mandalay Bay upper floors.

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Sancho

(9,070 posts)
35. People Control, Not Gun Control - posted again when these shootings occur
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 02:55 PM
Oct 2017

This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70’s, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that weren’t secured are out of control in our society. As such, here’s what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. I’m not debating the legal language, I just think it’s the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because it’s clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learner’s license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special carry circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.). If you are carrying your gun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you lose your gun and license.
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driver’s license you need a license to fish, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

BumRushDaShow

(129,608 posts)
36. "no connection between the shooting and any international terrorist group"
Mon Oct 2, 2017, 04:17 PM
Oct 2017

This is the fucking problem.

The powers to be refuse to label anything "terror" that is DOMESTIC.

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