Shooter, Wade Page, was Army vet, white supremacist
Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2012, 12:11 PM - Edit history (4)
Source: Journal Sentinel
The shooter in the deadly attack Sunday at the Sikh Temple in Oak Creek was identified as Wade Michael Page, 40, sources familiar with the shooting investigation said Monday.
He served in the Army for several years and was assigned to psychological operations, or PsyOps, according to the sources.
He is no longer in the Army.
The Southern Law Poverty Center, a group that has studied hate crimes for decades, reported Monday that Page was a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band known as End Apathy.
Read more: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/shooter-wade-page-was-army-vet-white-supremacist-856cn28-165123946.html
Gunman in Sikh temple shooting named, linked to racist groups
U.S. military sources said Page had been discharged from the Army in 1998 for "patterns of misconduct" and had been cited for being drunk on duty.
Page had served in the military for six years but was never posted overseas. He was a psychological operations specialist and missile repairman who was last stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the sources said.
In June 1998 he was disciplined for being drunk on duty and had his rank reduced to specialist from sergeant. He was not eligible to re-enlist.
more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/06/us-usa-wisconsin-shooting-idUSBRE8740FP20120806
from Ian David's post in GD:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021080899
Bulletin: Alleged Sikh Temple Shooter Former Member of Skinhead Band
The man who allegedly murdered six people at a Sikh temple in suburban Milwaukee yesterday, identified in media reports as Wade Michael Page, was a frustrated neo-Nazi who had been the leader of a racist white-power band.
In 2010, Page, then the leader of the band End Apathy, gave an interview to the white supremacist website Label 56. He said that when he started the band in 2005, its name reflected his wish to “figure out how to end people’s apathetic ways” and start “moving forward.” “I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back,” Page said. Later, he added, “The inspiration was based on frustration that we have the potential to accomplish so much more as individuals and a society in whole.” He did not discuss violence in the interview.
Page told the website that he had been a part of the white power music scene since 2000, when he left his native Colorado on a motorcycle. He attended white power concerts in Georgia, North Carolina, West Virginia and Colorado. At various times, he said, he also played in the hate rock bands Youngland (2001-2003), Celtic Warrior, Radikahl, Max Resist, Intimidation One, Aggressive Force and Blue Eyed Devils. End Apathy, he said, included “Brent” on bass and “Ozzie” on drums; the men were former members of Definite Hate and another band, 13 Knots.
In 2000, the Southern Poverty Law Center has found that Page also attempted to purchase goods from the neo-Nazi National Alliance, then America’s most important hate group.
More:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/06/bulletin-alleged-sikh-temple-shooter-member-of-neo-nazi-group/
LIVE Press Conference with ATF and FBI 11:00 ET
http://www.channel3000.com/LIVE-STREAMING-News-conference-on-Wisconsin-Sikh-temple-shooting/-/1656/15982164/-/l8lru4/-/index.html
Update at 11:40 a.m. ET. "Person Of Interest ... Showed Up At The Scene":
Asked about the "person of interest" who authorities want to speak with, Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards just said that "he's an individual who showed up at the scene after the shooting." Some officers at the scene though "this guy looks suspicious" but he left the area before authorities could speak with him.
Also at the news briefing, officials just said that the gun used by the shooter was purchased legally.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/08/06/158187820/sikh-temple-shooting-suspect-white-man-in-his-40s
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Kind of figured he was.
I had to deal with my share of these bigots, the hate that comes out of their mouths is mind boggling. At least there won't be anymore hate coming from this guy, unfortunately, a bunch of innocent people were injured or killed before he could be stopped.
My prayers go out to those lives forever destroyed by this racist.
HowHasItComeToThis
(3,566 posts)ANOTHER SUCCESS OF THE MILITARY .
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)So I'm not sure what your point is.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)He was drummed out for being drunk on duty. The fact that he was a white supremacist doesn't seem to have bothered his superiors that much, even when he was seen goose-stepping on base.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and guns, yes, but he could just of easily have used an explosive device which has the potential for much worse causalities. I dealt with my share of bigots and I can't fathom the hate from these people, male or female, that they have towards other humans.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2012, 11:14 AM - Edit history (1)
Without a gun this guy -- just like Zimmerman -- would likely never have killed anyone, but himself with his hatred.
twizzler
(206 posts)guns don't enable anything, his state of mind enabled him, the gun was just a tool he used to carry out his hatred, he could just have as easily used an explosive device, gasoline and a match, a vehicle.
What enable him was his sick, diseased, twisted mind.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)atreides1
(16,079 posts)And yet he found a way to kill over 160 people...Bundy didn't use guns either, didn't stop him from killing did it!
Sick and twisted will always find a way to do what they do!
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)itll be interesting to see how planned out this all was..
in cases where people act on an impulse/rage ....
its hard to keep an impulse if you have to run to multiple stores to gather ingredients for a bomb...
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Rage works in multiple ways.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the weapon that is really used by the sexually frustrated shooter.
Shooting a gun is, for some people, a physical metaphor for sexual activity. It gives them satisfaction. Who knows? Maybe we wouldn't have so many people shooting for sport if they did not feel the need to compensate for what they have convinced themselves is an inadequate penis, however normal their physical attributes.
Guns make the shooter feel very powerful and masculine. Probably true for women too. So, if this man had a sense of sexual inadequacy, a feeling that he was unloved -- and he probably was unloved and did feel it when you think about his history of alcohol abuse and failure, that could explain why the gun was key to this explosion of irrational anger.
Think about it. All these people feeling frightened, believing that they cannot live safely without a gun collection. What are they really worried about? If they felt successful and secure in their relationships with their families and neighbors, they would not need so many guns to comfort themselves.
This, from an amateur psychologist and student of literature. lol
heaven05
(18,124 posts)what? this man was a pig racist. Period. And if being sexually frustrated sent him off, you know, small member, got laughed at, why take out on dark skinned people. we're in deep trouble if the reason for this was sexual frustration.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Feelings of inferiority in terms of the ability to compete, to perform -- in general in life. The two are related. Racism and feelings of inferiority which go back to feelings of being unloved and incapable of a sense of sexual worth to a significant other and in society in general. Racism, especially at this extreme, is a serious psychological dysfunction.
FarPoint
(12,372 posts)
twizzler
(206 posts)the guns did not enable him, they were just the tool he used to carry out his sick twisted crime. He could have just as easily used an explosive device, 5 gallons of gas and a match, a vehicle, a machete, whatever.
lapfog_1
(29,204 posts)the religious or "amrit" of the Sikh men are required to carry this:
a machete would not have killed 6 Sikhs.
BTW, mostly farmers in Punjab, the Sikhs are also the "warrior class" of India and do not run from a fight.
That said, their religion is one of peace and harmony.
twizzler
(206 posts)but you're right, I've read that the Sikh's were skilled knife fighters and would not run from a fight, but didn't go looking for a fight.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)I don't like or dislike guns, I carried one as part of my job for 35 years and as a retired LEO, I'm am allowed by law to still carry if I wanted to, but I rarely do.
The only thing I want to protect is the right of citizens to own and, if properly qualified, carry.
Please don't get off on the wrong foot with me by pretending to know what I want or don't want. 
tiny elvis
(979 posts)affect. Why punish and render defenseless the very people that deserve to be protected while HELPING the offenders
with such laws? The only other use for such laws is for government to gain control over the people.
Sincerely,
Wade M. Page
is this a good militia or bad? how can you tell?
twizzler
(206 posts)not quite sure what you mean. Clarify please.
tiny elvis
(979 posts)jolly good fellows
strange bedfellows
do you disagree with the quote from wade page?
have you said such things yourself?
no reason to be shy about it
we know that an innocent person only carries a concealed weapon without duty
because he is crazy scared or he wishes a motherfucker would
primavera
(5,191 posts)We can have ourselves an old fashioned duel: you with your can of gas and me with a couple of Glocks and a shotgun and we'll see which one us walks away still breathing. Hell, just to be sporting, you can bring along a couple of friends and arm them to the teeth with all of those vicious potato peelers and ballpoint pens and kitchen knives that gun nuts so love to proclaim as being just as deadly as guns. Btw, are you up on your life insurance premiums?
twizzler
(206 posts)who said anything about a duel. An attack like that would be covert, like sneaking up on the temple and pouring the gas and lighting it or place pipe bombs in strategic points to cause maximum damage, or just drive a car bomb up to the temple and walk away.
Where did you get the idea anyone here was talking about a duel? 
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)if somethings pre-meditated.. then the peson clearly isnt 'diseased' or crazy...the ability to do that shows an ability to reason and make decisions (whether bad ones or not)..
if its not premeditated, that means he grabbed what he could and went for it...
in that case, youre telling me if he had only had a big stick.. things would have turned out the same?
twizzler
(206 posts)To do this, you have to have a degree of insanity.
You're telling me he couldn't have done much more damage with something else?
The guns he had are not responsible for his actions, he is or was responsible for his action.
I'm not particularly pro or anti gun, I carried one for 35 years as part of my job as a cop, but to blame an inanimate object for these murders is completely wrong.
you know the saying, guns don't kill people, people do. just because so many "bad" people have weapons, i defend the right of responsible individuals to own weapons for self-defense and/or hunting, sport. Yet there is going to have to be a better screening process. I have no idea what that would entail, but the "experts", I'm sure, could figure something non-intrusive, constitutionally, out.
twizzler
(206 posts)although I don't know how it would be done. Like you, I'll leave that to the experts.
A good start would be better reporting by the states to the NCIS of prohibited persons, background checks on all gun sales, including private sales.
it would be a start
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)to kill and that specific types of guns and gun equipment make it easy to kill lots of people.
Guns are part of the problem. They are not the entire problem. Sensible regulation to make it more difficult to commit mass murder with guns would seem to many of us to be something we ought to do, considering the fact that these sorts of incidents are now commonplace.
twizzler
(206 posts)however some of the solutions offered are, at best, ludicrous. I'm not pro or anti gun, I'm for citizens being able to carry guns as long as they are qualified, I do support some sensible regs, one I would like to see is all firearms transactions should be accompanied by a background check, better reporting to NCIS of prohibited persons, etc.
mzmolly
(50,992 posts)racist, nuts love guns and kill using them, vs. say gasoline.
twizzler
(206 posts)but if you took all the guns away, or even severely restricted them, these twisted sick individuals would just use other means.
How hard do you think it is to construct an explosive device? How hard is it to pour 5 gallons of gas and strike a match?
Even though guns are in abundance in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, why is the weapon of choice the car bomb?
It doesn't matter what you restrict or ban, a determined person bent on mayhem will find a way.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)They are not as sexually motivated as ours. The killers in those other countries are trained to make the bombs and place them as a part of their political and terrorist activities. Bombs are strategically a better choice because they do not put the killer at such great, immediate risk. A bomber can escape from the area in which the killing takes place before the bomb goes off.
Although they share the same basic problem with failure to perform in their society, failure to win, as these assassins do.
The random shooters in this country may be part of a movement, but are not so well organized, and their motivation is to find some sort of expression of power -- a sort of sexual expression for many of them.
Dare I suggest that the gun-obsessed in our country may well be sexually abnormal or sexually frustrated depending on their circumstances? Could it be that sexual repression or even without sexual repression, that sexual obsession makes people violent? It may well be one factor.
And by sex, I am not referring just to the physical act of sex. I mean the word in a broader sense which reaches to how at ease a person is with other people, whether, for example, a man feels a need to "prove himself as a man" in his relationships with men and women, whether a man needs to feel that he is respected, a leader, unusually strong, etc., whether a person has fulfilling relationships with others in which they don't have to be "el supremo," number one all the time. A person who feels a great lack in those areas has the signs of a sense of sexual inadequacy, social inadequacy as I am using the terms.
The people who do these shootings are confused, and very often, it is because they feel that they are supposed to have "succeeded" when they did not. In other words, they feel they should have performed to a higher standard socially or professionally and could not.
Maybe these shootings are a natural reaction to our national obsession with competition and the feelings of inadequacy on the parts of the 99.9% of us who don't "win" at least who don't win very often.
That is a lot of what is behind the whole white supremacy movement. You see very few really successful, outstanding individuals attracted to that sort of nonsense. And the few people recognized as outstanding by the rest of us are people who for one thing or another don't really feel that they have succeeded.
Dick Cheney is a prime example. An overeater to the point of ruining his health. A draft dodger -- several times -- who is obsessed with the military. He sought power for the sake of power. He has some friends, but is not a person you would like when you first met him. Dick Cheney is very much about being the most powerful man in the room -- an obsession. So, of course, he loves hunting and wars in which the bodies of others are at risk but not his own.
FarPoint
(12,372 posts)I lost count....7 or 8? Alcohol is also one of his vices.
MightyMopar
(735 posts)No he couldn't just use an explosive device, gasoline or a vehicle, guns are almost always bad guys first and second choice(notice how often the bring multiple guns). Even Tim McVeigh said he wished he'd used a gun instead.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)could these actions point to something larger than sick twisted individuals? Just asking
twizzler
(206 posts)then, hell yes.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)and you are correct.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)"the gun was just a tool he used to carry out his hatred, he could just have as easily used an explosive device, gasoline and a match, a vehicle." Just a tool - same as a Crescent wrench or a rubber mallet, eh? It (a gun) IS - and is DESIGNED to be - a tool of death. The first guns were designed to get the upper hand in killing - not putting holes in targets.
Sure, he could've used gasoline, explosives or a '69 Impala Sport Coupe. But each of THOSE "weapons" had decidedly more risk for the perpetrator. Guns are the cowardly way to perpetrate death. Guns weren't designed from the outset to power your Coleman camp stove, nor were they conceived as a means of transporting you wherever you choose to go. They're meant to inflict mortal harm on living things, and that's the only thing they're good for. When you figure a way to cook scrambled eggs with a gun, or take it for an evening cruise down Main street, please detail your experiences to enlighten the lesser intellectual of us.
twizzler
(206 posts)Yes guns are the easy way for criminals, I well know this, but someone determined to carry out mass murder doesn't need a gun, as I pointed out.
You can twist and shout all you want, does not change the fact that a gun is only a tool and if used lawfully and correctly, is a useful tool.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)As you did. I stated that the options you detailed would bare the perpetrator to possible injury to himSELF as much as those he was bent on killing. Where with semi-automatics, there's the distinct danger of a blister on the trigger finger. OF COURSE - the argument to defend the poor, innocent guns is a clue to a lack of comprehension in itself.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)of unnecessary deaths every year in this country. And that argument is getting so old.
The weapon of choice of sick, twisted killers. I wonder why?
twizzler
(206 posts)if by then you can't understand then I can't help you.
Even if all guns magically went away tomorrow, a determined killer or killers, would still find a way to cause the mayhem this RW racist did.
Blaming the tool for what this sick man did is, in my opinion, a distraction for the real problems, like the rise of RW hate groups and their willingness to carry out domestic terrorist attacks.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)No one's proposing to take your nickle-plated tools away from you. You'll still have them to do good deeds with.
twizzler
(206 posts)I never said anything about taking away guns and anyone who thinks that's going to happen is a fool.
I hardly ever carry a gun anymore, although as a retired LEO, by law, I'm entitled to, I just don't see the point in it.
My point is that criminals, racists, whatever, will find a way to wreak havoc whether they have a gun or not if they are determined enough.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)If and when we get a handle on folks misusing guns, then we can turn our focus to drive-by knifings and arrow barrages. 
twizzler
(206 posts)pipe bomb, fertilizer bomb, poisonings.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)can be accidental. And I invite you to flood us with a casualty count (from 2012 to keep the list from overwhelming us) thanks to pipe and fertilizer bombs in the USA. Those things CAN be lethal, but they take a degree of expertise (and luck) to keep their creator from being the primary victim. A gun - you buy it, yoiu load it and you kill with abandon at will.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)enable |enˈābəl|
verb [ trans. ]
give (someone or something) the authority or means to do something : the evidence would enable us to arrive at firm conclusions.
• [ trans. ] make possible : a number of courses are available to enable an understanding of a broad range of issues.
• [ trans. ] chiefly Computing make (a device or system) operational; activate.
"... the gun was just a tool he used to carry out his hatred," i.e., it enabled him to carry out the attack.
If guns didn't exist, he would have found another way. Any clown can make a pipe bomb.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)So what?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)before they open fired.
You probably would have enjoyed shooting the breeze about guns with that group and said that in 35 years of Law Enforcement you've never met a more law-abiding group of gun owners.
Fact is, guns enabled them to do something they likely would not have done with a knife, machete, car, can of gas, their fists, etc., as you keep proclaiming.
I also think "guns" represent a way to identify those most like to shoot innocent people and to impede them from doing it.
twizzler
(206 posts)as I have stated up thread, I don't like or dislike guns, I never shot the breeze with people about guns except maybe fellow officers when we went from the .38 spl. to the 9 mm to the .40 cal. to the .45 cal..
Once again, please don't get off on the wrong foot with me by pretending to know what I would have enjoyed or who I would have enjoyed.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)tell us that guns are not part of the problem; they are just "tools;" there is nothing we can, or should do, about guns; the NRA is good; etc.
twizzler
(206 posts)I am not a pro-gunner, nor am I an anti-gunner, plus I never said there is nothing we can or should do about guns.
Where the hell did I say anything about the NRA?
If you don't want to have a civil discussion with me, and want to keep pretending to know what I like or don't like, then let's just go our separate ways and call it good.
If you want to have a civil discussion w/o the lies about what or who I am, then I'm more then willing.
Which one do you want?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)you don't want to have a civil conversation, and judging by some of your comments on other forums, you like to post lies about other members and just stir up discourse.
I gave you a choice on whether you wanted a civil conversation or not, you've made your choice, so at this time, it's better if we just go our separate ways.
gun sales went up after Aurora
Missycim
(950 posts)Oklahoma city agree with you. /sarcasm off
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Are you also going to lump all musicians in with this guy?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)
onehandle
(51,122 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)he may very well have been, but did I miss the news report of that?
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)but haven't hear LE state it yet.
I'll check it out, but until LE reports it, I'll withhold judgement. It's not like the news corps. have ever gotten anything wrong. 
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts) slackmaster
(60,567 posts)If it was dishonorable, he's barred from possessing a firearm for life.
There are several types of discharge that are less than honorable. A dishonorable discharge usually results from conviction in a court martial of a high crime.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The last straw was "drunk on duty" apparently.
think
(11,641 posts)
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)He did not address further questions on capacity or other specifics, only said that they have traced the gun through the purchase and it was obtained legally.
think
(11,641 posts)iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)really prevented him from being stupid with a weapon.
So much for that excuse eh ?
guess you guys will just hafta stick to
'well it was legal'
which in my opinion, doesnt help your arguement at all.
Tanuki
(14,918 posts)for the Psychological Operations team (after they get through explaining why the Ft. Hood shooter was still an Army psychiatrist).
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)A lot can happen to a person in the 14 years following.
That said, I was at Pope AFB (adjacent to Fort Bragg) from '91-'93 and the Army did have a problem with rascist organizations there and then. I await additional evidence.
Tanuki
(14,918 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)These characterizations and assumptions are overreach in the extreme.
The Army kicked the guy out with a general discharge. That means he didn't suit.
Don't blame the Army for noticing this guy was a fuckup and getting rid of him. Further, this guy never served a second in combat, he was a peacetime soldier. He wasn't "broken" due to deployment and exposure to war violence. It is far more likely that he spent every weekend in some hater's bar, and it came to the attention of the Army and they put a boot in his ass.
iemitsu
(3,888 posts)was probably sitting at a computer and posting right wing opinions on forums such as DU.
we are paying many soldiers to man the internet this way.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I am asking a question to which I have no answer, but it seems worth asking.
twizzler
(206 posts)missile repair tech with the psyops unit he was assigned to. Not sure if it's correct.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)He did not have the intelligence for psy-ops.
raccoon
(31,111 posts)yardwork
(61,608 posts)No wonder we've had so many atrocities among U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan and God knows where else.
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)had a psychiatrist who went on a shooting rampage and killed 13 people as well but his hate was directed in the opposite direction.
Not sure you can make a blanket statement either way. The guy was out of the Army far longer than he was in it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He had no authority--he was at the bottom of the barrel. He took orders, didn't give them. And he got the boot.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)when he enlisted, so saying that the Army recruited a white supremacist is misleading, he may have become one while in the Army, but I seriously doubt they recruited him as one.
MADem
(135,425 posts)In Clinton's peacetime Army?
Please. For all you know he could have been the supply clerk for the unit.
This is the kind of shit that is embarrassing to read on this site; this outdated "babykiller" assumption that is implied.
My initial assignments weren't in the area/speciality where I eventually ended up. It happens--a LOT. It happens even more frequently when the services are experiencing a drawdown--which they were during the time this nitwit was in uniform.
The fact that this guy's discharge was NOT honorable when the Services were pleading for people to quit and would gladly have given them a high five and an HONORABLE if they'd just LEAVE tells me that USA noticed this guy had some kind of a "problem" and they reacted apppropriately. It might have been disciplinary (repeatedly), or it might have been something else.
We will have to wait and see what the reasons were for this discharge, but I would be entirely unsurprised if he got the boot for being a racist asshole who consorted with other racists and someone noticed. Or it could be something much more pedestrian, like he got caught stealing, or something. Who knows?
Time will tell, but broad brushing like you are doing is irresponsible and unhelpful.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)How is that a broadbrush?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine he may have been a super-secret cafeteria worker... doling out drug-filled meatloaf and psychotropic-laced mashed potatoes to the clerical workers, thus turning them into an army of super-secret, vacuum-breathing soldiers who are just now arriving on Mars to claim it for the Empire.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You are suggesting, without any evidence, and entirely unfairly, that the Army deliberately and routinely places crazed murderers of Sikh communities in their Psyops units. It's a feature, not a bug--tee hee. Not funny.
Your suggestions are shameful, inaccurate, extremely insulting to the millions who have served their nation honorably and well, and reflect badly on you and this site. If you were broadbrushing an ethnic group in that fashion, there'd be a word for that.
I can't let your remarks pass by without comment.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)Don't get angry with me for observing this FACT. I didn't just murder six people and injure many more. This guy did, and he is an Army veteran. Getting angry won't change that FACT.
Edit - the Homeland Security report is linked in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021080822
MADem
(135,425 posts)You are all over the page, here. On the one hand, you're saying the Army acknowledges that they are dealing with problem enlistees, on the other hand you're suggesting they enthusiastically recruit them.
You are not stating any facts--you are making snide insinuations about characteristics of personnel serving in uniform and I'm calling you on them. You do NOT have the right to broad-brush millions of people based on the actions of one fucking nut, and that is what you're doing.
It's not a very progressive thing you are doing, and you should walk those comments back, because they reflect poorly on you.
And that's a FACT.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)what's by your bathroom sink?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Best to keep your eye out for them...you know how they all can be...
(Required for the irony-impaired, these days)
hack89
(39,171 posts)PsyOps units need drivers, mechanics, cooks and clerks like every other army unit. Not every member is a highly trained PsyOps Jedi.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)This article says that by 2000 (two years after General Discharge) he had joined a White Supremacist group. Why do we assume that he did nothing of interest while assigned to PsyOps at Ft. Bragg? Given his later behavior it seems to me that this bears some looking into to. Seems to be me that people are being very quick to say "nothing to see here, move along."
http://www.wral.com/news/story/11395434/
MADem
(135,425 posts)That happens in EVERY unit at times--even musicians and medical service personnel can get busted for those behaviors.
Give it a rest. He was serving in a peacetime military and he was a low-quality recruit. His discharge reflects that.
MADem
(135,425 posts)wasn't he?
The Army saw that he wasn't suitable and they tossed him over the side.
Saying "Army vet" without pointing out that he was given the boot is a disservice to the millions who have served honorably and well. JMO.
I notice the SPLC link doesn't even talk about that aspect.
CBS comments on it, but I don't think they got it entirely right. I think the guy got a general discharge, which can mean a variety of things, but at a minimum, it meant he wasn't fitting in and either wasn't treatable to be made to fit in, or was not amenable to treatment:
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/08/06/cbs-news-shooter-identified-as-former-us-military-member/
What I notice from his time served is that this guy missed GULF ONE, and he missed GULF TWO (Iraq) and Afghanistan. Combat didn't fuck this guy up--he was a peacetime recruit; he wasn't dealing with the stressors of deployment or war zones.
911 tattoo notwithstanding, I think the speculation that this guy was "going after Sikhs because he thought they were Muslims" might be off the mark. I think he may have been going after Sikhs because he was a crazy racist asshole who was not down with the brown. If it were a bunch of Ethiopian Jews in that building, that might have set him off, too.
Or who knows? It could be entirely personal. Maybe his girlfriend left him for a Sikh, or something?
twizzler
(206 posts)Particularly the last 2 sentences.
maddezmom
(135,060 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)In a peacetime military, too.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)... this guy would never be allowed to purchase a gun with a "less-than-honorable" discharge. While I'm a 'believer' that military service should be a prerequisite (under a Universal Service Mandate) for gun ownership (in a "well-regulated militia" , that service must be honorable.
MADem
(135,425 posts)A general discharge can be for any one of a number of reasons, and it is also "upgradable." One can petition after a few years following discharge for an upgrade to the discharge to "honorable." People who need VA care do this on occasion.
A "general" discharge is neither honorable nor dishonorable.
It sits firmly in a gray area of neither/nor. If you had to phrase it in casualspeak, "It is what it is."
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)A general discharge is most often a "fitness" issue .... usually about attitude or "emotional issues." In my (imaginary) "perfect world," such a discharge should be a disqualifier on a background check if follow-up "care" for whatever issues existed was undertaken.
MADem
(135,425 posts)a total asshole. If they were total assholes, they doled out OTH's. During DADT, self-reporters frequently got Honorable discharges, but that's not to say there weren't plenty of jerks who tried to maximize the "punishment" for reasons they probably couldn't adequately explain to themselves if they thought about it.
As you note, the whole "fitness" thing is why it's difficult to be definitive about general discharges. There's something there that caused the discharged individual to "not fit in," but it's not always nefarious--though it can be.
Sometimes, like with this guy, it's a simple "pattern of misconduct"--e.g. a little shit just kept getting into trouble, became a personnel/security clearance problem due to issues of unreliability--like being drunk on duty; other times, it's medical/psychiatric--not the person's fault, but they're causing trouble as a result of their illness, so while the illness is a factor in mitigation, they've engaged in behaviors that were contrary to good order/discipline or caused them to not be able to do their job and affected unit readiness; and other times, before changes to the regs accrued, it was simply for the "crime" of being gay in uniform.
I'm guessing this discharge was fairly straightforward--problem child, getting into scrapes, perhaps even given a few chances by soft-hearted supervisors, and then, patience exhausted/enough is enough. Busted and dumped.
I would not be at all surprised if the unit's mandated end strength constraints made the whole process quite logical--why keep the dregs when you're having to make those painful "Reduction in Force" manpower decisions? Get rid of the little assholes who are discipline/paperwork/management nightmares, and keep the good kids.
yeah just like he sat in the gray area.
you're on the mark on this one.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)didnt prevent him from being an angry human being who wanted to KILL with a WEAPON designed soley for the purpose of KILLING?!!?!!??
formercia
(18,479 posts)but not in the way he hoped.
Feds need to take these Skinheads seriously. They have no problem killing each other. Do you think killing a person of color would bother them?
WhoIsNumberNone
(7,875 posts)Better yet, I wonder "logic" the right wing talk-bots will use to convince us this guy was a liberal? You know it's coming...
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Domestic terrorism has become a big money maker for them.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)How subtle.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I am clueless as to "hate tattoos" and codes--what does that mean?
On edit--is it about this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lane_(white_nationalist)
I can't get that link to "work" even though it's copied exactly...one can get to it by google searching for the guy, though.
This link expounds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)on the numbers 14 and 88. Tattoos, online usernames, greetings, etc...
14 is from David Lane's infamous 14 words: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children
88 is a reference to Heil Hitler (H is the 8th letter in the alphabet).
Many times, they will be seen together as 1488 or 14/88.
Others less common are 419 or 4/19 (Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing), 420 or 4/20 (April 20th - Hitlers birthday) and 33 or 33/6 (K is the 11th letter, 33 references KKK).
The celtic cross is a reference to "treasured" eastern european heritage - and is more 'socially acceptable' than a swastika for those WNs who actually want to hold down a job. The Iron Cross and Iron Eagle are also relatively common, but those often feature a swastika in their designs, just less prominent.
As soon as I saw that tat, it registered to me why someone might think that was a 9-11 reference, if they didn't know the meaning of the cross and the symbolism of 14. Being as large as it is and as prominent (and dude was apparently in a sleeveless wife-beater t-shirt), it may have looked like some kind of memorial symbol. Or, as he had full sleeves, it may have been a completely different tattoo they were referring to.
This one is more obvious than a neon billboard that dude was a full on nazi.
Edit - here are images: http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/default_graphics.asp and numbers: http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers.asp
MADem
(135,425 posts)Not only are they hating assholes, their "design sense" is deep in the toilet. Ugh!
I'll bet there are a lot of Irish people who are pissed at their misappropriation of their cross. I suppose these racist idiots have no clue that there was a bit of intermarriage between the swarthier peoples found on the European continent and the Celts down the years--those "black Irish" didn't fall from the sky, after all....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm
Go back far enough, and we all come from the same place. It is especially despicable that they expropriate symbols from other cultures and traditions, relgious, pagan, what-have-you, as avatars for their hateful cause.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Black ink and very uncomplicated/industrial designs.
twizzler
(206 posts)we kept books of photos that had different gang tats, hate groups, etc., and if we had a tat that we couldn't figure out, we would contact SPLC and ask them for help. They usually would have something for us.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)The folks who volunteer there have to wade through a lot of hate, but once you get past the initial disgust, it becomes clinical - like observing an ant farm.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)People have the idea that they can do anything to anyone. All these people in these bands and groups of white racists are not crazy. Why are they not being classified as dangerous terrorists? Morris Dees has been on this stuff for years and has kept people informed, but that's it. I guess they have to kill someone important before there is real action.
Smilo
(1,944 posts)because he be white.
i hear you
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)since i can`t link nor would i`ll sum up what the more intelligent troopers are say...
the shooting was wrong and counter productive. the sikh`s are peaceful people that should not have been targeted because they are not the true enemy of the white race. some felt killing people in the place of worship was wrong. one actually wrote an interesting comment on the shooting and posted many pictures of the shooter and his band. his well written comment was geared to the kill everyone troopers who were to stupid to realize the killings was bad publicity and morally wrong.
ya they live in their very strange world but unfortunately they live in ours too.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)those comments were for public consumption so their group doesn't come under scrutiny because of someone like them killing innocents. If there had been a shooting at a black church no comments like those mentioned would have been forthcoming... Yeah I know about stormfront also, and they HATE all not like them.PERIOD
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)Jeffrey Imm, who heads R.E.A.L., said in an interview Monday that someone based in Milwaukee using the name "End Apathy" began posting on the website in February 2008. Additionally, appearances by Page's band were promoted on the Stormfront site, including a white supremacist gathering in March 2012 in Richmond, Va.
Here is a screen capture of the "End Apathy" post. And here is a post on Stormfront promoting the band's appearance.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/shooter-wade-page-was-army-vet-white-supremacist-856cn28-165123946.html
There's bound to some there wetting themselves over this association and trying to put their best foot forward now.
According to R.E.A.L. they've been praising his actions over there.
Stormfront Editor and Chief of Staff Jack Boot, also defended keeping the posting up about praising the terrorist attack on the Sikhs stating “they’re asking for it.” Regarding the Stormfront supporter praising the terrorist killer that attacked the Sikh temple, “Jack Boot” states “I don’t hold his sentiments against him. He’s far, far from the only one, of any race or creed, thinking in these terms. And others have pointed out that, regardless of the details that may emerge, strife is inevitable under a regime enforcing multiculturalism. Christ, they’re asking for it.” R.E.A.L. has captured a screen shot of the Stormfront “chief of staff” comments on this as well.
http://www.realcourage.org/2012/08/wisconsin-terrorist-attack/
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)
patrice
(47,992 posts)That kind of stuff is already out there because of James Holmes, now this PsyOps connection. Sorry to mention it, but I have run across some of this kind of talk on FB, so I expect it will show up here.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)The whole idea is to manipulate ethnic groups to do your bidding. It is the perfect line of work for a racist.
patrice
(47,992 posts)the Air Force Academy was/is being taken over by End Timing Evangelists.
Career fields attract certain personality types, e.g. police, either we recognize that fact and mitigate it, balance the types out in an integrated way, with proactive testing and psychology (social, cognitive, family ... whatever is needed) or we just let it all just go on and on and on until things break.
Mental Health PARITY in national health care insurance, now!!
lib2DaBone
(8,124 posts)Holmes's father is a long time employee of DARPA.. with a long history of psyops operations. (Google Operation Northwoods)
Wisconsin Sikh shooter Wade Page was an Army Psyops Specialist.
These shooting are no accident.. they are designed for a specific reason.. to effect opinion of the American people.
You could say these facts are all "conspiracy".... until the next psyops shooting occurs.
Now go back to sleep..everything is fine...
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)twizzler
(206 posts)unfortunately, it has been my experience that there is an abundance of young recruits just waiting in the wings.
I fear that we're going to see more and more of this. I hope I'm wrong.
Fawks121
(7 posts)that every time I come to DU and read an article regarding racism, or white supremacism which by the way is on the rise in this country and is entrenched in our economic and political system, the conversation gets derailed by individuals who feel much more comfortable discussing gun rights and the like. These issues are definitely related, however, for most of the comments, we lost sight of the real issue here. The man is a white supremacist. We can't conjecture into whether he was or wasn't a white supremacist prior to entering the military, it's a pointless conversation. If we look at the history of the military in the U.S. racism and white supremacy are nothing new at ALL. Especially considering the nations and countries we invade, conquer, mess up the politics... nations of darker skinned people. Let's get back to the topic of how pervasive racism is in this country and how much it structures and influences us.
twizzler
(206 posts)welcome.
patrice
(47,992 posts)ARMED INSURRECTION FOR RACE WAR - by whom? Do we really think it was an accident that the Repubs ran a SECESSIONIST for VP in '04? And who was she dog-whistling to??? THE SOUTH and the whole RACIST impulse that drove this country into an ILLEGAL and IMMORAL war against Iraq.
Review that whole set of events and change ONE fact: What if Iraq were a WHITE "Christian" nation? - how different would EVERYTHING be now . . .
.............
I responded yesterday more fully on this same topic, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=journals&uid=113133
twizzler
(206 posts)where would we be now?
But you're right, we need to be discussing the rise of RW hate groups and how to combat them w/o infringing on civil rights.
I'm just not sure how to do that, maybe start using the RICO statutes more often? Do what the SPLC did several years ago and sue them into oblivion?
Any thought on this?
LiberalProudofIt
(1 post)I received a chain e-mail from my mother that was disgusting. It started with (Can you think of One thing a muslim has ever done for this country?) It went on and on and on. Of course it managed to weave Obama into the text.
I believe it is this kind of propaganda from these chain e-mails and Foxaganda, O'Reilly, "Muslims killed us on 9/11" that promote this kind of hatred.
I think as Liberal Democrats we have to fight back on this kind of bullsh*t. We have to change the rhetoric. Take back the words that Newt Gingrich managed to use to bring down the pride of the Democratic party.
{In 1990, after consulting focus groups with the help of pollster Frank Luntz, GOPAC distributed a memo with a cover letter signed by Gingrich titled "Language, a Key Mechanism of Control", that encouraged Republicans to "speak like Newt" and contained lists of "contrasting words" – words with negative connotations such as "radical", "sick," and "traitors" – and "optimistic positive governing words" such as "opportunity", "courage", and "principled", that Gingrich recommended for use in describing Democrats and Republicans, respectively.}
I searched for an example and found on right here on DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2438756
We have to bring back the pride and (passion) for the next generation.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)The GOP have degenerated to playing wordgames and throwing insults around but with no real substance behind it.
It worked pretty well during the Bush era but they seem to be misfiring more and more lately.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,001 posts)triplepoint
(431 posts)Guns enable people to do massive damage with minimal effort. They are the drive-thru fast food of killing.
.
.
2009 FBI Murder Statistics By Type Of Weapon Used
.
13,636 total murders
.
Murders with handguns – 6452 (47.32%)
Murders with rifles – 348 (2.55%)
Murders with shotguns – 418 (3.07%)
Murders with unknown firearms – 1928 (14.14%)
Murder with knives or cutting instruments – 1825 (13.38%)
Murders with other weapons – 1864 (13.67%)
Murders with hands, fists, feet etc.. – 801 (5.87%)
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Somehow I don't like the sound of this correlation. Just exactly what does a psy-ops do? Figure out where to best drop the bombs? All this money they spend in other countries to "protect our freedom" and the crazies are right here in the U.S. Is that not some BS? Far too many disgruntled military personnel being discharged and then set free to reek havoc on the rest of us.
These people wouldn't know the difference between a Sikh, Muslim, or Hindu anyway.
twizzler
(206 posts)Moltisanti
(33 posts)IndyJones
(1,068 posts)Seems like a pretty major flaw in the backgrounds check to not take those issues into consideration.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It can be upgraded by petition. It is in a grey area.
A general discharge is not an impediment to weapons purchase.
IndyJones
(1,068 posts)Shouldn't the military put a block on that sort of individual being allowed to purchase arms?
MADem
(135,425 posts)He probably received nonjudicial punishment (Captain's mast in USN/Art 15 everywhere else) for that, finished out his tour and got the "general" because his service was punctuated by misbehavior. Of course, even if he petitioned for an upgrade (and I don't think he did, otherwise we might not know about this) he'd still have an RE-4 code on that 214.
If we're not talking about courts-martial, and we're not in this case, I don't think, it's often a crap shoot what ends up on that 214. It looks like he made it through an enlistment, maybe even two or an extension (hard to know what amount of advanced training he got, and if that obligated him for additional years of service) but at some point in time he became a noxious troublemaker who was way more trouble than he was worth.
A "general" though, is not a dishonorable. They gave gay people and pregnant women (back in the day when women HAD to leave when pregnant, and later when women had the OPTION to leave--no matter how highly trained they were--when pregnant) general discharges!
The general discharge is a grey area discharge, and it is up-gradable. One can petition for that if one is motivated.
braddy
(3,585 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)braddy
(3,585 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)maddezmom
(135,060 posts)OAK CREEK, Wis. —Wade Michael Page, the gunman in Sunday’s Sikh temple shooting, had a history of problems with alcohol, which led to him losing his military career and, more recently, a job as a trucker.
Page, 40, was shot to death by a Wisconsin police officer after he killed six Sikh worshippers at a temple here and shot another officer. He was discharged from the Army in 1998 because he had been found drunk during military exercises, according to law enforcement authorities. He was convicted of driving under the influence a year later in Colorado. And a trucking company confirmed Tuesday morning that it fired Page two years ago after he was pulled over in North Carolina for driving while impaired.
¬snip¬
The company said in a statement that Page was driving his personal vehicle in North Carolina at the time of the citation, and he refused to submit to a blood-alcohol test when pulled over.
After losing his job, Page apparently ran into financial trouble. Public records show that his home, in a rural part of Fayetteville, N.C., was foreclosed on in January. Page had bought the house for $165,000 in 2007, refinanced his mortgage two years later and had fallen far behind in payments.
more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/excessive-drinking-cost-wade-michael-page-military-career-civilian-job/2012/08/07/274ccc7a-e095-11e1-a421-8bf0f0e5aa11_story.html
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)A pattern that is becoming way too common.
Sick of the GOP
(65 posts)These wannabes have the rationality of a brick, the temper of a bull in rut, the hatred of a million burning suns, and enough guns to supply some countries' armies. Not a good combination.
Fawks121
(7 posts)I agree with you. We are not taking this problem seriously enough. Many people don't even want to believe that it is a big enough problem to be concerned with. Many believe that these people are just a few extremists and should just be ignored. Wrong!
They are growing in number. And recently Democracy Now! just had an interview with a man writing about the rise of white supremacists and their growing number in the U.S. military. The military has turned its head on this fact, ignoring white supremacist affiliations. What happens when these men interact with their comrades, not to mention the people of a nation that are of color!! Also, too many people think white supremacy is a problem of the south or of the Republicans...as a person of color, I see a lot of bigotry amongst so called liberals and democrats. Republicans are outright with their bigotry, many liberals hide behind PC words and phrases. Concerned more with giving the impression of liberality and less with dealing with the issue.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)Not being snarky... just same shit, different day.
I'm so disheartened about this country....
