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MowCowWhoHow III

(2,103 posts)
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:45 AM Apr 2016

Merkel accepts Turkish request to prosecute German comedian over ‘insulting poem’

Source: Hurriyet Daily News

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on April 15 that she accepted Turkey’s request to seek prosecution of German comedian Jan Boehmermann who recited a sexually crude poem about Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on television.

Read more: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/merkel-accepts-turkish-request-to-prosecute-german-comedian-over-insulting-poem.aspx?pageID=238&nID=97856&NewsCatID=351



Germany Turkey: Comedian can be prosecuted over Erdogan insult - Merkel

Germany will allow prosecution of a comedian who mocked the Turkish president, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said.

"The courts will have the final word," she told reporters. But Germany will now move to repeal a section of the penal code which criminalises alleged insults of foreign leaders, she said.

Turkey asked Germany to prosecute comedian Jan Boehmermann, who crudely mocked President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The next legal move is not yet clear.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36055488


45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Merkel accepts Turkish request to prosecute German comedian over ‘insulting poem’ (Original Post) MowCowWhoHow III Apr 2016 OP
Oh, HELL no! Kelvin Mace Apr 2016 #1
She's a coward. The German people will never forgive her. N/t christx30 Apr 2016 #2
It's not her decision at all. It's the law. DetlefK Apr 2016 #4
If they remove that law before the prosecution, then court might throw case out Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #7
I think, that's illegal. DetlefK Apr 2016 #14
Illegal to make law with retroactive punishment but not law that retroactively removes punishment nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #19
Really, it depends on the country. Igel Apr 2016 #37
Then she didn't have to accept any request from Turkey FLPanhandle Apr 2016 #10
She makes me sick. smirkymonkey Apr 2016 #22
Quote: christx30 Apr 2016 #26
Selective prosecution Angel Martin Apr 2016 #27
So are they going to prosecute right wing christx30 Apr 2016 #30
I just took Bush as an obvious example Angel Martin Apr 2016 #38
I think you and I are on the same page. christx30 Apr 2016 #40
I bet everyone except Merkel is on the same page. PersonNumber503602 Apr 2016 #42
From an article about the law: christx30 Apr 2016 #43
She needs Turkey to help stop the immigrant problem. FLPanhandle Apr 2016 #3
Quite right iandhr Apr 2016 #6
No. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #8
Erdogan is a dictator who has suppressed freedom on speech in Turkey. iandhr Apr 2016 #13
Yes. But it won't work. He won't get more concessions because of this petty case. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #16
I hope you are right. iandhr Apr 2016 #17
He won't get more concessions because of this petty case. Angel Martin Apr 2016 #39
You may not mean it, but those are Trumpian lines against Obama / Clinton Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #12
How much social services do sub-literate immigrants take? AngryAmish Apr 2016 #15
That's the argument against Irish. Also about Mexicans and Muslims that we read on RW sites Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #18
Every immigration movement was adopted to cut wages, NOT to fill in jobs "Americans will not do" happyslug Apr 2016 #23
As may be, but the net result has always benefitted Americans in the long run Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #24
Only according to Economists who wanted to find that to be the case. happyslug Apr 2016 #29
Starting equating slaves & native americans to immigrants is utterly ridiculous. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #31
African Slaves were immigrants happyslug Apr 2016 #33
Problem is not immigrants but rapacious corporations & RW austerity economics. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #34
As a first generation American Blackjackdavey Apr 2016 #32
+1 Blue_Tires Apr 2016 #36
Shouldn't that be Turbineguy Apr 2016 #5
Merkel's a pendulm that swings from right to left. Zira Apr 2016 #9
Coward. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #11
Oh fuck this shit katsy Apr 2016 #20
There once was a man from Istanbul...nt Javaman Apr 2016 #21
Wow. And to think I used to admire Merkel. Coventina Apr 2016 #25
No jokes allowed in Germany anymore Democat Apr 2016 #28
yes she's on a slippery slope Mary Mac Apr 2016 #45
Germany needs to impeach this woman. romanic Apr 2016 #35
There are a lot of Turks in Germany, and many of them vote. JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2016 #41
sometimes the good is the enemy of the best to paraphase Flannery O' Connor. Mary Mac Apr 2016 #44

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
4. It's not her decision at all. It's the law.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:07 AM
Apr 2016

And the article clearly states that they will modify that paragraph in the future.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
7. If they remove that law before the prosecution, then court might throw case out
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:10 AM
Apr 2016

They could even make it retroactive and explicitly excuse / block / pardon cases that occurred within the last year or three years or whatever.

Igel

(35,356 posts)
37. Really, it depends on the country.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 12:38 PM
Apr 2016

In the US you can rewrite a law retroactively to exculpate but not incriminate.

If X was legal last year, it can't suddenly become illegal.

If X was illegal last year, it can become legal retroactively.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
10. Then she didn't have to accept any request from Turkey
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:15 AM
Apr 2016

The fact is, she accepted a foreign request to prosecute one of her own citizens that would not have faced any charges if she had said no.

It's totally in her power or there would have been no press conference or decision by her.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
26. Quote:
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:16 AM
Apr 2016
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on April 15 that she accepted Turkey’s request to seek prosecution of German comedian Jan Boehmermann who recited a sexually crude poem about Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on television.

That means she could have told him to sit and spin.
If the law were the law (or something that got enforced), more Germans would be in prison for publicly insulting world leaders. But that crappy excuse for a leader made a decision out of fear.

Angel Martin

(942 posts)
27. Selective prosecution
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 10:43 AM
Apr 2016

of a bullshit law.

I wonder if anyone in Germany "insulted" George W Bush during his eight years in office ?

This is just craven. And Germany is supposed to be a reliable ally against ISIS ?

christx30

(6,241 posts)
30. So are they going to prosecute right wing
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:11 AM
Apr 2016

Germans that complain about Obama? And if they're not, you're right. This is cowardly as hell. Merkel caused a huge mess in her country. And she wants others to clean it up for her. And Boehmermann rattled the wrong cage. Ruffled the wrong feathers. He and his poem complicated things. He's gotta go down.
She has sunk to a low I didn't believe she could have. I wonder who will replace her once she gets trounced in this election.

Angel Martin

(942 posts)
38. I just took Bush as an obvious example
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 04:06 PM
Apr 2016

since he was so unpopular in Germany, and there were massive protests denouncing him, in not very polite terms.

Obama too, especially after NSA phone-gate.

Also, what about Putin ? Not everyone in Germany thinks he is wonderful, and they are not shy about saying it.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
40. I think you and I are on the same page.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 05:03 PM
Apr 2016

All anyone has to do is point to the lack of prosecutions for this "crime", and the case will be dismissed. It'll be shown as an attempt at a legal hit on someone who's words have made things inconvenient for the president. Merkel the fool, Merkel the coward is sucking up to a fascist. Erdoğan can't help who and what he is. I'm convinced that kind of tyrannical behavior is a mental deficiency. But Merkel is making a choice here. She's choosing political and diplomatic expediency over freedom of expression in her country. And this is not going to end well for Germany.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
43. From an article about the law:
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:57 PM
Apr 2016
The article dates back to the penal code drafted when the German Empire was formed in 1871, although at that time it just applied to monarchs.

It has been little used in recent years and is colloquially known as the "Shah law" among German lawyers after the Shah of Persia successfully brought a case against a Cologne newspaper in 1964.

A Swiss man living in Bavaria was also prosecuted under the article in 2007, after he posted offensive comments about the then-Swiss President, Micheline Calmy-Rey, on the internet, according to German and Swiss media


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36055488

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
3. She needs Turkey to help stop the immigrant problem.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 07:55 AM
Apr 2016

The problem she, herself, created by committing to a open door policy.

She fucked up her country, endangered her own citizens, and now is cracking down on speech. What a great leader.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
8. No.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:11 AM
Apr 2016

It's an obscure bit of law that the article makes quite clear is going to be repealed.

No blackmail.

iandhr

(6,852 posts)
13. Erdogan is a dictator who has suppressed freedom on speech in Turkey.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:36 AM
Apr 2016

He is trying to use the refuge crisis to extort Europe. He will think this a big victory and will use it to try and extract more concessions.



Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
16. Yes. But it won't work. He won't get more concessions because of this petty case.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:41 AM
Apr 2016

Further, it's hurting his international reputation, which is already rather low.

Angel Martin

(942 posts)
39. He won't get more concessions because of this petty case.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 04:17 PM
Apr 2016

Are you kidding me ?

I'm sure they will repeal the law, but what happens after repeal, when the next person in Germany says something that offends Erdogan's lese-mageste ?

Erdogan is going to threaten a flood of refugees unless his critics in Germany are appropriately punished, law or not.

The German leadership has foolishly put themselves under the power of this vainglorious jackass. And now they are going to have to humour him.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
12. You may not mean it, but those are Trumpian lines against Obama / Clinton
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:17 AM
Apr 2016

Fact of the matter is that both the US and German economies grew more than they would have otherwise by using a pool of immigrant labor willing to do jobs that national citizens were very reluctant to do.

If you deport 11 million people to Latin America, the US economy would be sabotaged and many citizen's jobs would be lost as companies would go under.

But, if you read the excerpt in the OP, Merkel is opening up free speech. She is going to remove the law that gives her no choice but to allow the prosecutors to do their lawful duty to prosecute that particular kind of speech.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
15. How much social services do sub-literate immigrants take?
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:38 AM
Apr 2016

Schools, health care etc.

And is it a good idea to import an underclass with different cultural values?

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
18. That's the argument against Irish. Also about Mexicans and Muslims that we read on RW sites
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:53 AM
Apr 2016

If people come in and work, as they do and they work hard, then they deserve social services. Especially schools.

Those exact same arguments were used against the Irish that came to America. "an underclass with different cultural values" (Catholicism, for one).



mass grave of 57 Irish immigrant workers who died in August, 1832, of cholera. ...
Prejudice against Irish Catholics contributed to the denial of care to the workers.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. Every immigration movement was adopted to cut wages, NOT to fill in jobs "Americans will not do"
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:42 AM
Apr 2016

That was true in the 1700s, 1800s, 1900s and today. The problem is NOT that Natural Born Citizens do NOT want these jobs, but refuse to take them at wages employers want to pay. This immigrants were a source of low pay workers that brought down the pay to other workers (and this more then anything else is the reason for the long history of hatred to whoever is immigrating).

The classic case is the workers brought in to do high tech work. High Tech business says they need these workers do to a shortage of workers, but the real problem is what those employers want to pay can NOT even pay for the collage loans high tech workers have to pay.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,036 posts)
24. As may be, but the net result has always benefitted Americans in the long run
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 09:56 AM
Apr 2016

By being at least a little bit open to immigrants, Americans have benefited mightily.





Andrew Stephen "Andy" Grove (born András István Gróf; 2 September 1936 – 21 March 2016) was a Hungarian-born American businessman, engineer, author and a science pioneer in the semiconductor industry. He escaped from Communist-controlled Hungary at the age of 20 and moved to the United States where he finished his education.
-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Grove



I'm sure it is only a matter of time till the Turkish equivalents develop in Germany.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
29. Only according to Economists who wanted to find that to be the case.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:05 AM
Apr 2016

One source of immigrants were African Slaves. Their importation was an economic GAIN for the country, through most such slaves did NOT think it helped them.

Another group that did NOT benefit from such immigration were Native Americans, those immigrants were taking lands from Natives till the 20th century. Now, most people on the frontier after after 1750 had been born in the US (or the American Colonies pre 1776), but a sizable number were immigrants from overseas. They replaced those pesty First Americans who just wanted to hunt buffalo with hard working farmers.

The US had an very advance set of rules regarding women in the workplace, till the Irish came in and undercut those practices starting in the 1830s. US skilled Iron workers were replaced by immigrants for the skill workers demanded higher pay and the employers refused to pay them.

As to your photos of successful immigrants, so what? There have always been cases of people being successful in any society and such individual success proves NOTHING. Individuals have always done well, even when the rest of society is dying. German industrialists did well under Hitler, does that prove Hitler was good for Germany? No. Werner von Braun became known as a top notch rocket scientist under Hitler, does that prove Hitler was good for Germany? Again NO. Kalashnikov was a top notch weapons maker, did that make the Soviet Union a good place to live? Again NO.

My point is you can NOT cite individuals when it comes to immigration, you have to look at groups. Most Economists are most concerned about the top 1% for that is who pays for their services (which is why most Economists hate Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes and Henry George, all three proposed three different sets of economic theories that work to a degree, but at the cost of the 1%). You have to remember spending is what drives any economy. For that reason if one person earned a billion dollars that earning has little affect on the economy. On the other hand a billion workers getting an extra dollar has a HUGE affect on the economy, for they will spend that billion dollars, and SPENDING money is what drives the economy, not holding it is a bank (or in a saving account or even paying off debt). Thus anything that cut wages on the law end of the economy has a HUGE negative affect on the economy, even if the 1% gets more then what the bottom lost. On the other hand. most economists work for the 1% and justify any increase to the 1% even when it hurts the economy as a whole.

Side Note: Karl Marx is now out of favor do to the fall of the Soviet Union. Karl Marx was correct on two things and wrong on a third. First Karl Marx demonstrated how classic capitalism will grow and then destroy itself (Karl Marx relied on Adam Smith and took Adam Smith's economic theory to their logical conclusion). Karl Marx has also been proven correct in how revolutions occur, the CIA follows Karl Marx's teachings to the letter when it comes to causing a revolution (or preventing one). Karl Marx's failure was trying to determine what will replace Capitalism. Marx himself says it will take 500 years to come up with a replacement, most Marxists did not want to wait that long so developed ways to speed up the process, the problem was you ended up with excessive bureaucracy and military spending, both of which ended up killing the Soviet Union.

Henry George is interesting, he advocated the taxing of real estate only (and NOT improvements on the Real Estate, just the land itself, i.e. the lot your home sits on, not the home itself). George is hated by the 1% almost as much as Marx, for the 1% knows when it comes to value of land, location is everything and George wanted to tax any value of the land produced by its location as opposed to improvements to that land close to 100%. George rationale was that such value was NOT a product of who owned the land, but what others did around it and since most such improvement was done by the State, the State should get the value of such improvements.

More on Henry George:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George

More on Keynes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
33. African Slaves were immigrants
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:37 AM
Apr 2016

And most white immigrants immigrated for econmic reasons NOT for "Freedom". The reason for the slave trade was to get cheap labor, which was also the reason for indentured servitude of the 1700s and mass immigration of the late 1800s. Thus the reason for all three were the same, to keep wages low.

Blackjackdavey

(178 posts)
32. As a first generation American
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:26 AM
Apr 2016

with German relations, I can tell you, normal Germans don't share your point of view. Your view is widely held by American xenophobes however, which my German family members are unable to wrap their head around. It is actually a bit embarrassing as they paint us (me) with the broad brush of American attitudes toward race at our family reunions.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
20. Oh fuck this shit
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 08:54 AM
Apr 2016

Coward.

And fuck turkey and their chancellor's nutfuckery.

I'm so disappointed in merkel.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
35. Germany needs to impeach this woman.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 11:44 AM
Apr 2016

She is a coward and a danger to her own people and country. Fuck her and fuck Erdogan.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,364 posts)
41. There are a lot of Turks in Germany, and many of them vote.
Fri Apr 15, 2016, 05:37 PM
Apr 2016

So, yeah, she's pandering. She's a politician. We have those, too.

Mary Mac

(323 posts)
44. sometimes the good is the enemy of the best to paraphase Flannery O' Connor.
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 07:20 PM
Apr 2016

I now believe Europe cannot be overrun with migrants and refugees who don't share the core values of Europe. No good deed of Merkel's will go unpunished.

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