Methodist High Court Rejects First Openly Gay Bishops Consecration.

[elleng]

Source: nyt

The United Methodist Church’s highest court has ruled that the consecration of its first openly gay bishop violated church law, compounding a bitter rift over homosexuality that has brought the 13-million-member denomination to the brink of schism.

In a 6-to-3 vote made public on Friday, the church’s Judicial Council found that a married lesbian bishop, and those who consecrated her, were in violation of their “commitment to abide by and uphold the church’s definition of marriage and stance on homosexuality,” according to the decision.

The court ruled that the bishop, Karen P. Oliveto of Denver, “remains in good standing” pending further proceedings, offering her supporters a glimmer of hope. But it also raised the prospect of a suspension or forced retirement.

“Under the longstanding principle of legality, no individual member or entity may violate, ignore or negate church law,” the council ruled. “It is not lawful for the college of bishops of any jurisdictional or central conference to consecrate a self-avowed practicing homosexual bishop.”

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/us/methodist-high-court-rejects-first-gay-bishops-consecration.html?

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'The country’s third-largest religious denomination, after the Roman Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention, the United Methodist Church adopted language in 1972 declaring that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” may not be ordained because “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.” Methodists have debated that language every four years at meetings of the church’s top decision-making body, the general conference.

The denomination was deeply divided at its 2016 general conference, but averted fracture when bishops decided to appoint what they called a “Commission on a Way Forward” to propose a solution to the stalemate over issues of sexuality. The church announced this week that a special general conference, in St. Louis in February 2019, would be dedicated to resolving the church’s divisions over sexuality issues.'

[radical noodle]

1. They have ads saying they welcome everyone

but it's no secret that they've been rejecting gays for years. As a member of the Methodist Church, I can say that the "United" part took the church downhill. They united with the Evangelical United Brethren Church to make the United Methodist Church. The Methodist Church I remember was pluralistic and welcoming. Now they keep moving farther right all the time. I want nothing more to do with them and wrote a letter to them telling them my feelings. As if they cared.

[Igel]

5. It's confusing.

The church I was in in the '80s welcomed everybody.

But it didn't ordain women. Wouldn't ordain somebody that was 21, either, male or female.

You can be welcomed into the congregation without being welcomed into the ministry.

[radical noodle]

6. The General Conference

voted for full clergy rights for women in 1956, even though the first female ordained was in 1761 by John Wesley himself. In what state was your church in the 1980s? I've never known them to deny women unless they didn't have the required studies.

Wow!

[mtngirl47]

11. My ordained Methodist Aunt Mary Lou married me and my husband in 1980

[Joe Bacon]

2. Another reson to walk out

Millions of people have walked out of churches and they will never go back because they're tired of the hypocrisy!

[kwassa]

3. The Methodists have worldwide governance ...

And while much of the American part is in favor of same-sex marriage the conservatives in other countries prevent it.

By contrast, the members of the Anglican Church are controlled by country, and we Episcopalians have gay bishops, priests, and marriages. Other Anglican churches in other countries are homophobic.

[keithbvadu2]

4. What are their beliefs on divorce? Do they have divorced clergy?

God/Jesus was very specific on the subject.

[radical noodle]

7. Some conferences do, some don't

I've never known a divorced minister in the UM Church, but I feel sure there are some. A few in the church tried to talk me out of divorcing my first husband (with no success).

[Ilsa]

8. I'm not sure if it is about divorce or remarriage.

Most denominations I am familiar with or have been a member of understand that divorce is sometimes necessary. They even have divorce recovery classes. But remarriage isn't approved unless the othe spouse was unfaithful or committed a fraud in the marriage (such as a gay person marrying the opposite sex). Southern baptists, last I heard, didn't ordain remarried men unless they found a way to convince them (fraudulently?) that the first marriage didn't count (wasn't blessed by the church/god, etc).

[keithbvadu2]

9. "unless they found a way to convince them (fraudulently?) that the first marriage didn't count"

"unless they found a way to convince them (fraudulently?) that the first marriage didn't count"

Henry Vlll founded his own church to get rid of that problem.

The Catholic Church figured a way to do it for money - selling indulgences.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

If there is a need, the marketplace will provide.

[rug]

13. If you're going to bash Catholics at least do it correctly.

The canard generally brought up on this subject is that the Catholic Church sells annulments, not indulgences.

[keithbvadu2]

15. If you're going to bash me, at least do it correctly.

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his101/web/37luther.htm

The Catholic Church found it profitable to sell both, if you want to count them as separate.

[rug]

18. If you're attempting to educate me, learn your subject.

None of Luther's 95 theses were about marriage. They were about the remission of the penalty of sins through indulgences.

West Chester university is a fine school but you really should take a course instead of posting its syllabus.

Believe this stuff or not but at least know what you're attacking.

[keithbvadu2]

19. Make up your mind.

Your excuses do not mesh.

The Catholic Church found it profitable to sell both.

[rug]

20. Make up your own damn mind.

"unless they found a way to convince them (fraudulently?) that the first marriage didn't count"

Henry Vlll founded his own church to get rid of that problem.

The Catholic Church figured a way to do it for money - selling indulgences.

You're eating soup with a knife.

[keithbvadu2]

21. How much for an indulgence?

Do I get a discount as a lapsed Catholic?

[rug]

22. Nothing. You must have lapsed before you learned about simony.

[keithbvadu2]

23. Word of the day!

[bekkilyn]

10. Yes

Can a divorced person serve as clergy in The United Methodist Church?

Yes. Annual conferences may develop their own policies regarding clergy divorce. These will vary from conference to conference. Check with your annual conference for information on clergy divorce policies.

The official statement on Divorce applies to clergy as well as laypersons.

God’s plan is for lifelong, faithful marriage. The church must be on the forefront of premarital, marital, and post-marital counseling in order to create and preserve healthy relationships. However, when a married couple is estranged beyond reconciliation, even after thoughtful consideration and counsel, divorce is a regrettable alternative in the midst of brokenness. We grieve over the devastating emotional, spiritual, and economic consequences of divorce for all involved, understanding that women and especially children are disproportionately impacted by such burdens. As the Church we are concerned about high divorce rates. It is recommended that methods of mediation be used to minimize the adversarial nature and fault-finding that are often part of our current judicial processes, encouraging reconciliation wherever possible. We also support efforts by governments to reform divorce laws and other aspects of family law in order to address negative trends such as high divorce rates.

Although divorce publicly declares that a marriage no longer exists, other covenantal relationships resulting from the marriage remain, such as the nurture and support of children and extended family ties. We urge respectful negotiations in deciding the custody of minor children and support the consideration of either or both parents for this responsibility in that custody not be reduced to financial support, control, or manipulation and retaliation. The welfare of each child is the most important consideration.

Divorce does not preclude a new marriage. We encourage an intentional commitment of the Church and society to minister compassionately to those in the process of divorce, as well as members of divorced and remarried families, in a community of faith where God’s grace is shared by all.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/can-a-divorced-person-serve-as-clergy-in-the-united-methodist-church
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-nurturing-community#divorce

While the United Methodist Church is still debating the ordination of "practicing" homosexuals (and it's a *global* organization that includes a number of very conservative countries to take into account, not just the U.S.), the UMC is pretty progressive on a number of other issues, including homosexuality among membership in general.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/faqs-social-issues

I believe that ultimately the homosexuality debate concerning ordained clergy will be worked out, though it's slow to change especially due to the global nature of the church.

Despite this specific issue though, there's a lot of great things happening in general within the UMC.

[keithbvadu2]

12. "These will vary from conference to conference. Check with your annual conference for... "

"These will vary from conference to conference. Check with your annual conference for... "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_Conferences_of_the_United_Methodist_Church

"Conference" seems to be used as both a region and a timeframe.

If there are such differences of rules between regions and times, the word "united" does not seem to apply very well.


Not that I am picking on Methodists. It also applies to most other religions.

[bekkilyn]

14. I don't think it's much of an issue with regional conferences in the U.S.

There are super conservative regions outside the U.S. like Liberia who will still not allow divorced clergy as bishops. They do still seem to allow divorced clergy in general though, though I'm not extremely familiar with how they run things over there.

The "United" in United Methodist Church came about due to a merger in 1968 between the Evangelical United Brethren Church and The Methodist Church, so they used parts of both names for the new name.

So "United" doesn't mean that every UMC is going to be united in every single issue, but is united in the sense that the church does have a global general conference that is recognized throughout the UMC organization, and certain doctrinal basics of faith shared in common. (For example, the faith in the Holy Trinity, two sacraments of Communion and Baptism).

General Conference, the top policy-making body of The United Methodist Church, convenes once every four years.The conference can revise church law, as well as adopt resolutions on current moral, social, public policy and economic issues. It also approves plans and budgets for churchwide programs.

The next general conference is in 2019 so I'm sure there will be yet more debate and hashing out of issues. One of the reasons the gay clergy issue is still going on in a big way right now is that the 2016 general conference deferred the vote on that particular issue due to the widespread disagreement.

[keithbvadu2]

16. "on current moral..."

Funny how morals change.

[bekkilyn]

17. That's humanity for you :)

It would be bad though if we couldn't ever update cultural morals though. Even for morals that are supposed to be based on scripture would need to take into account current biblical scholarship, updated translation, differing views on interpretation, cultural context, etc.