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mia

(8,361 posts)
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:04 PM Apr 2016

What Obama Says Is His 'Worst Mistake' as President

Source: ABC News

In his final year in office, President Obama has spent a significant amount of time emphasizing what he sees as his long list of accomplishments since 2008, but in an interview today he also admitted what he considers to be his "worst mistake."

"Probably failing to plan for, the day after, what I think was the right thing to do, in intervening in Libya," Obama said an interview with "Fox News Sunday."

The 2011 U.S.-backed intervention that helped topple Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi wound up thrusting the country into turmoil that has only spiraled downward since.


Both Obama and then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton continue to argue that it wasn't the removal of Gaddafi that caused the chaos, but rather the failure to prop up a stable government in the days following. An ISIS affiliate has since gained a foothold in the country, and the U.S. has carried out airstrikes against "ISIS camps" as recently as February....


Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-worst-mistake-president/story?id=38289813

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What Obama Says Is His 'Worst Mistake' as President (Original Post) mia Apr 2016 OP
Except he didn't think it was the right thing to do nichomachus Apr 2016 #1
yup,she did,with advice from Sidney Blumenthal wendylaroux Apr 2016 #5
Obama considers her loyal. Nitram Apr 2016 #71
I like pretzels. wendylaroux Apr 2016 #72
Me too. With beer. But they aren't the best analogy for logical reasoning. Nitram Apr 2016 #73
exactly wendylaroux Apr 2016 #74
No one knows what Obama considers her and, as Secretary, she made a very bad recommendation. merrily Apr 2016 #76
And involving Blumenthal after being given direct instruction to keep him away, again goes Kittycat Apr 2016 #89
The buck stops where? Zambero Apr 2016 #43
Not the point. Obama is not running. The SOS who made the horrific recommendation is running. merrily Apr 2016 #78
Right, it failed because we didn't intervene enough. bemildred Apr 2016 #2
We didn't do nation building? RobertEarl Apr 2016 #18
To be fair, he's admitted that, that is his complaint, we didn't do enough. We didn't plan. bemildred Apr 2016 #57
We didn't plan on rebuilding RobertEarl Apr 2016 #75
A very messy subject. bemildred Apr 2016 #82
He'll want to be remembered RobertEarl Apr 2016 #86
I think he could make a really interesting ex-President, so there's that. bemildred Apr 2016 #85
you mean after we saw what happened across the Med ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2016 #92
Dear President, it is time to stop covering for SoS Clinton. She talked you into this and you should thereismore Apr 2016 #3
That is not what he does. iandhr Apr 2016 #7
NOT prosecuting bushco for war crimes or bankers for destroying the economy onecaliberal Apr 2016 #4
I like your list but there's more swilton Apr 2016 #14
Here's a few more that he shouldn't have signed: davidpdx Apr 2016 #66
Then there is FUBAR...our foreign legacy anacromym. n/t libdem4life Apr 2016 #87
His worst mistake happened before he was even sworn in. Cassiopeia Apr 2016 #20
yes Locrian Apr 2016 #31
That was a day I groaned in disbelief Plucketeer Apr 2016 #54
Yeah, his feet must be killing him! Elmer S. E. Dump Apr 2016 #56
Anybody read the book The Fixers? 2cannan Apr 2016 #81
thanks - looks like a cool read n/t Locrian Apr 2016 #84
Agreed. And that was my first thought before W was sworn in. nm floriduck Apr 2016 #77
It's all of a piece. He's a New Democrat, so of course, his picks were New Dems and Republicans. merrily Apr 2016 #80
Yup. Like GWB, Obama surrounded himself with bad staff, imo (nt) bigwillq Apr 2016 #100
I don't know, I think I'd put no jobs programs high up on the list. The military PatV Apr 2016 #41
Well, to be honest... freebrew Apr 2016 #68
Churchill became PM in 1940 after the Gallipoli fiasco in 1915 Califonz Apr 2016 #6
I think his worst mistake was thinking the Repugs would ever cooperate with him diane in sf Apr 2016 #8
I agree---his trusting and accomodating the repubs was his worst mistake. (nt) Paladin Apr 2016 #10
Exactly right. 3catwoman3 Apr 2016 #11
have to agree nt steve2470 Apr 2016 #15
My first and thought as well. nt Lucky Luciano Apr 2016 #19
They have on what is most important to him Cassiopeia Apr 2016 #21
+1000 TeamPooka Apr 2016 #24
That was my first thought rpannier Apr 2016 #25
That's a big one. Even bigger was when he found out they wouldn't, he kept on giving them PatV Apr 2016 #42
I agree Democat Apr 2016 #63
I am freaking amazed... yallerdawg Apr 2016 #9
I'm amazed that you think the USA is the policeman of the world. tabasco Apr 2016 #16
Self-determination means we don't set up anything! yallerdawg Apr 2016 #23
Oh, okay. tabasco Apr 2016 #44
So far... yallerdawg Apr 2016 #45
So... rpannier Apr 2016 #26
See? There it is. yallerdawg Apr 2016 #30
Zero credibility with you rpannier Apr 2016 #39
Better than absolute national collapse. Scootaloo Apr 2016 #29
Heavy-handed intervention? yallerdawg Apr 2016 #33
Read the OP and get back to me Scootaloo Apr 2016 #34
I read the article. yallerdawg Apr 2016 #36
Sit down Scootaloo Apr 2016 #37
Saddam Hussein's own people were getting ready to remove him in a coup. DhhD Apr 2016 #83
good grief -- foreign military interventions is how "self-determination" is realized? stupidicus Apr 2016 #38
As long as they don't bother us or behead Christians I'm fine with dictators over what replaced them Reter Apr 2016 #46
"Far worse." yallerdawg Apr 2016 #48
Ah, you are reading the spin that was pushed by PNAC and the ultra right. ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2016 #93
I'm not reading revisionist history. yallerdawg Apr 2016 #95
No, you are regurgitating the crap that they tried to feed us all. ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2016 #99
Long story short. Xolodno Apr 2016 #12
THERE WAS NO MESS until we intervened! ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2016 #94
I thought it was assuming Republicans want what's best for its citizens. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2016 #13
Lack of cost controls in the ACA? Umbral18 Apr 2016 #17
First they stole the 2000 election RobertEarl Apr 2016 #22
Worst Mistake noretreatnosurrender Apr 2016 #27
they also blamed France and Britain--"here, stick your dick in the same mousetrap we are!" MisterP Apr 2016 #28
I am speechless. Skwmom Apr 2016 #32
Domestically, his continuation of Bush education policies. callous taoboy Apr 2016 #35
I thought it might be his support of DWS for DNC chair. Gore1FL Apr 2016 #40
Beats the hell out of Dubyah's sniggering: "Gee, I cain't think o' nothin' I did rawng!" Aristus Apr 2016 #47
wasting time playing footsies with repukes Skittles Apr 2016 #49
My question is why President Obama chose the lack of a plan after intervening in Libya . . . PWPippin Apr 2016 #50
I suspect what is he saying is his mistake is trusting certain people... DemocracyDirect Apr 2016 #51
I guess he can't admit that appointing DWS to head of the DNC was his worst error fbc Apr 2016 #52
Worse beltanefauve Apr 2016 #55
I Think Foreign Military Intervention That Helped Grow ISIS.. Corey_Baker08 Apr 2016 #58
Tim Kaine was DNC chair in 2010. moondust Apr 2016 #61
I think Third Doctor Apr 2016 #53
Not prosecuting Bush? SoapBox Apr 2016 #59
The list is so much longer zipplewrath Apr 2016 #60
I disagree. Maedhros Apr 2016 #79
I understand zipplewrath Apr 2016 #101
His biggest mistake was trusting, and listening to, Hillary. Scuba Apr 2016 #62
You are a broken record and many are sick of hearing it Democat Apr 2016 #64
Feel free to use the ignore function. I'm sure many do. Scuba Apr 2016 #65
Feel free to stop the anti-Clinton propaganda. Nitram Apr 2016 #90
If I've repeated any untruths, please point them out and I'll self-delete. Scuba Apr 2016 #91
Feel free to self delete. Nitram Apr 2016 #96
Gee, lemme try to remember who was Sec. of State at that time, tabasco Apr 2016 #67
His biggest mistake was thinking he and the GOPee could work together. muntrv Apr 2016 #69
Mitch McConnell's day one comments spoke to that Zambero Apr 2016 #70
Lybia, Syria, ... ozone_man Apr 2016 #88
Mistakes surfer2009 Apr 2016 #97
He's always said that. Sunlei Apr 2016 #98

wendylaroux

(2,925 posts)
5. yup,she did,with advice from Sidney Blumenthal
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:25 PM
Apr 2016

who Obama detested. Hillry loyal to the prez? I don't bloody think so.

Nitram

(22,802 posts)
71. Obama considers her loyal.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 01:00 PM
Apr 2016

And Obama is big enough to make a decision with or without the advice of otherwise. The twisting you do to blame Hillary for everything would be the envy of a pretzel maker.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
76. No one knows what Obama considers her and, as Secretary, she made a very bad recommendation.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:20 PM
Apr 2016

Whether he should have overruled it or not is not the point. He's not running this time. She is. Her bad recommendation is the point. Once again, her judgment on an important Middle Eastern issue was rubbish.

Kittycat

(10,493 posts)
89. And involving Blumenthal after being given direct instruction to keep him away, again goes
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:22 PM
Apr 2016

to her failed judgement leading to a greater string of problems.

Her experience and judgement is not the kind we need.

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
43. The buck stops where?
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:14 PM
Apr 2016

Well, safe to say that Dick Cheney indeed made "Dubya's" decisions for him. Obama on the other hand is far too intelligent and analytical to blindly accept advice without considering other options and consequences. That is not to say that the outcome of any decision is guaranteed as envisioned. The President spoke the truth. Hillary encouraged it, as did others including NATO allies. Obama, on the other hand, owns it.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. Right, it failed because we didn't intervene enough.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:11 PM
Apr 2016

Not because we wanted to meddle in things which were none of our business and outside any expertise we had, no, not that.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. We didn't do nation building?
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:45 PM
Apr 2016

I think if we go in and destroy a nation's government like we did in Libya, it certainly is a huge mistake to not consider what comes next.

Bernie would not have allowed such a thing to happen. Clinton started it. The choice is clear, Mr. Obama, on who is the best to fix your mistakes.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
57. To be fair, he's admitted that, that is his complaint, we didn't do enough. We didn't plan.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 11:16 PM
Apr 2016

Which is what I disagree with, we should have stayed out, not bombed it into chaos. Getting some asshole, even Gaddafi, is not justification for sending a nation into chaos, and personal vendettas never have a place in international affairs. You can send a guy to the the ICC, sure, glad to, but not at the cost of yet more lives you're supposed to be "helping".

That's my beef with our policy in Iraq (get Saddam) and Syria (get Assad) and our former policy in Iran (get Ahmadinijad). We got bin Laden. We got a shitload of #2s. We wanna get Putin and socialists in Latin America and jihadis in Africa, and it just goes on.

Mullah Omar never quite got up to that level of attention though.

So having got all of those people, now what have you got? Jack Shit, that's what. Less than Jack Shit. And no amount of planning is going to put Humpty Dumpty together again. That is the outcome.

So what is the chance that more of the same will somehow produce a better outcome? Where are the vibrant budding democracies resulting from our magnanimous efforts?

But I think Obama is not that engaged with it, he is just saying what he's agreed to say here. It's faint praise and faint damnation too.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
75. We didn't plan on rebuilding
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:16 PM
Apr 2016

Same again as Iraq. Obama proved he could order cities destroyed but he didn't think it through. Well, at least the public uprising stopped him from invading Syria, even though H's itchy finger trigger almost convinced him.

10 years from now, when Obama looks back and sees how we all forgot about him, he's gonna rightly blame H for his foreign failures. He's almost there now.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
82. A very messy subject.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:32 PM
Apr 2016

I am reluctant to think I know what goes on in Obama's brain, so to that extent I'm not going to agree with you.

But I thought it was quite clear in the Goldberg interview that he has a very jaundiced view of the DC playbook as he calls it.

But he has been typically minimalist about it, too.

I can think up all sorts of theories about why that is so, but none of them really compel me.

But I have thought such thoughts as you myself, and I think about it when I watch what he does, so ...

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
86. He'll want to be remembered
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 09:05 PM
Apr 2016

The way it looks now he will be forgotten. His base has pretty much written him off and his largest legacy may be the trade deal he is pushing.

We are still in Afghanistan, going back into Iraq, the ME is still FUBAR, 9/11 is still a freaking mess of WTF?, banksters still in control, race problems with justice persist, and health care has a mere bandage.

Nothing much has changed in the last 8 years and there was so much hope for change.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
85. I think he could make a really interesting ex-President, so there's that.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:58 PM
Apr 2016

And he's likely to be around for a long time.

thereismore

(13,326 posts)
3. Dear President, it is time to stop covering for SoS Clinton. She talked you into this and you should
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:13 PM
Apr 2016

have known better.

onecaliberal

(32,861 posts)
4. NOT prosecuting bushco for war crimes or bankers for destroying the economy
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:21 PM
Apr 2016

Or appointing HRC and allowing her to take us into more disastrous wars. Take your pick they're all horrendous in their own ways.

 

swilton

(5,069 posts)
14. I like your list but there's more
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:18 PM
Apr 2016

bailing out Wall Street but not Main Street should be added, and in general, allowing the Republican Party to rebrand after 2009.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
20. His worst mistake happened before he was even sworn in.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:46 PM
Apr 2016

His cabinet and adviser picks really set the stage for all the future bad decisions.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
54. That was a day I groaned in disbelief
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 10:25 PM
Apr 2016

WTF is what first came to mind!

My personal irk is that Obama seemingly NEVER found a pair of "comfortable shoes".

2cannan

(344 posts)
81. Anybody read the book The Fixers?
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:31 PM
Apr 2016

From Was the First Obama Election Fixed? New Book Raises Suspicions
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2016/03/was-the-first-obama-election-fixed-new-book-raises-suspicions/



snip

So what you’re getting in Fixers is a spellbinding analysis of the actual dirty deals that toppled Wall Street in 2008 with a new twist – a fictitious character who says he laundered $75 million into the Democratic presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton’s primary challenger in 2007 in exchange for three names on an index card. Those three names had to become the “hope and change” President’s chief economic advisor, Treasury Secretary, and head of the criminal division of the Justice Department. These three key posts were to keep piles of bailout money flowing to Wall Street while simultaneously making sure no Wall Street executives were prosecuted for the crimes that brought on the crash.

The primary challenger to Hillary Clinton and the man who beats her and goes on to become President is called simply OG in the book. (OMG would have worked for me.)

The details in the book surrounding the three names on the index card seem to be channeling Larry Summers, Tim Geithner, and Lanny Breuer, who took the respective posts of chief economic advisor, Treasury Secretary and head of the Justice Department’s criminal division in the first Obama administration and, indeed, sluiced trillions to Wall Street while the Justice Department failed to prosecute, saying it was worried about collateral damage, such as triggering bank layoffs. (Like the collapse of the U.S. economy from untamed financial corruption is not collateral damage.)
 

PatV

(71 posts)
41. I don't know, I think I'd put no jobs programs high up on the list. The military
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:08 PM
Apr 2016

and the private prison industry (as an inmate or worker) just didn't cut it. We ended up with a nation existing on low paying service jobs like flipping burgers.

Obama was a ringer. He lied his way through two campaigns shamelessly. And we were so desperate we believe him.

freebrew

(1,917 posts)
68. Well, to be honest...
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:19 AM
Apr 2016

the people weren't given much choice in the matter.

McCain/Palin ... or Obama

Rmoney/Ryan...or Obama...

More blackmail from our owners.
Now it's gonna be:

Another idiot from Reeperville.... or Clinton(that's what 'they' want)

Already voted 4 Bernie...Let's go New York!!!!!

 

Califonz

(465 posts)
6. Churchill became PM in 1940 after the Gallipoli fiasco in 1915
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:25 PM
Apr 2016

Benghazi was in 2012, so maybe she can be president in 2037 ???

3catwoman3

(23,993 posts)
11. Exactly right.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:56 PM
Apr 2016

Because he is reasonable, mature, and intelligent, he expected the same of others.

Fuck Mitch McConnell and the whole lot of them.

Cassiopeia

(2,603 posts)
21. They have on what is most important to him
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:48 PM
Apr 2016

the TPP.

Obama and Republicans will get that bullshit passed by wrangling just a handful of Dems to help.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
25. That was my first thought
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:55 PM
Apr 2016

That he continued to believe it for so long when it was obvious to almost everyone else baffled

 

PatV

(71 posts)
42. That's a big one. Even bigger was when he found out they wouldn't, he kept on giving them
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:13 PM
Apr 2016

everything they wanted.

Now he's 'fixing' the banking industry. It'll probably be as effective as all his actions against Wall Street during his first term.

Democat

(11,617 posts)
63. I agree
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:58 AM
Apr 2016

He wasted years trying to work with Republicans while they were just trying to run out the clock on his presidency.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
9. I am freaking amazed...
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 05:55 PM
Apr 2016

at how DU seems to think murderous barbaric psychopathic tyrants is a better option than anything else!

Self-determination is one of our core democratic values. We had a bloody civil war when we didn't get it right at the start, and had brutal slavery embedded in our constitution - shouldn't we give the Middle East a chance to get it right? That sounds like a good 'day after'!

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
16. I'm amazed that you think the USA is the policeman of the world.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:31 PM
Apr 2016

Are you glad we ruined our national reputation by invading Iraq illegally, destabilizing the entire region and creating ISIS?

You spent any time in the service? Why should our boys and girls be fighting and dying for what Iraqi and Libyan boys and girls ought to be fighting and dying for? If you recall, we didn't want any foreign intervention during our civil war. Now we think we have the right to go in and set up a government for anybody we don't like. Well, ya' know what? Anything we set up just disappears the minute we leave.

BEEN THERE....DONE THAT!



yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
23. Self-determination means we don't set up anything!
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:51 PM
Apr 2016

I served in the '70's, my son is a disabled vet, my father was a Korean War veteran.

Hillary and Obama salvaged our reputation. I am not going to point out the repetitive facts regarding our present status in Iraq and Libya - you seem to have your own satisfying 'facts' regarding this.



 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
44. Oh, okay.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:23 PM
Apr 2016

Self-determination also means we don't take out dictators we don't like.

That would be up to the people of the country with the dictator, no?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
45. So far...
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:31 PM
Apr 2016

I haven't seen the people rise up in support of these dictators.

Hussein and Qaddafi were not executed by us. Mubarak was put on trial.

Anyone think Assad is real popular - or just a murderous thug who would kill anyone to keep his grip on some kind of power - rather than end up like Hussein and Qaddafi?

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
26. So...
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:00 PM
Apr 2016

toppling Saddam Hussein was a good thing?
And Ghaddafi?
And trying to topple Assad?

Because having ISIL in Iraq-Syria, Libya, etc is such a good thing
The girls that were kidnapped by Boko Haram in Nigeria are just what exactly?
The codifying of women wearing covering in what used to be Libya - now a disaster state is preferable how exactly?
The ethnic cleansing and murdering of various religious and ethnic groups in Iraq was good or preferable?

I guess these are preferable to what was there before or something like that?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
30. See? There it is.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:12 PM
Apr 2016

Hussein, Qaddafi, Assad - all better than freedom to choose their own path?

Terrorists and criminal gang elements are something we can help with. This is a new Middle East, finding its own way.

It's a shame you can't recognize the evil villainy of murderous despots who actually killed many, many more than we have. Hussein at least a million.

Somehow Hillary is at this level?

You have zero credibility for me.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
39. Zero credibility with you
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:58 PM
Apr 2016

Okay. That's fine

I could point out that I have a Masters in International Relations. I could point out that my field was North African Affairs; though now I work on east Asian affairs. But that likely means zip to you, so I'll let that pass with only a mention

The humor (dark humor I'll admit) of your statement is that it contains no attempt to address the issues that have come up as a result of the destabilization in North Africa and the Middle East.
No mention of Boko Haram or ISIS except we can deal with this
We created a mess that has resulted in over half a million people being killed, millions forced to flee for their lives, millions overwhelming Europe and so on
There is more to this than terrorists and criminal gangs.
And not everything is a criminal gang or a terrorist (see below)
We have yet to really show we have a game plan beyond regime change and a belief somehow that this will all work out because we're such good people and have good intentions
And how long and how much money are we going to spend trying to 'fix' this situation?

Ask people in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, etc how well most of this is working out for them. Ask the refugees.

In defense of Ms Clinton, from every report I've seen, she did make an effort to try and get money and logistical help after the fall of Ghadafi, but there was little interest from much of the administration to get further involved
There's almost no way to anticipate the abdication of responsibility by both the French and the British that occurred -- largely because of national political issues they scaled back (likely in fear of something bad happening)
So, 'No' I'm not blaming her. There was an understanding among allies (UK, France and US) that the Brits and French would take the lead. It didn't happen.
But, I will note, that she did seem to oppose the Arab Spring Movement in Egypt. She made statements in support of Mubarak. Something that kind of contradicts your statement about her belief in self-determination.
There is also zero evidence of her doing anything to support movements for self-determination in Bahrain or anywhere in the Gulf States.

Curious, did you/do you support the Invasion of Iraq?
What about the ousting of Mubarak? Do you support Al-Sisi, the strongman who rules Egypt, with our support, more ruthlessly than Mubarak did?
How do you feel about what happened in Bahrain?

On the record, I supported ousting Hussein. Not so much for him, but because the legacy that were his sons made the situation untenable. I did not support the invasion because everything I read had suggested that they didn't really seem to have a game plan beyond ousting him.
I opposed Libya for two reasons; 1. There seemed to be an interest on the part of everyone on regime change and that was it. The opposition was fragmented and it didn't seem to have any day after thoughts. 2. The history of Libya suggested there would be serious problems when he was gone. -- though in fairness, this was a rather weak argument given that history began at 1968 and worked backwards. 30 years is a really long time and a lot of change has happened.
Obama is correct in his assessment on Libya. But, that's more the fault of the British and French because they wanted the lead in it. They said they would handle it.
Which was fine. But you break it, you own it. They didn't.

As to Syria, I don't support regime change because the region is such a fricking mess before everything started. The opposition is a fragmented group and I don't trust the Saudis who seem all hell bent on forcing out every non-Sunni government/organization in the region.

(below)
I would also add on the issue of terrorism, that it's a more complicated situation with ISIL then they are terrorists - because they are not using terror 'just because'.
The best read on that comes from Graeme Wood
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1014&pid=1410187
I'd explain, but I prefer to let others read for themselves.
It is a good read on what makes ISIL tick
Not saying it strengthens my position or weakens yours. It's just a pretty good read and I think you'll enjoy reading it (for the information)

My original post may have seemed dismissive and overly antagonistic to your position
I apologize for that -- because it probably was and that's not right
This post may have come across that way as well -- I did reread and try and remove a few less pleasant or seemingly 'Thou art beneath me.' lines because it's not my intention to demean or ridicule your position

I think I do take a fairly nuanced position on these things and I believe you probably do as well.
These kinds of disagreements are more difficult on a computer than say, in a bar or restaurant because they involve typing and no way to get a good back and forth

Have a nice day or evening

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
29. Better than absolute national collapse.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:11 PM
Apr 2016

Also? Using "self-determination" as an excuse for heavy-handed interventionism is fucking dumb.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
36. I read the article.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:27 PM
Apr 2016

It's the DU comments I find repulsive.

The argument continues to be we would be so much better off if murderous barbarians were in charge - you know, like back in September 2001.

And most everyone understands the jihadist movement that originated with the toppling of the US puppet Shah of Iran, and the Mujahideen against Russia in Afghanistan - this is the source of ISIL, not Hillary!

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
37. Sit down
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:43 PM
Apr 2016

First off, the toppling f the Shah and the Mujahadeen movement in Afghanistan have pretty much nothing to do with each other, except in the sense that the US was involved (Some of that heavy-handed interventionism I was mentioning to you.) Even that connection is circumstantial.

While there is some outgrowth of the Mujahadeen movement into the rest of the middle east, the majority of it is homegrown, and the connections are mostly "common cause' - sort of like international communism, it's a bunch of people looking to some of the same heroes for a variety of often very divergent, eminently local reasons.

Daesh exists as it does in Syria and Iraq as a direct consequence of the Iraq War. A war that Hillary clinton not only voted for, but heavily advocated, and supported for over a decade. No, she is not the only one with that on her shoulders, but none of them are running for president. Last time one of them did, it likely cost him the election.

Daesh also now has a solid foothold in Libya because the United States, under advisement from the clinton-led state department, engaged in a plan to destroy the nation's leadership and military, then abandon it to its own devices. That is directly the responsibility of Secretary clinton and President Obama - her for pushing it, him for accepting it.

It is our heavy-handed interventionism in both nations that created the current situations in both, and Hillary Clinton was a feature of both of those decisions.

DhhD

(4,695 posts)
83. Saddam Hussein's own people were getting ready to remove him in a coup.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:36 PM
Apr 2016
http://www.democracynow.org/2000/1/24/is_saddam_hussein_a_creation_of


I remember several news stories of American business leaders leaving Iraq ahead of the first war with Iraq in 1990, saying that Saddam's own people were planning a coup. It could not be carried out due to the crippling sanctions against the Iraqi people during the Clinton Administration.
 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
38. good grief -- foreign military interventions is how "self-determination" is realized?
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:44 PM
Apr 2016

where did you find that -- the thirdway dictionary?

 

Reter

(2,188 posts)
46. As long as they don't bother us or behead Christians I'm fine with dictators over what replaced them
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:32 PM
Apr 2016

ISIS is far worse.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
48. "Far worse."
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 09:05 PM
Apr 2016

Keep telling me how bad ISIS, ISIL, Daesh, and Hillary are.

Iran/Iraq War

During the eight years between Iraq’s formal declaration of war on September 22, 1980, and Iran’s acceptance of a cease-fire with effect on July 20, 1988, at the very least half a million and possibly twice as many troops were killed on both sides, at least half a million became permanent invalids, some 228 billion dollars were directly expended, and more than 400 billion dollars of damage (mostly to oil facilities, but also to cities) was inflicted, mostly by artillery barrages. Aside from that, the war was inconsequential: having won Iranian recognition of exclusive Iraqi sovereignty over the Shatt-el-Arab River (into which the Tigris and Euphrates combine, forming Iraq’s best outlet to the sea), in 1988 Saddam Hussein surrendered that gain when in need of Iran’s neutrality in anticipation of the 1991 Gulf War.

http://www.history.com/topics/iran-iraq-war

Hussein gasses the Kurds

The attack killed between 3,200 and 5,000 people and injured 7,000 to 10,000 more, most of them civilians. Thousands more died of complications, diseases, and birth defects in the years after the attack. The incident, which has been officially defined by Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal as a genocidal massacre against the Kurdish people in Iraq, was and still remains the largest chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Lockerbie bombing

Pan Am Flight 103 was a regularly scheduled Pan Am transatlantic flight from Frankfurt to Detroit, via London and New York. On 21 December 1988, N739PA, the aircraft operating the transatlantic leg of the route, was destroyed by a terrorist bomb, killing all 243 passengers and 16 crew, in what became known as the Lockerbie bombing.[3] Large sections of the aircraft crashed onto residential areas of Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 11 more people on the ground.


In 2003, Gaddafi accepted responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and paid compensation to the families of the victims, although he maintained that he had never given the order for the attack. During the Libyan Civil War in 2011, a former government official claimed that the Libyan leader had personally ordered the bombing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103

September 11 attacks

Four passenger airliners—which all departed from airports on the U.S. East Coast bound for California—were hijacked by 19 al-Qaeda terrorists to be flown into buildings. Two of the planes, American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175, were crashed into the North and South towers, respectively, of the World Trade Center complex in New York City. Within an hour and 42 minutes, both 110-story towers collapsed, with debris and the resulting fires causing partial or complete collapse of all other buildings in the World Trade Center complex, including the 47-story 7 World Trade Center tower, as well as significant damage to ten other large surrounding structures. A third plane, American Airlines Flight 77, was crashed into the Pentagon (the headquarters of the United States Department of Defense) in Arlington County, Virginia, leading to a partial collapse in the Pentagon's western side. The fourth plane, United Airlines Flight 93, initially was steered toward Washington, D.C., but crashed into a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, after its passengers tried to overcome the hijackers. In total, the attacks claimed the lives of 2,996 people (including the 19 hijackers) and caused at least $10 billion in property and infrastructure damage and $3 trillion in total costs. It was the deadliest incident for firefighters and law enforcement officers in the history of the United States, with 343 and 72 killed respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
93. Ah, you are reading the spin that was pushed by PNAC and the ultra right.
Tue Apr 12, 2016, 10:43 AM
Apr 2016

Was he weird? Yes.
Did he drop acid? Yes.
Was he building armies to attack his neighbors? No.
Did he threaten US allies? No.
Did he have a huge pot of gold? Yes.
Did he have a huger collection of black gold? Yes.
Was he starting a ME currency exchange for oil bonds and trading that did not involve the dollar? Yes.

Was the whole purpose to fuck him over, destroy a functioning peaceful country that had decent and fair control over several potentially violent sects (who hated and opposed each other?) Yes.

Read some history. It might help with your understanding.

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
99. No, you are regurgitating the crap that they tried to feed us all.
Tue Apr 12, 2016, 11:29 AM
Apr 2016

Get your head out of cable or local news. Read international sources, especially Europe's where their idea of free press is actually (wait for it) Free.

It is not your fault. If you were forced to listen to Rush and Sean, or Billo and Ann every day as your only source, you would be sounding just like you do. Have you ever traveled to the middle east? Europe? Asia? Africa? I have, and i must tell you. the truth on the ground is way different than what we are fed here. Our news is so insular, so self-aggrandizing, so myopic and so controlled by 6 corporations, I am shocked that there are not more people like you. Good at heart, bus misinformed.

Xolodno

(6,395 posts)
12. Long story short.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:07 PM
Apr 2016

Europe wanted us to foot the bill again for their mess.

Don't remember where, but read that a number of European leaders have come to their senses and realized, they can't give token assistance and expect the US to whip out its check book and write in blood anymore to fix a mess left over from European Colonialism.

There are bigger shit storms brewing in South-East Asia and its time Europe got their act together.

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
94. THERE WAS NO MESS until we intervened!
Tue Apr 12, 2016, 10:46 AM
Apr 2016

We created a huge problem where there was none.
We prepared the ground for ISIL and other violent groups where there used to be a functioning, stable government.

Umbral18

(105 posts)
17. Lack of cost controls in the ACA?
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:44 PM
Apr 2016

Failure to R̶e̶p̶u̶b̶l̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ Idiot proof your signature legislation even though the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress?

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
22. First they stole the 2000 election
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 06:49 PM
Apr 2016

Then they let 9/11 happen

Then they rigged the next elections with voting machines

Then they invaded Iraq

Then they crashed the economy

I kinda sorta expected Obama to see through the republican fog. Alas, he got lost in the fog.

noretreatnosurrender

(1,890 posts)
27. Worst Mistake
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:03 PM
Apr 2016

in my view was not holding the people in the Bush administration accountable for torture and then compounding that mistake by using drones to go after American citizens with no due process. Letting the banksters get away with their crimes was a real doozy too.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
28. they also blamed France and Britain--"here, stick your dick in the same mousetrap we are!"
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:04 PM
Apr 2016

later: "why did THEY make me do that?!"

callous taoboy

(4,585 posts)
35. Domestically, his continuation of Bush education policies.
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 07:23 PM
Apr 2016

NCLB, Arne, RTTT. All utter bullshit that has decimated the climate of education and fattened the wallets of the test makers / scorers.
A travesty.

Aristus

(66,377 posts)
47. Beats the hell out of Dubyah's sniggering: "Gee, I cain't think o' nothin' I did rawng!"
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 08:56 PM
Apr 2016

President Obama is a stand-up guy...

PWPippin

(213 posts)
50. My question is why President Obama chose the lack of a plan after intervening in Libya . . .
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 09:53 PM
Apr 2016

. . . as his worst mistake. We so often hear he's playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. What's his strategy here? Admitting this will have an effect on his legacy. Admitting this could be used against Hillary since it is known she convinced him, against many other advisors, to intervene. Does he hope his taking ultimate responsibility, as he must, will absolve her somehow? There are so many other issues, as stated above, that he could have pointed to. I didn't hear the interview and wonder did he offer this bit of soul baring or was he asked? Just really curious.

 

DemocracyDirect

(708 posts)
51. I suspect what is he saying is his mistake is trusting certain people...
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 10:08 PM
Apr 2016

... who probably convinced him that decapitating Libya was the right thing to do.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

That certain people would make sure that Libya became a model democracy.

Not understanding that was NEVER their plan for Libya.

 

fbc

(1,668 posts)
52. I guess he can't admit that appointing DWS to head of the DNC was his worst error
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 10:19 PM
Apr 2016

It lead to majorities for the republicans in both houses and complete obstruction of his agenda.

Corey_Baker08

(2,157 posts)
58. I Think Foreign Military Intervention That Helped Grow ISIS..
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 11:20 PM
Apr 2016

Is A Hell Of Alot More Significant Than A Domestic Political Party Appointment

moondust

(19,984 posts)
61. Tim Kaine was DNC chair in 2010.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 02:57 AM
Apr 2016

Appointed by PBO in 2009.

Because of the importance of the 2010 midterms in setting the stage for redistricting/gerrymandering, somebody's hair should have been on fire at the DNC working to GOTV. I don't remember hearing a peep out of them.

Third Doctor

(1,574 posts)
53. I think
Sun Apr 10, 2016, 10:21 PM
Apr 2016

his support for TPP and chained CPI for social security should be on the list. These really disappointed me.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
79. I disagree.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:23 PM
Apr 2016

The carnage of the attacks itself, the tremendous scale of the human misery that followed, and its role in the destabilization of Africa (e.g. unrest in Mali and the coup in Birkina Faso) easily place it in the top ten.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
101. I understand
Fri Apr 22, 2016, 05:33 PM
Apr 2016

But much of what you assert would probably have occurred in some sense anyway. The region is very unstable and it is difficult to connect action with result.

Democat

(11,617 posts)
64. You are a broken record and many are sick of hearing it
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 08:59 AM
Apr 2016

Go back to the Primaries forum and trash the Democratic Party if you must.

This is a thread about Obama, no Hillary or Bernie bullshit.

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
67. Gee, lemme try to remember who was Sec. of State at that time,
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 10:17 AM
Apr 2016

responsible for planning foreign affairs.

I suppose, now that the country is run by mega-wealthy corporation owners, the country is being run like a corporation. Screw up and move up. That's how people like Carly Fiorina end up as CEOs. So the Sec. of State who screwed up Libya is getting promoted to chief executive. Just great. As long as the owners get richer, the promotions will keep coming.

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
70. Mitch McConnell's day one comments spoke to that
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 12:40 PM
Apr 2016

Make Obama a one-term president, whatever the cost. That Obama was able to avert a hoped-for monumental train wreck in the face of unprecedented obstructionism could possibly be the hallmark to his legacy.

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
88. Lybia, Syria, ...
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:18 PM
Apr 2016

Continuing Bush's legacy.

Failure to jail any Wall Street criminals. A few on my list.

surfer2009

(10 posts)
97. Mistakes
Tue Apr 12, 2016, 11:15 AM
Apr 2016

What Obama and his team did in past years in some countries is really good to say that many of them are Obama's mistakes.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x43wvh1

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