Postal Service default appears likely
Source: USA Today
WASHINGTON -- The cash-strapped U.S. Postal Service is within weeks of defaulting on a legally required $5.5 billion payment into a health benefits fund for future retirees.
So far, it appears House leaders have no intention of preventing that from happening -- they have postponed any action on relief measures until at least fall.
While a Senate-passed bill would significantly reduce the amount of the payment, the House has not acted on that legislation. House leaders also have reversed plans to take up a rival measure that would cut the payment to $1 billion, according to a spokesman for one of the measure's sponsors, Rep. Dennis Ross, R-Fla.
"It appears, although we have the votes, leadership does not intend for postal reform to come to the floor before (the) August recess," the spokesman, Fred Piccolo, said in an email late Wednesday.
Under a schedule laid out in the 2006 Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, the Postal Service also is supposed to make a $5.6 billion payment into the retiree health fund at the end of September.
Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-07-13/postal-service-default/56191812/1?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=206567
Atman
(31,464 posts)It's by design. It was the plan all along. They earned their contributions from FedEx and UPS.
.
antigop
(12,778 posts)I think I read that there was a law passed that said pensions had to be funded ahead of time, which created a "false deficit" situation. I can't remember how many years it was, but it seemed like it was in the neighborhood of 7 years. Someone needs to dig up the information and post it. This is all a big crock of shit.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)No private plan has to operate with such a millstone around its neck. That was a poison pill specifically designed to drive the USPS under so it could a) do what big corps like airlines do and use bankruptcy to weasel out of its union contracts; or b) go belly-up and let itself be privatized.
Note that mail service is among the few government services specifically provided for in the Constitution:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power... To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)of what they've done. Thank god we have Obama in the White House. Hopefully he'll stop it from happening.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)#1, raise rates. Nobody is going to whine that much if you increase stamps costs even 50%, except bulk mailers. The tiny amount of stuff I still mail, I don't care if a stamp is $.60.
#2, this was an arbitrary rule imposed by Congress. No other business operates under these same rules.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Thus the internet has had little effect on the Post Office. It has affected the amount of bills and payment of bills, but letters died out in the 1960s with AT&Ts ad campaign to get people to call instead (Which could be done with completion of direct computer operated phone switching systems to all of the US by 1964).
From that point forward the main source of revenue for the Post Office has been "Junk Mail, NOT First Class Mail. Bills and payments were a major source of income after the 1960s, but minor compared to "Junk Mail". Letter Carried today and carrying TWICE as much mail as they did 20-30 years ago, but it is mostly "Junk Mail".
Third Class Mail (Which is what most "Junk Mail" is) is a huge profit center for the Postal Service. With Third Class mail, if the address is bad, the mail is destroyed NOT returned to center. The difference in price between First Class and Third Class is based on the Difference do to the fact if First Class Mail can NOT be delivered it is sent back to the mailer (Or to the dead letter office to open to see where the letter is suppose to go, or to find out where to send the letter back to).
Thus the Postal Service throws out a lot of "Junk Mail" as un-deliverable and still makes money.
The problem with the Postal Service is NOT the decline in First Class mail due to the Internet, but this pre funding of Pensions. I always believed the plan was made to make the Postal Service have large amount of cash in its Pension's plan so that if the Postal Service is ever sold off, who ever gets it will have a huge Pension Plan to loot (Which is what Romeny and Bain was noted for whenever they took over a company and later bankrupted it).
Now, the Postal Unions had agreed to the level of Funding of the Pensions, but relied on information given to them, Congress and the Public that it was a good way to make sure they members will have Pensions. No one mentioned that this level of funding was unheard of anywhere and would bankrupt the Postal Service. Thus based on the Information they had the Unions supported the law the set up this Pension funding (the law did NOT set up the Pensions themselves, the Pensions have been around for decades, the change only affected how much was to be paid into the Pension fund).
There is an old rule when looking into a debacle, the rule is "Who benefits?". Who benefits if the Postal Pension funds are over funded? If this was a defined contribution plan, the excess would go to the survivors of the Postal workers (thus Defined Pension Plans are NEVER over funded, in fact all are underfunded). Since this is a defined CONTRIBUTION plan, the excess stays with the Postal Service, but that makes no sense, since that means it should go back to Congress, the "owner" of the Postal Service.
On the other hand, if the GOP does what it wants to do, sell of Government asserts for "Private Business does it better", then the Postal Service, with a huge Pension fund, looks like a good investment to anyone who wants to Post Office.
Before this contribution plan was adopted, the Postal Service was looking at a future deficit in its Pension Plans, and since it was a GOVERNMENT Pension plan, Congress would have had to come up with the difference. This was based on drop in revenue from First Class Mail do to the Internet and an expected drop in third class mail, that never occurred. The plan adopted, was like most laws passed by Congress written by lobbyists and as such reflected what the lobbyists wanted more then want Congress or the Postal Service wanted. Ideally the Postal Service were doing most of the Lobbying (followed by the Postal Unions) but it appears someone else, people who support privatization of the Post Office, managed to get a hold of the lobbying and get want they wanted, probably by getting the Postal Service and Postal Unions to agree they plan was better then no plan. Thus we ended up with what we have, should be repealed and replace by what the Postal Service and the Union want now (Given
Yes, A slight change in the funding of the Pension plan would have solved the potential problem (or the problem would never have occurred due to the lack of drop in Third Class Mail). A cut back to three times a week mail delivery would have been sufficient to "Solve the problem" (by Law, everyone in the United States, with very limited exceptions, must be able to get mail six days a week).
A similar cut back occurred from the 1940s to the 1980s as more and more areas of the United States lost its twice a day Postal Delivery (Yes, in the 1940s you received your mail TWICE a day in Urban Areas, in Central Business districts that stayed the norm till the 1980s, it was common for someone to mail something in the morning in most Central Business Districts AND it be received in the same Central Business District in the Afternoon, the raise of the bicycle messengers was the result of the Post Office ending this twice a day delivery system).
All Congress has to do is repeal the law requiring mail delivery six days a week, and require it only one day a week, but permit six days a week delivery if reasonable, i.e. permit the Post Office to decide who gets delivery more then once a week, but force the Post Office to delivery at least once a week). This would give the Postal Service the flexibility ti needs to deliver all the Third Class Mail it wants (and keep the Postal System open for legal papers that MUST go through the Postal System). People who use Third Class mail will have to objection to such a system, all they want is for you to get third ad during the week, the exact day of the week is unimportant to them. The Legal System will have to adjust, they assume six days a week mail service, but extending time to reflect actual mail service would be sufficient (i.e. assume three days instead of one day mail service).
The Postal Service needs to have some flexibility, ending the legal requirement of six days a week service would be a good step. I foresee the Postal Service did what the Post Office did from the 1940s to the 1980s slowly cutting back service to what is actually needed and expected but keeping up service in areas where it is needed and expected (i.e. Central Business Districts). Most people no longer need six days a week mail service, so lets get rid of the LEGAL requirement for such service and leave the Postal Service to decide who retains six days a week service, and who loses it.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)Especially since, as you point out, most of the mail is junk mail. Let business get a private firm to deliver their material if they want it more frequently (I also think the law which says only postal carriers can put material in your mailbox should be eliminated).
sketchy
(458 posts)A lot of information and links in this earlier message thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101458967#post30
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)brentspeak
(18,290 posts)rely on the low-cost service only the USPS provides.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)So of course they are forced to rely on it. Get rid of that law and let's see what happens.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 16, 2012, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)
from you.
UPS and FedEx don't provide low-cost delivery parcel service; only USPS does. And UPS and FedEx's already expensive parcel service rates are kept lower than they otherwise are thanks to the market competition that USPS provides. UPS and FedEx also have no inclination to deliver low-cost letter delivery service -- should they be allowed to deliver letters. More to the point: Small business owners nationwide would go out of business in a years' time would they be limited to asking their would-be customers to pony up elevated UPS and FedEx shipping rates for the items they sell or if they themselves were forced to cough up unaffordable UPS and FedEx rates for all the products they must receive.
In short: Kindly try your RW disingenuity over at the other website; they might bite (maybe). Because it sure as hell didn't work here.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)What is dishonest about my post? Since you have accused me of that you have an obligation to show it is dishonest.
See my post #44 for the law.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)That would be news to the millions of small businesses that rely on the low-cost service only the USPS provides.
You
So of course they are forced to rely on it. Get rid of that law and let's see what happens.
Your followup 'question':
You (a) disingenuously implied that my post complained that USPS patrons are "forced" to rely on USPS letter delivery service; and b) disingenuously redirected the topic away from my post's primary point, which was that USPS customers actually want USPS's low-cost delivery service.
Any other questions?
former9thward
(32,025 posts)which is the most effective point of delivery they have to use the post office. That means they ARE forced to use the post office. And you know it. No one knows who has low cost service because the post office has a monopoly on the mailbox. And you know it. You are the only one here being disingenuous. And you know it.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Small businesses pay about $.14 on postcards.
I see the postmarks and round stamps every damn day.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)I didn't think so.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)I'm beginning to think you have a strange psychological problem involving the wish to appear as foolish as possible to as many people as possible:
http://www.savvysugar.com/USPS-vs-UPS-vs-FedEx-18984956
USPS vs. UPS vs. FedEx: Which Postal Service Has the Best Prices?
...
With all this happening, I'm sure a lot of consumers are interested to know if the other delivery service can match up to the USPS. Here's a quick price comparison of the three postal services when mailing a one, five, 10, and 15-pound standard overnight package from San Francisco to Chicago:
Weight (in pounds)
USPS FedEx UPS
1 $31.60 $54.86 $57.79
5 $49.70 $77.67 $80.50
10 $73.30 $107.30 $110
15 $91.90 $136 $138.58
Occulus
(20,599 posts)He's just lying.
Response to Occulus (Reply #68)
Post removed
former9thward
(32,025 posts)And again you know that. BTW I don't know the price differences between USPS, FedEx, and UPS but if USPS is the low cost player how do the private companies stay in business?
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)Every business wants to maximize their profit. So if USPS was cheaper, they would use it. But no business I order from does. Obviously it is not that much cheaper. But if congress actually thought higher rates would affect businesses, they could get rid of the corporate income tax for these companies so they could evenly compete with the USPS. If USPS can deliver everything cheaper than everyone else, why are their minimum price amounts for their competitors making it illegal for them to even try to compete with them? Maybe because the government knows that private companies can do it much cheaper.
USPS is a bunch of snail mail spammers that fill my mailbox with junk every day. 97% of everything I get goes in the trash. They waste gas, trees, and landfill space delivering unwanted junk. If you support the environment you don't support delivering junk mail. I don't care if they are union. If email spammers and telemarketers had unions I wouldn't support them either.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I am a postal employee.
You were only telling half the truth downthread, too. The reason so many progressive Senators and the APWU approved of the 2006 law was because the APWU contract (and the two other unions' contracts) would have been voided by the Republicans if it had not been passed, as has been explained to you before. That was the threat, as told to us by our union. It was a Hobson's choice, and you knew that before you posted here.
Your clear intent is to spread rightwing propaganda on this topic, and others. Any even cursory examination pf your posting history, in virtually any thread, will bear this out in spades.
I would like to ask you to stop talking about this topic. You speak, consistently, on a broad range of topics, from a rightwing position of (almost certainly intentional) ignorance. You quite literally do not know what you are talking about. As an employee of over 15 years, I do.
Please stop.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)I made a statement that only postal employees can put material in mailboxes. You said "Absolutely untrue".
The law: 18 U.S.C. 1725 states: "Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title"
You can't be a postal employee "of over 15 years" and not know this.
Please stop.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I'll post a paystub if you like. I have one of those and my 2012 Personal Statement of Benefits, personal information redacted, ready to post here.
As for the law you quoted, yes. I'm not a letter carrier and I'd forgotten about that law. That doesn't actually prevent anyone from doing so, and when it happens it's rarely reported.
You are wrong about the USPS' problems, you are disingenuous as all hell about the solutions and causes, and you advocate privatization.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)It does prevent people from doing so. That is why flyers are stuck on your doorknobs, screens, patio and everyplace else.
I don't advocate privatization. I advocate a rational restructuring of the post office to fit today's realities. If not it will go off the cliff taking all the jobs with it.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Bullshit. That's code, and we've all heard it before. USPS employees are intimately familiar with that kind of disingenuous, rightwing doublespeak.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)You would have been advocating for the buggy whip makers and blacksmiths. Fighting against technology putting them out of jobs. You are not progressive, you are regressive.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)sketchy
(458 posts)Your words:
"Let business get a private firm to deliver their material if they want it more frequently"
former9thward
(32,025 posts)I said the post office should reduce delivery. That would be rational. The post office used to deliver twice a day. When they decided to reduce that service and the internet was around you would have been screaming about that. If business wants delivery 6 times a week or even 7 let they use some other service. The post office should be be a water boy for business.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)The first happened before the second even appeared.
Yet again, you demonstrate your ignorance.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)care to READ on the history of the USPS? For god sakes, a copy of the Constitution would do you some good. YES it was designed to deliver magazines, and news papers and letters and yes to be a water boy for business. THE FOUNDERS, you might have heard of them, UNDERSTOOD the role of this in the development of the country. Why, which I doubt you know, it is the ONLY FEDERAL SERVICE actually described in the founding documents.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but keep that mantra alive.
There is PLENTY of info here on the OLD DU, if you cared to actually learn something
The 2006 bill was MEANT to destroy it so it can be privatized.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)People used to get bills by mail and pay by mail. They used to get newsletters, magazines, etc. by mail. Now much of that is handled by email. Countless things the post office used to handle is now done by the internet. The government sends reminders, like car registration, by email instead of a letter. Yet you seize on one problem and ignore everything else.
As you well know the 2006 bill was sponsored by progressives , Henry Waxman and Danny Davis, and supported at the time by the postal union. You can argue that was a mistake but it is a fact.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you clearly don't understand the issue.
you either didn't read the article, willfully disregarded it.
and your solution won't fix things.
and you are basically advocating to cut the postal service (which won't fix the problem) and seem to be indicating private mail service to replace it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and union busting, you have swallowed this hook, line and sinker and arguing with people who have FIRST HAND info.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)Are you suggesting the reason to keep the post office in its present mode is so they can be carriers for junk mail? I say let the post office change to meet today's realities and if your corporate friends don't like it they can use some other service.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I am a postal employee and I know, far better than you, what is really going on.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)they are letting customers into the processing plant these days to process their mail? Who knew?
Next you'll tell me you are also sorting it and self delivering it.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)Occulus
(20,599 posts)former9thward
(32,025 posts)I didn't know I had a stalker.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)from the day you joined.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)You of course are violating DU TOS in several of these posts but you must think they don't apply to you. But maybe no one alerts on you because like me they don't give a shit about you.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Your username made me so.
I'm only now saying what I've thought the whole time.
I usually skip your posts because it's always the same rightwing BS.
sketchy
(458 posts)It's simple really. This is a public message board.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)As you say it is a message board (btw it is private not public, the administrators determine who posts here). And things can be discussed. But many just like to throw smears into the wind -- rightie, corporatist, etc rather than debate issues and facts.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)You claim the union opposed it. BS Here is their testimony before Congress TWO YEARS after the passage of the law.
The passage of the postal reform act was intended by Congress to preserve and protect the Postal Service for the American people, he said in testimony on behalf of the union.
That doesn't sound like opposition to me (or to anyone in Congress).
http://www.apwu.org/news/webart/2008/webart-0840-paea_testimony-080508.htm
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Facts slanted to the right.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)Is this Groundhog Day? Do I actually have to replicate my response to your earlier propaganda from Feb 2012? Guess so:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101458967#post66
...
("former9thward", quoting APWU Legislative Director Myke Reid's testimony to Congress:
brentspeak: The APWU legislative director was a member of Congress, and was speaking on behalf of Congress in defense of the bill? Who knew? In any case, you (once again -- gee, what a surprise!) conveniently left out this portion of his testimony:
(brentspeak, quoting the rest of Reid's sentence former9thward left out
So he wasn't even "defending" the bill, after all, was he? His appearance before the Postal Reform Committee was to send a warning to those who were seeking to dismantle and privatize the USPS not to misuse the provisions of the new law.
Ok, with that out of the way, fast forward to July, 2012:
former9thward:
Is APWU the only postal union? You didn't know that? If not, why are you here on this thread acting as if you know what you're talking about? Meanwhile, other DUer's have stated that several of the unions opposed the 2006 bill at that time, but were powerless to stop it from being passed.
Would you like to quit now or later?
Occulus
(20,599 posts)I'm not surprised. He finally got called on his BS by multiple people. My guess is he lies low for the rest of the day.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)And repeat the same crap all over again.
former9thward
(32,025 posts)The APWU is the main union. And you know it. If others opposed it provide the links. In his testimony he certainly was not attacking the bill. And you know it.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)There is no "main union". Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)A lot of small businesses rely on the USPS, and not for junk mail and bills, but for priority rate boxes.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Obligation to deliver the mail with consistency. The private delivery services cost more, often don't deliver even when you pay to have it signed for. The list is long and I've dealt with their outrageous excuses for years.
And the private services don't care about every person getting their service, either. I'm tired of hearing the RW privatization is better bullshit. It's never cheaper since a profit has to be added on top, that's the logic. Those who promote it are usually getting a cut. I hate what the GOP is doing to the USPS.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)from the get-go. Why on god's green earth would they stop now?
I still can't believe some so-called progressive senators were in on it.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)of massive collusion between corporate Republicans and corporate Democrats....change will be possible.
Deliberate partisan denial is what enables the one percent to get away with looting this country. They use the parties to ensure that we will never be unified against what they are doing to us.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=146626
sendero
(28,552 posts).... can see that but don't hold your breath waiting for acknowledgement around here.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Also the cost to send anything will way, way up. This is a union-busting scheme, pure and simple.
I have not mentioned today how much I fucking HATE Republicans.
I hate them and the traitors in the Democratic Party who don't fight for progressive values.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,378 posts)madrchsod
(58,162 posts)i betting not one dam thing.
elleng
(130,974 posts)Their 'license' will be revoked???
Haven't studied the particular subject, but I kind of like the thoughts that go with consequences of failure to make full payment: :shrug
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)the President would never sign the bill. It's all Kabuki theater for the Tparty asshats.
julian09
(1,435 posts)They will close many processing centers, and have huge layoffs.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)since 1973, can you say MASS LAYOFFS?
april
(1,148 posts)NickB79
(19,253 posts)ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)...and that's why they won't lift a finger to top it. These GOONS hate anything run by the gov't - especially anything that's efficient and works and has a union - like the USPS. And they want it GONE and PRIVATIZED - run by UPS and FedEx.
That's their objective. Of course they're not going to do anything to stop their plan, hatched in 2006 under bu$h. It's progressing exactly as they intended.
bonniebgood
(943 posts)haven't mention the appointed member of the Board that runs the Postal Service 11 member Board. All but Two were appointed
by Bush. The other two are appointed by Obama. The democrats, including President Obama know damn well what's going on. One of the two is vice President Biden's friend. I have commented on this board and i have email Ed Shultz. Please get the message out about this republicans on this board.
http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/leadership/board-governors-bios.htm#p=1
former9thward
(32,025 posts)For example, the Chairman of the Board is Thurgood Marshall Jr., who was appointed by Bush. He was a sub level cabinet appointee for Clinton and served as an aide to Gore. He is the son of one of the most liberal Justices of the SC. He certainly is a Democrat.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)They will use this payment to say we need a rewrite or just that we can ignore some of what it says until they tell us we are to ignore more and more -- all the things in it they don't like because it means they can't make us work harder for less keeping their sorry bank accounts looking prosperous.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)And they haven't stopped yet.
They said it was just 'a piece of goddamned paper' and now it is.
Festivito
(13,452 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)And the House won't ... means Republicans are trying to bring down the Post Office because it would otherwise do well.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,577 posts)want's to destroy the Postal Service so it can be privatized. Imagine the nightmares then.................
DainBramaged
(39,191 posts)OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)NEA, Postal Workers, AFSCME
earthside
(6,960 posts)We are destroying our postal system.
And we cannot put a woman or man into space aboard our own rockets anymore.
Frankly, the U.S. looks more and more like a country whose time has past.