Killing TPP would hand China 'keys to the castle': U.S. trade representative

[uawchild]

Source: Reuters

Failure to ratify the U.S.-led sweeping trade pact TPP would hand China "the keys to the castle" on globalization and do nothing to solve the real problems underlying American anxiety over jobs, the top U.S. trade official said Thursday.

The tariff-slashing Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) has turned into a hot-button topic in the run-up to the Nov. 8 U.S. election, threatening to dampen support from lawmakers needed to pass a deal critics condemn as a job-killer.

U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman said he was still optimistic Congress would pass the 12-member TPP, in part because China has been moving ahead with a trade deal of its own, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), that would boost its exports and let it set labor and environmental standards in the fast-growing Asia Pacific region.

"We're one vote away from either cementing our leadership in this region and in the global trading system or ceding it to China," Froman told reporters in Lima after attending the inauguration of Peruvian President Pedro Pablo Kuczynski.

"At the end of the day I don't think Congress wants to be responsible for handing the keys to the castle to China."

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-idUSKCN1090QZ

[MattP]

1. To much lobbyist bullshit in it

We might need A trade deal but not this trade deal

[yallerdawg]

4. This is the final, signed agreement.

Froman ruled out renegotiating the "carefully balanced" text, but said issues were being solved by working on country implementation plans. He cited pork producers, dairy farmers and financial services as once-reluctant stakeholders that now back the TPP.

"The last major issue outstanding has to do with biologics and intellectual property rights," Froman said. "We're having good constructive conversations" with members of Congress.

[Sunlei]

38. Heres a link to the entire TPP. can note all the way on the bottom how they work out the finals.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/TPP-Full-Text

[George II]

45. Specifics?

[TheBlackAdder]

64. TPP will give the Pacific Rim to China, just like how NAFTA gave Central & South America to them!

.


The difference between US business and China is that China acts as a collective state.

When they move into a country, they don't hire locals for their factories, they bring in labor from the mainland.


NAFTA, while nicely premised with good intentions, has caused 7 Central & South American countries to become chief trading partners with China and 6 more nations are about to shift the bulk of their import-exports from the US to China within the next 5-7 years.


China acts as a mercantile nation. They are not bound by the job, financial, and social constructs of NAFTA.
They move into a country and say, deal with us and we won't hold you to the same standards that NAFTA nations do.
They then pay people lesser wages and make 10-20 year or more contracts for guaranteed raw materials that China needs to produce its goods for the world. This completely undercuts NAFTA's goals. Then, China sells those finished goods to the same countries below the costs locals or other imports can provide them. This puts locals out of work. Since they have less money, they become even more dependent on Chinese goods.

(This is the same shit that Wal*Mart does. They move into an area, sell their goods lower than other Wal*Mart stores to undercut and drive local businesses out of competition, which causes people to lose jobs. Wal*Mart benefits from low wages, that force people onto government programs--something local businesses cannot do. As people lose their jobs, they have less buying power and rely more and more on Wal*Mart's goods, feeding this vicious cycle.)


This is why China does not sign onto TPP... because they will undercut TPP and walk away with the keys to the kingdom.


.

[RDANGELO]

2. We can check the influence of China in that region without throwing our middle class under the bus.

We can give them aid to make them self sufficient instead of jobs that may not be there in the future anyway.

[Recursion]

22. The jobs are going with or without the TPP

It's a question of whether we have some influence over the process or not. The board seems to prefer "not", for reasons that make little sense to me.

[FighttheFuture]

33. But the jobs do not have to go... remember that thing called Tarriffs? Worker protections, etc.?

Really, it's silly to think the jobs are going to go. That's if nothing is done to stop the offshoring, or H1B Visa scam, deconstructing whole factories, etc. This TPP isn't addressing that, if anything it will accelerate it while we are strip mined with no local control.

[Recursion]

36. Yes, they do. Tariffs don't keep jobs here, they just make stuff more expensive

Companies don't pay tariffs, consumers do. Factories were moving to Mexico as quickly before NAFTA as they were after it (actually NAFTA slowed it down slightly).

[FighttheFuture]

56. No, tariffs do keep jobs here. If it more expensive to import an item manufactured outside

the company, then the cost benefit of moving the factory out of the country become prohibitive.

[Recursion]

62. No it doesn't. Because the consumer pays the tariff

Seriously, read Krugman on this

[Matt_R]

67. tariffs work like this.

You could buy a 1980s Toyota Pickup for $22K or the equivalent Ford Pickup for $16K. Math works out, you buy the Ford. Only the Ford was made in Mexico under NAFTA and the Toyota was Imported from Japan with a 25% tariff.

Fast forward 2000s and the Toyota Pickup for $26K made in America, and the equivalent Ford Pickup for $26K still made in Mexico, thanks to NAFTA.

This is why TPP is bad. Toyota started building manufacturing plants in America, granted in non union states, but in America. If the TPP had been around back then it would have made the $22K Toyota made in Japan cost $16.5K, still more than the Ford but it would not have the 25% tariff tax. And Toyota would not have built manufacturing plants in America.

So I know not a perfect analogy but it happened under NAFTA, would the same not happen under TPP?

[FighttheFuture]

73. Wrong! Tarrifs to keep jobs local and I think you should read Krugman.

It's irrelevant if the consumer pays the tarrif, it also means better paying jobs are preserved. It's about equalizing prices of items from offshore that you could not compete at slavewages or whatever lower standard is at the point of manufacture. You seem to ignore the 800 lb Gorilla in that this world is still made up of countries, all with the own varying standard of living, and if you want to keep your society stable, you do not go with massive injections of products from labor of such a cost differential that the current structure could not ever hope to adapt to, it can only die. This is clear from the hollowing out and collapse of the american Middle class over the last 30+ years.

As for Krugman, what are you reading? He's basically called this "free-trade" crap a scam perpetrated by the elites. From March, 2016:

But it’s also true that much of the elite defense of globalization is basically dishonest: false claims of inevitability, scare tactics (protectionism causes depressions!), vastly exaggerated claims for the benefits of trade liberalization and the costs of protection, hand-waving away the large distributional effects that are what standard models actually predict. I hope, by the way, that I haven’t done any of that; I think I’ve always been clear that the gains from globalization aren’t all that (here’s a back-of-the-envelope on the gains from hyperglobalization — only part of which can be attributed to policy — that is less than 5 percent of world GDP over a generation); and I think I’ve never assumed away the income distribution effects.

Furthermore, as Mark Kleiman sagely observes, the conventional case for trade liberalization relies on the assertion that the government could redistribute income to ensure that everyone wins — but we now have an ideology utterly opposed to such redistribution in full control of one party, and with blocking power against anything but a minor move in that direction by the other.

So the elite case for ever-freer trade is largely a scam, which voters probably sense even if they don’t know exactly what form it’s taking.

[iandhr]

53. If you think tariffs are a sure way to protect jobs...

... google Smoot-Holly.

[FighttheFuture]

57. I am not saying it is a "sure-way", I am saying it was one of the tools we lost when

we allowed capital to move freely without any consideration to local labor and industry all in the name of "free Trade"; a term fit for fooling people if there ever was one.

As for googeling, how about trying "problem with free trade", or "NAFTA problems", or "TPP problems" ...

[iandhr]

61. I am not saying I support the trade deal.

I was just saying that history has taught that protectionist tariffs can have negative consequences.


It is a complex subject matter and needs more than a 10 second sound bite.

[FighttheFuture]

72. I agree, but that's all we have to work with in the current environment. TPP is a wet-dream

for corporations and Capital. It it better to NOT have it than to have it. What results from rejecting it can then be hashed out in a much more open process that takes into account other voices besides corporate lobbyists negotiating in secret for maximum profit regarless of the local damage it causes.

[iandhr]

74. I agree.

I am glad you see the nuance. Some can't.

[msongs]

3. disagreement is not about trade, it is about selling our souls to international corporations nt

[dvduval]

5. Interesting Premise

I wish the discussion would focus more on what policies would be best for America's middle class. Obviously, you can be an armchair evangelist for all that is wrong with the TPP, but that does notion to move forward the discussion of policies that would benefit us, and we need to be having that discussion.

[Angry Dragon]

6. Fair trade is better than free trade

[Iggo]

18. But it solves the problems underlying the anxiety.

That's all you need to know.

[katsy]

7. Oh bullshit.

Want a trade agreement... Fine take the 5 or so chapters on trade in the tpp & sell that to us.

The rest is corporate welfare. If corporations want to do business in foreign countries fine but let them take all business related risks. Or not! But it's not incumbent on consumers to support these corporate swindlers.

And if my state has a ban on fracking & we get sued by some conglomerate because they couldnt turn a profit because of our laws... Tough shit go find somewhere else to plunder and pay all legal costs assiciated with your stupid lawsuits.

Fuck this noise.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/05/26/stop-calling-tpp-trade-agreement-it-isnt

[pangaia]

14. +1000 or more.

[FighttheFuture]

32. Hear! Hear! +1000!!!

[whathehell]

34. Thank you! There is no "right" to profit that the public must insure.

[appal_jack]

51. well-said, katsy! k&r, nt

[FairWinds]

8. Reuters "catapults the propaganda"

It is a lie that the TPP is "tariff-slashing."

But at least Froman is honest that the deal is mostly about
a face-off with China - a "Pivot to Asia" that includes a huge
US military build-up . .

Check out the new base on Jeju Island (Korea) which is fiercely
opposed by the locals.

Your tax dollars at work.

[yallerdawg]

44. A "lie" TPP slashes tariffs? Remember - we can read it now?

TPP ELIMINATES OVER 18,000 TAXES ON MADE-IN-AMERICA EXPORTS

• In TPP countries, these taxes—known as tariffs—increase prices for
American exports. For example, they raise prices by up to 59 percent for
U.S. autos and up to 40 percent for U.S. poultry. This puts our workers and
businesses at a global competitive disadvantage.

• Eliminating these taxes on the cars, crops, and consumer goods that our
workers produce will support American jobs and create new opportunities to
sell to the world’s fastest-growing markets.

• Our domestic market is already open to the world. TPP tears down barriers to
other markets so that we can compete.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/TPP-Economic-Benefits-Fact-Sheet.pdf

[FairWinds]

68. Hey Yeller -

So you choose to believe that same people that lied out
their asses about CAFTA, WTO, NAFTA and much more?

I would urge you to avoid used car lots.

[yallerdawg]

69. "Choose to believe."

When you can read the agreement in full, word for word, still not good enough?

This is an actual, real thing - a legally binding document. More people and groups are signing off on it now.

This is not a matter of faith - this is a matter of fact.

[FairWinds]

71. Correct, it is an "actual" bad thing . .

please see post # 70 below.

And I don't think you have the slightest notion of what
is in that agreement.

How many chapters are there? How many deal with
traditional trade issues?

[GeorgeGist]

9. F E A R

sounds like a Republican tactic.

[KG]

10. i lulz'd.

[Urchin]

11. Change the locks.

Change the locks.

[asiliveandbreathe]

12. Why can't we get an honest open debate..all

parties involved in discussion - that includes the American people.

Seems to me - from what I have been able to decipher - (truly, it shouldn't be this difficult to research, but it is) - if I don't make a profit, from what I have been able to glean, then I can sue to recover - right?

So, I can just prove I didn't make a profit, becz x, y, z - and recover revenue..okay - sounds like this could drive the wrong behavior..especially if I have friendly (wink, wink) legaleez..

Just sue, that's it...wouldn't cost me a dime - isn't that the trump way????

[pangaia]

16. "Why can't we get an honest open debate..?"

Need you ask? :&gt


"..sounds like this could drive the wrong behavior..."

It wouldn't just DRIVE the wrong behavior, it would ALLOW they behavior mega corporations want.

[Sunlei]

42. our democracy ends once we elect people to do the debate. Advisory committees made reports.

100s of pages of reports are in the TPP agreements here's a link to the official TPP pages of Advisory reports.

All reports start with a letter like this report for "Small and Minority businesses" followed by several pages of extremely dry reading.

December 1, 2015
The Honorable Michael Froman United States Trade Representative 600 17th Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20508
Dear Ambassador Froman:
In accordance with section 5(b)(4) of the Bipartisan Trade Priorities and Accountability Act of 2015, and section 135(e) of the Trade Act of 1974, as amended, I am pleased to transmit the report of the Industry Trade Advisory Committee on Small and Minority Business (ITAC 11) on the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) reflecting consensus majority and additional advisory opinions on the negotiated Agreement.
Sincerely,

Karyn Page Chair Industry Trade Advisory Committee on Small and Minority Business (ITAC 11)

LINK TO TPP page for Advisory committee reports. https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/advisory-group-reports-TPP

[Sgent]

60. You have to show

that the country violated the trade agreement first.

[REALforever]

13. Yes, this is something that the DIEHARDS aren't looking at, but President Obama is

This myth that EVERY trade agreement is bad regardless if you actually know what it is, is like saying that Hillary's emails have nefarious stuff on it..

It's frustrating coming here to DU(I left before because of same RWknuckleheadness thinking), and not see anyone looking at the China angle..

Too busy ranting over TRADE, which is essential in a world economy..

[think]

17. Hillary's adviser Joseph Stiglitz wants it scrapped & redo it. Claims trade partners would be

willing to have that happen.

For people wanting more information there is a Democracy Now interview with Stiglitz done yesterday that can be found on their site.

[Recursion]

23. People confuse the bandage for the wound

The jobs are going, whether we sign a trade deal or not. The question is whether we have some control over how and where they go, or not.

[think]

26. I'll take Stiglitz recommendations thank you...

[FighttheFuture]

28. Riiighht. TPP negotiated in secret, no input except from corporations is a model agreement! Pfaugh!

You want to buy an elevator pass?

[Sunlei]

39. here's a link to the entire TPP. It's been public for 3? months.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/TPP-Full-Text

[FighttheFuture]

55. Once it was signed and finalized. Many affected parties were left out, purposefully.

[FighttheFuture]

31. Maybe this "myth" has some legs becasue NAFTA was so bad and hollowed out the

blue collar workers and did a number on the middle class.

this country did quite well with Tariffs for a couple of hundred years. These "Trade" deals are crap designed to make corporations very rich at the expense of the society. Nailing local labor to a cross of iron while capital flows freely around the world for maximum exploitation.

Fuck them!!!

We need leaders who are not corporatists to negotiate these deal. Obama is too much a DLC style democrat and isn't up to the task, alas.

[davidn3600]

66. No one trust these big deals anymore

None of them ever work out to benefit the middle class. It's always the mega corporations that benefit the most. It's always the people at the top or politicians financed by the people at the top that write these agreements. They dont have the best interests of the working class in mind.

[humbled_opinion]

15. and it starts...

Now all the stories why we need to change what we believe or rather evolve on the issue..... ENOUGH TPP is a non starter for any Democratic President.

[REALforever]

20. So does Hillary.. Um..duh?

But the main reason that Obama and many are FOR it is because of China's potential influence..

We can't afford to look at small pictures because of past issues.. That's whats going on here.. Especialy when nobody has actually read it and are just using the past trade pacts as a guideline..

To me, it's like supporting President Obama but not TRUSTing him once again

[FighttheFuture]

30. I recall Trust but Verify... we verified and do not like what we see from Obama.

nothing wrong with that!!!

Only a lemming would follow someone blindly, like they do for Trump. Obama has to deal with people who actually think and the TPP failed, miserably.

[Sunlei]

37. "nobody has actually read it" Not true its online in public, I read some of it. IMO treaties and agr

agreements are a good thing for a modern world.

[FighttheFuture]

58. No, Treaties are very dangerous. They override all law, even our Constitution. To allow

capital, corporations, to have their way with our country for their profit is stupidity and insanity, or even something much more malevolent.

[pampango]

63. Negotiations and agreements are preferable to unilateral American action when

it comes to dealing with international issues.

FDR reversed the isolationism he inherited and promoted international organizations and negotiations.

[ReRe]

19. A big fat bullshit...

... is what this is. Booga booga boo! Are we scared yet?

I call this a total crock.

[forest444]

21. Shameless red-baiting, 21st century style.

Too late though: by now it's pretty clear to most people that the TP-Pee would hand the keys to the castle allright - but to Benedict Arnold corporations who see this as their opportunity to finally and officially be above the law.

Beside which, the TPPee was already dead; NAFTA killed it.

[Jopin Klobe]

24. Right ...

... because the Communist Chinese are well known for following the rules ...

... just like our oligarchs ...

[Wilms]

25. Froman is foaming.

It's his job.

[jtuck004]

27. “You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're

“You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress."

Malcom X

[Sunlei]

35. Thats right China is not a signer country of TPP. They would rather ALL the tiny Asian-pacific count

Asian pacific countries Never be allowed trade treaties & agreements with other countries.

[Trust Buster]

40. Sure, lock us out of the fastest growing market and fastest growing middle class of the next 50

years. Who needs those customers anyway ? Let China corner the Asian market. If you think that will lead us back to the good old days when a worker with only a high school education can make 60-70 g's, then you're dreaming.

[George II]

41. I wonder how many people here and elsewhere who have commented on the TPP....

...have actually read it.

It's 617 pages PLUS 118 Annexes and 60 associated documents.

[bluedye33139]

43. I'll admit I'm going purely on party loyalty here

I was originally fairly open to it, now I'm opposed. First because of loyalty to Obama, then loyalty to my party's progressives.

I wish the drafting had been a more open process.

[uawchild]

46. People actually don't read Supreme Court rulings or Congressional legislation either

They depend on experts to tell them what such documents contain.

Saying "how many people have actually read it" about the TPP is like asking how many people actually read the Roe vs Wade decision by the Supreme Court.

To imply that people who have not "actually read it" are ignorant of the contents is disingenuous. I hope you are not doing that.

[George II]

48. Well, there are experts who are against it and experts who are in favor of it. How do we know...

...which is right?

[uawchild]

50. By listening to the points they make

Are the experts for it addressing YOUR concern, or are they addressing corporations?

Are the experts against it concerned about the effect on American workers, or are they simply anti-trade.

You weigh the arguments made by both sets of experts and decide who is more believable in the ensuing debate.

Honestly, THAT is how 99.99% of us make up our minds on ALL legislation. Why should commenting on the TPP be held to a different standard.

Using your logic no one should be commenting on the Russian hacking accusations because no one here has actually seen the the data, metadata and the internet traces themselves -- we are all relying on experts to decipher and inform us about that. Again, this is common place and sensible, so why should people commenting on the TPP be held to a different set of standards? Obviously, they should not be.

[iandhr]

52. On a complex subject like this I would say...

... that many of the experts who are in favor have legitimate points and those who are against it also have good arguments.



Unfortunately, our 10 seconds sound-bite political culture doesn't allow for a nuanced conversation.

[Jim Lane]

65. No experts are impartial, so you can start by asking what interest they serve.

For example, when it comes to public health issues, I have a lot of confidence in the experts at Médecins Sans Frontières. MSF has concluded that "the TPP is the most harmful trade pact ever....."

Other NGOs have reached similar conclusions about their areas of expertise.

[Sunlei]

47. I read some of it, after about 30 PDFs I had enough. I really liked the plain pack requirement for

ciggies similar to Australia's (they're also a TPP signer country), and the safety requirements for tobacco leaf pickers.

I don't think our American tobacco growing industry likes that to much. People can't pick those leaves fast enough if they're protected in the fields from exposure to nicotine.

[turbinetree]

49. Sorry, Give the American Middle Class and the working poor a break----------its about TARIFFS-----

its about TARIFFS and how those TARIFFS have destroyed the manufacturing base in this country, and taken the infrastructure of the country in some cities with violence, its about the economics.

Spoken like a true lobbyists, that was hired to do the bidding of lobbyists, and to maintain a legacy ----------------really.
Now that the conventions are over we are going to get this "stuff" ------------------really. Please inform the working class and the working poor and now professional jobs how TARIFFS are working so well, should I go into the what steel is going through Mr, Froman, did you go across the Oakland Bay bridge lately, and how a defective product was used, or how South Korea has been dumping steel along with China into the country because of TARIFFS


Ever heard of Fisher body------------why do you think Mr. Froman it doesn't exist anymore----well, here let me give you a clue on it and what happened

And since the flying public is just so concerned with flying and the costs, my profession, and since I was in aircraft maintenance for over 25 plus years, you know the very plane you jetted off to Lima on , if it was commercial, let me give you and oldie but goody fact, and if you think they are just doing it south of the border, think Singapore, China into the equation

http://teamsternation.blogspot.com/2011/05/look-what-our-trade-policy-did-to.html


http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance-disturbing-truth







Honk--------------------for a political revolution

[pampango]

54. China has opposed TPP from the beginning. It likes things the way they are.

Without TPP trade is not 'encumbered' by labor and environmental standards.

Weak labor and environmental laws are some things that China thinks are competitive advantages for it and other relatively poor countries in international trade. They view TPP as jeopardizing these advantages.

And TPP does not "slash" tariffs. As many others have pointed out only a few chapters in it even deal with tariffs and trade. Tariffs are already very low due to the WTO. There is not much room for reduction.

[BunkieBandit]

59. My two cents.

1. So all other FTA's were bad, but this one is good. Okay.
2. Why do we worry about Chinas' business? We need to worry about our businesses and workers.

[FairWinds]

70. "Free Trade" Lies and Propaganda in the New York Times .

My man Dean Baker deconstructs . .

http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press/nyt-does-impassioned-pitch-for-tpp-in-its-news-section#disqus_thread

And no, it is not about tariffs.

Seriously, the corporatists really take us for fools . .