Use of police robot to kill Dallas shooting suspect believed to be first in US history

[NWCorona]

Source: The Guardian

For what experts are calling the first time in history, US police have used a robot in a show of lethal force. Early Friday morning, Dallas police used a bomb-disposal robot with an explosive device on its manipulator arm to kill a suspect after five police officers were murdered and seven others wounded.

“We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was,” Dallas police chief David Brown told reporters.

Peter Singer, a strategist and senior fellow at the New America Foundation who writes about the technology of warfare, said he believed this was a first. “There may be some story that comes along, but I’d think I’d have heard of it,” he said.

Others concurred. “As far as I know, it appears to be the first intentional use of a lethally armed robot by the police in the United States,” said Elizabeth Joh, law professor at the University of California at Davis.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/08/police-bomb-robot-explosive-killed-suspect-dallas

---

I'm not a fan of this action an will IMHO have unintended consequences.

[JonathanRackham]

1. Land drone.

[NWCorona]

4. Exactly

[Kennah]

67. Think of the dark humor SNL could script with this one N/T

[LongtimeAZDem]

2. They used it to eliminate a mass murderer operating from cover, without endangering themselves

That's an appropriate use of the technology, IMO.

[NWCorona]

3. Like I said. This action will have dire unintended consequences

[LongtimeAZDem]

8. Nearly all actions do (nt)

[cstanleytech]

39. Yup though I bet it will mainly be felt by assholes like this guy who feel

its ok to murder people.

[7962]

5. Perfectly acceptable use. No danger of injuring civilians. Only guilty party affected

Would have been nice to have been able to use it quicker, but you cant tote robots around everywhere

[lastone]

6. Unintended consequences

and further erosion of the rule of law - we can not let the police murder people without due process, no matter the offense... Can believe people are not outraged by this...

[LongtimeAZDem]

10. Most reasonable people understand the difference between justifiable use of force and murder (nt)

[lastone]

11. and you are then ok

with being judged by the police department and not a judge or jury of your peers - what if they fking BOMBED the wrong guy? We all agree that in the heat of any situation things often go way wrong, I am amazed and saddened by how easy we piss away our rights... pathetic...

[NWCorona]

13. I agree with you

[Igel]

46. If somebody's shooting at you, you can shoot back in self defense.

That's pretty much a natural right. It's not denying them their right to a trial. It's denying them their right to kill you. Some get pissed off at the idea of being denied their right to produce dead bodies. Most, at least in the US, not so much.

They negotiated; the guy shot at them. If they'd managed to shoot him during the firefight, that wouldn't have batted an eye. He was holed up, hostile, threatening, if they could have shot him, fine. They couldn't, so the remote-controlled vehicle with a bomb on it worked.

That they're police doesn't reduce their right to self defense. They're still human, even if they are blue.

Sadly, those bomb disposal robots are more expensive than a simple RMC toy truck. Could have used that and saved a bunch. Then again, it saved the expense of the trial, incarceration, and the endless appeals just to, as many here would put it in a slightly different context, "get justice for the officers."

[Rhiannon12866]

65. While I hate to hear of any loss of life, I sadly have to agree that you're right

The shooter had already killed five human beings, injured several others, and wasn't about to stop there. This guy was on a rampage and needed to be stopped before he killed many more. Negotiations failed. Sadly, life didn't mean much to him at that point, even his own.

[brooklynite]

56. the police were in negotiations with him...

[Judi Lynn]

48. Moral, sane human beings will be outraged, you can believe it. n/t

[mblock]

55. Due Process

I fully agree with you.No American citizen should be denied due process because we feel we have the right to make such a decision based on the gravity of somebody's crime.Andrea Yates killed all 5 of her children in Texas.She was tried and convicted of capital murder;then she was retried and declared not guilty by reason of insanity.She is now in a mental institution,not on death row.She was granted due process,and in the end justice was served.Who's to say ,without applying due process,that the Dallas shooter was not so insane that he also deserved Mrs. Yates sentence. Rather than being blown up by policemen who, understandably,had nothing but intense hate for the guy,a carefully chosen jury of his peers should have decided his fate.

[christx30]

57. The comparison to Andrea Yates isn't really a valid one.

She wasn't shooting at the police. She wasn't a threat to them. She allowed them to arrest her. She went to court. She had a lawyer. If she had been shooting and screaming "The end is near" at the cops, they would have killed her too.
Johnson was shooting at the police. He was threatening the kill all the white cops. He had already killed 5 people. He said he had explosives.

Yates got due process because she submitted herself to the court system. If Johnson had done the same, he would be in a cell right now awaiting arraignment and his due process. A cop's job is to eliminate a threat to public safety and enforce the law.

[FSogol]

58. Oh. Too bad the Dallas Police didn't have you there to go in and read the

Dallas Shooter his rights!

[TeddyR]

59. I assume you agree that

We should not ban people from buying firearms just because they are on a secret government list, because due process. Right?

[jtuck004]

7. It was a hand grenade on a stick. n/t

[Kennah]

68. Everything goes better on a stick

[MohRokTah]

9. I consider this action 100% legitimate, lawful, and appropriate given the circumstances.

Each situation will be unique, but as I see it this was a very valid use of technology to end a violent and fatal situation.

[NWCorona]

14. So what happens next time there's a hostage situation and

They want to use one of these to make contact? It happens more than you might think.

And I also don't think it was legitimate.

[MohRokTah]

15. There was no hostage in this situation.

[NWCorona]

16. And I said next time.

Do you think the perp will say " oh they took out that guy cuz he was alone "?

You don't know what a strawman argument is.

[MohRokTah]

19. Straman precisely describes your agument.

You added conditions to the argument that were not in existence, e.g. hostage(s).

You created an argument out of whole cloth to tear it down.

"Next time" implies identical conditions, e.g. a mass murderer in body armor that has killed 5 cops and injured another 7 in cover refusing to do anything other than kill more cops.

Any conditions added beyond that becomes a de facto strawman argument against the conditions in which the robot was used this time.

[NWCorona]

21. So by your argument you can't discuss where future tech might lead

And I brought up unintended consequences in my op so I'm covered.

Also "next time" means next time a robot is used. It's highly unlikely that this exact situation will arise again.

[MohRokTah]

22. And once again, you create a strawman

You just made up something so you could knock it down.

[NWCorona]

23. Lol ok

[olddad56]

41. whats a little collateral damage in this day and age.

[MohRokTah]

42. You demonstrate a lack of understanding of law enforcement procedures and desired outcomes. eom

[TeddyR]

60. Setting aside all the argument

This is a really awesome picture. Good job.

[lastone]

12. they could of blown this poor fool up

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/08/during-deadly-dallas-shooting-confusion-swirled-around-armed-man-carrying-a-rifle/

[tclambert]

17. I wish they wouldn't go giving robots ideas . . .

Next thing you know, they'll be looking for Sarah Connor.

[NWCorona]

18. Well they say Skynet is just around the corner lol

[NWCorona]

20. Oh and on a side note

http://m.slashdot.org/story/312915

Not sure if true but definitely funny.

[Ash_F]

24. It was a desperate situation. Definitely worthy of discussion though.

Apparently the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a KILLER FREAKING ROBOT.

[NWCorona]

25. I can agree with that statement

[Ash_F]

26. I don't really have much to add right now.

It's a tough situation. The future is scary sometimes.

Needs thought.

[NWCorona]

27. I'm just wondering if they could have used a CS canister or something.

I'll admit it's definitely easier to Monday quarterback that to make the hard decisions.

[Ash_F]

32. That may have prompted him to charge out firing, since gas just makes you cough.

He charged and killed an officer who was behind cover in one video. He was clearly very dangerous with that weapon.

I think the other best option would have been to wait him out. When people get hungry and tired they can be more susceptible suggestion.

Maybe he indicated that he would attack them soon?

[daleo]

37. Wait him out

No water, no food, no sleep. It would have been good to have taken him alive, to be sure that there were no accomplices. I don't know if there will ever be certainty about that, now.

[TeddyR]

61. Or just blow his ass up

Like they did. He killed 5 police officers, shot several more as well as at least one civilian, and we are worried about how the cops killed him? If he had been out in the open and shot then nobody would be complaining, but since he was killed while cornered we are worried about the means used to dispose of this murderer?

[daleo]

66. We will never be sure if he was acting alone, now

If he was cornered, he wasn't able to do further harm. By waiting and arresting him, the public could find out if he acted alone, as well as other salient details. Now, this will no doubt become fodder for conspiracy theories and urban legends, from every direction.

[Warpy]

28. Unintended consequences

You can bet anybody with a grudge and the least bit of technical expertise gained from playing with radio controlled cars and camera drones is going to up his game now.

[jayfish]

30. Way past that.

[NWCorona]

31. Or resorting to RF jammer or spoofers

[oswaldactedalone]

29. Micah Johnson's mind had gone to pieces

and the Dallas PD helped him get his body to come along. No problem with it.

[DAngelo136]

33. For those of you who find this tactic acceptable

For those of you who say: "Well, it was an appropriate action against someone who endangered the lives of police and was not willing to surrender" then I would remind you of this incident:

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/14/us/police-drop-bomb-on-radicals-home-in-philadelphia.html?pagewanted=all

If you can justify the bombing of an individual, then you can also justify the bombing of many as well. And wouldn't that undercut your arguments against the bombing of people in Syria?

"You can't be wrong AND be strong." as my father would remind me as a youth. The same applies here.

[christx30]

38. How would you handle it?

How many people would you risk in a rush at this guy? Or just wait for 30 hours until he gets hungry or desperate enough to attack? Keep giving him fleeting targets, hoping he exhausts his ammo? Toss in CS gas hoping it'll disable him, and he doesn't just randomly shoot at you while you go to tackle him?
I think the robot bomb was the least bad idea they could have done. There are 7200 seconds in 2 hours. If he didn't want to die, and he wanted to get due process, he could have laid down his weapon at any moment. But he didn't. He wanted to die. Whether he was shot, or blown up, it doesn't really matter in the end.

And this incident is nothing like the MOVE bombing. There were no innocents killed in this bombing. It was just the murderer that got killed.

[Judi Lynn]

49. That was a tremendous observation by your father. I'll remember it. Thank you. n/t

[DAngelo136]

34. I would also add

that the allegations of the late Christopher Dorner seems to be relevant and prescient, don't you think?

http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/what-led-chris-dorner-go-edge-workplace-abuse-racism-and


And how did he meet his demise?

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/how-law-enforcement-and-media-covered-plan-burn-christopher-dorner-alive

So let me get this straight: Suspected White mass murderers are brought to justice alive, but suspected Black mass murderers are bombed? Isn't this disparity of treatment the source of the problem in the first place?

Just sayin'

[Kaleva]

45. Most white mass murderers end up dead

Either by their own hand or killed by police. Regardless of color, if one decides to shoot it out with the police, they will end up dead.

[many a good man]

35. I really don't like the idea of Killer Robots

Flying Killer Robots are worse but this one is also pretty scary.

[Kennah]

69. Oh, c'mon. Next thing you'll be worrying about the Fire Department starting fires. n/t

[sangfroid]

36. All those who think this is an acceptable tactic

In an urban setting, please look up the statistics of those released by the military for wounds sustained during training. Talk about unintended consequences. No one is supposed to be hurt in these exercises, but every year a good number of people are.

Second, it is called shrapnel. No matter how you try to control it, you will still always get hunks of metal and concrete moving at bullet speed as a consequence of explosions. If this tactic goes into the playbook, someone other than the target will, sooner or later, be killed or badly injured. Guaranteed.

Finally, the police are NOT supposed to be an occupying force with the power of life and death over a captive population. They are supposed to enforce the law. That we have become cheerleaders for the grossest leap in lethal police power since the introduction of the SWAT concept is worrisome indeed.

[rockfordfile]

40. I've thought more about this since yesterday

Could the robot be armed with other things? tear gas etc..?

[olddad56]

44. good point, but I think emotions were probbaly running pretty high at the time.

[Judi Lynn]

50. It would make more sense. It would make it easier to be sympathetic to their losses. n/t

[olddad56]

43. I would have preferred the cops just sealed off the area, like air tight...

and just let nature run its course

[pallidin710]

47. Powerful conversation going on over here.

As a immediate and clear danger, it seemed reasonable to have Mr. Robot (no pun intended to one of my fave shows!) rush in and "BOOM" take out this apparent killer with a attached bomb. I don't know if I like that as protocol to handle barricaded suspects. Someone mentioned shrapnel and that was a great point. You can't control shrapnel trajectory. What about gas lines, building structure, secondary debris, premature explosions and that lost ability to have been able to talk the suspect out of his position and surrender.

[Kablooie]

51. We capture wild animals with tranquilizer guns so...

Couldn't a robot be used to shoot tranquilizer darts to incapacitate a target instead of blowing him up?
It may not be the safest method under normal circumstances but it seems preferable to killing him.

[NWCorona]

54. The ends justifies the means argument.

[NeoGreen]

53. Jump ahead...

...what will happen when someone uses a robot to kill a cop?

I see no detente in this escalation.

[TeddyR]

62. I wonder how many of the "wait it out" crowd

Were yelling for the feds to attack and forcibly subdue the tea-party idiots that occupied the refuge in Oregon?

[NWCorona]

63. Not sure. The perspective on which you view events definitely has an impact

Hopefully with certain events or actions. You can step outside your box and realize that some things are just wrong. No matter who it happens to.

[Ash_F]

64. They definitely should not have been letting them receive food, power and heat.

Instead, they were just emboldened and audibly shocked when the FBI finally moved in.


The man who was eventually shot may still be alive if police were a little less supplicating at the start. He would have been more mentally prepared to surrender.