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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 03:12 AM Sep 2016

North Korea makes rare public appeal for flood relief

Source: CNN

According to a report published Sunday by the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) -- North Korea's official state media -- the country's northeast has been affected by the "heaviest downpour" since 1945, with "tens of thousands" of buildings destroyed and people left homeless and "suffering from great hardship."

...

Citing North Korean government data, the report described how heavy rains resulting from Typhoon Lionrock had triggered flooding in areas such as Musan and Yonsa counties and Hoeryong City in North Hamgyong province. So far, 133 people have been killed, 395 people are missing and 140,000 people are in "urgent need of assistance."

...

Williams told CNN that the flood-ravaged areas were known for being particularly impoverished, with prison camps and forces considered hostile to the regime found there. Williams suggested that rather than care for the well-being of the people in the area, the WPK's concern was for the perpetuity of the regime, and that their only concern for the region would be if this could "feed into wider social discontent" that could provoke an uprising.

...

"Considering North Korea made this call in English, perhaps there is a distant hope that given the scale of the disaster, maybe the international community might respond," said Williams.

"But these hopes are undermined by their recent nuclear test -- it's hard to pinpoint the psychology behind it."

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/12/asia/north-korea-floods-admission/



Nuclear Superpower and worker's paradise North Korea, under the wise leadership of chairman Kim Yong Un, is hereby asking for international aid.
26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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North Korea makes rare public appeal for flood relief (Original Post) DetlefK Sep 2016 OP
wow, that's sorta unbelievable. Un needs to spend his billions to save his people. I hope they Divine Discontent Sep 2016 #1
There is no way they will revolt jberryhill Sep 2016 #2
That's what the Kim-family is trying, but it doesn't work. DetlefK Sep 2016 #5
Exactly. the sarcasm thing is clear evidence that the regime is looking for more excuses... Nitram Sep 2016 #7
Is that what you said when the US Congress passed a law against flag burning? jberryhill Sep 2016 #9
And when was that law passed, pray tell? Nitram Sep 2016 #10
1989 jberryhill Sep 2016 #11
"U.S. Flag Protection Amendment Readied By Biden - Just In Case" jberryhill Sep 2016 #13
Read the Pulitzer-prize winning "The Orphan Master's Son" by Adam Johnson. randome Sep 2016 #18
Yes, and one hears the same thing from people who have left religions jberryhill Sep 2016 #8
Berry, I don't think you inderstood my point. Nitram Sep 2016 #12
"I'm not sure why you seem so exercised over this issue" jberryhill Sep 2016 #14
"Absolutely, not only is it illegal to criticize the DPRK government in any way..." Nitram Sep 2016 #15
You are still missing the point jberryhill Sep 2016 #16
We would not be greeted as liberators and we'd be risking millionsof S. Korean lives... Nitram Sep 2016 #17
I would think the people of Dresden were pretty brutally treated jberryhill Sep 2016 #19
The people of Dresden were not bombed by their own government. Nitram Sep 2016 #20
That's all you get out of that? jberryhill Sep 2016 #21
If I weren't interested in having a conversation I wouldn't bother pointing out... Nitram Sep 2016 #22
Could you clarify your point, Nitram ? 'Cause I'm missing it. Where is the disagreement here? ColemanMaskell Sep 2016 #24
It's almost as if they have massively missallocated their resources MowCowWhoHow III Sep 2016 #3
Tee hee ColemanMaskell Sep 2016 #25
Dear Leader has plenty of money for his Fancy Toys jpak Sep 2016 #4
N. Korea taunts the world with another nuclear test and then pleads for help with flooding. Nitram Sep 2016 #6
Yep GummyBearz Sep 2016 #23
"Let's Make A Deal". nt. marybourg Sep 2016 #26

Divine Discontent

(21,056 posts)
1. wow, that's sorta unbelievable. Un needs to spend his billions to save his people. I hope they
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 03:40 AM
Sep 2016

revolt on him.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
2. There is no way they will revolt
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:21 AM
Sep 2016

It may be difficult to understand from the outside, but the successive leaders of North Korea are essentially gods.

You could say, "But why don't they realize their god is not treating them well." But when you think about it, that's pretty much the way it works with other gods too. Anything good is attributed to the god, and anything bad is rationalized away. For example, Jesus is believed to be alive and is believed to have the power to heal people. But a tremendous number of people who believe in Jesus suffer from agonizing disease, pray for healing, and it does not come. Do these believers "revolt" against Jesus? No. In fact they double down.

You can substitute Jesus for pretty much any other deity, or collection thereof, in which people have believed. The gods have the power to prevent, intervene, or mitigate disasters, but the disasters happen anyway, and it does not diminish people's faith in the gods.

The "sanction them until the people rise up and revolt" approach rests on assumptions that do not apply when relevant people do not have access to accurate information, and have not been so thoroughly indoctrinated that their belief in their government rises to the level of religious devotion.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
5. That's what the Kim-family is trying, but it doesn't work.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:02 AM
Sep 2016

The Kim-family has co-opted a korean myth to depict themselves as rulers by divine right, but I don't know how effective that is in a (nominally) communist system, because atheism is one of the basics of Communism.

I read an article by a north-korean defector: They know that their government is lying, but they don't know what the truthful version is.

And just a few days ago, North Korea outlawed making sarcastic statements about Kim Yong Un. That's not a sign that Kim Yong Un regards his rule as safe.



And North Korea is really close to a famine:
- Google "North Korea cannibalism".
- A month ago, NK-soldiers sneaked across the chinese border during night-time and killed and butchered somebody's donkey and got back into NK with the meat.
- This flood last month destroyed large swaths of agricultural land, right before harvest-time.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
7. Exactly. the sarcasm thing is clear evidence that the regime is looking for more excuses...
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:16 AM
Sep 2016

to arrest potential troublemakers who might organize armed rebellion. They keep the populace under control through sheer force and terror. They believe that Kim will torture their family and kill them, not that he is divine.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
10. And when was that law passed, pray tell?
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:42 AM
Sep 2016

Currently, flag burning is not illegal in the United States. The Supreme Court of the United States in its decision from 1969 has ruled that the burning of the flag is protected by the First Amendment.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
11. 1989
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:47 AM
Sep 2016

It was, in fact, precisely targeted at the 1969 decision you have in mind.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3407400132.html


In fact, it was the Biden- Roth-Cohen Flag Protection Act of 1989, sponsored by Joe Biden, which passed and was signed into law.

Biden's justification for this was, since you were apparently not paying attention at the time, that there was a push for a Constitutional Amendment which would nullify the 1969 Supreme Court decision. The primary sponsor of the bill went on to become Vice President of the United States.

The fact of the matter is that, in 1989, Congress passed and the president signed, a ban on flag burning, because it was a "hot topic" again at that time.

So, let's ask again, did you at that time conclude there was widespread discontent and flag burning going on the US?
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
13. "U.S. Flag Protection Amendment Readied By Biden - Just In Case"
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:51 AM
Sep 2016

Please read this article:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19900515&id=3llYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DPoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6832,2340967

"Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Joseph Biden says he'll have a flag-protection constitutional amendment ready if the Supreme Court strikes down a law Congress passed last year."

You actually are unaware that Joe Biden was prepared to amend the Constitution to get around that Supreme Court decision?
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
18. Read the Pulitzer-prize winning "The Orphan Master's Son" by Adam Johnson.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 04:14 PM
Sep 2016

It's truly gut-wrenching to see what these people are willing to put up with.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
8. Yes, and one hears the same thing from people who have left religions
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:33 AM
Sep 2016

These anecdotes do not support the suggestion that there is widespread discontent. There are ex-Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Mormons, and you-name-it, who will likewise report that there are people in those religions who are dissatisfied. The vast majority are not.

The US government passed this law in 1989:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/700

&quot 1) Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both."

When the US government made it illegal to burn the flag (albeit with an unenforceable law), did you conclude there was widespread discontent with the US government? Was that a sign that the Reagan administration "was not safe"?

Yes, they are really close to a famine. They have been through one before. Persons who were children during that time remain shorter than other North Koreans. They did not revolt then, and they will not revolt if the screws are turned tighter.

Quite obviously your "didn't work" observation is incorrect. It is, observably, working.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
12. Berry, I don't think you inderstood my point.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:49 AM
Sep 2016

The new N Korean law makes even statements in support of the regime potentially illegal, because virtually any statement can be construed as sarcasm or irony. I'm not sure why you seem so exercised over this issue and to comments that disagree with your point of view.

As you probably know, flag burning legislation in the US is ALWAYS merely an attempt by the right to make the left look unpatriotic. It is political Kabuki at it's stupidest, particularly as thee Supreme court has ruled that such laws are unconstitutional. On the other hand, when any statement you make about your own or another country is potentially illegal, there is nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide. Please give the blatantly false equivalence a rest.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
14. "I'm not sure why you seem so exercised over this issue"
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 10:17 AM
Sep 2016

I'm not particularly "exercised". I'm comfortably seated and having a discussion.

There is a widespread belief, given the absurdity of the DPRK regime, that North Koreans, broadly speaking, share our view of the absurdity of their regime.

This belief is based on nothing other than wishful thinking, and reports of defectors. There are "defectors" from everything, including large and stable institutions that have existed for hundreds of years, e.g. the Roman Catholic Church, Scientology, etc.. That fact does not mean their views are widely shared in the relevant population.

It is not a statement of "false equivalence". There is certainly no equivalence.

Apparently, you did not understand the meaning of my comment. So, perhaps I should recap:

1. You stated that the recent "irony ban" in the the DPRK was an indication that the regime is losing its grip. Or at least that is how I understood your comment.

2. I wondered why one could not conclude the same about the 1989 flag ban, about which you were apparently entirely ignorant, and say, "Obviously the US government is losing its grip".

Absolutely, not only is it illegal to criticize the DPRK government in any way, but this is enforced through a complex ranking system called Songbun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun). Your Songbun determines your access to employment, food, where you can live, and so on.

However, when you raise children, and successive generations of children, in a system like that, it turns out to be pretty effective in the main, in developing "true believers" against whom compulsion is not necessary to get them to perform.

Yes, there will always be malcontents, but this notion that we can "starve the North Koreans into rebelling" demonstrably does not work. The previous famine they went through was considerably worse than what they are experiencing with these floods.

Clearly, for example, the scientists, engineers and workers who have developed the DPRK missiles and nuclear weapons are home grown. They are highly intelligent, educated and skilled. They could, for example, not work that hard, but you can't really beat that kind of creativity out of someone - they have to be self-motivated. Just as Werner Von Braun was happy to do his thing whether for Nazis or for the US.

But I am surprised you are taking my comment as one of "false equivalence". I am simply pointing out that the belief that the people of North Korea are on the verge of rising up against the regime is supported by nothing other than wishful thinking. These people are quite thoroughly brainwashed from cradle to grave.

We can see that effect in the US from people who intentionally limit their exposure to sources of information, without any compulsion at all. Have a look at the persistent and sincere belief that, say, President Obama was not born in the US. Now, imagine if there was no other source of information available to the population at all. Certainly, it would be overwhelmingly believed, since it is quite obvious that it is substantially believed by people who DO have access to other information, but choose to limit whom they listen to.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
15. "Absolutely, not only is it illegal to criticize the DPRK government in any way..."
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 11:30 AM
Sep 2016

When ANY statement you make about your own or another country is potentially illegal (criticism or not), there is nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide. For example, under this law statements such as these could be construed to be sarcasm or irony and therefore illegal:

1. Kim Jong-Il is the greatest leader in the world.
2. Kim Jong-Il is wise.
3. The United States is a wicked country.
4. I love my country.

If you raise the temperature in the pressure cooker beyond what the pot will bear, it will explode.

As for your flag-burning analogy, one need only read the minority view on the public record to understand that there is a healthy level of discourse and certainly no absence of healthy opposition to the proposed legislation. That is certainly not the case in N Korea. Bans in flag-burning are political kabuki practiced on both sides of the aisle (I appreciate your bringing this fact to my attention), not a sign of serious civil unrest. As noted in the minority view for the :

- There is no epidemic of flag burnings crippling the country
- Outlawing flag desecration could increase rather than decrease such conduct
- They may be destroying a piece of cloth, but they do no damage to our system of freedom which tolerates such desecration.

Is it legal to express such a minority view in N Korea?

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-106srpt246/html/CRPT-106srpt246.htm

Furthermore, I will note that no such legislation has been allowed to stand, and no constitutional amendment has been passed. That is democracy, as opposed to a regime where if the great leader wants something, it is done.


 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
16. You are still missing the point
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 11:45 AM
Sep 2016

The DPRK crackdown on irony no more signals an imminent revolt in that country than any of the other bizarre shit their leaders do. Much of what you say has utterly nothing to do with the jumping off point in this thread - my comment to the effect that the North Korean people are simply not going to revolt, no matter how much they starve. They've demonstrably been in worse circumstances. The famine under Kim Jong Il was devastating.

This statement is factually incorrect:

"no such legislation has been allowed to stand"

It does indeed stand as 18 US Code Section 700:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/700

You are simply and factually wrong on that point.

Like I said, it is hard for people to wrap their heads around how thoroughly indoctrinated the North Koreans are.

The people of Germany - despite evident failure and misleadership - fought to the end, and the people of Japan were certainly willing to continue to fight if invaded.

This notion, that dislike of the North Korean regime is somehow widespread and/or common in the DPRK, can lead to tragic miscalculations. Do you think that if they were invaded they would "welcome us as liberators"?

"If you raise the temperature in the pressure cooker beyond what the pot will bear, it will explode."

And what measures do you suggest would be most effective in causing that to happen?


Nitram

(22,890 posts)
17. We would not be greeted as liberators and we'd be risking millionsof S. Korean lives...
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 04:05 PM
Sep 2016

...if we did. I can't imagine where you got that idea.

Neither the people of Germany nor those of Japan were as brutally treated as the N Korean people.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
19. I would think the people of Dresden were pretty brutally treated
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 06:35 PM
Sep 2016

I don't think you got the drift of my mention of Japan and Germany either.

Allied bombing of Germany did not inspire the Germans to rise up against Hitler, neither did US bombing of Japan inspire them to rise up against their leaders.

Any suffering which is endured by the North Korean people is not attributed to the actions of their leader, and the corresponding reaction of the outside world, but is attributed - and apparently effectively so - to the continued scheming of the nefarious United States and its allies.

With few exceptions, there is no indication that the people of the DPRK disbelieve what they are told. They have been raised from infancy to believe these things, and except for the few which take extreme risks to watch smuggled or ballooned-in videos on USB sticks and other things for which they can be killed for possessing (and the entire family's Songbun put at risk), there is no indication whatsoever that they question it.

We like to believe they "know" it's all a put-on, based on the usual one-week-lets-look-at-the-monuments-and-ask-our-minders-tricky-questions documentaries, but those visits are conducted in a bubble with the minders who are there to make sure there is no foreigner contact with unauthorized North Koreans. At some level, the minders themselves know they are putting the "best face" on things, but that's also true of, say, students who lead parents on tours of college campuses. When, as a grad student, I led such tours of the engineering department at my school, it's not as if I said, "And, oh by the way, a couple of the tenured faculty lost all interest in keeping up with technology or teaching undergraduates years ago."

Aside from which, even if the internal social conditions in DPRK proceeded toward some kind of tipping point, it is pretty clear that li'l Kim would certainly provoke international conflict in order to have a larger external boogeyman to blame. Crisis unites people like nothing else. After 9/11 did we, as a country, rebuke the W administration for being asleep at the switch (as the 9/11 Commission found)? Aw heck no. He grabbed a bullhorn and his approval rating went into the stratosphere.

The DPRK remains useful to China, but only up to a point. I haven't checked, but I'd be willing to bet that the economic relationship between China and Samsung alone has a greater value than that between China and the DPRK. Although it is pretty clear that as the TPP proceeds, li'l Kim seems to get crankier, and that may have something to do with China needing him as a foil. But there are limits to what China can do with him as well.

All I'm saying is that those folks who went up in flames with David Koresh weren't being forcibly held in that compound. Neither were most of the people in Jonestown. What precipitated the Jonestown mass suicide was a relatively small number of folks who wanted to get out, and Jones was afraid of the consequences if his little circus came apart. We don't call it "drinking the Kool Aid" for nothing. They were true believers, and there is no reason to assume that the overwhelming majority of North Koreans - who have less exposure to anything outside of the bubble than the residents of Jonestown did - are not likewise true believers to the end. Even when they could see that people were dropping dead, and it was no drill, more of them lined up to get their drink than ran off into the jungle.

Look at what you can get people to do on, with very few exceptions, a completely voluntary basis:



They were not crazy people. They were not secretly believing it was all a big scam. They were acting on their own beliefs which had been manipulated with less control over outside influences than the people of the DPRK.

Enjoy the music. Watch the video background:

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
20. The people of Dresden were not bombed by their own government.
Wed Sep 14, 2016, 08:19 AM
Sep 2016

And if they had been, you're still insisting they'd continue to support the Nazi regime?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
21. That's all you get out of that?
Wed Sep 14, 2016, 09:17 AM
Sep 2016

Are you interested in having a conversation or not?

The theory asserted where I came into this thread is that by applying pressure from the outside, then the people of North Korea will rise up and revolt against their government.

The thinking seems to be that if the rest of the world tightens the screws more (and if China actually gets serious about enforcing the sanctions), then conditions in the DPRK will worsen to the point that a revolution will spontaneously occur.

You can continue to believe in whatever wishful thinking suits you in that regard. However, when you have a population with enough "true believers", then it does not matter whether the government engages in mass murder internally (which Germany did), or whether forceful persuasion is attempted externally (the "terror bombing" strategy against Germany intended to break their will to fight).

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
22. If I weren't interested in having a conversation I wouldn't bother pointing out...
Wed Sep 14, 2016, 10:52 AM
Sep 2016

where I believe your reasoning falls flat.

You did not respond to a theory that outside pressure would have any effect on N Korea - you came into the thread responding to Divine's comment that letting his people perish in floods rather than diverting money from Kim's nuclear weapon project could eventually lead to a revolt. You seem to have been fighting against a straw man that was never brought up except by you - namely, that outside sanctions will bring down the N. Korean regime.

Clearly you have your own agenda, and that apparently prevents you from actually engaging in conversation - which means responding to the points that other people have actually made rather than arguing against points that no one made.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
24. Could you clarify your point, Nitram ? 'Cause I'm missing it. Where is the disagreement here?
Wed Sep 14, 2016, 05:25 PM
Sep 2016

I was able to follow all the long stuff about Jonestown and true believers and the inefficacy of threats against beliefs. The only point of disagreement I'm seeing here is as to whether North Koreans are in fact True Believers or just pretending to be. Is that the point of the "conversation" ?

To me, just using the simplest-answer Occam's Razor approach, the balance of probability seems to be that most of them are True Believers with a minority who have no real opinion but just play along, and an even smaller minority who are actively awake to the deception. I don't think the Jonestown analogy is quite comparable, because the Jonestown participants chose to be there, rather than being born into it. The 1940s Germany analogy is fair enough, though. Probably most people really did support their then government, a minority just played along, and a small minority resisted. But sanctions, if you want to liken the bombing of Dresden to sanctions, probably did not change anyone's attitude toward their government. If anyone was predisposed to try to escape, it might have hastened their attempts to escape; the majority, fully committed to their homeland as they saw it, would remain committed or perhaps double down and become even stauncher.

Think about it -- if opponents bombed an American city, would that cause the majority of patriotic Americans to abandon their belief in America? Or would it cause them to pass Patriot Acts and War on Terror bills and in general dig in their heels and support the then current system even more fiercely? I don't see any reason to think Germans would have reacted to the bombing of Dresden any differently than Americans reacted to the Twin Towers thing. So if bombing a city is like a superlative form of sanction, then I don't see any reason to think sanctions would turn the North Koreans against their current system.

But that's just my opinion. I was trying to follow the discussion, but it seemed to be kind of drifting, and I'm not sure I understand -- in fact I'm sure I don't understand -- what Nitram's point is. Though I would like to. Perhaps you could, you know, clarify that part of the conversation? Just, you know, main point(s)? Thanks.

jpak

(41,759 posts)
4. Dear Leader has plenty of money for his Fancy Toys
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 08:50 AM
Sep 2016

but not one cent for the victims of this disaster.

yup

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
6. N. Korea taunts the world with another nuclear test and then pleads for help with flooding.
Tue Sep 13, 2016, 09:13 AM
Sep 2016

Acting like a spoiled child.

 

GummyBearz

(2,931 posts)
23. Yep
Wed Sep 14, 2016, 11:56 AM
Sep 2016

I spilled my milk once. It wasn't exactly a flood but I knew my mom wasn't gonna be cleaning it up for me after

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