Muslim Girls in Switzerland Must Attend Swim Classes With Boys, Court Says

[Coventina]

Source: NYT

In 2008, school officials in Basel, Switzerland, ordered a Muslim couple to enroll their daughters in a mandatory swimming class, despite the parents’ objections to having their girls learn alongside boys.

The officials offered the couple some accommodations: The girls, 9 and 7 at the time, could wear body-covering swimsuits, known as burkinis, during the swimming lessons, and they could undress for the class without any boys present.

But the parents refused to send their daughters to the lessons, and in 2010, the officials imposed a fine of 1,400 Swiss francs, about $1,380. The parents, Aziz Osmanoglu and Sehabat Kocabas, who have both Swiss and Turkish nationality, decided to sue.

On Tuesday, the European Court of Human Rights upheld the Swiss officials’ decision, rejecting the parents’ argument that the Swiss authorities had violated the “freedom of thought, conscience and religion” guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights, which the court enforces.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/world/europe/swiss-muslim-girls-must-attend-swim-classes-with-boys-court-says.html?_r=0

---

Good.

You move to Switzerland, you live by Swiss norms and customs.

[guillaumeb]

1. Swiss norms and customs?

Are all residents also required to have a gun in the house? No exceptions for pacifists?

So freedom of thought does not encompass freedom to act. Sad.

[pnwmom]

2. I don't see anything unreasonable in the decision. They're allowing

the girls to wear burkinis. They just are refusing to set up separate swim classes for girls alone, or to exempt girls from the swim class requirement.

They even allow a religious exemption, but it doesn't apply in this case because the Muslim religion doesn't require girls pre-puberty to be apart from boys.

[nycbos]

14. agreed

[scscholar]

52. But they're making these poor girls do things they don't want to do

How is that right? It's an attack on women.

[juxtaposed]

54. rephrase they are doing things there parents do not want them to do.

[ThirdEye]

92. It's terrible!

They might learn to swim! Give me a break...

Is it an attack on women when I make my daughter wash her hands before meals and after going to the toilet?

[Coventina]

3. Not at all the same thing, but you knew that anyway.

[guillaumeb]

6. Perhaps they should consider home schooling.

[Coventina]

7. I don't know what the laws are pertaining to home-schooling are in Switzerland, but maybe they

should consider it.

[guillaumeb]

8. Swiss law allows it, according to what I read.

Each canton decides the specifics.

[Coventina]

10. There. Problem solved. The parents can teach the girls to swim themselves.

Or choose not to and live with the possible consequences.

[MicaelS]

11. Sometimes it does not.

Should those who believe in prayer only, and not doctors, be allowed to let a sick child die?

[guillaumeb]

15. That happens in this country.

Your views?

[MicaelS]

17. I am opposed to letting anyone...

Use their faith, in that manner, or any where they can use it to justify bigotry.

[guillaumeb]

19. It is difficult for me to see the connection between a desire for same-sex

swimming lessons and accusations of bigotry.

[SunSeeker]

12. So if a parent insists their child not swim with gay students, would you feel the same way?

Religion (and backward bigotry disguised as piety) must accommodate civil law, not the other way around. If you want to partake of civil institutions, you must comply with civil law regarding nondiscrimination.

[guillaumeb]

16. Interesting characterization on your part of religious belief.

Or perhaps how you personally conceive of religious belief?

[Marengo]

22. How about a yes or no answer to that question.

[guillaumeb]

40. How I personally feel has nothing to do with two parents being

uncomfortable with mixed gender swimming.

[Marengo]

42. You were more than willing to express a personal feeling up thread. Why stop now?

[randome]

50. What does discomfort have to do with the Muslim religion? Nothing that i can see.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[guillaumeb]

51. Are you speaking as the authority on Islam?

I see nothing here either except a refusal by the authorities in one Canton to accommodate parents who have claimed a religious objection.

[Marengo]

58. A refusal you expressed disapproval of. Now, how about sexual orientation?

[guillaumeb]

61. Perhaps you should start another post. eom

[Marengo]

64. Perhaps you can answer here?

[guillaumeb]

66. #65

[Marengo]

77. That isn't an answer. Try again.

[guillaumeb]

83. Post #82

[Marengo]

86. Post #79

[guillaumeb]

88. Post #87.

[randome]

84. Anyone can 'claim' anything. What matters is how outside the norm the claim is.

And that's up to the Swiss authorities to decide. Which they did. If you put absolutely no limits on religious objections, chaos ensues, which I understand some Libertarians prefer.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[SunSeeker]

23. I did not say nor do I think all religious belief is backward or intolerant.

But some religious beliefs are anathema to a pluralistic, free society and if carried out would amount to violation of civil and criminal laws. That is just a fact.

So now that I've answered your question, how about you answer mine?

[guillaumeb]

41. See reply #40. eom

[Marengo]

43. In post #1, you said it was "sad" that Muslims in Switzerland don't have the "freedom to act"...

Sounds like the expression of a personal feeling to me. That being the case, why are your personal feelings suddenly irrelevant?

[guillaumeb]

46. My response talked about freedom to act.

But my personal feelings have nothing to do with the personal feelings of another.

[melman]

47. No

You just can't answer. If you say yes it's okay you are obviously supporting bigotry.

If you say no it's not, then you have to explain why it's different. Which you can't do.

[guillaumeb]

48. Yet another mind reader?

Quite a few of them here apparently.

[Marengo]

57. How would you feel if Muslim parents had the "freedom to act" to prohibit their children...

From swimming with gay peers? We know you feel sad that they don't have the "freedom to act" to segregate based on gender in Switzerland, so how about sexual orientation?

[guillaumeb]

60. There is no evidence of segregation,

except as you added to make what you feel is a point.

[Marengo]

70. If the objection of the Muslim parents was based on sexual orientation, would you still feel "sad"

If they were not permitted the "freedom to act"?

[guillaumeb]

72. Theoretical vs. actual.

If the requirement was for nude swimming, would you feel a parent would be wrong to insist on a swimsuit?

[Marengo]

75. You simply cannot answer, can you? Would doing so somehow compromise your position, or...

Are you simply disingenuous?

[guillaumeb]

82. The post fits in with the numerous posts about Muslims refusing to fit in

with Western cultural norms.

When I point out exactly what those Western cultural norms entail, specifically here as it relates to Swiss behavior, you ignore my citations.

Do they somehow conflict with your conception of a tolerant Switzerland? There is a strain of Islamophobia in Switzerland that is often overlooked.

SO when we speak of refusal to answer, and being disingenuous..............well, you decide.

[Marengo]

85. Post #79

[christx30]

91. What's wrong with expecting people

to live under the norms of the country thru live in? If I go to Saudi Arabia, should I demand my wife be allowed to drive, and I be allowed to drink alcohol? Of course not. They have their norms, and that's why why I'd never step foot in that backwards country, no matter the circumstances.
But that's why national borders exist. So you don't have to follow cultural norms you don't agree with. You can apply to emigrate to a place that's more like you. If you want to treat women like livestock, and seeing women with their hair or faces uncovered offends you, you can live there.
Change yourself to live in the society you have chosen. But don't think you're going to change that society to accommodate you.

[smirkymonkey]

96. Thank YOU!

[MicaelS]

98. Many on the Left..

Are incapable of operating without some sort of underdog to champion at all costs, whether real or made up. For a subset of these people their current underdog seems to be Islam.

[melman]

79. Pretty clear really

There's a point where refusal to answer is answer enough.

[Marengo]

81. True, and it certainly brings into question the authenticity of that persona.

[guillaumeb]

87. And there is a point where refusal to read information is evidence enough.

Google "confirmation bias".

[melman]

89. lol

You were asked a very simple question. You will not answer it.

[guillaumeb]

90. The question was simply a deflection.

And the refusal on the part of the original questioner, or you, to address or acknowledge my ample documentation of evidence of Swiss Islamophobia and intolerance is............... illuminating.

Perhaps your laugh is a nervous laugh?

[MicaelS]

97. A number of tenets of Islam are incompatible

With the Enlightenment and Western views on equality and personal freedom. Switzerland or any other Western nation is not being intolerant when they refuse to let these Islamic beliefs corrupt Swiss culture and values under the guise of Diversity and Tolerance.

Those with your viewpoint remind me of Lenin's quote about Capitalists and rope.

[guillaumeb]

104. Ah yes, the pure white European culture.

Being corrupted by the darker peoples with their strange customs.

In the US, the Italians and Jews were once described as dark people with strange religious beliefs and customs.
Perhaps you have read of this in your history?

By the way, did YOU read any of my links?

[MicaelS]

105. Yes I read them all.

Yes, and I stand by everything I said.

[guillaumeb]

106. Then we stand separated by this. eom

[melman]

45. Wow

Really not looking good here.

[IronLionZion]

20. And all should lighten their hair and skin too

until they all look like the girl on the Swiss Miss package

[guillaumeb]

21. Ah yes, the blue eyes, light skin, and blond hair custom.

Germany had such customs also.
As well as a religious sub-group that was accused of foreign beliefs and practices.

[Marengo]

59. Are the Swiss in question here behaving like Nazis?

[guillaumeb]

62. My post clearly expressed what I wished to say.

Do you feel the Swiss are behaving tolerantly here?

Before answering, feel free to read a bit:

Switzerland moves towards nationwide burqa ban as draft law approved in parliament

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-burqa-ban-swiss-parliament-national-council-draft-law-vote-latest-muslim-veils-walter-a7334631.html

The Real Reasons Why the Swiss Voted to Ban Minarets

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-ammann/the-real-reasons-why-the_b_373947.html

After reading, feel free to explain to me about tolerance and Switzerland.

[Marengo]

63. I'm looking for a yes or no answer, if you are capable of such a thing.

[guillaumeb]

65. Read the links and draw your own conclusions about Swiss tolerance.

Some things are more complicated and require more analysis before answering.

If you are unaware of these issues as they relate to Switzerland, this might enlighten you.

If you do not care about these issues, that will enlighten me.

[Marengo]

67. Clearly YOU have performed sufficient analysis to form an opinion which permits my question...

To be answered by you as either yes or no as I have specifically requested. Shall we try again? Are they behaving like Nazis? Yes or no only please.

[guillaumeb]

68. The Swiss are not paragons of tolerance.

If you read the linked articles, it seems clear that the Swiss have very little tolerance when it comes to practicing Muslims.

As to the Swiss behaving like NAZIs:

Swiss Banks Called to Account for Nazi Ties

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/14/local/me-holocaust14

Again, draw your own conclusions.

[Marengo]

69. I'm asking for YOUR opinion in the form of a yes or no answer.

[guillaumeb]

71. And I am providing information to make an informed decision.

Read and accept the information or not. In my opinion, the post tens to present a view of the tolerant Swiss confronted with something that does not conform with Swiss notions of what is acceptable.

[Marengo]

76. Again, I am asking for your opinion in the form of a closed question. If you are debating in good...

Faith, your reply will conform. If you continue to evade, what choice do have but to assume you are not debating in good faith?

[SunSeeker]

24. No, Switzerland does not have laws requiring you look like the Swiss Miss girl.

It has laws banning gender discrimination. That is what these parents wish to ignore.

[IronLionZion]

25. Don't they have any conservative Christians in Europe?

Gender separation is common for the conservative elements of many faiths.

Many school PE classes here in the US are gender separated, including swimming classes. It's not unreasonable.

[SunSeeker]

27. It is unreasonable to violate local anti-discrimination laws.

They chose to emigrate to Switzerland, they should respect their laws.

Of course there are conservative Christians in Europe. There are also much more conservative European countries that do separate out the sexes. This family could have emigrated to one of those countries. Or home schooled.

[pnwmom]

30. It isn't unreasonable to refuse to provide separate swim classes or separate math

classes or anything else.

Swiss schools DO have provisions for a religious exemption to the swimming classes, but these girls don't qualify for that because they are pre-puberty and the Muslim religion doesn't require separation before puberty.

And the schools allow girls to wear the full body burkinis, so what is wrong with this court's decision?

[whathehell]

26. Um, no..

Nice try, though.

[whathehell]

28. Yeah, because if you want co-ed swim classes

You must he a Nazi racist too....

[HassleCat]

78. Except for one thing

Most Swiss people don't look like that.

[IronLionZion]

80. Liberals should be encouraging diversity as a custom

I want people to know how to swim. A lot of people drown because they never learned it. So if having gender separated swimming classes just like many physical education classes here in the US helps people learn how to swim, then I would support it.

Otherwise, their families choose to opt out and their kids would never learn. This is a big problem that many people don't think about.

It's not unreasonable. I don't think it's some patriarchal oppression of girls to have separate swimming classes.

[grantcart]

29. Switzerland does not consider itself as a bastion of individual rights

All male citizens are required to join the military and have firearms in the house. However they must take their sealed ammunition to be checked every year.

Everything in Switzerland is regulated and I have found it a sad and miserable place.

The basic level of government is the Canton and the whole community gets involved in individual cases like disability and welfare.

The suicide rate in Switzerland is very high.

If people migrate to Switzerland they have the right to be as miserable as the rest of the Swiss.

And yes pacifists are required to keep a gun in the house but they are not required to use it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/europe/swiss-vote-to-keep-mandatory-army-service.html

[former9thward]

31. The suicide rate in Switzerland is not "very high".

It is 77th in the world. The U.S. is 50th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[grantcart]

32. Don't tell the Swiss.

It has been long established and admitted by the Swiss that they have long held the highest rates of suicide in Europe which has to be put into context by two factors: 1) Doctor assisted suicide has been legal there for 80 years and 2) All males are required to be in the military at some point and all members of the military must keep guns and ammunition in their homes. The lists on the page you reference are highly unreliable which is proven by the fact that the rates between the two tables are off by a factor of almost a 100%. Does SK have a suicide rate of 28 per 100,000 or 37?

But if you spend anytime in Switzerland you will see frequent reference to the "Swiss suicide problem" in the media, especially around the winter and holiday season, although I was not aware that there had been a decline since the 80s and 90s when I had been there. It is a commonly discussed issue among the Swiss.

One year I received an apologetic note in a Christmas card from a person who I had only met 3 times. We got along well but wouldn't have considered him a close friend. He sent me a long personal note about why he was sending the Christmas cards out 5 weeks late ( our family only sent Holiday cards to very close friends and relatives).

He was sorry that he was delayed because in addition to the normal extra time required for the Holidays he was very sad to tell us that his wife, who apparently had a long struggle with depression, had committed suicide two weeks before Christmas. I was stunned to get the note but thought it a very telling example of how the Swiss are slaves to convention and routine even in the most tragic circumstances. He was a father in his 40s with two small children with a large business and I had a hard time understanding how he felt writing acquaintances like me was a good use of his time. Perhaps it was a kind of therapy for him.

Better sourced statistics show that historically Switzerland has had historically very high suicide rates when compared with like type countries although it has improved recently.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Switzerland

http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-statistics.html

The nation of Switzerland has a high suicide rate compared to many other European countries such as Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. From the mid-'80s to the present day, the rate has gradually declined. For example, there were 14.3 suicide deaths per 100,000 people in 2007, compared with 22 suicides in 1984.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Switzerland#/media/File:Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg

“We are one of the countries which traditionally has the highest figures in suicides. Not everybody is happy here,” Ambros Uchtenhagen, Professor Emeritus for Social Psychiatry at Zurich University told The Local


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-s-troubling-record-of-suicide/8301804
If you look at suicides by gun only, Switzerland, by admission of the Swiss is the highest in Europe:

Here’s one record the Swiss may not be so enthusiastic about holding: more suicides are committed here using guns per capita than anywhere else in Europe.

The issues of gun suicide and Switzerland’s high rate of weapon ownership came under the spotlight again in January. The police chief overseeing security at the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos turned his service revolver against himself a day before the event began.

[guillaumeb]

49. And apparently all must not only respect, but abide by these customs.

Somewhat totalitarian, but judging by some responses here, not to be called a bad thing.

[RelativelyJones]

53. As miserable as the Swiss?

http://www.sciencealert.com/the-world-happiness-index-2016-just-ranked-the-happiest-countries-on-earth

[grantcart]

56. waiting for someone to reference this wonderfully misnamed index

it measures

GDP,
Life expectancy
contributions to charity
social services
freedom
corruption

None of which reflects on happiness.

Now and index on friendliness, interaction with neighbors, sense of humor, optimistic outlook would be the kinds of things that relate to real happiness.

Singapore would achieve similar high ratings but walking up the street in either capital you would be hard pressed to find someone with a smile or have a friendly conversation, and I have lived in both.

I also have lived in refugee camps and subsistence villages where everyone is friendly, happy and more than willing to share their limited food supply for tonight's dinner.

The elements of the happiness index is as relevant as ascribing how well informed people are by how many TVs they have.

[RelativelyJones]

93. Apparently you have an ax to grind against the Swiss

What you describe bears no resemblance to the Switzerland I know. Your view is simply subjective but you present it as universal. It is indeed not.

[grantcart]

95. I had extensive experience in Switzerland but it is

a little dated. The expatriates enjoyed it but I found the locals dour, unsmiling, and unfriendly.

In comparison I found Asia a much friendlier, happier and enjoyable experience.

All and I mean all of the Swiss I knew who travelled to Asia had the same opinion and spent as much time there as the could.

The perspective of Switzerland as a dry, micro regulated community low on cheerfulness, spontaneity and easily developed warm relationships is widely held in Europe when contrasted with places like Italy, Spain and Portugal.

I admire Switzerland like I admire Singapore, well organized communities that provide maximize benefits to their populace. That is not the same as being happy or cheerful. One friend took me to a Canton welfare meeting where they reviewed all of the villagers who were on welfare. They discussed each person's particular situation, drinking habits etc.

If you take the train from Italy to Switzerland you leave one system that is filled with graffiti, dirty and unkempt. Walk a few feet into Switzerland and even though they are Italian Swiss everything is clean, we'll maintained and orderly.

Switzerland is a beautiful, we'll managed country that has excellent services for its populace. The perspective that it is also reserved and unfriendly and not a bastion of personal privacy was not my personal take but one that was shared widely among well travelled Swiss.

[RelativelyJones]

99. Your impressions are indeed dated and simply your point of view

I have lived extensively in Switzerland the last twenty years and when one makes an effort to display interest in the culture and society then the Swiss are very warm and welcoming. If you have your mind made up, or rely on disparaging anecdotes to be dismissive of a culture, then it is no wonder you did not feel particularly welcome in Switzerland. This would be the same for any culture if you come across as standoffish.

Simply because you travelled with a few Swiss whose opinion you latched onto in order to justify your negative impressions proves nothing. I have had many Asian colleagues and friends during my time in Switzerland who are happily integrated, raising their families, and rather admiring of Swiss culture.

You present subjective impressions as universal truths and simply promote clichés because Switzerland is not your cup of tea and you prefer other countries. Fair enough, everyone has their favorite places. I invite you to challenge your rather ossified thinking of Switzerland and Europe generally. The Swiss are rather well regarded by its neighbors. There will always be those who think as you do and seek out "evidence" for their negative opinion of Switzerland, but that is true of any cluster of neighbors.

For some reason the court ruling set you off on an anti-Swiss post about suicide rates. Rather a non sequitur, but it appears you just wanted to kick Switzerland a bit.

[grantcart]

101. You are not following on point very well

1) I had no problem with the court ruling

2) I worked for a UN agency with headquarters in Geneva and was there frequently over a long period. I have lots of Swiss friends and expats who still live there and I emailed them and congratulating them on how "warm and friendly" the Swiss had become and they sent some funny replies basically repeating old jokes about how grumpy Swiss are in public.

3) Admiring the Swiss culture has nothing to do with it but I haven't met anyone from any country that spent time there that hasn't expressed some frustration about the amount of regulation and the cold bureaucracy that controls so many aspects of day to day life.

4) None of which you refer to is on point however. Never said that you couldn't make friends in Switzerland or that if you live there you wont find a niche of people to relate to. In comparison with other countries Switzerland is not considered a particular friendly or happy place. Neither is Singapore or Paris but I enjoy myself when I go there and make friends. The point is that there are many other places that are more friendly and the people seem much happier going about their daily life but they won't be as well run, or well kept or as 'efficient' as Switzerland.

Here are random examples of that widely held perspective of Switzerland by well travelled expats.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/unfriendliest-countries-for-expats-revealed-expatriates-emigration-sweden-denmark-kuwait-a7216316.html

Among the 10 most unfriendly destinations were European countries Denmark, Switzerland and Norway. In Switzerland, 36 per cent of expats said the attitude towards foreign residents is generally bad, while just over half of people find the local culture hard to get used to despite the generally high quality of life.

I understand why people might feel that way about Denmark because the social life really centers around commerce and if you have business there you will be constantly entertained by very nice people. I would take a big exception to the criticism of the Norwegians because they are exceptionally nice but are very shy.

http://www.thelocal.ch/20150924/expats-in-switzerland-have-worst-social-life

Expats in Switzerland have the worst social life of 39 global expat destinations, according to a survey commissioned by banking giant HSBC.


Switzerland scored bottom for social life in the 2015 Expat Explorer survey, which assessed expat life around the world in 27 criteria split into three main categories – economics, experience and family.

The dire score contributed to Switzerland's slide to tenth place overall, after taking the top spot last year.

According to the survey, now in its eighth year, expats in Switzerland find it difficult to integrate with locals and make friends but enjoy high economic benefits and a safe environment in which to raise a family

(some of the polling results)

“Unfortunately, while there are four different coexisting languages and cultures in Switzerland, the acceptance of diversity does not seem to extend to newcomers,” the authors noted.

“Thirty-six per cent of expats in Switzerland say the attitude towards foreign residents is generally bad, compared with the global average of 17%. In fact, 67% overall disagree when asked whether it is easy to make local friends in Switzerland.”

Indeed, Switzerland came fourth from bottom in the “friendliness” sub-category, with only the Czech Republic, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait saving its blushes.

(And the most interesting statistic was that of the Swiss expats of which more than one third didn't want to return to Switzerland. That can be misleading however because that particular statistic is going to be effected by job placement availability and not the kinds of factors we were discussing)

http://www.expatica.com/ch/news/SW-Expats-rate-Uganda-more-attractive-than-Switzerland_760271.html

Personally I would have no problem living in Switzerland, Paris or Singapore or other places that people find unfriendly because I very actively interact with people when I am in public (much to my families embarrassment). A trip to Target normally will generate a half dozen extended interactions (for the last year I try to make a special effort to engage folks that have dress consistent with Muslim countries and have a friendly discussion. When I personally apologize for the idiotic things that Trump has said I get the biggest grins and laughs in the store).

Switzerland is heavily regulated and they put more emphasis on conformity that individual liberty but I grew up in a Calvinist tradition so I feel at home with it.

In the case referred to by this article the Swiss established a rule for secular education and they would apply it fairly to a conservative Mennonite or Muslim who wanted to dress modestly. They seemed to go the extra mile in trying to find an accommodation to meet the concerns. My larger point was that the Swiss are very fair but have strict and extensive regulations. If someone is thinking about moving to Switzerland they should be prepared to be flexible enough to fit into the Swiss way of doing things because if they are going to try and fight the system there it is going to be an exhausting and futile exercise.

[RelativelyJones]

102. Simply having worked for the UN,

Or gathering random links to support your personal prejudice, means little. It may make you feel better to find evidence to excuse away your inability to find much to appreciate in Swiss culture or its people, but this actually says more about you than Switzerland.

You obviously have a pet peeve against Switzerland. Fair enough, but it simply a personal thing, not the universal conditions you so want it to be. The regulations are hardly burdensome in Switzerland. Small potatoes compared to most other countries, actually.

[muntrv]

4. Agree. Just like if you live in Turkey, you live by Turkish norms and customs.

[Coventina]

5. Agreed, although, that might be hard to define, as Turkey is very varied in its population.

Some are very traditional, some are very modern. And, Turkey itself is in a bit of a state of flux regarding culture and beliefs.

So, defining what is the "norm" in Turkey might be a bit harder than defining the "norm" in Switzerland.

[grantcart]

33. Although Turkey has been established as a 'secular' country

that would allow for basic universal non religious specific norms for the public in public functions.

Not so clear what the future of Turkey is however.

[SunSeeker]

9. Good. nt

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

13. Yes. They have chosen to live in a secular country.

What the believe or practice in private is pretty much up to them, but the need to abide by the rules of the country they're in.

[nycbos]

18. Exactly

[romanic]

34. Those poor girls.

Having to abide and follow the secular laws that treat them as equals and not lesser than. How Islamophobic.

[Grey Lemercier]

35. wonderful news!

[riderinthestorm]

36. They were kids when their parents wanted them sex segregated

Kids don't give a shit @ these issues unless the parents make a big deal @ their sexuality (@ 10 years old!!!)

[JI7]

37. GOOD

[leftynyc]

38. Good

No reason whatsoever to separate the genders for swim classes. None other than backwards misogynist bullshit.

[Blue_Tires]

39. oh, FFS...

It's not like the parents didn't know the rules before deciding to have children...

[rollin74]

44. good decision by the court

[pansypoo53219]

55. its 2017, not 1017.

look at a calendar.

[Dawson Leery]

73. Live in a secular western nation, live by enlightened rules.

The court was correct in it's ruling.

[dflprincess]

74. This line kind of jumped out at me

"The officials offered the couple some accommodations: The girls, 9 and 7 at the time, could wear body-covering swimsuits, known as burkinis, during the swimming lessons, and they could undress for the class without any boys present."

the other girls undress with boys present (and vice versa)? I had coed swimming lessons as a kid and we had separate locker rooms for the sexes. Call me uptight, but I still prefer it that way.

(Granted we might wear our swimming suits under our clothes on the way to class, but going home no one wanted to put clothes on over a wet suit so we had to take them off.)

[JI7]

100. yeah, but i might feel differently if i grew up doing it which i assume might be more common in

europe than in the US.

but i think it's reasonable to allow them to dress without boys and wear fully covered swimsuits.

[RelativelyJones]

103. Boys and girls in Swiss schools

Never change in front of each other.

[SteamAddict]

94. Good

Being progressive in a progressive country applies to everyone.