Man shot by CHP on I-10 had no weapon

[villager]

Source: Desert Sun

Man shot by CHP on I-10 had no weapon

Autopsy: Motorist shot 6 times in confrontation with officers after crash

The man shot and killed by a California Highway Patrol officer on Interstate 10 one month ago today was not armed, investigators told The Desert Sun on Wednesday.

Robert Shirar, 32, was shot at least six times — three times in his chest and once each in the right ring finger, right wrist and upper abdomen, according to an autopsy commissioned by the family.

Shirar crashed his pickup into a metal rail on I-10, just east of Jefferson Street, sometime early May 21. Two CHP officers found Shirar underneath the nearby overpass about 5 a.m.

Indio police continue to investigate what led up to the crash and what prompted one of the officers to fire his service weapon, police spokesman Ben Guitron said Wednesday.

“He was not armed,” Guitron said in response to repeated Desert Sun inquiries. “What led to the officer-involved shooting, at this time we are not prepared at this time to release it.”

<snip>

Read more: http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120621/NEWS0801/206210319?fb_ref=artsharetop&fb_source=other_multiline

[elleng]

1. Crashing while brown???

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. Fairly difficult to call him 'brown'

If he was Hispanic, he was 'white Hispanic'.

[elleng]

14. Ok, Crashing while Hispanic.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I can't see how any stranger could tell he is Hispanic

even if they knew his name: http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=shirar

What makes you think he could be Hispanic?

[bonnielou]

39. 6th generation Californian.....

He does have a great great grandmother from Mazatlan

[hedgehog]

2. Just a guess- but if he gestured with his right hand,

maybe the cop read it as him drawing a gun. Once an officer opens fire, he's going to keep firing until the gun is empty.

People need to be taught how to behave around police officers. Let's face it - they are trained to respond automatically to certain stimuli. If I throw something at your head - you're going to duck and/or try to catch it.

[DeSwiss]

7. ''People need to be taught how to behave around police officers.''

- I recommend the Four-toed Salamander's approach:

Self Defense

The Four-toed Salamander is known to have three main forms of self defense against predators. The first is that it purposely sheds off its tail to distract the enemy. When the tail comes of, it is still wiggling around. The enemy gets distracted giving the salamander time to get away. The second form of defense is playing dead. When threatened, this salamander will have a short burst of violent trashes and then stop dead in its tracks. It will stay frozen like this until it feels the threat is gone (Sass and Anderson, 2011). The third and final form of defense is it will curl up and put its tail on its back offering it in exchange for its life. Link

[Exultant Democracy]

53. Which one? Playing dead, shedding a tail, or submission pose?

[DeSwiss]

60. Depends.....

...if its Podunk, USA, then any one of those would likely work. But if you're confronted by cops in Oakland, NYC or Chicago then you're better off being on the safe-side and just go with all three!

[MadHound]

9. Umm, sorry, but the onus is on the police,

They need to learn not to respond to every single gesture as though it were a life or death situation.

This victim just had a crash, and was probably a bit shaken up. When that happens, any person is going to automatically start checking their body to see if they're OK, make sure that things are still in their pocket, etc. They will do this without thinking, and the cops should know this and allow for it. What makes a man, just climbing out of a wreck such a potential threat? Not a damn thing except for the cop's overactive, paranoid imagination. That is the problem we need to address, that is what cops need to be trained for, not pulling their gun and firing unless the person is standing perfectly still.

[hedgehog]

15. "They need to learn not to respond to every single gesture as

though it were a life or death situation."

But that's just it - that's what they are trained to do. They aren't greeters at Walmart.

[Logical]

24. Greetersvat walmart are smarter!

[MadHound]

26. No, they are, or at least supposedly are, trained to use their discretion

Not just start firing whenever somebody twitches a muscle.

[marble falls]

41. No, they're gun happy bullies who seem to shoot more unarmed "suspects" .....

than armed criminals. They seem to think they are an occupying force in another country.

[kirby]

52. BS

Is that why they are taught to shoot all the popup targets in the practice range, including the woman with baby stroller? NOT!

[elleng]

17. Right.

Will check w my deputy sheriff future son-in-law about this.

[The Doctor.]

10. I'm amazed when the apologists for murderers with badges show up.

Just amazed.

[bahrbearian]

12. "To Serve and Protect"

[marble falls]

42. Ironic, ain't it?

[just1voice]

16. A cop gestured and pointed a large gun at me last night as I drove by

The ahole was standing on a dark street, no street lights, no car lights and literally jumped at my car while holding a radar gun and aimed it at my car with both hands in a threatening way. I was going the speed limit so I was not breaking any law but I did think about running him over in self-defense until I could see that he was a cop.

Had I run him over as he was clearly in the wrong and I would have been completely justified in doing so, I doubt any cops and their cronies would have cared to listen to 1 iota of truth, they would frame me.

That's the truth about how to behave around cops, stay as far away from their corrupt asses as you can, always.

[Logical]

23. Please tell me you are not fucking serious!

Please tell me you are not fucking serious!

[stockholmer]

28. no, police officers need to go back to being keepers of the peace, not paramilitary death merchants

Shooter video-gamed raised, mentally fucked after multiple tours of duty in the numerous and sundry US empiric war theatres, then brought home and selected chosen for their lower IQ ranges, then steroided up, and taught (from the federal masters on down) to look at the citizens as just another form of enemy.

Enough already!



PS- Lose the goddamn black star wars stormtrooper look and battlegear!!

[stonecutter357]

30. They shot

They shot an unarmed man at least six times.

[Sans__Culottes]

34. Cops are taught to "double-tap"

Not empty their weapons.

Most unlikely that 6 shots = empty weapon. Modern well-funded departments all issue large magazine autos, no less than ten round magazines + 1 chambered round.


Further, "Hogan's Alley" and like training programs most certainly teach officers discretionary fire and target identification.

There's no excuse for this shooting.

[Sirveri]

40. In the military I was taught to shoot until the threat stopped.

So if they went down with two, that's what I fired, if it took three, that's what I fired.

That said they need to train cops that just because the weapon is drawn doesn't mean they have to pull the trigger.

[Sans__Culottes]

50. War is war

Cops aren't taught to wage war. Not saying that some don't do so, saying that they are trained differently. I received both types of training and they differ.

Police supervisors (police chiefs) aren't cops, they're politico-suits. They don't want the adverse publicity of bullet-riddled corpses.

The suits approve the training.

Cops are trained to double-tap and evaluate. Sometimes they don't follow the training (as in this case), but that's a violation. If a cop violates procedure, it's usually because he fucked up.

(As in this case).

[Sirveri]

51. I got my additional training in 2007, and it was effectively MP training.

Lots of talks about deadly force, only shooting people who had weapons and actually posed a threat. Basically the type of training for policing an occupied civilian population of a third world country. Clearing shoot houses, ships, piers, guard post duty stuff, asp baton, OC, etc... Which considering we were in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time, makes total sense. Not quite so much anti-terrorist training in case they somehow took over the boat I was on though...

In a way I feel sorry for the shooter, because it sounds like they were green or they panicked. I've been there, but lucky for me it happened in training and not in the field. If they weren't green/panicked though then lets just say my opinion of them won't be shared in polite company.

[ti66er8pooh]

64. This is not the case...

Law Enforcement is not taught to "double tap and evaluate" They are trained to stop the threat. Once there is no longer a threat..they evaluate. The double tap is taught as evaluation for possible body armor..if the threat is not stopped after a double tap to the torso, well, you know what comes next...

Sorry, I know this is off topic...but I had to make mention.

[Starboard Tack]

44. Police officers need to be disarmed, then the public needn't be afraid of them.

The routine arming of police is extremely unhealthy for a society that does not want to become a police state. It also encourages the people to arm themselves. Talk about a slippery slope.

[MicaelS]

56. You are living in a fantasy world.

The US is not the UK. The population density of the UK is 662 / sq/mi. The population density of the US is 87 sq/mi. That means the population density of the UK is 7.6 times that of the US.

We have too many rural areas where the low population density, and low number of law enforcement means a 20-30 minutes response time. And you propose to disarm them? Never, ever happen. I imagine many American cops would quit rather than be disarmed, and I would not blame them.

[Starboard Tack]

58. I should have been more specific

Cops should have guns available for extreme situations. What I oppose is the routine carry of firearms by anyone. Citizens cannot be expected to leave their guns at home or in their vehicles if cops continue to carry on their person.
Your argument about population density makes some sense, though there are many rural parts of the UK. I think it is an excellent idea to totally ban the carrying of firearms in densely populated areas. In California, open carry is not permitted in counties which exceed 200,000 population. The danger to society posed by gun carry rises exponentially with population density.
BTW, I agree that what I propose is somewhat of a fantasy, but there is nothing unusual about that. I think most of us live in a fantasy world of one sort or another. Pick your fantasy and I'll pick mine.

[Meiko]

62. HMMM...

I recommend we teach the police officers on how to deal with us low life civilians without killing us. After all we are paying the bills here and have a say on how things go down...how about that?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

3. What? The cops didn't have a "drop gun"? Were they rookies?

[CurtEastPoint]

4. Don't know what really happened (will we ever?) but this link w/photo of him and daughter...

http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120621/NEWS0801/206210319/Man-shot-by-CHP-10-had-no-weapon?odyssey=nav%7Chead

[pennylane100]

5. While the cops are busy trying to find out about his past

the family should start looking at the record of the cop that pumped an unarmed man full of bullets.

[bonnielou]

38. Check background?

how?

[MrScorpio]

6. This confirms my belief that ALL COPS ARE PARANOID in this country

Every person coming across any cop should regard them as armed and paranoid first in order to protect their own safety.

You have no rights in this country that any cop is bound to protect first outside of him or herself, and that includes the right to your own life.

[hedgehog]

18. That's my point exactly! Dealing with any police officer is akin to dealing

with a strange dog. Until you and the dog have appraised each other, you move cautiously to ensure the dog doesn't attack you!

This isn't a slam on police officers. It's just the way it is!

[bupkus]

11. This type of police behavior is becoming so commonplace across our nation

It's not even shocking anymore.

[DFW]

13. Well, of COURSE he was shot six times when he was unarmed

If he had been armed, the CHP would have shot him him 12 times, and if he had drawn a firearm, they would have reacted with some REAL force.

[hedgehog]

19. Firing a single shot, then stopping top see the result is something that

occurs only in bad movies. In real life - people keep firing until the gun is empty!

[Sans__Culottes]

35. Cops aren't people.

They're cops, and they are most definitely trained to not empty their weapons into a perp.

Overkill like this is terrible PR, and senior police suits are all about PR.

Double-tap, I know you've heard it on TV.
At most, the Mozambique Drill.

Besides, it's tactically stupid; what if there's an armed subject hiding in the vehicle?


One explanation for failure to follow protocol could be 'roid over-reaction, you wouldn't believe how many cops are gear-heads.

Or simple cowardice, which would also explain why he shot an unarmed man.

[WingDinger]

20. Pigs have adopted the right wqing attitude. Shoot Trayvon first, then ask questions.

All the right wingers praise the Stand Your Ground law, as they want to blast any smart mouthed kid instead of taking a punch, or in the police instance, having to use a muscle. Either they will taze, beat or shoot your ass. Unless you do as they would insist in a report.

People do not act as they should always. DEAD. I had four cops shove guns in my face at midnite. Insist they didnt need any warrant, knew NOTHING about the fucking law they were to enforce. They said that me not letting them in immediately, was how they knew I was guilty. They roamed around my home, making dumbass winger comments. Asking stupid questions about WHO I had in my crawlspace. Asked me twice. I said, Jimmy Hoffa. Fascist fuck said, OK smartass, now I get to tear your home apart. Had I acted wrong, as I was jolted out of sleep, they couuld have shot me dead, and then searched thru my elementary school records, to exhonerate themselves. This home invasion was retribution for busting a corruption scheme, involving judges and cops inventing traffic laws. FUCK THE PIGS.

[ileus]

45. Sounds like you got on their bad side for all the right reasons...thank you

for the work you done...hopefully you won't be punished forever.

[WingDinger]

46. I moved. The cop substation was only a block away. These guys were yahoos.

Fun part was, I am a REAL marijuana med patient, and had a grow. They were dumbfounded. They said, we just need a pic before we let you go back to sleep. I smiled broadly. Dicey, as my liscence had expired by a month. Their illegal entry, made all their efforts to harass me, exonerated.

[sulphurdunn]

21. I'm confused.

Are there two police agencies involved? Is it legal for CHIP to hold an intern investigation of a shooting, keep it and the identities of the shooter(s) hidden, then declare they did nothing wrong and send them back to work? Did I misread this article?

[jeff47]

54. Yes, there's two agencies involved

The CHP (aka State Police) were patrolling the interstate, and shot the man. The shooting will trigger a CHP investigation of the officer who fired to make sure they followed CHP policy.

However, this is also a murder within a city police force's jurisdiction. That triggers a city police investigation because the CHP was not investigating this murder, only that the officers followed lethal force policy.

The CHP can say "you followed policy" and clear the officers in their investigation. But the city police department can still investigate to determine if it was justifiable homicide.

[sulphurdunn]

55. What happens if the town cops

decide it wasn't justified? How do the feds fit in?

[jeff47]

59. The feds don't.

And the town cops can arrest the CHP officer if they determine it wasn't justified.

[Logical]

25. The idiot cops in this country know there is NO DOWNSIDE to shooting first, they....

Very very seldom pay any price for bad shootings.

[tawadi]

27. Wonder how many of these cops are Iraq vets

Not making excuses for them. Just wondering if war has attributed to these cases.

[damnedifIknow]

29. What the??

:The officers have since returned to work and are on full duty, CHP spokesman Officer Joe Zagorski said. “There is no indication they did anything wrong,” he said."

They shot an unarmed man at least six times and killed him and they don't see anything wrong???

[ManiacJoe]

31. The two shots to the right hand suggest that the cop...

thought he was holding a weapon. It will be interesting to see what lead the cop to that wrong conclusion.

[tblue37]

32. The victim’s mother says that he was a heavy smoker, and that he probably

would have reached to his right pocket, where he kept his cigarettes and lighter, because that was his automatic response when under stress—grab a cig and light up.

Bohart said her son, a heavy smoker, would reach for his cigarettes and lighter under stress. He kept them in his right pocket.
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120621/NEWS0801/206210319?fb_ref=artsharetop&fb_source=other_multiline

[Occulus]

33. I thought "shooting to wound" was impossible

[Sans__Culottes]

36. No.

Why would they aim for a tiny target like the weapon hand?

Cops are taught to fire at center-of-mass, so a bullet 4" off-target will still strike in the body cavity where most vital organs are located.

The hand injuries are more likely defensive wounds as the victim raised his hands after the 1st bullet strike.

Or, the errant rounds resulted from "spray & pray" jitter-firing.

[ManiacJoe]

47. Yes. Folks tend to shoot where they are looking.

When weapons (or perceived weapons) are seen, shots often group around the weapon due to the shooter fixating on the weapon instead of on the user (center of mass) like he should be .

[Sans__Culottes]

49. No

Untrained non-professionals.

Cops are trained to over-ride the instincts of "folks".

Gun-range Guru training is not the same thing.

[PavePusher]

57. Police are not particularly well trained on shooting.

The "highly trained police shooter" is a sad myth.

[bonnielou]

37. More about Robert

http://www.facebook.com/#!/bonnierandy/posts/405866766132810?notif_t=like
http://www.facebook.com/bonnierandy
http://www.robertshirar.com

[damnedifIknow]

43. Yep, send em

overseas and get them used to death and killing then bring them back and hire them as police. I mean, what other explanation is there for this and incidents like Kelly Thomas? It's either this or they've just lost it.

[lib2DaBone]

48. Stop..... "Bang"...... or I'll shoot....

[progressivebydesign]

61. You don't have to have a gun to be a threat.

All you have to do is get close enough, in a threatening manner to the officer's weapon. If an officer is in danger of losing his weapon to someone who is combative, they should shoot. I would.

[Meiko]

63. Yea, that's true

always maintain your distance but it would be unlikely a cop would allow the guy to get that close to him. Maybe the guy suddenly charged him. If he did I can see the cop shooting, but 6 times...damn.

[bonnielou]

65. Robert was a great guy. Our Family misses him terribly. He did not deserve this. We Miss him

A Movie of Robert with his daughter Jadyn. He adored her.<object width="480" height="640"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true"></param><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/2611348539623"></param><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/2611348539623" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="1" width="480" height="640"></embed></object>http://www.mydesert.com/article/20121120/NEWS0802/311200036?fb_action_ids=2584949079653&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=timeline_og

http://www.facebook.com/bonnierandy

<object width="480" height="640"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true"></param><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/2611348539623"></param><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/2611348539623" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="1" width="480" height="640"></embed></object>

http://www.facebook.com/bonnierandy#!/photo.php?v=2611348539623&set=vb.1732302123&type=2&theater

A letter to Kate McGinty at the Desert Sun
I thought you might want to know that Robert was a hell of a lot more than just a family man. I was his brother, (Jerome's) girlfriend for quite some time a few years ago, and let me tell you, Robert meant the WORLD to Jerome. He looked up to him so much, and he just couldn't wait to introduce me to him. I ended up meeting him on Christmas morning at the Bohart's Estate. He was really warm and inviting. It was like I've known him for years rather than a few seconds. He had a beautiful family with him, a little girl, and his wife. The little one was so excited to open all of her presents! He held her in his lap the entire time and helped her tear open the shiny wrapped presents with the giant bows and ribbon. His mother, Bonnie, always had an eye for detail; everything was perfect that morning. It's hard for me to articulate exactly what I want to say- there's so much raw emotion that comes from death, but basically I just wanted you to know this, from someone who is not his family.
Bonnie is an amazing person, and an even more incredible mother. She's raised all of her children into well groomed, productive members of society. Whatever Roberts past may be, is in the past. The important thing for the public to focus on is why his death was deemed necessary. Where do we draw the line when it comes to excessive force, police brutality, etc.? When will we learn that ANYONE when given too much power, can begin to corrupt and give that person delusions of grandeur? We should be able to trust our law enforcement, not question their motives and what they may or may not do next.

It seemed to me after reading your article that those Indio officers are much too quick to pull the trigger, and if I were a judge, or the head of their police department I would be just as quick to sign their severance check and strip them of their title as a law enforcement official, seeing as how law was not enforced, albeit someones husband, some little girls father- is dead. The officers that were on duty that morning are an utter disgrace to our society, and California as a whole. Officers like that give law enforcement a bad name. They make people question their safety. Being a police officer is a privilege. One that shouldn't be taken for granted, nor assume that JUST because they're a 'cop' they'll automatically get off with a slap on the wrist. Seeing as how the one and only witness is dead, I find it hard to believe that killing was necessary. Hopefully this will raise awareness for corrupt officers, and let it be a lesson to ALL officers that act in a similar matter that justice WILL BE SERVED and no one, and I mean NO ONE is above the law.

Thank you for reading this, and have a wonderful holiday.
Loren

[villager]

66. Any news on where things stand with the investigation of the cop(s) who did the shooting?

Follow-up details are always hard to come by on "incidents" like this....