Secret US flight flew over Scottish airspace to capture Snowden
Source: The National (Scotland)
THE UK GOVERNMENT is facing demands to reveal the details of a secret flight through Scottish airspace which was at the centre of a plot to capture whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The plane, which passed above the Outer Hebrides, the Highlands and Aberdeenshire, was dispatched from the American east coast on June 24 2013, the day after Snowden left Hong Kong for Moscow. The craft was used in controversial US ‘rendition’ missions.
<snip>
That the flight passed over Scotland, airspace regulated by the UK, has raised questions over UK complicity in a covert mission to arrest Snowden and whether any police, aviation or political authorities in Scotland were made aware of the flight path.
Alex Salmond, the SNP foreign affairs spokesman and Scotland’s First Minister when the flight took place, has called for full transparency from the UK Government over the case.
<snip>
Read more: http://www.thenational.scot/news/secret-us-flight-flew-over-scottish-airspace-to-capture-snowden.13226
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Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Assume Snowden downloaded everything he had free-access to and those files are common knowledge to whatever governments had access to Snowden.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)That the U.S. wanted to apprehend a fugitive spilling/selling NatSec secrets? Or the fact that a jet (assuming it existed for that purpose) from an allied country flew over UK airspace?
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... today the way they did someone like Daniel Ellsberg in his day.
Who was Snowden "spying" for? "Selling secrets"? TO WHO? Those are pretty big allegations! HUH? He arguably was spying for US! He was reporting to US UnAmerican activities being done in secret against US the American people. Of course those corporate oligarchs trying to run our lives don't like that, but that doesn't make it right that they can call someone like Snowden a "spy" and treat him like that when arguably the things he is telling us is letting us know about the unpunished and unscrutinized CRIMES that others are committing against us!
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Since the majority of things he's revealed had nothing to do with personal privacy or civil liberties...
retrowire
(10,345 posts)
hueymahl
(2,497 posts)It's like a dinner bell ringing for them. They can't wait to affirm how awesome our police-state government is and how bad Snowden and other defenders of liberty are. There are about a dozen reliable voices for the State. You will see.
randome
(34,845 posts)But Snowden's bizarre behavior, running out of the country then giving hundreds of thousands of national security documents to corporate media offices, not to mention being completely mistaken about what PRISM was, will always be a source of amusement for those who try to see things objectively.
Just as the Bundy Bunch in Oregon will always be a source of amusement because they, like Snowden, are fighting for our rights whether we agree with them or not!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
hueymahl
(2,497 posts)Someone yells "Snowden" and off you run to defend the State.
On another note, what happened to your weird eyeball avatar?
randome
(34,845 posts)But I'm not defending the NSA. I'm pointing out that Snowden did not always know what he was talking about. He and Greenwald were clearly mistaken about some things. The first item they showcased, the one they thought was most important, was about PRISM, and they got it wrong. So why should I believe Snowden is fighting for my rights when I didn't ask him to and he doesn't seem to understand what he's talking about?
I will no more swallow anything he says than what the Bundy Bunch says, who are also fighting for my rights when I didn't ask them to.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
hueymahl
(2,497 posts)He just made this same Red Herring argument about Prism.
But, just to play along, how exactly do you know what PRISM is? Since it is a top secret program, only a whistleblower like Snowden or the government itself could choose to talk about it. Is the government claiming it is merely a secured data transmitting program, or do you have independent evidence? And if it is just an innocuous program akin to encrypted communications protocols, why the fuck does the government care so much?
randome
(34,845 posts)A major nuisance at times, sure, but I don't agree with those who say he's a traitor. He's just a mixed-up loner who took coworker's passwords and stole as much as he could get away with.
The idea that PRISM is anything more than what the NSA says is supported -not proven, of course- by the idea that Google, Microsoft, Apple and every Internet provider in the country would all need to be cooperating with this fantasy of downloading the Internet and not a single employee would raise a concern.
If Greenwald & Snowden wanted to prove that PRISM was something else, they might have stolen evidence for their outlandish claims.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
randome
(34,845 posts)It is not some God-like computer that downloads the Internet on a minute-by-minute basis, as Greenwald and Snowden mistakenly assumed it was. Based on...I still can't get over this...a POWERPOINT SLIDE!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
PRISM is a clandestine surveillance program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from at least nine major US internet companies.
Now what communications did they collect?
think4yourself
(837 posts)"It's all just metadata. "
They come out of the woodwork!
randome
(34,845 posts)How else would Internet providers get information to the NSA? Burn a disk and mail it?
If PRISM is being used for the nefarious purposes Greenwald & Snowden claimed, then why is there not a single employee at any Internet provider willing to support them?
Anyone can make a claim. Right now Sovereign Citizens are claiming Finicum was executed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
"If PRISM is being used for the nefarious purposes Greenwald & Snowden claimed, then why is there not a single employee at any Internet provider willing to support them?"
because most of those employees are unaware it's happening.
and those that are, want to keep their jobs.
randome
(34,845 posts)Your conjecture is as evidence-free as was Greenwald & Snowden's. Could something more sinister be at play? Of course. That's why I'm not defending the NSA, simply pointing out that before I grab a pitchfork, I need something to believe in.
If you want to say that all those employees at all those Internet providers are being blackmailed or, worse, that there is not a single one of them willing to say anything...well, that's a little far-fetched to me.
The tie will always go to the NSA, absent evidence to the contrary. Greenwald & Snowden did not provide evidence. They made conjectures.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
retrowire
(10,345 posts)afraid to speak up about fishy federal business going on?
My torch and pitchfork isn't out either, but PRISM, with it's network of corporations, sharing our data with the government is fishy enough to me.
randome
(34,845 posts)If the data is 'shared' due to a legal warrant, then I doubt either of us would have a problem with it.
And until someone can show that the rules and laws regarding this are not being followed, then PRISM, to me, remains what it purports to be -a means of transmitting encrypted data, legally obtained, to the NSA.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)I've heard that what he revealed was so far-reaching and threatened national security and the lives of many operatives.
I've heard that what he revealed was non-consequential, that he revealed nothing that we already know, and thus he is just an attention seeker. (But they should still throw the book at him)
and everything in between. I guess the head of the NSA, Clapper, reversing his position after lying to Congress about mass data gathering of Americans, after what Snowden revealed, was.....just coincidence of conscience catching up to him?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Seems completely worthwhile...
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)Clapper just got caught up in the citizen sting
I'm sure Snowden had more on his mind that a simple personal grudge against one man he hardly knows.
Now yourself on the other hand seen to have a huge obsession with Greenwald. Hard to read you sig but you define a new dictionary term "greenwalding: to misrepresent a more intelligent person's superior argument, typically on social media in the form of poorly written material under the guise of journalism."
So are we to believe that you are this "more intelligent person"? And Greenwald who won a Pulitzer Prize is misrepresenting your superior argument somehow, or someone else quoting him? What was this great argument you had exactly, that that rat bastard twisted to make you look like an idiot?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)he was part of a reporting TEAM that won it... Saying Greenwald won a Pulitzer is like saying a punter singlehandedly won the super bowl.
Besides, since Tom Friedman has three of them, I guess he's "three times" as smart as ol' Glenn?
LOL... If I'm supposedly so fucking stupid and wrong and angry and obsessed or whatever, why haven't a single one of you ever proven me wrong, or disputed any of my major points? I'd have thought it would be easy, since I'm so wrong on everything...
Shit, I get fucking tired of this argumentative triangle, too -- Which is why I openly challenge everyone so *I* can get some motherfucking resolution and move on with my life...So please, by all means, prove me wrong and put me out of my fucking misery.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)You just stamp your feet and wail about nothing.
Greenwald led that team that won that Pulitzer. He has also won numerous other awards for his reporting. But I'll refrain from listing them all. Why would you doubt his credentials as a reporter? Why do you and your curious lot hate freedom of information so much? A reporter dared to shatter your world that your do-no-wrong government was abusing their authority? Because that's what it looks like. You seem so afraid to find out the raw truth that you attack not only the whistleblower, you also must attack Greenwald for publishing it. Its all about the messenger(s), and not what they say.
I tried to go to your link below but it wouldn't work. So I went to the main site, https://medium.com/, and did a search for "Snowden". Thanks, there are a number of stories. I found the one you posted. Some Danish story about how the CIA were planning to snatch Snowden using a military jet or something. But the other stories were interesting too. You should check them out. Here is one from someone that knew Snowden. And a bit of an excerpt:
https://medium.com/@colinmlee/i-knew-snowden-19c2494940d5#.5c8gn75xn
Edward Snowden has been releasing shreds of a story without characters while his opponents have created a complete narrative about his personal ambitions. All that government officials must do to blunt his message is to weaken his credibility.
The media has focused attention on the whistleblower because we all prefer to read stories about people.
Attacking the messenger distracts from the fact that so many public servants felt so strongly about the details of the wiretapping programs that they ended their careers in order to raise a public debate over them.
Officials risk almost nothing while the whistleblowers risk almost everything.
Here's another: A Lawyer’s Take on Snowden
https://medium.com/@joshm/a-lawyers-take-on-snowden-f6f435f74293#.x0nd8af81
Maybe you should read your own linked sites.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Start here and get back to me, tough guy....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026515387
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)First off, you do not ask anything that can be proven by anyone here on a message board. its mostly cherrypicking parts of his story and asking for posters to confirm your paranoia that something smells fishy. And all of it is non consequential to the meat of the whole story.
ie...What happened during 11 days in Hong Kong?. Ah....probably hiding out and not wanting to be visible.
Or How did his "scrawny ass" girlfriend come and go as she pleased to Moscow? Ah...probably because she is not accused of anything by either country.
He lied on an application to get a job. OMG! Shoot him.
What kind of job is he doing while in Russia?....He says it is web based. Why should YOU have to know exactly what other than to calm your twitchy paranoid brain? Maybe he has a job with Wikileaks, that is his business.
Why is Putin letting him stay? Because he is an embarrassment to Washington the longer he is allowed to be a public figure and criticize his own country. Same reason he lets RT, who you used in a link, in the US have free reign to talk all the shit they can about the US and other Western countries corporate bad behaviours, but you don't hear any criticism of Putin. (And I'm ok with that because otherwise you'd never hear a lot of those other stories from hosts like Thom Hartmann. there are plenty of US places to read how evil Putin is)
There is nothing to "prove" you right. Mostly because it is all conjecture on your part. All you have done is pieced together some dire James Bond movie in your head. We are not ever going to prove your delusional paranoid opinions that ....what? I don't even know..Snowden is really Doctor Evil? He is working closely with Putin to infiltrate the Pentagon computers? He is not even close to having that capability. He took that information on the servers, he didn't take some top secret skeleton key to unlock all future passcodes.
Anyways, this is kind of aimless. But I have some time before my hockey game starts.
You continue to ignore the overwhelming relevance of the actual story. The revelations of PRISM and how the NSA was mass collecting private information from Americans for years without proper oversight. And that Clapper had to return to Congress with his tail between his legs and admit he lied about it IS significant. (And he should have been charged with lying to Congress) And how Snowden singlehandedly forced a public conversation to happen about what is the proper balance between intrusion into citizens privacy, and national security.
All those other questions are superfluous.
You want to know why so many on here don't take you seriously? Take another whistleblower, Jeffrey Wigand who squealed on the tobacco industry hiding harmful results in tests. THAT is the story.
If after his shocking revelations came out, someone like you was on the message boards with a whole bunch of questions like:
In this story an interesting paragraph;
http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1996/05/wigand199605
He was sent briefly to Vietnam, he told me, although he brushed off the experience: “It was 1963, and nothing was going on.” I wondered at the defensive tone in his voice. Later B&W would challenge whether he had been in Vietnam at all. (According to one investigator, he was there for about a month.)
So let me ask you: Why was Wigand really there? Why did he just say "nothing was going on?" and why do some like B&W question whether he was even there?
So far I have not heard anyone answer these questions. So until someone does, its obvious that Wigand is just an arrogant attention seeker. He got his big movie deal which was all he was after. Dammit I'm going to go out and buy a pack of cigs just to show em!
There is a saying. "Too clever for your own good". But have fun.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)which remain unaddressed three years later (your attempted counters are mere speculation)...And that was just the first part -- Once I saw nobody really wanted to fuck with a thread which a couple of Snowdenistas dared me to start, mind you, I let it drop...
Anyway, it is you that is failing to understand the bigger picture I've painted... I realize you probably have the red ass because Vancouver played like shit last night, so I will go easy on you and spell out my basic premise in the simplest terms I can:
1. Civil liberties leaks are fine, but the majority of what's been leaked so far has had NOTHING to do with civil liberties abuses (and this fact is not in dispute)... People living in foreign countries have no inherent right to *NOT* get spied on, just like how I have no protections (legal, ethical or moral) from getting spied on by Russia, Israel, China, etc... Snowden also repeatedly said he never took files related to military operations or military intelligence, which has long since been exposed as a lie..
2. Snowden has wildly sensationalized several stories which stirred up a ton of outrage (i.e., Merkel's cellphone), but weeks later when the FULL story comes out (Merkel ignored her advisors and insisted on using an unsecured cellphone, multiple countries besides the U.S. were listening in, and Merkel was listening in on SOS Kerry's cellphone), neither Snowden nor his cultists have been made to answer for their now-discredited hysteria...
3. Rightly or wrongly, Snowden in action and words has created and continually maintains this perception that the United States and the FVEY are the only entity engaged in spycraft, (or at least the most abusive), which only strengthens the position of our adversaries' intelligence services...
4. I know he has to be obedient to the hand that feeds and protects him, but no matter how you cut it, Snowden's silence on Russia's crackdown on internet freedoms (in the irony of ironies, Putin has specifically used Snowden's leaks as his justification for the crackdown), is beyond reprehensible and hypocritical. And that's not even getting into Putin's longtime track record of assassinating or disappearing dissidents, journalists and whistleblowers, or China's recent "rendition" of dissident booksellers -- funny how there's no DU threads on THAT story, hmm? (And for the love of Jesus, please don't start with that morally bankrupt "But I don't care about that because I'm trying to fix America first!!" -bullshit... Just don't). There's also my issue with his failure to condemn Silicon Valley and the Telecoms for their complicity, but that's for another thread...
5. FACT: Before Snowden, every defector with national security secrets who fled to Russia has given something, if not everything up... If you have any reason to believe why Snowden would be an exception to this rule, I'm all ears... And no, Putin wouldn't be giving all this help to a dude who knows this much just to score a public relations victory in the world press against the West, because he was getting plenty of those before the special Snowflake ever came on the scene...
6. Yeah, I get his whiny point that electronic surveillance is evil and the overreach has gotten out of hand, blah blah blah, so where is the line drawn? What does he consider legitimate/legal/ethical spying?? He has essentially spoken about trying to establish some "international norms" or ground rules for SIGINT that every country should adhere to, but AFAIK he's never gotten into any hardcore details on how to define them, and how they could ever be enforced...
7. I'm sorry this offends your delicate sensibilities, but it's just the way my brain is wired -- It has nothing to do with "paranoia", thank you very much; it's just that when a foundation story or pattern is established, my brain instantly highlights any deviation, inconsistency or contradiction, which I try to resolve (and there have been so, so many inconsistencies and contradictions from the Snowald Cabal, it's driving me to the point of insanity)... Now, before you jump to your oh-so-obvious "But what about Clapper's inconsistencies and contradictions! Why don't they bother you as much?" My response would be because Clapper is already the designated "bad guy" in this story, and his behavior is consistent and predictable to that end... What I can't reconcile is why I should go along with everybody demanding that I exalt Snowden as some brave, humble, patriotic hero and I should build shrines and monuments of his likeness in public parks, since in light of everything those two parts don't fit together...
8. Three years in, I've seen nothing which properly addresses these inconsistencies, nor have I seen any indication that at least hints that I'm on the wrong track...
9. Yeah, yeah, I know.... I'm just a hater, screechy, paranoid, authoritarian, imperialist, jealous, paid NSA shill, hyper-obsessive rager, establishment stooge, pentagon employee, statist asshole, moron, and the list goes on... DUers throw those at me often I don't even bother to alert on it anymore...
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)thanks for your concern about that %* hockey game. We suck this year.
But while I won't call you those names you mentioned in #9, your responses don't give me much hope you won't be called them again.
The major problem many have is NOT the overseas spying. It is the domestic massive data gathering of innocent American civilians. It was the secret order to telecom and internet companies to hand over the private data of their customers. It was the fact that it seemed that intelligence communities, under Bush (and then extended under Obama) had been allowed to grow in size and power without any legal curbs to halt them. No ceiling. To the point they just assumed that 9/11 changed everything, including throwing out all rights of privacy. That we now live in a world where formerly free citizens must now expect, and live like, everything they write or do or say from now will be subject to government inspectors. Something out of the horror show of the old East Germany Stasi
Personally, as someone from the left, it raises all kinds of alarm bells about the abuse of this kind of open ended system, that would have gone on blithely without Snowden's revelations. Where this above-the-law citizen spying system would not only be used to try and find that less than 1% threat of stopping a domestic terrorist, but with all that apparatus set up, would instead be used primarily for political persecution and harassment. Against organizations like Occupy for instance. Any group or person that threatens the establishment. With the loose interpretation of "terrorism" they also go after environmentalist activists. Or animal rights groups. Finding anything they can, whether personal or misdemeanor, or even what can be loosely interpreted as encouraging terrorism to use against leadership personnel, and destabilize their organizations. And this threat to activists is doubled if and when a Republican would ever become President. Because I would not ever trust them not to use it for political spying to gather bribing fuel. Its not like it has never happened coughwatergatecough. I could envision a future, when all members of DU are being tracked. (Maybe they are already)
That there MUST be some form of civilian oversight to the program to make sure there are safeguards against these kinds of abuses, NOW, because later on it will be much harder to pull them back. It took the wholesale collapse of the Soviet block to finally rid East Germany of the Stasi. And why should Snowden be the one to find a solution to finding balance with things like ground rules for SIGINT as you demand. He is the messenger, its up to everyone else, government working with the public, to find solutions. He can't do everything!
And Snowden helped to expose, make the public more aware, and thus hopefully, curbed this trend and opened dialogue for ways to fix it. I don't worship Snowden. And I think it is insulting frankly, to insinuate that those that appreciate what Snowden did, and paid a high price to do, are "cultists" or want to "build shrines and monuments of his likeness in public parks". You create a strawman and then laugh at it.
What else have you written...lets see if I can at least briefly answer...
Merkels cellphone....whatever who cares. Again, nothing Snowden or Greenwald can do about that.
And it is laughable that you expect Snowden to also, after everything else, lead the fight against Putin and his own crackdowns on free speech. My gawd, first he is ridiculed for being an idiot who you can't respect, and now you want him to solve every civil rights abuse in every country! Especially given that he has been granted sanctuary in that country. Would you? Seriously that is the most idiotic demand of him I have ever heard. Pussy Riot could do a better job at that.
Its like some other defector of a country whose government is abusing its authority and civil rights against its own people in secret...and this person discloses this and so their life is threatened, and so they escape and run to the US who grants them asylum. Now if you heard some voices coming from that foreign country that instead of giving that whistleblower support, were blasting him for not going after the country that lets him stay there and not spending all his time spewing out about the US government civil abuses...well, that is how you come across. He is only human, he is undergoing enough stress I'd imagine. Why would he add to it now? It is not like there are no other voices that are critical of Putin and his crackdowns, or Snowden has some inside edge just because he lives there.
What I have never understood, and probably the reason why I am engaging you, is why those that criticize Snowden for blowing the whistle on this important topic, must build such a straw man to hate. Throwing out all these superfluous details at the far edges of the actual important issues he forced onto the table as red herrings to be distracted with. And conversely accuse those that appreciate his disclosures, which you must admit involved great personal sacrifice on his part, as somehow deifying him into some kind of God. That you must imagine that is a reality in order to feel better about opposing him. It is puzzling, because I can understand it from an authoritarian right wing fundamentalist conservative, those that fear disorder and put security above civil liberties...the kind of people whose beliefs, if allowed to propagate, would lead to a Nazi or Stalinist totalitarian fascist state. But to hear it coming from a voice on a more liberal message board...I don't understand.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)-- Congress, and the OIG
"And why should Snowden be the one to find a solution to finding balance with things like ground rules for SIGINT as you demand. He is the messenger, its up to everyone else, government working with the public, to find solutions. He can't do everything!"
-- Because he's the one who put himself out there as the moral authority, the mascot of everyman outrage... Nevermind the fact that he's been saying this outright:
"We need to work together to agree on a reasonable international norm for the limitations on spying," Snowden said. "Nobody should be hacking critical-to-life infrastructure like hospitals and power stations, and it's fair to say that can be recognized in international law."
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/01/27/edward-snowden-nsa-conducts-economic-spying
Since he's so quick to criticize this or that proposed reform, all I'm asking is for him to elaborate on these supposed "international norms"...
"And it is laughable that you expect Snowden to also, after everything else, lead the fight against Putin and his own crackdowns on free speech."
--All I want is some consistency from him, since he styles himself as the fearless, speak-truth-to-power type... There are some dissident investigative journalists still left in Russia like Andrei Soldatov who were hopeful that Snowden might be an ally in *their* campaign for openness and transparency, but Snowden has rejected EVERY interview request from Russian investigative journalists, and when Soldatov complained about getting stonewalled on Twitter, Greenwald and his minions dutifully smeared him as a tool of Putin, in an ironic twist... (By all means don't believe me, research that story yourself and you'll see it all in plain truth.)
I'd say given his high profile Snowden has a moral obligation to say something since as he likes to remind us, "silence equals consent"...I mean for fuck's sake Snowden doesn't have to lead a one-man campaign in Russia, at this point I'd just be happy if he just acknowledged these issues exist and not everything bad in the world is directly the fault of Washington -- Evidently Snowden and Greenwald heard me since they finally made some lukewarm, mildly-but-not-really critical comments about Russian rights violations last year, but that doesn't cancel out three years of silence on that, the Ukraine invasion, MH 17, etc...
"Merkels cellphone....whatever who cares. Again, nothing Snowden or Greenwald can do about that."
--Bullshit son, it doesn't work like that... If they were able to spin that story into global outrage and Snowdenistas are screaming on DU every day HOW DARE THE FUCKING UNITED STATES SPY ON AN ALLIED NATION!!!! Then they damn well better tell the full fucking story when all the facts come out... Believe it or not, that used to be called "journalism", but that's too old-school for some folks. My number one issue with Greenwald is he never follows all the facts wherever they lead and writes his story based on that; he cherry-picks facts that bolster his argument while ignoring the rest so the public only gets half a story (in other words, he shows his origins by writing stories the same way he might make a legal argument in court) -- And he's been getting away with doing this forever; I can easily point out a dozen more stories where the truth came out a couple of weeks after the fact but by that time Glenn had long since moved on to his next poutrage...
"What I have never understood, and probably the reason why I am engaging you, is why those that criticize Snowden for blowing the whistle on this important topic, must build such a straw man to hate. Throwing out all these superfluous details at the far edges of the actual important issues he forced onto the table as red herrings to be distracted with."
-- It's his inconsistencies, how many more ways do I need to say it? Obama already signed a minor NSA reform bill into law, and later the major NSA reform bill went from probable passage to failure in the Senate after Rand Paul turned on it in the 11th hour...So how much more does Snowden want? During this time not ONE other nation on Earth enacted any legislation to reign in their spy powers, iirc... Dudebros living in rainbow/unicorn fantasyland who believe the U.S. will willingly put themselves at a SIGINT disadvantage are deluding themselves, especially in the current global climate...
Like I said, I'd have been more inclined to support Snowden had he used more discretion, kept his leaks narrowly focused, stopped contradicting his background story every time he's interviewed, and if he'd ended up anywhere besides Moscow (whether he was duped, or through his appalling lack of foresight, it's still 100% his fault for ending up there, period)... And rightly or wrongly, he should have kept his fucking head down once he forked over the million files to Greenwald -- All these speeches, proclamations, interviews, public appearances, book deals, movie deals, statues, shrines, endorsements, Twitter, etc. just fucking rub me the wrong way, as if his only motivation for doing this was for cashing in... For someone who from day one has whined about "Don't make this story about ME!", he has the oddest way of showing it...
Upon some personal reflection, I probably hate Snowald a bit more than I honestly should because DU made me eat so much shit in the early days that I'm going to extract some payback in blood when I get the first hint that this whole charade might come undone (this is a war they fucking started, mind you)... So you might even say my hatred of Snowald is rooted in my hatred in a large number of DUers.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)Your constant name-calling and verbal insults do nothing for your position or help convince others of your openmindedness on the topic. The argument of the assholeness of him or us supporters, while acting the same, does nothing to help your case.
I guess we will agree to disagree that Snowden should be, or even could be in charge of, or even have some part in, actually overhauling the whole system, on top of exposing the problem. Overlooking of course the fact that he would never be ever allowed to get close to being a participant. What he meant by "We need to work together to agree on a reasonable international norm for the limitations on spying," was a general "we" the people. You can't be so dim as to not understand that.
And why this insistence that he champion Russian people's rights as well? This is a disingenuous argument to one hand disrespect him, call him names, ridicule him and insinuate all kinds of nefarious motives to show he doesn't actually care about what he claims he does, and then demand he martyr himself by lambasting his host country for those issues that you claim he is not honest about as well. Oh and also add to that what my previous paragraph is about. Just who is deifying him now? He is just one man, and flawed at that. What he has set off is a huge issue by itself. Its like demanding Martin Luther King should have also spent a lot of his time researching and speaking out and even participating in some other foreign countries civil rights issues as well. He is/was just a low level data collector for a government contracted company who decided that the American public deserved a right to know that their own government was lying to them about protecting their privacy rights.
And it is folks like you that MAKE the story all about Snowden. Throwing out all these small conspiracy theories that somehow might point to some kind of other motive besides altruism. Of course his is a central character in the story. That is unavoidable. And he wants to still be a part of his own story. Why not? But how you get from that to him simply wanting some kind of celebrity and to "cash in" sounds preposterous. why would someone sacrifice his freedom, to be hunted by the world's superpower, ending in most likely a life imprisonment if not worse....to "cash in" for however long he manages to remain free? Forgetting for a moment just how this "cashing in" would happen. Actually, if say he wrote a book, and made some money on it, I'd say good for him. Its a small pittance for what he has and will go through.
Its easy to get angry at other posters responses, and I too always read with bias posts from others that I have had an antagonistic argument with in the past. And if I am honest as well I am probably using you and your posts to write back all the stuff I wanted to to all those who IMO irrationally hate on Snowden, Greenwald, Assange, Wikileaks, Manning....etc..But to me this issue is too important to let some anonymous person on a message board, affect my overall feelings on the main topic. It reminds me of some on here declaring they will vote for X for the Democratic nomination simply because they found a few instances of Y's supporters were being mean to them, or saying nasty things about candidate X on a message board.
I have to stop. I don't think I will be changing your opinion on anything. Just so you know, whether you believe me or not, Snowden is a tiny part of the story. As is where he stopped over, where he lives now, or even if he is a jerk or not. The story was never about him. The MSM more than anyone makes the story center around Snowden to deflect the real issue. I can almost understand because they know there needs to be some personality to make a story interesting. But we don't have to fall into that trap. We all have to move on to find a solution to the now visible elephant in the room, not dwelling on the peccadilloes of that one person that pointed him out.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)-- Because it's beyond hypocritical for anybody under the protection of the Russian government to call out the U.S. for comparatively lesser transgressions... And every time Russia gets caught doing something cute (or heinous) and Snowden remains silent, then it's no big leap to question whether he's switched sides...
"And it is folks like you that MAKE the story all about Snowden."
-- I'm not the one paying his speaking fees, writing his biography, filming his movie, or building statues of him... If anything, I'm trying to tear those fucking statues down... So please keep telling me how *I* am responsible...
"The MSM more than anyone makes the story center around Snowden to deflect the real issue"
-- You mean like Greenwald? Snowden's personal PR rep and brand manager? Because he's done more to promote Snowflake more than anybody else...
"I have to stop. I don't think I will be changing your opinion on anything."
-- Just like how I haven't changed the minds of anybody on your side... I don't even dare point out fresh lies and/or contradictions anymore unless I'm in a fighting mood and want to deal with the shitstorm.. Only time will tell who will be eventually proven right... So until then, we wait.
"Just so you know, whether you believe me or not, Snowden is a tiny part of the story. As is where he stopped over, where he lives now, or even if he is a jerk or not. The story was never about him."
--So why does he constantly whore for the spotlight? Is somebody putting a gun to his head and making him grant prime time interviews?? Why have there been so many threads on DU praising him if the story was "never about him?" Why have the Snowdenistas so virulently shut down ANY and ALL discussion about spying abuses that don't involve the NSA? You say Snowden is a 'tiny' part of the story and I need to believe you like that's God's word or something... That's your opinion, and it is easily countered by overwhelming evidence to the contrary...
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)"You say Snowden is a 'tiny' part of the story and I need to believe you like that's God's word or something... That's your opinion, and it is easily countered by overwhelming evidence to the contrary..."
.....blah blah Snowden...blah blah blah Snowden blah blah Greenwald...blah blah.....Snowden.......
Here's a thought. Maybe it is not Snowden begging for attention...maybe reporters, film makers, etc...approach him for stories BECAUSE HE AND HIS ACTIONS IS A NEWS STORY. And maybe, he accepts those invitations BECAUSE HE WELCOMES OPPORTUNITIES TO KEEP THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE IN THE NEWS. And maybe the only people making it more than that, and obsess about the man or men surrounding the story, calling them juvenile names and spending their time trying to dig up any tiny inconsistency or personal flaw, are those that are too authoritarian or frightened to want to contemplate the actual meat of the story. Because that is the only conclusion I can come to.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Need to get in the last word?
If you can't tell the point where a legit news story morphs into self-promotion, I don't know what else to say... (Full disclosure -- I've worked in news, public relations and marketing, so I know media strategies and brand management when I see it)
Aside from the occasional exclusive softball interview, Snowden stopped being "news" not long after Oscar night (Greenwald and his cronies in the blogosphere publish the occasional sensationalized piece, and Snowden himself got a twitter account so he can pontificate to his acolytes)... So why do I still see his ugly mug everywhere?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Unless you are prepared to argue that PRISM and the other programs he revealed were legal, then Snowden is a "whistleblower" by definition.
trillion
(1,859 posts)liberties? I disagree.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)That's the thing. Why the heck should we be shocked? Our government spies on it's citizens, it's allies, probably congress and the Senate... phone records, emails, everything. The world has become much smaller - and it has become much harder to keep secrets. However, it has also become harder for the CIA/NSA/Homeland Security to keep secrets, as people like Snowden apparently have some shred of integrity and are uncomfortable with such over-reaching, invasion of privacy, violations of our rights.
Homeland Security, the Military Industrial Complex... CIA, hell, we don't need to make this shit up, because the reality is bad enough. As a favorite Author of mine likes to say, "The truth is often stranger than fiction."
Protecting our citizens is one thing, but we should all be aware that information gathered isn't always used for it's intended/stated purpose. Some level of information gathering is necessary for our security, but the immense spy programs that have come to light in the recent years should be a matter of some concern. Imagine our Nation under Cruz, or Trump, imagine it under such a person and Martial Law to boot - which very well could happen, in the event of great disaster, which seems likely, even inevitable, at some future date.
Transparency. That's what people like Snowden play a part in creating. Some may call him fugitive, me, I figure he's one of the truest Patriots we've got, who was willing to take on the status of a fugitive to shine a light on some of the darkness that hides within our immense security system.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)that all nations spy on all nations... Yeah, I know the U.S. is EVUL and is 100% responsible for everything bad that ever happened on this planet, but even if the U.S. stopped all intelligence activities today, some other nation will just fill the vacuum...
I'm still waiting for Snowden to start his "transparency" campaign in Mother Russia... Ironically, if anything the Russian government has regressed even further during the time he's been there.... I mean, FFS a whistleblower was assassinated in public, down the street from his apartment... Snowflake himself was probably close enough to hear the gunshots...
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)As much as they can get away with, sure. - As much as they can get away with -. The US government gets away with a lot more. It's not just a matter of spying on other Nations, but of violating the rights of it's own citizens. A whole lot of this started with the Patriot Act, giving powers to the security apparatus, that, before 9/11, would have been unthinkable. The ACLU should have had a field day with that, heads should have rolled for such a betrayal of the American people and their civil rights. To call it the Patriot act is such an insult to any kind of sincere patriotism that it should make us all sick.
No one is (and I'm certainly not) suggesting that we should not maintain our information gathering network. What I am suggesting, is that there needs to be a check on big brother's power and over-reaching hand, even if that check is limited to people like Snowden giving us some clue as to what is going on.
You know... if my life was threatened, by my own Country, for doing the right thing... I think I myself might flee to any Nation willing to have me, and count myself fortunate to have survived. Particularly when that Country (the US, I mean) is, for all intents and purposes, the most powerful on Earth.
Where would Snowden be able to flee if the Russians wanted him dead or imprisoned? You think they would stop with him? No, they'd get him, his associates, close friends and/or family who were in the Country, maybe more. In the US, there remains some manner of keeping them in check through investigative journalism, the power of the masses, a President who isn't a complete authoritarian. Russia is a different kettle of fish.
Personally, I applaud him for telling the truth - for having the courage to do so and for having the courage to take on life in another Country so different from his own.
Why flee to Russia? Because, in our eternal pissing contest with Russia, the Russian government is highly unlikely to give him up, no matter how much the powers in the US want them to.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and I still have yet to see any definitive proof that Snowden hasn't been helping the Russian government out in some capacity...
Had he just stuck to his script and only revealed things that affect the privacy of regular Americans, I'd have been more inclined to support him... But once he started revealing completely legitimate foreign operations like spying on China, all bets were off and this whole charade stopped being about "whistleblowing", which is just the PR shield he tries to hide behind...
jhart3333
(332 posts)Go ahead and push your made up version of events but don't expect me to believe you.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Assange is lying? Interesting...
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/wikileaks-assange-told-snowdon-flee-russia-risk-being-killed-after-nsa-leak-1517643
I could really make your head spin and lay out the mounting case for Wikileaks being an extension of Russian intelligence, but that's a discussion for another thread.
And how was he able to fly out of Hong Kong on June 23 when his passport was revoked on June 21 without help from the Russians?
And why can't Snowden apply for Russian citizenship and fly on their passport anywhere in the world?
Or if he wants out so badly, why doesn't he walk out of his apartment to the foreign consulate of his choice and request asylum?
Surely you can do better than this?
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)he would have been extraordinarily renditioned to Morocco to be tortured.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)The US government revoked his passport.
"...I still have yet to see any definitive proof that Snowden hasn't been helping the Russian government out in some capacity..."
Absence of proof is proof of absence. 
You haven't seen any proof because Snowden, like Saddam with his WMD, is so deceptive.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)We both know the logical fallacy there, though.
To be honest, I don't know all of the details of the foreign operations information he revealed. What I'm concerned about is the privacy and civil rights of American citizens. To me, anyone who protects that, is someone I would stand with, this is my home, these are my people. Therefor, Snowden gets my support, at least for that, because that's a big part of what Patriotism is, standing up to power (particularly abused/misused power) in support of your own Country and it's people.
Every Nation spies on every Nation, as much as it can get away with. When it comes to spying on our own though... think of the endless possibilities if that power isn't kept in check. Are members of congress being blackmailed right now through some of this information gathering? How about the Senate? Is it being used to threaten honest American citizens? How can we know if and when this happens? Typically, it is only when someone from the inside blows the whistle - and that's what Snowden did, in letting us know, to some extent, just what the heck was going on.
As for his personal motivations and/or ambitions, I don't know what they are and can only speculate. Whatever they might be though - and whatever else he might have revealed, it can't be denied that our government and it's security operations have severely over-reached. The Patriot Act, under different names, continues to be maintained, even by a Democratic President who is a student of Constitutional law, who damn well ought to know better.
I fear there will be a price to pay for this in years to come. I fear there has already been all manner of illegal information gathering that has likely been put to purposes that none of us would approve of.
American safety, even from our own Government, is something that concerns me deeply. I'm not one of those Right wing militia nuts that's calling for revolution, but any student of history - and anyone of any sense, ought to be concerned about the power of government. They have no right to my personal information without a warrant, without some legit purpose as for why it's being gathered, without going through the legal process in order to gather it. That process has become all too flimsy.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)it doesn't matter what foreign ops get blown, or how much Russia and China are able to strengthen their intel positions because one part of Snowden's leaks were (narrowly) related to civil liberties violations?
Thank you for being upfront -- I admire your candor.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)LOL!
Prism is Google for domestic surveillance.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)It doesn't matter if everyone's phone calls, email, instant messages, Google searches, etc. are collected and stored by the government because of the War on Terra (even though the gov't has admitted that zero terror attacks have been stopped by the surveillance.)
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)I don't have the details of those foreign ops that were blown, but I've read/heard enough about the gathering of so called "metadata" to make my head spin. I mean, how much is too much? Phone conversations recorded, access to our calls, to our private email accounts, to records that certainly are not public knowledge. It is a continuation of the Bush legacy that began with things like the Patriot act. People being held indefinitely - without being indicted, or even accused of a crime. The abuse of prisoners, the mishandling of all kinds of issues, both foreign and domestic, because some individuals were given access to power and/or information that they should not have had.
Or, on a different note, consider the DEA. Some time ago, I was educated by my former Professor regarding the seizure of assets by the DEA. They don't need proof, or even solid evidence - but simply - suspicion - that any/all of your assets were gained through illegal drug sales. Whether it's true or not, they can seize all of your financial assets - and you can spend years in court fighting a losing battle to get it back.
There's too much abuse of power in this Country that has become ever so much worse since the Bush administration got that particular ball rolling. Frankly, I just don't trust my government with open access to all of this information - and all of these exemptions from laws that govern the rest of us. Checks and balances... we need more of them.
The same is apparent to me in regards to the current economic situation - the uber rich getting uber richer, while the poor for the most part, are ignored. It becomes a question of who has the most money/power and what they are doing with it. The average American citizen no longer has enough to protect themselves from situations that, through no fault or wrongdoing of their own, can destroy their lives, relationships, families, careers - and more.
Gathering information regarding Russia and China and what they are up to is one thing - I don't think Snowden could blow the whole apparatus by himself. My concern though, is for people living here, not so much for what China or Russia might possibly do at some future date. Do those things matter? Of course, but, to me, our own citizens and how our government manages this Country... matters more.
With a rot so deep on the inside, I am far more concerned with my own Country than with others. We are much like the Roman Empire was, in the final days of it's power... and we all know what happened to the Roman Empire.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)At least you're giving me well-thought responses instead of the garden-variety insults and ad-homs I get from the rest of the Snowald Brigades... And I appreciate it
randome
(34,845 posts)Obviously that line gets crossed when they obtain a foreign email account that may also include domestic data. And clearly some considered the metadata collection to be the next best thing to spying because of how it could be used. I understand that last point of view but it never bothered me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Thanks to Mr. Snowden's whistle, we learned exactly how they were doing that.
randome
(34,845 posts)There is no other way to do that. If you accept the premise that the information could be useful in the case of an attack, then it makes sense to have that information readily available rather than having to go through an enormously time-consuming process of accumulating the information after the fact.
In other words, having to contact hundreds of telecom companies and waiting for them to send you the data. That would be self-defeating.
Even Bob Woodward said it seemed the NSA had good rules in place to prevent abuse. So all Snowden ended up 'telling us' about was something we knew since 2007.
Granted, he made enough of a 'cause celebre' of himself that the metadata collection was stopped. Big deal. Did he need to steal hundreds of thousands of documents, go on the run and then hand over the documents to corporate media offices? I hardly think so.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 4, 2016, 04:17 PM - Edit history (1)
individualized warrants required for surveillance and the NSA rules then in place that mandated "minimization" (timetables for automatic destruction of data inadvertently scooped up for others). Instead, as Snowden's documents show, the agency created an elaborate mechanism for long-term retention and data-mining of the communications of individuals who were not targeted with warrants. Generalized, warrantless, long-term retention of data is still in place. The 4th Amendment has not been revived.
If the NSA had been following the law, his leaks would never have received much attention in the western media.
randome
(34,845 posts)Apparently not. And I don't think Snowden even knew about this. It was pointed out to him after his data dump. IOW, he 'accidentally' found something.
All this fretting over what might happen someday to someone...well, it's a good discussion to have. Was it worth all the international trouble Snowden made? No. He never engaged in a discussion. He stole and ran and fenced his goods. It didn't work out very well for him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
leveymg
(36,418 posts)communications? The authors of the Bill of Rights would certainly have thought so.
As for Snowden and others who work with TS/SCI clearances for NSA and CIA and their contractors, they certainly know the gov't routinely breaks the law. It's just another day at the office for them. The other national security whistleblowers who have come forward attest to that culture of lawlessness and expediency with civil liberties that's come into being since 9/11.
I would say that the NSA and other IC agencies have done themselves and the Executive Branch enormous harm. Snowden merely revealed the details of that and confirmed the hideous truth that many of us already understood about the State surveillance in America. Because it is never any accountability for those involved, it only gets worse. Because it really doesn't work very well to protect us, the surveillance state will inevitably take much more severe, sophisticated forms of repression after the next attacks. Will anyone be harmed by that? Ask yourself that question.
xocet
(3,871 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)What is is called when you flee to a foreign government and beg for their direct protection through political asylum? Why would Snowden live so comfortably with 24/7 armed guard if he wasn't playing for the other team now?
xocet
(3,871 posts)n/t
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and I've pointed out as much over the past 3 years
navarth
(5,927 posts)just disgust at how many authoritarians are on DU
Broward
(1,976 posts)but probably not as many as it seems. The same ones show up on most threads.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I've already been called everything on this forum except a child of God...Go crazy, let loose... I don't alert, because that's useless anyway.
I've grown to love namecalling and personal insults directed at me from Snowdenistas because I know it means you don't have any factual argument to make to refute me...
I've challenged hundreds of you people to prove me wrong on one point -- I even said I'd leave DU for good if they could accomplish that one simple task... Yet I'm still here and the Snowdenistas don't even have the stones to fuck with me anymore, which is a shame...
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)I await your factual argument, comprised of refutable statements and supported by empirical evidence.
xocet
(3,871 posts)campaign is based on nothing but your own assertions of things you cannot begin to prove, but still feel the need to put out for public consumption as a good propagandist would.
I'll echo OnyxCollie's comment here to see if you can take up the challenge:
I await your factual argument, comprised of refutable statements and supported by empirical evidence."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1335871
Have at it if you can.
Why not surprise the thread and back up your claims with something other than drivel?
(Of course, I await either crickets or an avalanche of BS, so please try to be original.)
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
And this is not the only one. There are about a dozen. I had to put them on ignore for a while when Snowden was a frequent topic.
Oh, and i'll give you one guess which third-way candidate they all back this year.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)and the issue you have here is that people are upset about it?
It doesn't bother you that we torture or kidnap people, it just bothers you that people are bothered?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and people didn't seem to care much one way or the other before, but put Snowflake's name in the story and all of a sudden it's LOUD NOISES!
And since everybody has a hard-on about kidnapping and torture, does anybody care to name any other instances where this has happened? Or has nobody thought that far ahead yet?
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)as well they should have been. Right up until the presidency changed. Then we weren't supposed to bring it up anymore. Turns out whether torture is bad or not depends entirely on who's doing it.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Your post is pretty Greenwaldian, I'll give you that...
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Is that the use of UK airspace is not allowed for extraordinary rendition. Cameron will face a lot of justified questioning.
One thing's for certain Corbyn would never let this sort of crap happen.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)after these same stories started popping up back in 2014? That kind of questioning??
The only reason Corbyn wouldn't allow this is because he's in love with Putin and would do anything to protect Moscow's interests at all costs... Incidentally, this is also why he'd never get elected anyway so your comment is a non-starter...
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Like oppose military action in Syria in support of Russian forces, that sort of protection. You're right, it really is a torrid love affair. You should write fanfiction.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)fugitive spy. The CIA/DIA or whomever was operating that would-be rendition flight should have been chasing down the illegal program operators, not the man who revealed the agencies wrongdoing.
homegirl
(1,429 posts)flying over Scottish territory is not unusual. While visiting the Highlands in May 2015 we were treated to an airshow of British planes chasing Russian planes from Scottish air space. We were told this is a frequent occurrence.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Ironing Man
(164 posts)so, let me get this straight...
a civil registered, civilian Gulfstream aircraft flew through UK airspace - but didn't land - in exactly the same way as thousands of civil registered, civilian aircraft fly through UK airspace every day?
and, just so we can pick up on one tiny detail - the aircraft did not fly 'well above' the normal flying altitude of 45,000ft because it, err... can't. the service ceiling for a Gulfstream G550 is 51,000ft, and 6,000ft - 2km, or just over a mile - is not 'well above' anything.
Salmond doing his normal wild exageration and hyperbole to keep him relevent - he lost the independence referendum by a significant margin and has been completely eclipsed by his successor. its embarrassing...
harun
(11,348 posts)It's about the constituents of these countries holding their elected officials accountable for a history of complying with U.S. behavior they have considered locally to be illegal for years.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Anybody who feels lucky and wants to take me on, well, you know where to find me...
gordyfl
(598 posts)In UK? Seems US and UK have little tolerance for transparency.
randome
(34,845 posts)I guess the entire world is against Assange and transparency -except some DUers.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Not talking Snowden.
bananas
(27,509 posts)The OP mentions:
Cory Doctorow has some links and images:
https://boingboing.net/2016/01/30/danish-government-let-america.html
Danish government let America's Snowden-kidnapping jet camp out in Copenhagen
Cory Doctorow / 5:46 am Sat Jan 30, 2016
The Gulfstream, tail number N977GA, was given permission to land in and fly over Denmark, and spent some time parked in Copenhagen, waiting to snatch Edward Snowden and kidnap him to America.
The revelation comes from Denfri.dk, an investigative news site that obtained details through dogged Freedom of Information requests.
Many of the requests were denied, because "Denmark’s relationship with the USA would be damaged if the information becomes public knowledge," according to the Danish foreign ministry.
In 2015, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen argued to the Danish parliament that Snowden was not entitled to asylum.
<snip>
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The Danes with the most dough are willing to throw integrity over the side to keep Capitalism's Invisible Army happy.
The biggest revelation outta Snowden and WikiLeaks -- what makes it illegal for Pentagon and State department and any other government employee to even visit online and see for him or herself -- is the memos are a record of the various corruptions by the US Government on behalf of corporations and the rich. If these people in government service knew what was being done by the bosses and connected cronies, there might be action that leads to justice.
bananas
(27,509 posts)
malthaussen
(17,204 posts)Why is this news? For that matter, why is it news now?
-- Mal
bananas
(27,509 posts)Danish government let America's Snowden-kidnapping jet camp out in Copenhagen
Cory Doctorow / 5:46 am Sat Jan 30, 2016
The Gulfstream, tail number N977GA, was given permission to land in and fly over Denmark, and spent some time parked in Copenhagen, waiting to snatch Edward Snowden and kidnap him to America.
The revelation comes from Denfri.dk, an investigative news site that obtained details through dogged Freedom of Information requests.
Many of the requests were denied, because "Denmark’s relationship with the USA would be damaged if the information becomes public knowledge," according to the Danish foreign ministry.
In 2015, Danish PM Lars Løkke Rasmussen argued to the Danish parliament that Snowden was not entitled to asylum.
<snip>
thereismore
(13,326 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)They're getting close, I know it!
"A Tree Grows In Brooklyn."
"A Plane Flies In Scotland."
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)"Denmark's justice minister says a U.S. government airplane parked at Copenhagen's airport in June 2013 was waiting to fly former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden to the United States. Soeren Pind said in a letter to Parliament Friday that the plane's presence "allegedly was to have been to be able to transport Edward Snowden to the United States in case he was extradited from Russia or another country."
Snowden, who was granted asylum in Russia, leaked millions of documents about U.S. government surveillance in 2013. In the letter Pind regretted being unclear about the plane's presence in close U.S. ally Denmark when quizzed by lawmakers on Wednesday."
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/3f2b12f9b19845128f540439ee14d08a/denmark-says-us-plane-was-ready-fly-snowden-back