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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:06 PM May 2016

US Military Academy Investigates Black Female Cadets For 'Black Power' Gesture In Photo

Source: Independent UK

Feliks Garcia New York 38 minutes ago



The US Military Academy, commonly known as West Point, launched an inquiry into a group of 16 black, female cadets set to graduate after they posed in a traditional group photo raising their fists - a gesture historically associated with black resistance.

The image prompted an investigation on 28 April to determine whether or not the women broke any rules, West Point spokesperson Lt Col Christopher Kasker said in a statement. Department of Defence guidelines prohibit soldiers and cadets from making political statements while in uniform or on military grounds.

Criticism of the gesture flooded social media streams accusing the women of aligning themselves with the Black Lives Matter movement, which rose to public consciousness after the high profile killings of unarmed black men by police officers.

Army Times, a weekly newspaper that serves active and retired US Armed Forces personnel, said that numerous readers sent in letters that the gesture was, in fact, in violation of the DOD guidelines.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/west-point-black-women-us-militarty-academy-fists-up-black-lives-matter-a7018746.html

84 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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US Military Academy Investigates Black Female Cadets For 'Black Power' Gesture In Photo (Original Post) Purveyor May 2016 OP
I don't know the meaning of the photo matt819 May 2016 #1
Fist in the air in the land of hypocrisy. nt WDIM May 2016 #2
RAGE!!! nt Lucky Luciano May 2016 #19
what a stupid, waste of time investigation virtualobserver May 2016 #3
Our future military leaders Califonz May 2016 #4
BOTH issues require investigation lbrtbell May 2016 #6
You are equating Kelvin Mace May 2016 #7
The same as KKK? How many white people did black power groups lynch? yurbud May 2016 #8
Uh -- you think the Black Power salute equates hoods and the Klan? obamanut2012 May 2016 #16
what a fucked up comparison JI7 May 2016 #18
There's something wrong with person rockfordfile May 2016 #67
I will be nice and say unenlightened about the vast difference between a hood& hating,killing Person 2713 May 2016 #34
They do view themselves as human beings. Clearly there are those who don't. n/t Judi Lynn May 2016 #43
I don't think so rockfordfile May 2016 #66
When I was in the Army, tabasco May 2016 #5
Everyone here seems to forget that. You're right. Same here (AF) 7962 May 2016 #12
Ah bullshit Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #63
Says you. Which means nothing. Rules are rules. Tough shit. 7962 May 2016 #75
Many people who were not in the military would not understand why this is wrong..... Old Vet May 2016 #14
Please--this is not "wrong." Anyone who spent more than five MADem May 2016 #29
Agreed! NWCorona May 2016 #32
Ah bullshit! Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #64
So you have a problem with these women? rockfordfile May 2016 #69
Weird isnt it, what attracted me here was I thought it was a place for liberals. Actor May 2016 #77
I was stationed far from a combat zone ... JustABozoOnThisBus May 2016 #53
The first image that came up when I Googled "Army Strong" was, surprise surprise . . Journeyman May 2016 #9
+1,000,000! nt MADem May 2016 #15
Exactly why an investigation is both required and necessary Big_Mike May 2016 #38
What political cause? Hissyspit May 2016 #40
Mike did say "If it is political in nature". cstanleytech May 2016 #50
That was exactly my point. Big_Mike May 2016 #61
Apparently that's only OK for whitish critters! Thank you. n/t Judi Lynn May 2016 #44
He's actually mostly brown nt 7962 May 2016 #76
Leave the 16 alone, they didn't protest or disrupt, only made a fist at the photo point...come on! downeastdaniel May 2016 #10
'Black Power' stonecutter357 May 2016 #11
I am OFFENDED!!!!!! MADem May 2016 #13
Put a group of white hicks doing the nazi salute and you would probably be offended if they Akicita May 2016 #17
White hicks matt819 May 2016 #21
Ha... TipTok May 2016 #37
Wow philosslayer May 2016 #59
That's not the equivalent of the "Nazi salute" -- and I never thought MADem May 2016 #24
Post removed Post removed May 2016 #30
These are your damn words, and you really need to read what you write MADem May 2016 #31
"Put a bunch of white, freckled jocks" CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #56
I support these women. Lucky Luciano May 2016 #20
Uh..." jtuck004 May 2016 #22
I agree. These young black women are demonstrating strength and pride in their accomplishments. FuzzyRabbit May 2016 #23
I can't believe anyone would call that being "political." MADem May 2016 #27
Concur...Defenders of the weak, duty bound to protect laserhaas May 2016 #45
Yeah, that's not how that works.... TipTok May 2016 #82
Looks like Solidarity salute to me Paulie May 2016 #25
My... MrWendel May 2016 #26
It's a great photo! NWCorona May 2016 #33
I bet most of the cadets in this photo are future generals nt. lordcommander May 2016 #28
Not with judgement like this they wont be... TipTok May 2016 #80
In this country, simply being black is a political act. MrScorpio May 2016 #35
Black people in America have an entire rule book they are supposed to adhere to that white Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #65
This. nt msanthrope May 2016 #83
Leave politics and social issues to your time outside of the uniform... TipTok May 2016 #36
consequences for what? kwassa May 2016 #62
Political and social... TipTok May 2016 #79
Post removed Post removed May 2016 #70
Is it really too much to expect folks to follow the regulations they agree to? TipTok May 2016 #78
It's a really cool photo, and those who have it framed on their wall should be proud. Little Tich May 2016 #39
This message was self-deleted by its author FreedomRain May 2016 #41
Settle down, peeps Roy Rolling May 2016 #42
What you said. EL34x4 May 2016 #60
nope rockfordfile May 2016 #72
Fist in the air means I am Strong! I have Courage! I will not Give Up! I am Powerful! lostnfound May 2016 #46
Looks like a good recruiting photo. I'm sure that was the intention. lostnfound May 2016 #47
They are proud of themselves and eachother for edgineered May 2016 #48
They obviously didn't learn enough to graduate. FLPanhandle May 2016 #49
By activity matt819 May 2016 #51
By activity madville May 2016 #57
I don't see any political statement. A racist might think they see one rockfordfile May 2016 #71
Seems like the last refuge of someone who doesn't have anything to say... TipTok May 2016 #81
Officer Corps.... CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #55
Looks more like the 'Power Rngers' to me. sinkingfeeling May 2016 #52
Could this be the problem....? CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #54
I like it! riderinthestorm May 2016 #58
If you're white and raise your fist, you're saying "Yeah! I did it!" But if you're black gollygee May 2016 #68
A bunch of right wing racists got together and sent in complaints rockfordfile May 2016 #73
they will probably be punished more harshly than the civilians that ordered war crimes yurbud May 2016 #74
What a complete mountain out of a nondescript molehill! Nihil May 2016 #84

matt819

(10,749 posts)
1. I don't know the meaning of the photo
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:09 PM
May 2016

But I will put money on the likelihood that there are tons and tons of other photos out there showing nail cadets of any number of colors and ethnicoties in curious poses.

Just a matter of time before these begin to turn up.

The response by West Point should be interesting.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
3. what a stupid, waste of time investigation
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:14 PM
May 2016

it is a really cool picture.

In the past they have ignored rampant sexual harassment....but THIS needed to be investigated.

lbrtbell

(2,389 posts)
6. BOTH issues require investigation
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:34 PM
May 2016

Sexual harassment should be stopped, no question. But this is no different than if some white guys had donned KKK hoods for a picture.

Racial tensions will only escalate, until people view themselves as human first, and a race second. We need to cooperate to survive.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
7. You are equating
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:40 PM
May 2016

this:



with this?



Seriously?

Racial tensions will only escalate, until people view themselves as human first, and a race second. We need to

cooperate to survive.


Sure, and white people will start doing this when exactly?

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
8. The same as KKK? How many white people did black power groups lynch?
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:41 PM
May 2016

"Black power" simply means standing up for themselves on those issues unique to black people and more generically, not being ashamed to be black.

Person 2713

(3,263 posts)
34. I will be nice and say unenlightened about the vast difference between a hood& hating,killing
Sat May 7, 2016, 11:52 PM
May 2016

vs affirming their life matters
No need to guess much but gotta ask

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
12. Everyone here seems to forget that. You're right. Same here (AF)
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:02 PM
May 2016

And while they have every right to do it, they dont have the right to do it in uniform.

Old Vet

(2,001 posts)
14. Many people who were not in the military would not understand why this is wrong.....
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:13 PM
May 2016

Like another poster said and I concur 100% everyone is green. They may believe in black power now but a tour in combat I suspect would cure that attitude.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
29. Please--this is not "wrong." Anyone who spent more than five
Sat May 7, 2016, 09:21 PM
May 2016

minutes in the Services knows that only sour, ill-suited, admin discharge types didn't pose for these types of pictures with their shipmates/battle buddies after completing initial entry training, be it boot camp, Service Academy, ROTC or OCS.

And anyone who says otherwise is making it up on the fly.

The problem that some complainers are having here is that these women are BLACK. It's like they're not "allowed" to congregate in numbers, or something.

I'm so offended by some of the comments on this "Democratic" board--it's obvious that just putting Harriet Tubman on the goddamned twenty dollar bill is a first step on a long, long journey.

America--get used to it--this IS what America looks like, and it's beautiful.

rockfordfile

(8,704 posts)
69. So you have a problem with these women?
Mon May 9, 2016, 12:24 PM
May 2016

Interesting Democratic Underground, the kind of people let on the website.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,362 posts)
53. I was stationed far from a combat zone ...
Sun May 8, 2016, 09:46 AM
May 2016

... and segregation was prevalent. Not officially, of course, but somehow the clerks were of one race, the cooks of another. There were exceptions, but not many.

In my infantry AIT barracks, during down-time, we tended to hang out in same-race groups. No animosity displayed, just a bit of tension when running through the "other" area. (walking was not allowed, we had to run everywhere).

Perhaps things would have changed when the company was sent to VN. The army, in its infinite wisdom, sent me elsewhere.

(if it matters, this was mid 1960's)

Journeyman

(15,037 posts)
9. The first image that came up when I Googled "Army Strong" was, surprise surprise . .
Sat May 7, 2016, 06:45 PM
May 2016


Maybe all these women were doing was celebrating their accomplishments as they near the close of another academic year.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
38. Exactly why an investigation is both required and necessary
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:16 AM
May 2016

It is against laws passed by Congress for military personnel to promote political causes while in uniform. It is doubly so for officers and cadets. This MUST be investigated, and if it was only solidarity for completion of some phase of training, then it is acceptable and even admirable.

If it is political in nature, they should all be punished, up to and including dismissed from the academy days before graduation, and serve their six year military obligation as enlisted soldiers as a court-martial should direct.

cstanleytech

(26,313 posts)
50. Mike did say "If it is political in nature".
Sun May 8, 2016, 08:17 AM
May 2016

Keyword there being "If" and I assume the investigation will probably look into it and interview the cadets to determine their intent, if they did not have any such intent then they should be ok and this will probably just blow over.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
61. That was exactly my point.
Sun May 8, 2016, 07:34 PM
May 2016

This could either be a misconstrued and misinterpreted picture. What matters is what the cadets message really is. You see hands raised in victory at sporting events all the time. If the gestures are for success in sports, academics, military history even, then all is well and good.

However, it is double-plus-ungood if the gesture is relating to politics. In street attire, they can and are encouraged to form whatever opinion they like. In uniform is an entirely different matter. Politics in uniform is an automatic third rail incident. Shoot another cadet, you may walk free or even be commended. Make a political statement in uniform beyond bless the USA or somesuch, and you should be a grease spot on the office carpet after punishment.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
13. I am OFFENDED!!!!!!
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:12 PM
May 2016

That any branch of DOD would waste a second "investigating" this bullshit.

Put a bunch of white, freckled jocks in the same pose--no problem. Put a bunch of white female cadets in the same pose--no problem. Put a bunch of Asian - Pacific Islander cadets in the same pose--no problem.

But put black people -- male or female -- in a pose expressing empowerment, and they've got a "problem?"

They need to fucking grow up, pardon my French.

Akicita

(1,196 posts)
17. Put a group of white hicks doing the nazi salute and you would probably be offended if they
Sat May 7, 2016, 07:29 PM
May 2016

didn't investigate it. And the freepers would probably be having the same discussion we are. Some saying they did nothing wrong and others saying it was wrong. When soldiers are in uniform they represent the United States and are not allowed to express their personal politics.

That is a great picture though, minus the political gesture.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
21. White hicks
Sat May 7, 2016, 08:04 PM
May 2016

Are not going to be at West Point. I don't believe there's a lot of room there for bubbas, no I wouldn't be terribly surprised to read a report of racism at the military academies. After all, you have all sorts of religious discrimination at the Air Force Academy. But, hey, Smart African-American women? Got to put a stop to that shit right away.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
24. That's not the equivalent of the "Nazi salute" -- and I never thought
Sat May 7, 2016, 08:40 PM
May 2016

that would have to be "explained" to anyone who was a member on Democratic message board.

smh.

FWIW, they are not "expressing political beliefs." I can't believe you said THAT, either.... What, being black is "political" and "separate" (but maybe--or maybe not "equal&quot from "regular Americans?" for those who don't take the point.

Any more than this woman is "expressing a political belief:"



Is that a "political gesture?" Please. And think before you respond, because the frigging WAR DEPARTMENT put that poster out.

I'm even more offended now than I was when I wrote my first post.

Response to MADem (Reply #24)

MADem

(135,425 posts)
31. These are your damn words, and you really need to read what you write
Sat May 7, 2016, 09:47 PM
May 2016

before you hit POST:

Akicita (640 posts)
17. Put a group of white hicks doing the nazi salute and you would probably be offended if they

didn't investigate it. And the freepers would probably be having the same discussion we are. Some saying they did nothing wrong and others saying it was wrong. When soldiers are in uniform they represent the United States and are not allowed to express their personal politics.

That is a great picture though, minus the political gesture.


What's 'political' about being black? "Fighting for our rights" is ... POLITICAL?

It's not a "belief" -- this blackness thing. It's what is reflected in the mirror every day. It's REALITY--not "belief."

Why did you even mention "putting" that "group of white hicks doing the nazi salute" if you weren't comparing them? You sure as hell said THAT should be "investigated."

Sounded EXACTLY like a comparison to me. The greatest shame? Comparing a bunch of Nazi-saluting white hicks to these accomplished women cadets expressing personal pride who are about to graduate. That's just incredible to me.

Keep doubling down, though. smh.

 

CompanyFirstSergeant

(1,558 posts)
56. "Put a bunch of white, freckled jocks"
Sun May 8, 2016, 10:28 AM
May 2016

Agreed.

Very much agreed.

They would just say they were all thinking BEAT NAVY at the same time and put their fists up.

The photo would end up in the year book.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
22. Uh..."
Sat May 7, 2016, 08:09 PM
May 2016


"guidelines prohibit soldiers and cadets from making political statements while in uniform or on military grounds"

They are already making a political statement by being in uniform on or off military grounds. Don't need a pic to see that.

You are teaching them to be strong. There is a picture in which they are demonstrating strong. Do you have trouble taking yes for an answer?

This investigation hurts our country. Stop it.



FuzzyRabbit

(1,969 posts)
23. I agree. These young black women are demonstrating strength and pride in their accomplishments.
Sat May 7, 2016, 08:36 PM
May 2016

And many people are afraid of any blacks demonstrating strength and pride. So this photo of young black women is extremely scary to them.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
27. I can't believe anyone would call that being "political."
Sat May 7, 2016, 09:15 PM
May 2016

Especially on a Democratic board. It blows my mind, too, and I agree with your assessment that it is hurtful.

Funny how no one had a problem with this kind of "posing" at all the academies--none of that "Waah, they're in UNIFORM" whining....



I spent decades in the military and get a check every month from our dear Uncle Sam in gratitude for that time. If this non-incident had crossed my desk for judgment, I would want to know what bitter troublemaker was being a morale busting asshole and stirring up shit for savage amusement...

All anyone has to do, if they want to see all sorts of "posing in uniform" pics, is peruse the facebook pages of kids on active duty. Some are artful, some are just dumb, but it's what kids do. This isn't the exception with the young ones, it's the damn rule.

It's not like they have their boots on the necks of enemy corpses, or they're holding up severed heads and cackling about it. They're getting ready to graduate, to scatter to the four winds, and they're memorializing--with their friends-- a tough four year slog through a miserable, constricting, rules-and-regs course of instruction that would break the backs of most kids their age.

I really think the roots of this "investigation" lie smack-dab in RACISM, and that is what OFFENDS me mightily.

MrScorpio

(73,631 posts)
35. In this country, simply being black is a political act.
Sat May 7, 2016, 11:58 PM
May 2016

Needless to say, black people can never have the luxury of disregarding the relevance of our own race in whatever situation we find ourselves in.

Had these women been white, doing the exact same thing, no one would care about it.

Jackie Wilson Said

(4,176 posts)
65. Black people in America have an entire rule book they are supposed to adhere to that white
Mon May 9, 2016, 11:55 AM
May 2016

people dont even know exists.

Yes, being black in America, walking out your door black, is both a political statement and a risk, given our police forces.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
36. Leave politics and social issues to your time outside of the uniform...
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:11 AM
May 2016

Easy peasy...

They don't need to lose careers for it but they need to have some significant consequences.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
62. consequences for what?
Mon May 9, 2016, 10:56 AM
May 2016

How is this political? The question is repeatedly asked, and you certainly don't have the answer.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
79. Political and social...
Mon May 9, 2016, 08:25 PM
May 2016

I would hem these folks up as I would anyone who went to a political rally in uniform or was pushing their Soldiers to sign a petition for or against the social issue of your choice.

They have every opportunity to do it on their own time but doing it in uniform implies an authority and approval that isn't theirs to give.

Response to TipTok (Reply #36)

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
78. Is it really too much to expect folks to follow the regulations they agree to?
Mon May 9, 2016, 08:22 PM
May 2016

That would apply to anyone pushing an agenda, political or social or both, while in uniform.

They are free to do that in their off time.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
39. It's a really cool photo, and those who have it framed on their wall should be proud.
Sun May 8, 2016, 12:53 AM
May 2016

Nevertheless, it would be best to avoid making political statements while in uniform.

Response to Purveyor (Original post)

Roy Rolling

(6,928 posts)
42. Settle down, peeps
Sun May 8, 2016, 03:20 AM
May 2016

Military people in uniform are not allowed to make political statements or gestures. They are in uniform, they know the rules, they work for the military not themselves. By wearing that uniform they have willingly checked their personal political beliefs at the door while in uniform and sometimes out of uniform, while serving active duty.

I may agree with their political beliefs, but I don't want splinter-group members of the U.S. Military violating their oath to advertise those beliefs while in uniform.

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
60. What you said.
Sun May 8, 2016, 02:28 PM
May 2016

Additionally, these are future officers. They will be expected to lead enlisted ranks of all races and ethnicities.

This little stunt has already handicapped their leadership abilities.

lostnfound

(16,189 posts)
46. Fist in the air means I am Strong! I have Courage! I will not Give Up! I am Powerful!
Sun May 8, 2016, 07:05 AM
May 2016

And in this case it means, I have overcome.

I think the photo is pretty cool.

lostnfound

(16,189 posts)
47. Looks like a good recruiting photo. I'm sure that was the intention.
Sun May 8, 2016, 07:19 AM
May 2016

If WestbPoint was smart, they'd use it as such, and move on.

edgineered

(2,101 posts)
48. They are proud of themselves and eachother for
Sun May 8, 2016, 07:30 AM
May 2016

having made it through what most people couldn't. Try to see it more as the glue that kept them together and strong.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
49. They obviously didn't learn enough to graduate.
Sun May 8, 2016, 08:06 AM
May 2016

Rules against this type of activity in uniform are crystal clear.

It deserves a small punishment.



matt819

(10,749 posts)
51. By activity
Sun May 8, 2016, 08:40 AM
May 2016

Do you mean having s photo taken? Damn these black people! Guess having your photo taken while back is now an offense, unless they're mug shots.

madville

(7,412 posts)
57. By activity
Sun May 8, 2016, 11:01 AM
May 2016

they mean making a political statement while in uniform and/or on active duty. It falls under the UCMJ, Officers actually have additional restrictions that Enlisted don't. Many of the restrictions on active duty apply 24/7, even if they aren't in uniform or at work.

There are all kinds of restrictions on active duty members. Like it is against the UCMJ for an active duty member to have a political sign on their personal vehicle larger than a bumper sticker. Military members get investigated all the time for facebook/instagram/whatever posts and pictures these days.

Shows poor judgment, hope it doesn't negatively impact their careers though. Investigations can make an impact on future promotion boards.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
81. Seems like the last refuge of someone who doesn't have anything to say...
Mon May 9, 2016, 09:36 PM
May 2016

When in doubt, call those who disagree with you a racist.


Certainly simple...

 

CompanyFirstSergeant

(1,558 posts)
54. Could this be the problem....?
Sun May 8, 2016, 09:47 AM
May 2016
Indeed, the Army Times reported that the picture included 16 of the 17 black women enrolled in the class of 1,000 — or 1.7 per cent. West Point remains 70 per cent white and 80 per cent male.


Can't shake up the old boys, can we? I've always hated being around too many officers all at the same time.

Usually, they are just looking to bust people's asses over stuff. Usually, it's to explain why a grunt, who just ruck marched for 25 miles and seriously needs chow, a shower and some rest did not salute them properly.

BTW, for those of you out there considering a military career, go enlisted.

An officer's career is too political, as you can see.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
68. If you're white and raise your fist, you're saying "Yeah! I did it!" But if you're black
Mon May 9, 2016, 12:23 PM
May 2016

and raise your fist, people assume it's some scary black power movement signal.

On the list of things black people are not allowed to do that white people can do: Raise your fist.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
74. they will probably be punished more harshly than the civilians that ordered war crimes
Mon May 9, 2016, 01:58 PM
May 2016

torturing thousands and killing over a million.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
84. What a complete mountain out of a nondescript molehill!
Tue May 10, 2016, 07:50 AM
May 2016

Just look at the two photos: the photo of the cadets (in the OP = from the article
in the Independent) and the Black Power one posted by Kelvin Mace (in reply .7).

There is no comparison. There is not even a close similarity.

I remember seeing the Black Power salute at the Olympics (on TV).
They got out their glove, put it on and raised their arm in a straight salute.

The ladies at West Point have all got bent arms, many not even raised above
their shoulders, in a casual group of friends/comrades.

It isn't surprising that a bunch of bigots saw a photo showing not only "black" people
but "black" women - and successful ones at that - then decided to make a
huge fuss about it. They do that a lot.

It *is* surprising that so many here decided to blindly suck up the bigots' attack
and support it from the "military law" approach without even stopping to look at
the damn photo for long enough to realise what they are really seeing.
Yes, military law about political/social commentary in uniform is very clear.
That still has nothing to do with this photo as the only "social commentary" aspect
is that those black female cadets have won through persevering to the end.


FWIW, the weirdest thing about the whole photo for me (i.e., other than the ridiculous
racist fuss being trumped up about it) is that in those uniforms and with that
background, they look more like Civil War reenactors! (My first impression was
"Why are they wearing Confederate outfits?&quot Maybe that's the reason why the
bigots are upset?

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