Feds find Fiat Chrysler gear shifters can confuse drivers
Source: AP
By TOM KRISHER
DETROIT (AP) Electronic gear shifters on some newer Fiat Chrysler SUVs and cars are so confusing that drivers have exited the vehicles with the engines running and while they are still in gear, causing crashes and some serious injuries, U.S. safety investigators have determined.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, in documents posted during the weekend, has doubled the number of vehicles involved in an investigation of the problem, but it stopped short of seeking a recall. The agency found more than 100 crashes and over a dozen injuries, mostly in Jeep Grand Cherokees.
Agency tests found that operating the center console shift lever "is not intuitive and provides poor tactile and visual feedback to the driver, increasing the potential for unintended gear selection," investigators wrote in the documents. They upgraded the probe to an engineering analysis, which is a step closer to a recall. NHTSA will continue to gather information and seek a recall if necessary, spokesman Gordon Trowbridge said.
The investigation could determine just how much automakers will be able to change the way cars operate when they introduce new technology, and how far they can stray from conventional ways of controlling vehicles that drivers are accustomed to.
FULL story at link.
Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/2f228a3abf2e44ea8ef1388448d09329/feds-find-fiat-chrysler-gear-shifters-can-confuse-drivers
navarth
(5,927 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)In the vehicles, drivers pull the shift lever forward or backward to select gears and the shifter doesn't move along a track like in most cars. A light shows which gear is selected, but to get from Drive to Park, drivers must push the lever forward three times. The gearshift does not have notches that match up with the gear you want to shift into, and it moves back to a centered position after the driver picks a gear.
You can't mess with something fundamental like this and not expect it to cause problems. Not saying you can't add new tech to a car, but, you need to build in fail safe modes when you deviate to this degree to catch the inevitable problems.
navarth
(5,927 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)who mapped the ESC key as a command menu. To them it was intuitive, since they wrote the software. To the rest of the PC using world it was confusing.
Demonaut
(8,918 posts)automatically when I take my foot off the brake
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)protects the car and the driver from an error caused by an ambiguous situation. Mine does the same thing unless I force it into "neutral" by holding the shifter to the left for 3 seconds.
Warpy
(111,269 posts)but the main problem here is drivers exiting cars while they're still running.
Even if they've shifted into park, that running car is an invitation to thieves, or worse, a curious kid.
That adds up to driver stupidity, IMO.
Certainly an unattended car with the motor running is dangerous, but there are times when I step out of my car with the motor running that is not, such as when I stop in my driveway to get my mail from the mailbox, or when I am opening a garage door.
Shifters should clearly indicate what gear they are in.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)The push button doesn't stop the engine if the shifter isn't in park. A key will always kill the engine, no matter the gear.
Anybody that buys a new car and doesn't take the time to learn it's features is asking for trouble.
Roland99
(53,342 posts)The Chrysler 200/300 and the Jeep Grand Cherokee (which I do really like) were hard to figure out if I was in neutral, drive, reverse, etc.
It's not a mechanical position. Pull back too far and one is in Neutral or Drive instead of Reverse. It was rather annoying.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Mosby
(16,318 posts)You put it in park by pushing the knob up three times and then when you hit the on/off button it doesn't actually kill the engine if it's not in "park"
Really bad design IMO.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)jmowreader
(50,559 posts)This is what it looks like:
The car has a pushbutton engine run/stop switch rather than a key, and this weird-ass gear shifter. If you want to turn the engine off, you have to push the shifter forward three times to put it in Park, then push the run/stop button. If you don't shift it into Park, the engine won't go off.
I'm a little surprised that with all the "retro" shit they like to put on cars these days, no one has ever tried to resurrect the pushbutton shifters everyone was working on in the 1950s.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)The shift lever in the Prius has a "centered" spot. When you put it into Reverse or Drive, you pull the lever into that position and then it snaps back to centered when you release it. There is no way to determine which gear you're in solely by looking at the shift lever.
In my daughters case, she pulled into the driveway after class just as my wife sent her a text asking her to stop at the store. After a minute of texts back and forth, my daughter stepped on the gas to pull back out of the driveway. She thought she'd put it in reverse already, but the car was still in drive from when she'd pulled in.
To be fair, it's not particularly difficult to check your gear on the Prius. There's an electronic indicator on the top of the dash that tells you EXACTLY what gear you're in. But if you're in a hurry and you're not looking at your dash (she was looking over her shoulder to back out) there's no tactile indicator of your gear selection. With a traditional shift lever, most people can determine the gear without even looking simply by feeling the levers position. Because she'd only had the Prius two weeks, she hadn't adapted to the lack of feedback yet and learned to check the dash.
Didn't even scratch the paint on the Prius, but it put a hell of a dent in my garage.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)My Leaf (an EV) has a similar shifter, BUT there are lights that indicate what gear you are in. There are four modes: Park, Reverse, Forward and Neutral. Each has a light on the shifter and a big letter on the instrument cluster.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The shifter has three positions. Up is drive. Down is reverse. And right is "B" mode, which simulates downshifting for long downhill grades. You can also pull the shifter left, between Drive and Reverse, to pull the car completley out of gear. No matter which position you shift it into, the shifter returns to center when you release it. The selection indicator is on the speedometer cluster, and not on the shifter.
Park isn't on the shifter at all, but is a completely seperate button on the console next to the shifter.
benld74
(9,904 posts)DETROIT (AP) Electronic gear shifters on some newer Fiat Chrysler SUVs and cars are so confusing that drivers have exited the vehicles with the engines running and while they are still in gear, causing crashes and serious injuries, U.S. safety investigators have determined.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, in documents posted during the weekend, has doubled the number of vehicles involved in an investigation of the problem, but it stopped short of seeking a recall. The agency found more than 100 crashes and over a dozen injuries, mostly in Jeep Grand Cherokees.
Agency tests found that operating the center console shift lever "is not intuitive and provides poor tactile and visual feedback to the driver, increasing the potential for unintended gear selection," investigators wrote in the documents. They upgraded the probe to an engineering analysis, which is a step closer to a recall. NHTSA will continue to gather information and seek a recall if necessary, a spokesman said.
The investigation could determine just how much automakers can change the way cars operate when they introduce new technology, and how far they can stray from conventional ways of controlling vehicles that drivers are accustomed to.
Jake Fisher, director of auto testing for Consumer Reports, expects more problems and investigations as automakers continue to roll out new electronic controls that are unfamiliar to drivers. "I think the manufacturers need to be much more responsible as they try these new technologies," he said.
The government's probe now covers more than 856,000 vehicles including the popular Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV from the 2014 and 2015 model years and the 2012 through 2014 Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 sedans with 3.6-liter V6 engines.
In the vehicles, drivers pull the shift lever forward or backward to select gears and the shifter doesn't move along a track like in most cars. A light shows which gear is selected, but to get from Drive to Park, drivers must push the lever forward three times. The gearshift does not have notches that match up with the gear you want to shift into, and it moves back to a centered position after the driver picks a gear.
The vehicles sound a chime and issue a dashboard warning if the driver's door is opened while they are not in Park. But investigators found that the push-button start-stop feature doesn't shut off the engine if the vehicles aren't in Park, increasing the risk of the vehicles rolling away after drivers have exited.
"This function does not protect drivers who intentionally leave the engine running or drivers who do not recognize that the engine continues to run after an attempted shut-off," investigators wrote.
Thus far, the investigation has found 314 complaints, 121 crashes and 30 injuries from the problem. Three drivers reported fractured pelvic bones, while four others needed to be hospitalized with a ruptured bladder, fractured kneecap, or severe leg trauma.
Fiat Chrysler says it is cooperating in the probe. The company changed the shifters in the 2016 Grand Cherokee and 2015 Charger and 300 sedans so they function more like people are used to. But FCA said it did so to increase customer satisfaction and not for safety concerns.
One driver, in Atkinson, New Hampshire, complained that in November of last year, her 2014 Grand Cherokee began traveling in reverse with no driver inside. The SUV crossed a street, crashed into a mailbox and rolled up a driveway. The driver wrote that she tried to get back into the Jeep but was knocked to the ground and it rolled over her legs and injured her. The Jeep eventually stopped after hitting a fence. Drivers are not identified in the NHTSA complaint database.
"The shift knob is a real problem," wrote another driver from Enumclaw, Washington, who reported two unintentional roll-away incidents in a 2015 Grand Cherokee. "I am not a complainer, however this is a major safety issue. It terrifies me to drive this vehicle."
Fiat Chrysler is not alone with the tricky shifters. Fisher says BMW and Mercedes-Benz have similar gearshifts. He said the government has a thin line to walk between stifling innovation and keeping people safe.
"I think the best thing for consumers isn't that legislation comes," he said. "The best thing is that automakers really do not start adding features that are really confusing to people and cause accidents."
Mosby
(16,318 posts)I do not want or need flat screens or built in cell phones in my car, it's just more stuff that can break.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)The best designs, ones which were honed and perfected over time, are so good that you don't even notice them. They just work right from the start.
dembotoz
(16,807 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 8, 2016, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/five-myths-about-stick-shifts.htmlThrough you do have to watch what Edmunds is saying. One Japanese Company has an automatic that give better fuel economy then its Standard transmission, the reason is the final gear drive in the Auto is higher then the final gear drive in the Standard, it is NOT that Auto is better then Standard.
Aa lot of Standards sold in the US are design for use overseas where more power is expected in the final drive for traction on dirt roads, while the Autos are designed for the US market and max fuel economy on paved roads, these companies do not think it is worth the cost to design an Standard Transmission for the US market only. The classic example of this is the Chevrolet Eco vs the Ford Fusion. The Eco comes with a manual Transmission designed for the US Market, through made in Austria. The Ford Fusion comes with a Manual Transmission with a lower final drive then the Automatic version, for it was designed for dirt roads overseas not paved US Roads.
I drive a Chevrolet Eco six speed manual, it is easy to drive and I frequently get 50 mpg. Now I also live in the Mountains of Pennsylvania and my average is 38 mpg (When I get out of the mountains and stay out of Pittsburgh I do better then 40 mpg, but the mountains and the city driving tends to kill my mileage). I even went 500 miles at better then 50 mpg (my Eco has a computer that keeps these facts for me) but that was on trip in the interstates staying out of urban areas and mountains.
unlike Edmunds, Consumer Reports report significant fuel savings with manual transmission AND admits one car did better with the Automatic then a Manual for the reason I pointed out above, a better final drive in the Automatic then the Manual transmission in that one vehicle:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/save-gas-and-money-with-a-manual-transmission/index.htm
dembotoz
(16,807 posts)what would be nice if there was a website where you could be the theoretical best speed for best mileage for a car.
i drive about 40 miles each day of quiet county roads where it would not matter to anyone if i drove 45 or 55 and the time difference
is not that big a deal that i could just stay at optimum speed all the way
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)uncle ray
(3,156 posts)Automatic transmissions multiply the engine's torque via their torque converter, so they can pull a taller gear than a manual trans equipped car. a manual trans car gets it's torque multiplication solely from gear ratio. the slippage of the torque converter along with the torque multiplication created from that slippage, also reduces the effect of the large RPM drop you get at gear changes with taller gear ratios compared to a manual where the driver is responsible for matching the engine rpm to vehicle speed, etc. I've put together a few cars over the years, and have tried many combos. i would MUCH rather have a manual trans car with a too low of a numerical final gear ratio than too high. the latter is a poor performing dog that gets poor mileage.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Now realize that 50% of the people are dumber than that person.
That needs to be the design philosophy