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Judi Lynn

(160,630 posts)
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 05:45 PM Aug 2016

Christian Woman Sues To Wear Headscarf In Alabama Driver's License Photo

Source: International Business Times

Christian Woman Sues To Wear Headscarf In Alabama Driver's License Photo

By Alexandra Suarez On 08/30/16 AT 4:39 PM

A new case in which a woman was asked to remove her headscarf in public has once again called the boundaries of religious accommodation into question.

The American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Alabama filed a lawsuit Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Alabama n behalf of a Christian woman from Tuskegee whop was forced to remove her headscarf to take a photo for her driver license.

Yvonne Allen, who wears a headscarf not because she is a practicing Muslim but because she believes her Christian faith requires her to keep her hair covered in public, was forced to remove her headscarf by Lee County officials when she went to have her driver license renewed.

When Allen visited the Lee County office to renew her expired license, the staff fought Allen on the subject, arguing that only Muslim women could wear a headscarf, a press release from the ACLU stated.



Read more: http://www.ibtimes.com/christian-woman-sues-wear-headscarf-alabama-drivers-license-photo-2409485

60 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Christian Woman Sues To Wear Headscarf In Alabama Driver's License Photo (Original Post) Judi Lynn Aug 2016 OP
Awesome!!! JoePhilly Aug 2016 #1
Recovering Catholic liberalgunwilltravel Aug 2016 #36
But more often than not the head covering was just a token. dflprincess Aug 2016 #40
Mass =/= DMV maxsolomon Aug 2016 #44
I grew up Episcopalian in the same time frame, and we also had doilies if needed - moonscape Aug 2016 #46
Me, too. nt tblue37 Sep 2016 #58
I'll be surprised if a judge sides with her Auggie Aug 2016 #2
For some christians it very much is. Also wigs are worn by married orthodox jewish women. CBGLuthier Aug 2016 #5
A Jewish woman I went to grad school with always covered her hair after tblue37 Sep 2016 #60
Hm, a Christian custom of a woman covering her head...is there any such Christian religion.... Moonwalk Aug 2016 #6
Apples and oranges Auggie Aug 2016 #35
Why? The women are Christian, and they cover their heads, and there is no question.... Moonwalk Aug 2016 #38
Some Christian women, such as Mennonites, cover their heads for religious reasons. Shrike47 Aug 2016 #8
Take note at nuns wearing habits BumRushDaShow Aug 2016 #10
As a Mennonite, I wore the required "head covering" for years irishlassie Aug 2016 #24
Agree! BumRushDaShow Aug 2016 #26
Of course it is. JackRiddler Aug 2016 #11
And it doesn't really matter, does it? randome Aug 2016 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #19
Yes it is, among a variety of Christian denominations jberryhill Aug 2016 #28
Recovering Catholic liberalgunwilltravel Aug 2016 #37
It is. LeftyMom Aug 2016 #45
It's not up to a judge to rule on how one practices their religion. Down that road lies madness. n/t X_Digger Aug 2016 #50
A judge interprets the law Auggie Sep 2016 #51
Yes, dear. Now read what I said, again. n/t X_Digger Sep 2016 #52
Tell that to Kim Davis Auggie Sep 2016 #54
If that's what you thought a judge did, you missed the point. Try, try again. n/t X_Digger Sep 2016 #55
I hadn't thought earlier about the Mennonites/Amish... 63splitwindow Aug 2016 #3
This makes no sense. Only Muslim women can wear headscarves? Moonwalk Aug 2016 #4
I am pedantic (and compulsive) .... Hindu men do not wear turbans etherealtruth Aug 2016 #7
Very sorry. Will correct my post! Moonwalk Aug 2016 #15
If you're wondering about Christian religions where women cover their heads.... Moonwalk Aug 2016 #9
Simple solution just setup photo booths with a curtain for privacy where the people can step into cstanleytech Aug 2016 #12
Unless they consider showing license to police or others for ID as "in public." 63splitwindow Aug 2016 #13
It's not about public vs. private photo taking.... Moonwalk Aug 2016 #17
She wouldnt be in public though she and everyone for that matter would be a simple booth cstanleytech Aug 2016 #21
public vs private picture taking isn't the point arithia Aug 2016 #33
Where they take the photo isn't the issue. Xithras Aug 2016 #18
i'm not sure it makes sense for the government to question if someone really believes this or not unblock Aug 2016 #14
She will win her case. This really shouldn't be that much of an issue. NWCorona Aug 2016 #20
Maybe. cstanleytech Aug 2016 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author kestrel91316 Aug 2016 #23
Pastafarian wins the religious right to wear spaghetti colander Major Nikon Aug 2016 #25
LMAO William Seger Aug 2016 #39
Love this. Perspective is everything. Thanks for posting! JudyM Aug 2016 #47
Good use of the 'ol noodle. roamer65 Sep 2016 #56
She'll win this one Warpy Aug 2016 #27
My license photo looks like Jerry Garcia and Willy Nelson had a baby jberryhill Aug 2016 #34
Here's a picture of a Christian woman wearing a headscarf. mwooldri Aug 2016 #29
My stepson madokie Aug 2016 #30
Fuck that. All religious privileges end when you enter Warren Stupidity Aug 2016 #31
The public sphere includes parks, libraries, beaches, etc. True Dough Aug 2016 #41
No I am not saying "that", although certainly there are Warren Stupidity Aug 2016 #49
Does this mean that,,,, Cryptoad Aug 2016 #32
My Christian beliefs say I need to wear a baseball cap in my picture Taitertots Aug 2016 #42
Hutterite women with head scarves..... yellowcanine Aug 2016 #43
But the ACLU stands for Anti-Christian Liberal Union dbackjon Aug 2016 #48
Just let everyone where hats if they want Bradical79 Sep 2016 #53
Question: why does she need a Drivers License? brooklynite Sep 2016 #57
If it's acceptable for some, it should be acceptable for all. Quantess Sep 2016 #59
36. Recovering Catholic
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 09:48 PM
Aug 2016

I grew up in the 50's and 60's. It was "required", pre-Vatican II for women to wear veils or other head coverings to attend Mass then. Many parishes had disposable doilies available at the entrance of the church for women who had forgotten their head covering. Odd, that the same southern states would have the same prejudices against Muslims as as they once did against Catholics. Or, maybe not.

dflprincess

(28,082 posts)
40. But more often than not the head covering was just a token.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 11:20 PM
Aug 2016

Especially in the early 60s when every woman at Mass (my mom included) wore a pillbox hat just like Jackie (Mom even got me one) and a pillbox really didn't cover much of your head or hair.

moonscape

(4,673 posts)
46. I grew up Episcopalian in the same time frame, and we also had doilies if needed -
Wed Aug 31, 2016, 01:46 PM
Aug 2016

could not go into church without head covered.

Auggie

(31,191 posts)
2. I'll be surprised if a judge sides with her
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 05:56 PM
Aug 2016

it's not exactly Christian custom to cover one's head, is it?

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
5. For some christians it very much is. Also wigs are worn by married orthodox jewish women.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:03 PM
Aug 2016

That is the problem with secular law making exceptions for religious customs. Accept one then you got to accept all. Best to accept none and nip that shit in the bud.

tblue37

(65,488 posts)
60. A Jewish woman I went to grad school with always covered her hair after
Thu Sep 1, 2016, 11:47 PM
Sep 2016

she married. She and her husband were not from particularly religious families, though they took their Jewish culture seriously, and their wedding followed traditional Jewish norms.

However, about a year after they got married they chose to become far more observant and traditional, quite strict about following Kosher dietary laws and certain other observances, though still not what you would call "orthodox." From that point on, Linda always wore a scarf over her hair in public or when they had guests at home, like this:



That image is from an Etsy page that sells traditional head scarves for Jewish women, BTW, and the reason such a business exists is that there are a number of traditionally observant Jewish women who do cover their hair for religious reasons, even in the US.

As Linda explained it to me, she and her husband, and others who followed the tradition, recognized thast her hair could be "alluring" to other men. (If you had seen her remarkably glorious mane, you would probably agree on that point.)

Of course, 1 Corinthians 11:15 refers to a woman's hair as her "glory," and most Christian women used to cover their hair too. In more modern times, members of certain sects (like the various Old German Baptists--e.g., Dunkards, Mennonites, Amish) still do:





During the imperial period in Rome, women generally covered their heads in public:



As did women in Medieval and Renaissance Europe:














Of course, even in the 19th and much of the 20th century, both women AND men wore some sort of head covering out in public. Even now, among some classes (especially the British upper classes), headwear is still an essential part of a "proper" outfit for women, often with hilarious results:

















Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
6. Hm, a Christian custom of a woman covering her head...is there any such Christian religion....
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:06 PM
Aug 2016

This one perhaps?

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
38. Why? The women are Christian, and they cover their heads, and there is no question....
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 11:09 PM
Aug 2016

...that they are doing so for religious reasons.

But if you want something less monastic, simply type in "Christian head covering movement." You'll get all kinds of pictures, websites and videos both on why a Christian woman should do it, and giving women tutorials on ways to do it. It seems that it's quite the new movement. " target="_blank">One of these starts out with a very young woman saying: "Hey, head-covering-Christian-women...."

I very much doubt that this can be thrown out as an isolated person from a fringe sect. Besides which, all these sites and videos and such point to 1 Corintheans from the Bible. It was historically what Christian women did, and what they often still do in church (wear hats or veils). So, it's not like this is anything new. It seems that women doing this are just reviving a very old Christian tradition and following the bible in the say way Christians did not too long ago—and still do in other cultures.

Shrike47

(6,913 posts)
8. Some Christian women, such as Mennonites, cover their heads for religious reasons.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:09 PM
Aug 2016

Sikhs also cover their heads.

A law that allows only practioners of one religion to cover their hair in photographs would be unconstitutional. She would win in court.

BumRushDaShow

(129,491 posts)
10. Take note at nuns wearing habits
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:12 PM
Aug 2016

that includes some form of head covering. It was/is a custom and in many Catholic (and related Lutheran/Episcopal) churches, you better not go into a church without "something on your head" (it generally morphed into some sort of scarf or veil). The Amish and Mennonites wear (very recognizable) head-coverings as part of their Christian beliefs.



In a related instance - observant/orthodox Jews where yarmulkes in the synagogue (and/or in public).

Those 3 religions (including Islam) came out of the same root origin of Judaism and carried over many of the Judaic customs over the millennia.

irishlassie

(2 posts)
24. As a Mennonite, I wore the required "head covering" for years
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:56 PM
Aug 2016

Many of my extended family members and acquaintances still do.

Another thought: I have had friends going through chemotherapy who wore a head scarf because of complete hair loss. It should be the face that is photographed; what is happening on the head should not be the focus. If they want to validate hair color, I have two words: hair color.

BumRushDaShow

(129,491 posts)
26. Agree!
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:09 PM
Aug 2016


The fact that there are so many variables that can happen with an individual for photos - glasses or no glasses, beard or mustache or neither, short hair or long hair and every hair that could be every color of the rainbow. If anything, they use the face for general biometrics and not the hair.

I remember growing up when they used to have "family" passports (with the whole family in the one picture that was affixed to the passport) and when we got the photo taken, we were told it had to be in black and white and we were not allowed to smile. The times they are a-changing!
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
16. And it doesn't really matter, does it?
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:29 PM
Aug 2016

A driver's license is for identification purposes. It's not a free portrait.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Response to Auggie (Reply #2)

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
28. Yes it is, among a variety of Christian denominations
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:36 PM
Aug 2016

Mennonites and Amish in my area.

Older Italian Carholic women in some areas.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
50. It's not up to a judge to rule on how one practices their religion. Down that road lies madness. n/t
Wed Aug 31, 2016, 11:14 PM
Aug 2016

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
4. This makes no sense. Only Muslim women can wear headscarves?
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:03 PM
Aug 2016

I can't make sense of this law. Either the Alabama DMV want to have a look at the person hair (full head with or without hair) and religion doesn't matter, (i.e. everyone's i.d. has to show the top of their head as well as their face), or what's above the forehead doesn't matter so much (re: Muslim women have on headscarf, Sikh men a turban, Catholic nuns a habit). As the law clearly states that the later is the case (Muslim women can wear headscarf = face is all that matters for i.d.), why can't other women of other religions wear a headscarf?

What is the purpose of this law?

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
7. I am pedantic (and compulsive) .... Hindu men do not wear turbans
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:07 PM
Aug 2016

Sikh's wear turbans

(sorry, i could not control myself from making that correction)

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
9. If you're wondering about Christian religions where women cover their heads....
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:09 PM
Aug 2016

Check out this little quiz here: http://www.judaism-islam.com/quiz-can-you-tell-her-religion-from-her-head-covering/

Though not many Christian faiths in the U.S. do, a lot around the world do.

cstanleytech

(26,319 posts)
12. Simple solution just setup photo booths with a curtain for privacy where the people can step into
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:16 PM
Aug 2016

to have their picture taken for their license.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
17. It's not about public vs. private photo taking....
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:30 PM
Aug 2016

...So if a woman's religion says she can't show off her hair either in public or to men (or maybe not even to other women) then having a photo of her without her scarf that she must show to any person asking for i.d. *still* violates her religion.

cstanleytech

(26,319 posts)
21. She wouldnt be in public though she and everyone for that matter would be a simple booth
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:46 PM
Aug 2016

with a curtain that provides more than adequate privacy and the only time someone would every see the photo would be if they needed to see her ID for some odd reason like she tries to cash a check or gets pulled over for speeding.

arithia

(455 posts)
33. public vs private picture taking isn't the point
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 08:15 PM
Aug 2016

Most of my family is Amish, Quaker and Mennonite. All three of those denominations wear caps. It is an expression of modesty, humility and community. (It's also helps contain the hair, which Plain women do not cut.)

My female relatives who observe the practice of donning the cap once explained it to me this way- removing their head covering is akin to taking their shirt and bra off. It's an exposure they feel is deeply intimate and personal. To remove your cap is to show vanity and pride... and in a culture built around conformity and modesty, standing out as an individual comes with heavy social consequences.

IDs are also used for more than traffic stops and cashing checks. Imagine being asked to turn over your ID for new hire paperwork, but for the picture you were forced to disrobe. Now imagine the place you are applying for work is run by another member of your community- something that happens frequently among tight-knit religious groups. It would be a major source of embarrassment over something that should be non-invasive and routine.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
18. Where they take the photo isn't the issue.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:33 PM
Aug 2016

The religious basis of the objection is a prohibition on anyone viewing their uncovered heads. This applies to them in pictures as much as it applies in person. The resulting license would be unusable, because they would be unable to show it to anyone who asked to verify their ID. It effectively forces them to choose between living a life without ID or violating their religious beliefs on a regular basis.

unblock

(52,328 posts)
14. i'm not sure it makes sense for the government to question if someone really believes this or not
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:19 PM
Aug 2016

if it's ok for muslims to cover their hair, i don't think the government should question anyone who wants to cover their hair.

in 1943, the supreme court didn't merely decide that jehovah's witnesses didn't need to say the pledge of allegiance, they decided that *no one* could be compelled to say the pledge of allegiance.


if i'm not mistaken, there is some case law that talks about "sincerely held beliefs", but i think the government is on dangerous ground when it gets in the business of trying to determine who sincerely holds what beliefs and who doesn't.

NWCorona

(8,541 posts)
20. She will win her case. This really shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 06:36 PM
Aug 2016

It's not like it's a burka or something.

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Warpy

(111,352 posts)
27. She'll win this one
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:20 PM
Aug 2016

considering the number of sects that require women to wear some sort of head gear.

Offhand I'd say that as long as it doesn't obscure a woman's vision and it's part of her daily dress, it belongs in the photo since that's how she'd going to look when that photo is used to ID her.

Considering what I see done to hair these days, the headscarf seems to be a very small deal. I have friends with all sorts of crayon colored hair and they change colors and styles frequently. Hair is no longer reliable as part of an ID process.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
34. My license photo looks like Jerry Garcia and Willy Nelson had a baby
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 08:16 PM
Aug 2016

I've cut it short and shaved the beard since the last time I got a passport and driver's license. I get weird looks from TSA and border folks.

mwooldri

(10,303 posts)
29. Here's a picture of a Christian woman wearing a headscarf.
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:40 PM
Aug 2016

However I don't think she'll be turning up at any drivers' license office any time soon...


madokie

(51,076 posts)
30. My stepson
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:43 PM
Aug 2016

prematurely bald by the age of 25, When he went to renew his license a couple years ago the ltag agent told him to take off his hat. His argument is he wears his hat all the time and that if she makes him remove his hat to take a picture a cop probably won't recognize him. After much back and forth she finally said ok leave your hat on. His drivers license has his picture with his hat on, right now and has for several years now.
This is Oklahoma. It seems as if the decision was left to the tag agent because she finally relented. He's been stopped a couple times and both times the cops had no problem with his having his picture taken with his hat on. I'm his step dad and I'm not sure I'd recognize him right off without his hat on.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
31. Fuck that. All religious privileges end when you enter
Tue Aug 30, 2016, 07:59 PM
Aug 2016

the public sphere. You want a drivers license? Get your picture taken with nothing on your head as per th rules and regulations

True Dough

(17,327 posts)
41. The public sphere includes parks, libraries, beaches, etc.
Wed Aug 31, 2016, 01:46 AM
Aug 2016

Are you saying people practicing religion have no right to cover their heads in those places either? Let's not forget the First Amendment and freedom on religion.

I think religion is poppycock, but that doesn't mean reasonable accommodation goes out the window just because some of us disapprove. It's acceptable for citizens to cover their head for driver licence photos, so long as their face is exposed.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
49. No I am not saying "that", although certainly there are
Wed Aug 31, 2016, 07:26 PM
Aug 2016

dress codes for parks too, and your religion doesn't get you a free pass to break those either.

The license photo regulations are clear, common sense, and do not discriminate.

Fuck religious privilege. It is a right wing back door effort to institutionalize racism and homophobia and to destroy secular society and institutions.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
42. My Christian beliefs say I need to wear a baseball cap in my picture
Wed Aug 31, 2016, 07:30 AM
Aug 2016

This will fall on deaf ears because freedom of religion is really freedom to pick one of the existing dominant religions.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
53. Just let everyone where hats if they want
Thu Sep 1, 2016, 12:42 AM
Sep 2016

It's the face that matters, right? Seems like a waste of time making special exceptions for every single religion.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
59. If it's acceptable for some, it should be acceptable for all.
Thu Sep 1, 2016, 11:13 PM
Sep 2016

I'm not religious at all, but I demand the right to cover my hair when having my photo taken at the DMV, or wherever!
Let's ALL cover our hair at the DMV.

What, only Muslims get special rights?

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