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riversedge

(70,242 posts)
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 09:21 AM Aug 2017

Harvard fight could redirect 40 years of affirmative action

Source: CNN



By Joan Biskupic, CNN Legal Analyst and Supreme Court Biographer

Updated 3:34 AM ET, Sun August 6, 2017

Story highlights

The Trump administration could launch its own lawsuit against university policies
A 1978 Supreme Court decision allowed colleges to consider an applicant's race

Washington (CNN)The Justice Department this week signaled it would pursue Asian-American students' complaints of bias in admissions at Harvard University, a move that could ultimately alter the future of affirmative action nationwide.


Four decades after a landmark US Supreme Court ruling, affirmative action that brings diversity to college campuses has become entrenched. Yet it has been continually challenged, upheld by one-vote margins at the US Supreme Court.

For nearly three years, Harvard has been fighting a lawsuit targeting its admissions practices brought by a small advocacy group that enlisted Asian-American students. They claim the Ivy League campus caps the number of high-achieving Asian Americans as part of "racial balancing" that favors African Americans and Hispanics.

The advocates behind the case have a record of related litigation, and their long-held goal has been to end nationwide affirmative action programs designed to help blacks and other traditionally disadvantaged minorities.

Now it appears the Trump administration could throw its weight into the case or, even more potently, launch its own lawsuit against university policies


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Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/05/politics/affirmative-action-harvard-justice-department/index.html?sr=twCNN080517affirmative-action-harvard-justice-department1150AMVODtop&CNNPolitics=Tw









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Harvard fight could redirect 40 years of affirmative action (Original Post) riversedge Aug 2017 OP
So they think that this will result in an all white Harvard? greymattermom Aug 2017 #1
No - it probably will end up making them all Asian Pachamama Aug 2017 #2
Yes, that's what I meant greymattermom Aug 2017 #3
Except, we all know this is not about Asian students. leftofcool Aug 2017 #4
Exactly Pachamama Aug 2017 #5
And Jewish MosheFeingold Aug 2017 #16
This is not true - I know this for a fact as someone who went to an Ivy where I am very active and Pachamama Aug 2017 #18
It's not a myth MosheFeingold Aug 2017 #20
University of California flagship campuses would happen. Igel Aug 2017 #6
The answer is that the state of CA needs to direct more K-12 educational resources to those Yavin4 Aug 2017 #7
Harvard redirected aff action admissions in a big way once already. Igel Aug 2017 #8
I worked for a corporation that was very skilled at this The Mouth Aug 2017 #9
Those angry white males better be careful of what they wish for . . FairWinds Aug 2017 #10
I'm sorry - are you claiming there is a Jew quota at Harvard law? Dreamer Tatum Aug 2017 #11
Yes, and other admission favoritism as well. FairWinds Aug 2017 #12
There is no Jew quota in any university admissions Dreamer Tatum Aug 2017 #13
there used to be quotas Mosby Aug 2017 #15
Yes MosheFeingold Aug 2017 #17
100 years ago - but not for the last 75 years for sure Pachamama Aug 2017 #19
Agree race is only one factor - gender is definitely another onetexan Aug 2017 #14

greymattermom

(5,754 posts)
1. So they think that this will result in an all white Harvard?
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 09:24 AM
Aug 2017

I'd like to know what would happen without any affirmative action. How about legacy admissions?

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
16. And Jewish
Mon Aug 7, 2017, 12:46 PM
Aug 2017

For a long time, the Ivys had an open limit on Jewish students.

It was so bad, my children applied to schools using their mother's maiden name (which was generically German) and did not list any remotely-Jewish extracurriculars.

It worked.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
18. This is not true - I know this for a fact as someone who went to an Ivy where I am very active and
Mon Aug 7, 2017, 04:46 PM
Aug 2017

...work with the interview and admissions process in past and currently.

Don't know where that myth began...its simply not true.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
6. University of California flagship campuses would happen.
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 11:06 AM
Aug 2017

At UCLA aff. action was officially banned by a popular initiative.

Black, Native American, disadvantaged Asian ethnicities, Latino admits fell down by "catastrophic" levels: The percentages were high, but since the admits were already at a low number that meant not so many actual kids affected. A few hundred at most.

The East Asian percentage went up, but since they started from a large base that meant something like a couple thousand students.

On the whole, more "people of color." But protests percolated up through the ground everywhere because Prop 8 discriminated against "people of color." It hurt some, it helped more, but overall those it hurt were more important than those it helped not because of POC solidarity but because each person's mostly just a representative for their group. It was also humiliating because most members of those minorities were all "I'm in here because of my qualifications, not my ethnicity" only to see the numbers for their group drop by 50 or 70 or 80%. Meaning that half or more of those subpops got in because of affirmative action. Rage all around at galactic gargleblaster strength.

The administration's and faculty doing admission application evaluations were fairly consistent. This was bad. They liked affirmative action. The faculty had ways of lying in a deniable manner and they discussed them with newbies: "Gee, reverse numbers, instead of 1901 put down 1091. If the eval below a black student's who's probably not going to make it says 'excellent due to exceptional GPA and SAT scores, plus strong personal statement' put that on the black student's form and say that you just wrote it on the wrong form." Etc. Intentional errors.

Overall people were aghast at the very high numbers of East Asian admits that were projected and the administration and some faculty said that couldn't be allowed to happen. (It did, but not as much as it could have.) For two reasons. First, it would be an explicit admission that many, many thousands of East Asians had been kept out because they "didn't look like California." It's one thing to argue that a white kid was excluded because out of a 30000 person student body there were 1000 blacks admitted, 500 with affirmative action. It's another thing to argue that out of a 30000 person student body 5000 East Asians weren't admitted because their needed to be excluded because of affirmative action ... not for whites, but for blacks, Latinos, etc. If the student body needed to look like California was in place to help 1000 minorities then it needed to be in place to keep out East Asians.

The second reason was when all those East Asians were suddenly admitted with qualifications higher than many whites, it would boost the relative academic standing of the student body. Admit the most qualified without a race-filter and suddenly the average increases. That meant that the standards for admitting blacks and Latinos would also be higher, which would do the same number of black and Latino non-aff. action admits that it did on white admissions.

There were others, but some boil down to "UCLA must look like California" or "look like America". "If it's mostly Asian and the state's majority white, what will white people think?" is the same "look like California" argument with bolo instead of a tie. They were worried about legacies (don't know if legacies got points, but they were something the university wanted--rah-rah spirit on the part of alumni who donated a lot of money and did a lot of good would be diminished if their kids were excluded--imagine the DNC looking at voter turnout, "Yeah, we'll get 90% of the people here voting for us, but they won't like it when we raise taxes on their employer and it's offshored, so we can expect them to not turn out or even vote against us next election." The response is seldom, "Hey, it's principle, we don't like that industry, it's not green enough, so just screw those voters.&quot .

You've never seen so many people running around trying to find a proxy at any price for race to get around a law enacted by democratic means. Could they use class and socio-economic standing? Could they use geography, and say that everybody from Compton gets a multiplier while if you're from a high-performing district you don't? In other words, it was clear: They wanted to keep out East Asians.

Yavin4

(35,441 posts)
7. The answer is that the state of CA needs to direct more K-12 educational resources to those
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 11:19 AM
Aug 2017

at-risk children to increase their chances at admissions to the state Universities. Longer school years. Longer school days. More special tutoring. Working with parents who don't have the resources, etc.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
8. Harvard redirected aff action admissions in a big way once already.
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 11:24 AM
Aug 2017

In response to a scandal perhaps 5 years ago in which it was found that most of their affirmative action admissions were sort of fake. They had the right skin color and right last names, their genes had inhabited for a while the right parts of the globe, but there was no affirmative action involved. Just checking the box.

"Oh, look at Michael Ngombo's application. 99% percentile across the board, National Merit Scholar, worked during summers on a project to bring potable water to a village of displaced people in Nigeria, speaks 4 languages fluently, went to a very exclusive private school," etc., etc. "We'll admit him, he'll fit right in. And he's black, so he's an affirmative action admit, even though his father's got his MEng in chemical engineering and his MBA from the Wharton school and he's a VP for an oil company making $600k/year, while his mother is a graduate from Yale law school and a lawyer for a large progressive NGO."

In other words, most of their affirmative action admits, at least for blacks, weren't what you'd think of as "African-American". The purpose of affirmative action wasn't to help people like Barack Obama but those like Michelle Obama. Instead, most of Harvard's aff. action admits were Nigerian-American or Kenyan-American or some-other-American, immigrants or children of immigrants, and from highly educated and often wealthy families. Apart from skin color and parental immigrant status, they looked like most of Harvard's white admits: multiple languages, high income, great schools, lots of "enrichment activities" and participation in academic competitions. Obama was an outlier because his mother wasn't wealthy and she was a single mother; on the other hand, he was "normal" in that he went to a private school and had highly educated parents, none of whose ancestors had suffered under Jim Crow or been slaves in the US. It's not like he went to an underperforming school, had high crime in his neighborhood, his parents had suffered economic and education deprivation because of their race, his life experiences were limited, and teachers were champing at the bit to get away from his community. Odds are his admission checked off an affirmative action admit. (I have poor kids in my class that have never seen the ocean; we live 80 miles from the beach.)

They repurposed their affirmative action admit away from just race and ethnicity to include SES and life experiences. Race and ethnicity are still there, but it's moderated a lot from what they've said.

The Mouth

(3,150 posts)
9. I worked for a corporation that was very skilled at this
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 01:29 PM
Aug 2017

creating VISUAL diversity, but absolutely ZERO intellectual or cultural diversity.

Better than nothing, but it seems to this white, middle aged, middle class Democrat that the actual purposes of 'diversity' as must of us on the left use the term are
A) To lift individuals, and more importantly communities comprised of POC up the economic ladder, for their AND our benefit,

And

B) to get input into processes and policies from people 'outside the box' that people like myself have been born, raised and educated in.

If you have five people of four different genders and three different races but any two of them would write the exact same memo or make exactly the same decision, do you really have 'diversity'?

Maybe nobody who, like myself, grew up as white middle class as possible can ever be aware of racial biases and/or 'white privilege', but I'm part of a generation that at least consciously and overtly just doesn't care much about skin color or gender, I'd much rather have a gay, female and/or AA boss who is kind and fair and competent than a boss who looks just like me, likes the same music and food, etc, who is a lying crapweasal. The corporation was (is) looking for a lying crapweasal who can ALSO give some visual diversity when they take the picture of the executive board but who will function seamlessly in the slot....

Better nearly any diversity than the homogenous corporate board pictures from a generation ago, I guess, because even seeing a POC female VP might well give hope to a young girl and or child of colour....

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
10. Those angry white males better be careful of what they wish for . .
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 01:52 PM
Aug 2017

lots of examples . .

Harvard law school would be 2/3 Jewish if there were not a 1/3 quota.

And what about women? Most schools admit men with lower scores than
women to "balance" the enrollment. Schools are pretty hush hush about this
practice.

And don't forget those legacies - over 20 of admissions at some schools.
Dumb-shit males are admitted ahead of high scoring women, minorities, etc.

How do you think Dubya got into Yale?

It's a puzzlement why people only want to look at race . .

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
12. Yes, and other admission favoritism as well.
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 04:13 PM
Aug 2017

" It turns out Kushner's admission to Harvard was preceded by his father's $2.5 million pledge."

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
19. 100 years ago - but not for the last 75 years for sure
Mon Aug 7, 2017, 04:54 PM
Aug 2017

My Ivy League University and the main building I had my classes was Steinberg-Dietrich Hall. And another famous alum "Lauder" and the Lauder Institute...and many many others who attended the school as well as generations before and since who are jewish. There is not a limit on anyone for their religion and I say that as someone very active in the admissions process with active knowledge.

onetexan

(13,041 posts)
14. Agree race is only one factor - gender is definitely another
Sun Aug 6, 2017, 05:26 PM
Aug 2017

Harvard is an elitist school, like most of the ivy leagues. Everyone knows @Harvard enrollment is not based on merit, but based on contacts and status (who you know and your family's influence). Crazies such as dumbass Cruz and Scary Moochy got into Harvard. The unabomber attended Harvard for a time as well IIRC. Speaks volumes re: how the school selects their candidates.

And re: women, as of 2015 more women hold a bachelors degree than men, and women also outnumber men in colleges as a whole. Those ivies are patriarchal institutions. Women, especially those who don't come from status or money, are a threat to their manhood.

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