Trump's obsession with WW2 generals strikes sour note with historians

[Lodestar]

Source: Reuters

Presidential candidate Donald Trump admires the late Douglas MacArthur and George Patton, both World War Two generals. They were winners, unpredictable, and not especially nice guys, he says in campaign speeches. But Trump's pledge to imitate their styles sets modern-day military experts on edge.

Although unquestionably in the pantheon of U.S. military heroes, MacArthur and Patton were also controversial figures remembered by historians as flamboyant self-promoters. The commander in the Pacific, MacArthur was eventually fired by President Harry Truman for speaking out against Truman's policies in the Korean War, which followed World War Two. Before Patton died in December 1945, he questioned the need to remove Nazis from key posts in postwar German politics and society.

As Trump edges closer to the Republican nomination for the Nov. 8 election, he likely will face more pointed questions about the policy ideas behind his sweeping statements. His main Republican rivals Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio have offered far more details about their foreign policy visions as has Hillary Clinton, front-runner for the Democratic nomination.

Born in 1946, a year after World War Two ended, Trump often praises MacArthur and Patton for the blunt ways he says they commanded respect. "George Patton was one of the roughest guys, he would talk rough to his men," Trump told an audience last week in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. "His men would die for him," Trump added. "We don't have that anymore." He said Patton would wipe out Islamic State without hesitation were he still in command.


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-generals-idUSKCN0VY2XJ

[jtuck004]

1. We can't do it with professional soldiers, need a loudmouth real estate swindler from New York city?

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[houston16revival]

2. +1

[sarge43]

3. When he was dodging STDs, he felt like an 11Bravo

That should be good enough

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

4. Wearing a poncho over the helmet should have kept him safe.

But I'd award him the Blonde Star, with "V" for Venereal.

[Gabi Hayes]

32. follow the rubber line to your seat, and

prepare yourself for an interval of simulated exhilaration

[Jenny_92808]

5. Trump is dangerous

a super predator.

[mpcamb]

43. He may have read his last book in high school at New York Military Academy. which would be

dangerous for all of us.
His love of things military could stem from that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Military_Academy

("New York Military Academy (NYMA) is a private boarding school in the rural village of Cornwall-on-Hudson, 60 miles (97 km) north of New York City, and one of the oldest military schools in the United States. Originally a boys' school, it became coeducational in 1975. On March 3, 2015, NYMA filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, facing serious financial difficulties from low enrollment. Instead of opening for the fall semester in September 2015, NYMA closed and was auctioned to a group of Chinese investors who reopened the school in November.&quot

[Kip Humphrey]

6. "flamboyant self-promoters" appeal to tRump? Really?

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. I'm surprised he picked those two...

...said no one, ever.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. He may have been a self-promotor...

but in his defense, Patton and his men backed it up.

[redwitch]

7. Military coup if he is elected.

That is my prediction.

[roamer65]

14. We don't do it that way in the USA.

November 22, 1963 is how a coup d'état is done in the USA. An outright military coup in this country would equal civil war.

[redwitch]

17. Good point. nt

[JackRiddler]

31. They won't be so dramatic.

It doesn't require the same level of "message."

Dead in bed, drinking, routine prescription pill overdose.

[Botany]

8. Yes and Ike fired Patton for trying to whip up WW III and Truman shit canned MacArthur for .....

.... getting China into the Korean war after not following his orders.

[davidthegnome]

9. It was before my time, but...

Wasn't MacArthur the one that wanted to invade China with... was it 50,000 men or so? Against the Chinese army that was about a million strong? I wasn't there, but one of my favorite people (before he passed away some years ago) used to talk about it. He had friends there, back in the day, fighting in the Korean war... and many of them were expecting to end up dead when MacArthur led them into China. Fortunately it never happened, but...

I don't know, maybe someone who knows more about this can enlighten me.

[Botany]

11. I wasn't born then either but the history was ....

Truman had told MacArthur to stay back from the Chinese border so as not to
bring China into the war but MacArthur thought he was God's warrior and he went
on a pressed the matter which:

1) Brought the Chinese into the war
b) Got MacArthur fired
iii) had the war go on for another few years.

BTW We had all but won the war until China joined the party.

This kind of like the French telling us not to invade Iraq in 2003
because the blow back might be awful and so w & Cheney didn't
listen and now we have ISIS.

[davidthegnome]

13. Thanks

So, basically, MacArthur, who is seen as this great war hero by so many... deliberately disobeyed his Commander in Chief by instigating a war with China. Some people might call that treason.

[Botany]

19. He had already been warned by Truman well before his firing that he had to follow orders ....

.... however to many on the right back in America Truman was seen as the bad guy
and Mac as the good guy because he wanted to carry the fight to "the commies."
America had just been through a nasty long war in WW II, Truman had seen real
combat in WW I, and he did want a long an un-winnable war in China.


1995 HBO film on Truman when you have two hours

[lark]

10. Everythng he does and says strikes a sour note with me.

He will bankrupt our country, destroy the middle class in ever more definitive ways like ending minimum wage, unemployment insurance, unions plus the ACA and steal everything he can for himself and his cronies. That's all he cares about and his total mission. He's even more dangerous than Ted Cruz and that takes some doing.

[tazkcmo]

12. As a soldier

I wouldn't follow this hollow suit, chicken hawk bag of wind to a free, all you can eat buffet. Real leaders lead from the front so get your ass out there you rich pig!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

24. Those old generals followed FDR's leadership.

And I bet many of them did not like "that man" as Commander-in-Chief. They thought he was a socialist, a traitor to his class.

They, like you, like most soldiers, will follow whoever is CIC. Maybe with some griping, but they'll follow. Even Trump.

Wait, you would turn down an all-you-can-eat buffet? You are like no soldier I ever served with!

[tazkcmo]

25. lol

Oh, I'd eat the buffet but only out of the knowledge that every soldier's meal could be their last! And it's free food! Hell yeah I'd eat it!

As for FDR, I was referring to leadership by the Generals, not the CiC. Trump would be fragged right after Pass In Review!

[tclambert]

15. Odds are he can't name many other WWII generals.

Eisenhower, maybe. Bradley? Mark Clark? Stilwell? Ridgway? Marshall?

[MillennialDem]

16. I can name one general he wouldn't like

Heinz Guderian who had the guts to get into shouting matches with Hitler (who was being a fool like Trump and Guderian would call him out for it. both times Hitler sent him "on vacation&quot

[Lithos]

20. He'd also like Gen. Fredendall

Was the general which allowed Passerine Pass to be a disaster from his leadership from a hotel well behind the front. To a man his subordinate generals detested him for his distant micromanagement. Sacked by Eisenhower on the advice by Bradley and replaced by Patton.

Gen. MacArthur was also a disaster and a failure. And he is a lot like Trump. Got his start thru family ties, vainglorious and in the end, an unmitigated disaster. The son of a famous father who won a Medal of Honor in the Civil War, he received very choice and preferential treatment. His career was essentially side-lined due to a nasty affair in 1933 and his many arguments with President Roosevelt. Left to go back to the Philippines where he assumed the position of Field Marshall of the Philippine army. During his 6 years, the Philippine army was never developed. During WW 2 his bad generalship allowed a smaller Japanese Army to corner and defeat a larger American-Filipino army. Ran with his personal gold supplies at the last minute leaving Gen. Stilwell to surrender to the Japanese. Accepted a Medal of Honor despite his very poor and dishonorable record. Forced several large and unnecessary battles in the 1944/45 campaign in the Philippines, culminating with the wholly unnecessary battle of Manilla (he had to return, don't you know) which resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians.

During the Korean War, while he did come up with the idea of Inchon, the subsequent sluggish pace of the post landing operations all but negated the value of the strategic surprise. Tried to resign before being fired by Truman over his insubordination which almost led to World War 3.

Patton himself was a brilliant general who lacked strategic sense and whose behavior almost got the Western Allies into war with Russia in 1945. While I do not believe it, the fact that conspiracy theories existed that he was killed because of his confrontational manner show just how bad this was.

L-

[Johnyawl]

23. Good analysis Lithos...

...I assume you meant Kasserine Pass in that first sentence;

Eisenhower relieved Patton of command for slapping that soldier, and kept him sidelined as a decoy until after D-Day. He did not sent him home as he had done with Fredendall and other incompetent senior commanders. It was Bradley that talked Eisenhower into giving Patton a second chance, and it was Bradley that kept Patton on a short leash which allowed Patton to exercise his brilliance in the field. Unfortunately Patton had nothing to do in peace time but run his big mouth. He was deliberately trying to provoke war with the Soviet Union.

[Lithos]

34. Yep

Patton was best on a short leash... Bradley and Eisenhower were the big talents in the west.

[GP6971]

27. It was ""Skinny" Wainwright

who was left to surrender the PI. Vinegar Joe Stillwell commanded the China, Burma & India theatre. And my guess is Trump wouldn't even recognize their names.

[Lithos]

33. You are right

Should have double checked...

[GP6971]

35. No problem

I've found that there is no middle ground concerning MacArthur...one either hates or loves him. I personally thought he as an egotistical bastard that didn't care for the troops.

[metalbot]

38. MacArthur was a very flawed man

But I think I could argue several points of your paragraph about him:

"Gen. MacArthur was also a disaster and a failure. And he is a lot like Trump. Got his start thru family ties, vainglorious and in the end, an unmitigated disaster. The son of a famous father who won a Medal of Honor in the Civil War, he received very choice and preferential treatment. His career was essentially side-lined due to a nasty affair in 1933 and his many arguments with President Roosevelt. Left to go back to the Philippines where he assumed the position of Field Marshall of the Philippine army. During his 6 years, the Philippine army was never developed. During WW 2 his bad generalship allowed a smaller Japanese Army to corner and defeat a larger American-Filipino army. Ran with his personal gold supplies at the last minute leaving Gen. Stilwell to surrender to the Japanese. Accepted a Medal of Honor despite his very poor and dishonorable record. Forced several large and unnecessary battles in the 1944/45 campaign in the Philippines, culminating with the wholly unnecessary battle of Manilla (he had to return, don't you know) which resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians."

1. Yes - he was sent to the Philippines and made Field Marshall (a position where he was employed by the Philippines, not by the US Army). He was restored to US military command only once it was obvious that we were going to war with Japan. MacArthur was responsible for raising and training a Filipino army, but was never given any funds or equipment to do so, since the Lend-Lease program was diverting all military equipment to England in a program that the Philippines was not eligible for. His ability to train the soldiers he had was hampered by the fact that the Philippines effectively had no national language - the 8,000 or so troops that he started with spoke 50+ dialects of 6 major languages. Most of his NCO's were illiterate.

2. Military planners had wargamed repeatedly on what to do in case of a Japanese invasion. The plan they came up with was "Plan Orange", which called for a retreat to Bataan, and then to run a delaying action for long enough to be reinforced by the US Navy. The fact that MacArthur was able to get his soldiers into Bataan mostly in once piece is actually an amazing feat of generalship, one which Japanese commanders had high praise for after the war. MacArthur did screw up here from a supply perspective, since he also attempted to stop the landings on Linggayen, and too many of his supplies were in Central Luzon rather than in Bataan. That being said, it's unlikely that the additional supplies would have had much of an impact, since the US never planned a rescue mission. I'd also point out that during the entire invasion of the Philippines, the Japanese had complete air superiority (though this is in part due to some serious incompetence at the level of MacArthur and his peers during the 16 hours following Pearl Harbor).

3. I'm not sure how you would argue that the battle for Manila was unnecessary. The Japanese Army had no intent of defending the city, but the Naval commander who was left in charge changed the plan and vowed to defend Manila "to the last man". There's no siege that the Japanese commander would have surrendered to that wouldn't have also wiped out most of the civilian population.

4. You don't address it in your post, but during WW1, MacArthur was almost universally loved by his men (in contrast to the Bataan survivors). Unlike most of his peers, he led from the front, leading troops across "no-man's land".

MacArthur was a fascinating, complicated, and deeply flawed man. He was a shameless self-promoter, and had a controlling mother who promoted him even more than Douglas did himself (the letters that "Pinky" Douglas wrote to Pershing are actually pretty funny to read). Your descriptions of him as a "disaster" and a "failure" aren't even close to accurate without honing in on very specific aspects of his life while ignoring others.

[Lithos]

39. Great response

First, I appreciate the time it took to answer. I truly love history and truly love others who appreciate it as well. Thank you my friend.

Some comments...

MacArthur had several main issues. He was indecisive, tried to appease two different politics (The US President and the Filipino President), and failed to appreciate the strengths and aggressiveness of his enemy. And once the enemy attacked, he failed to alter his assumptions.

"Plan Orange" - MacArthur was rather pointed in his opinion of "Plan Orange" as defeatist and so departed from it to a "defend everywhere plan". See "RAINBOW-5" (below). He chose this approach to try and appease the Filipino president. He based this on several misbeliefs. First, he believed the Japanese would not attack until late April 1942 which would give him time to train the Filipino Army. Second, your statement that he would receive supplies which were diverted by lend-lease is true, but he still believed he had time despite that initial push back. Third, even when the Japanese attacked, he tried to implement RAINBOW-5 even though several of his own people had "correctly" determined that the Filipino Army was not ready with many soldiers going into battle without firing a single shot and having inadequate equipment.

(see: http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_06.htm)

So, the implementation of "Plan Orange" was by default, delayed, and failed to concentrate sufficient supplies and resources to provide the defense and denial of strategic resources as required by the plan.

For the record, "Plan Orange" was a strategic plan beyond just the defense of the Philippines but rather part of a strategic plan for the whole Pacific War for which the defense of the Philippines was the preservation of an endpoint base for the US attack on the Japanese. MacArthur's deviance put into jeopardy the whole strategy of the Pacific War.

*****

The Battle of Manila was unnecessary. It and the whole island of Luzon could have easily been bypassed, but MacArthur needed to "return" and this ego set the stage for the battle. Again MacArthur's determination to avoid decisive action thru failure to commit US troops and US artillery/air power was the problem. Not to excuse the rape and killing by the Japanese, the vast majority of civilian deaths was not by the IJN, but by the indiscriminate use of artillery, naval firepower and air power in a very dense urban zone.

*****

During WWI - MacArthur may have led from the "front", but was far from beloved by his troops in WW II. He earned the phrase "Dugout Doug" from troops who attributed his defensive behavior to a lack of physical courage.

*****

I do agree that I'm being very harsh to expose the worst aspects of MacArthur as I do believe him to be a total disaster, especially compared to such great men as Nimitz, Halsey, King, Spruance, and others in the Pacific and CBI theaters. However, a proper study of him and the general environment leading up to it is a very nuanced.

[Kaleva]

44. MacArthur as Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers in occupied Japan did very well

[world wide wally]

21. Don't forget, Trump gets all the history he knows from movies and the shows on TV

Just like most voters

[tazkcmo]

26. Yup

He thinks Hogan's Heroes is a documentary.

[olddad56]

22. my guess is that he is a big fan of professional wrestling also.

[Brother Buzz]

28. I guess Trump glossed over the part about MacArthur and Patton's involvement in the Bonus Army mess.

Or maybe he did read about it and did not care. This may an indicator how Trump would deal with the veterans in the future.

[annabanana]

41. He never read a goddam thing about it.. His knowledge is

100% Hollywood.

[sarisataka]

29. One key difference

Between the Generals and Trump regardless of their merits and flaws, the generals actually served.

They got off their asses, left their privileged lives behind and went to combat. Trump stayed home and went to parties.

[longship]

30. Brig. General Anthony C. McAuliffe responds to Trump!

"NUTS!"

Some history of Bastogne and the Battle of the Bulge, and yes McAuliffe:
Anthony McAuliffe

And yup! I imagine that he would call Donald Trump nuts, too.

[Octafish]

37. Patton was no Mob boss.

Hitler was and Trump wants to be one.

[annabanana]

40. He has a child's understanding of international affairs . .

The man is a walking example of arrested development.

[pfitz59]

42. MacArthur and Japanese reconstruction

MacArthur did have one shining success. His postwar actions as Viceroy of Japan. He directed the drafting of the new Japanese Constitution and election of new government which endorsed Unions and women's rights. He was downright Socialist in his approach.