Colombia, Spain in diplo-row over sunken treasure trove worth an estimated $2 billion

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Agence France-Presse

Colombia, Spain in diplo-row over sunken treasure trove worth an estimated $2 billion
Sunday, December 20, 2015

BOGOTA (AFP).- Billions of dollars in gold and silver from an 18th century shipwreck have left Spain and former colony Colombia at odds over who rightfully owns the loot.

The disagreement is over the "San Jose," an treasure ship wreck that Colombia located recently off the coast of Cartagena de Indias, its old Caribbean port city.

The "San Jose" sank in June 1708 near the Islas del Rosario, during combat with British ships attempting to take its cargo, as part of the War of Spanish Succession.

The Spanish galleon was the main ship in a treasure fleet carrying gold and silver -- likely extracted from Spanish colonial mines in Peru and Bolivia -- and other valuables to King Philip V.


Read more: http://artdaily.com/news/83787/Colombia--Spain-in-diplo-row-over-sunken-treasure-trove-worth-an-estimated--2-billion-#.VnYBuuRIiwk

[lastlib]

1. (Pass the salsa, please...)

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[cstanleytech]

2. Simply put the items were most likely stolen by the Spanish and Spain needs to be told to take

their grievances and shove them up their blowhole.

[metalbot]

9. They almost certainly weren't stolen from Colombia

Granted, the Spanish stole a lot of other stuff, but any silver is almost certainly from Peru.

[cstanleytech]

10. Not arguing but my main point is that its sure hell is not the property of Spain.

I could understand loaning them some of the items for a long term museum display, thats is just good overall conduct but for the Spanish government to think its entitled to any of the gold? They need to fuck off.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Also, include Bolivia, where more than 8 million miners have died since the 1500's.

From Wikipedia:

Cerro Rico (also called Cerro de Potosí, Quechua Sumaq Urqu) is a mountain in the Andes near the Bolivian city of Potosí. Cerro Rico was famous for providing vast quantities of silver for Spain during the period of the New World Spanish Empire. The mountain, which is popularly conceived of as being "made of" silver ore, caused the city of Potosí to become one of the largest cities in the New World. After 1800, the silver mines were depleted, making tin the main product. This eventually led to a slow economic decline. Nevertheless, the mountain continues to be mined for silver to this day. Due to poor worker conditions, such as a lack of protective equipment against the constant inhalation of dust, many of the miners contract silicosis and have a life expectancy of around 40 years. The mountain is still a significant contributor to the city's economy, employing some 15,000 miners.

It is known as 'mountain that eats men' because of the large number of workers who died in the mines. Some writers such as Eduardo Galeano in his work Open Veins of Latin America estimate, quoting Josiah Conder,[1] that up to 8 million men have died in the Cerro Rico since the 16th century. Historians such as Peter Bakewell,[2] Noble David Cook,[3] Enrique Tandeter [4] and Raquel Gil Montero [5] take a different and more academic approach to the issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Rico

[center]

Cero Rico







Very cruel place for workers. [/center]

[metalbot]

12. Thanks!

Cerro Rico was actually the site I was thinking of - I'd read of it being essentially as close to "mountain of pure silver" as you can geologically get.

The ultimate court case here is going to be interesting - Spain is making a claim under maritime law, to a treaty that Colombia never signed, to claim gold that was made from Pacific trade with China and exchanged for silver mined in Bolivia by slave labor from Peru, Bolivia, and Aftrica. I could see at least 4-5 parties to the legal challenge (which may be moot if Colombia basically says "finders keepers&quot .

[rug]

3. Colombia wins.

[happyslug]

14. Not so sure, the "San Jose" was technically a War Ship....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wager%27s_Action

IF the "San Jose" was a merchantman, then whoever found it would have first claim to any treasure (provided the original owner had given up all efforts to recover the Ship and/or Cargo). On the other hand a Warship always remains the property of the Nation that had possession of that Warship when it sunk (This includes any rebel ship of that Nation, the the CSS Alabama belongs to the US Government).

We conclude that as a matter of law the ALABAMA's bell is the property of the United States by right of succession and that the district court was correct in so holding.

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/973/212/386226/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Alabama

I bring up the CSS Alabama for it was a WARSHIP and even through it was a Warship of a country that as far as the US government is concerned never existed, that "Country" is now part of the US, and thus any warship is US Federal Government property and can NOT be touched without US permission. The same with the San Jose, it was a SPANISH WARSHIP and thus remains the property of Spain.

On the other hand the San Jose was found within the 12 mile limit of Columbia's coast and thus within the territorial waters of Columbia. Being within the 12 mile limit means this is "Internal Waters" as far as the International Treaty of the Sea is concerned.

http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf

Thus under the Laws of the Sea, which Columbia did not sign, this wreck is under the legal jurisdiction of Columbia, but that means the Courts of Columbia gets to decide any disputes NOT who has title to the ship.

Please note, the Law of the Sea was more a Codification of existing law as oppose to something 100% new. The Law of the Sea permitted countries to adopt a 12 mile limit for most states were going to the 12 mile limit by the 1970s.

On the other hand when the San Jose sunk, the limit was only three miles (the Three Miles was the max range of a cannon could fire in the 1500s when it was first adopted as the legal limit).

Columbia is saying the San Jose is they property for it is within the territorial waters of Columbia. Spain is saying that is unimportant for it is a Spanish War Ship. The Courts of Columbia will decide this, but the politicians talking today are just taking positions on that legal argument, they are NOT saying the other side is wrong nor accusing the other side of "stealing" the ship. I expect a deal between the two nations, with certains items being sent to museums in both countries, other items being sold and divided between Spain and Columbia, and some items being subject to joint ownership (part time in Columbia, part time in Spain).

[rug]

16. Thanks for that analysis.

Not being a Proctor in Admiralty, I will only say that Colombia acquired that right to that ship and its contents by right of succession after its independence in 1810.

Still, that's a fine analysis.

[hobbit709]

4. Why should stolen property be returned to the thief?

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. Yup

[yellowcanine]

13. Yeah, Spain stole the silver from the Incas, it seems.

So Peru should get anything above what goes to the salvage company.

[MisterP]

5. Bogota: "Spain exploited Colombia!" Madrid: "and Bogota's the ones who turned it into an art!"

[forest444]

18. Hear, hear.

http://www.workers.org/articles/2015/09/23/phoney-charges-a-tool-of-repression-in-colombia/

[McCamy Taylor]

6. Stolen ore goes back to S. America. Send the remains of the ship to Spain.

[killbotfactory]

7. Spain stole that gold fair and square. Nt

[Forrage]

15. Give it to Colombia

Colonialism doesn't exist.

[DrToast]

17. Whoops! It's actually Spain and the Philippines

Sorry Colombia.