US-armed Syrian rebels 'hit Russian helicopter with missile' as it searched for downed plane pilots

[MowCowWhoHow III]

Source: The Independent

A US-armed Syrian rebel group claims it has hit a Russian military helicopter with an anti-tank missile, forcing it to make an emergency landing.

The helicopter was understood to have been among a number of Russian aircraft searching for the two pilots from an Su-24 jet which was downed by the Turkish military.

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, Free Syrian Army officials said its fighters successfully targeted the Russian search helicopter with anti-tank weaponry.

The insurgent group is among the recipients of US Tow missiles, among other armaments, designed to bolster it against regime forces.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-armed-syrian-rebels-hit-russian-helicopter-with-missile-as-it-searched-for-downed-plane-pilots-a6746846.html

---

[iandhr]

1. There are conflicting reports of the story.

The WaPo is saying the plane was shot down by Turkey.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-downs-russian-military-aircraft-near-syrias-border/2015/11/24/9e8e0c42-9288-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

[PersonNumber503602]

2. The plane was shot down by Turkey, but the helicopter sent to recover its pilots

was shot down by rebels

[leftynyc]

9. Two different events

Turkey shot down a warplane. This is a about a helicopter that was sent out to find the pilots who ejected.

[iandhr]

11. Ah ok

I misunderstood but I got it know. I believe turkey claims the plane violated their airspace went But whether or not that's accurate is another story

[Rotegard]

20. US armed Turkman-Rebels

The anti-government forces fired on and reportedly killed the pilots while they were descending in parachutes after ejecting from their burning bomber. If true this is a war crime. Russians reaction to this is going to be fury.

[Renew Deal]

26. There is speculation that the Turkmen rebels were armed by the Turks

Or they may actually be Turkish agents.

[SoapBox]

3. ...what a mess.

Everybody is just shoot'n at anything.

[PersonNumber503602]

8. Well the rebels are kinda expected to shoot at the Russians

since the Russians have been bombing them. That usually how these sort of things work. Turkey on the other hand probably shouldn't be shooting down Russian jets for a fairly minor airspace violation. Too much risk for too little gain. I also hope we don't find out that they did in some effort to protect ISIS :/

[berni_mccoy]

4. Not good.

[Ford_Prefect]

5. The OP refers to a HELICOPTER that was searching for the pilots of that plane.

By Hugh Naylor, Andrew Roth and Daniela Deane November 24 at 10:47 AM Follow @HughNaylor Follow arothwp
BEIRUT — Turkish warplanes shot down a Russian jet Tuesday that Turkey said violated its airspace on the border with Syria, a major escalation in the Syrian conflict that could further strain relations between Russia and the West.

Russian officials confirmed that a Russian Su-24 attack aircraft was shot down, but insisted it had not violated the airspace of Turkey, a member of the NATO alliance.

Later, a Russian rescue helicopter was damaged by a rebel missile in Syria after picking up one of the two pilots who apparently ejected from the fire-engulfed plane, a Syrian activist group reported. A separate video purportedly posted by rebels appeared to show the body of the second pilot.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/turkey-downs-russian-military-aircraft-near-syrias-border/2015/11/24/9e8e0c42-9288-11e5-8aa0-5d0946560a97_story.html

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. Pew pew

pray Gawd ISIS don't capture a Russian pilot and put him in a cage. Putin will nuke Raqqah, then go have an afternoon snack.

[KingCharlemagne]

12. Or Ankara (ISIS enablers) before dinner - nt

[pampango]

14. It's complicated. The Russians were bombing Turkmen rebels who are fighting ISIS.

Who's the 'enabler'? Russia seems to be both bombing ISIS and those who are fighting ISIS.

[pampango]

7. Reports are that Russian planes have been bombing Turkmen rebels who are fighting ISIS near

the border between Syria and Turkey. The Russian plane may have been bombing Turkmen again today. Turkmen rebels were obviously morally wrong to kill defenseless pilots but their anger is hard to discount.

[PersonNumber503602]

10. The Turkmen have also been fighting Assad forces too, right?

If so, that makes them fair game for the Russians who are propping up their allied dictator. What a CF.

[pampango]

13. You are right. Assad and Russian forces have are successfully attacking Turkmen villages

(rather than concentrating on ISIS) so it is 'logical' for the Russians to bomb the Turkmen in that sense.

[truth2power]

19. In regard to your observation that Russian actions are "logical"..

In early October, in an article expressing US concerns about Russia bombing not only ISIL but also the so-called "moderate opposition to Assad", the Russian Defense Ministry submitted a rather droll reply, as follows:

"The response of the representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry is unclear, but apparently, the general sense was that 'We cannot discriminate between the different shades of 'crap'. So we will hammer everyone who shoots at the soldiers of the legitimate government of Syria, at whose request we are here." <emphasis added>

I am continually amazed at the Russian ability to reduce a complex argument to its essence.

[pampango]

21. I do not accept the "We will bomb anyone that the Syrian government asks us to bomb'

principle. Neither would I accept that the US should bomb anyone and everyone that some other government asks us to bomb.

Neither Russia nor the US can escape responsibility for its what they bomb - hospitals, civilian villages, weddings, etc. - by saying "the government that invited us told us to bomb that target". I trust you would not accept that argument from neither the US Defense Department nor the Russian Defense Ministry.

The Russian Foreign Minister has stated that the "moderate opposition to Assad" are not terrorists (hence not "crap&quot I would hope. The Bush bromide of "you are with us (Bush or Assad) or you are with the terrorists" is no more convincing in Syria than it was after 9/11 in the US.

I am continually amazed at the Russian ability to reduce a complex argument to its essence.

That may say more about the reader than it does about Russians' amazing ability to reduce complex problems to simple solutions. Mr Trump is also good at eliminating nuance from the discussion of complex problems and boiling them down to simple solutions (their 'essence' as it were).

[truth2power]

22. "That's not what it says, at all. Read it again.

No one is saying ".. that the US should bomb anyone and everyone that some other government asks us to bomb."

Syria is a sovereign country with a duly elected legitimate leader. As such, and under international law, they requested Russia to come in and assist them in defeating the terrorists who are over-running the country and turning everything into chaos.

Russia was invited, unlike the US, who just barged in and started bombing everything to smithereens because, well, we're exceptional and all.

Here's where I see Russia reducing an idea to its essence, because the US seemed deliberately obtuse about what is and isn't a terrorist, muddying the waters, so to speak, by talking about a multitude of iterations of terrorists/rebels. Like trying to explain a simple concept to someone with a cognitive disability, they finally reduced it to, "we will hammer everyone who shoots at the soldiers of the legitimate government of Syria."

Seems clear to me. And it doesn't include hospitals, villages and weddings, which are unlikely to be shooting at the Syrian Military from their beds or while walking down the aisle. Anyway, the Americans have been taking care of bombing these entities, quite nicely, with no help from the Russians.

In any case, the "essence" concept isn't about problem/solution. It's about trying to convey an idea by saying something many different ways until someone gets it. I stand by what I said on that.

As far as the "moderate opposition to Assad" not being terrorists, I seem to remember someone (maybe it was Lavrov), being willing to stipulate that the above would not be deemed to be terrorists. Problem is, that they asked the US to tell them who and where these groups are. They got no response.

Just my opinion, but with the continual shape-shifting and re-branding of these guys, bad yesterday, good today, I don't know how anyone can keep them straight.

That Russian statement was spot-on. "Brevity is the soul of wit" as the Bard said.

[Nihil]

23. +1 on that too! (n/t)

[joshcryer]

24. ISIS is not represented under international law.

Anyone who has a beef with ISIS can go after ISIS without contravening Syria's legitimacy.

The key point is that Russia doesn't give a shit about ISIS and the US and even Turkey and France have been turning a blind eye to ISIS.

Now Russia says they're going after terrorists, but it's not ISIS.

After Turkey was bombed and France was bombed, they stopped turning a blind eye and are now focused on ISIS (because clearly the turning a blind eye thing won't work).

Russia still doesn't care about ISIS as much even though ISIS took down one of its planes, Russia thinks that shoring up support for Assad against other groups will help them take ISIS.

But as Turkey and France have shown, that is simply not the case. Turning a blind eye to ISIS won't work.

Russia will have another terrorist attack and Russia will eventually have to come around on ISIS. Until that point their efforts to stop a anti-Assad forces will be futile unless they commit boots on the ground.

Air wars don't solve everything.

[pampango]

25. "... with a duly elected legitimate leader". North Korea has one of those, too.

Mr. Assad and Mr. Kim will both tell you that having a father who is an absolute dictator, names you as his successor, then dies, is a much more effective route to absolute power than is being "duly elected".

North Korea is a sovereign country, too and has a right to defend itself. That does not mean that the Russians, the Chinese, the Americans or anyone else should come to their defense if their citizens ever revolt. No one came to the aid of the dictators in Tunisia, Egypt or Libya in 2011.

Syria is more appealing to Russia, because it, unlike the other countries, provides them with the rights to have a naval base on their soil. If Russia would say, "Our #1 national interest in Syria is maintaining our naval base. Mr. Assad has assured us that he will do that and no one in the Syrian government will change what he wants. We will hammer everyone who shoots at the soldiers of the legitimate government of Syria", I would respect their honesty.

If one does not see that Assad is dictator who inherited his dictatorship from his dictator father, I want a pair of those made-in-North-Korea glasses. Assad is the legally legitimate leader of Syria. The world is full of dictators who rule their countries. Every other country has to deal with that reality. They are legally legitimate but hardly morally legitimate, at least in the eyes of most liberals.

... the US seemed deliberately obtuse about what is and isn't a terrorist, muddying the waters, so to speak, by talking about a multitude of iterations of terrorists/rebels.

Is this an iteration of Bush's infamous, "You are with us or you are with the terrorists"? From the first of the protests in 2011 Mr. Assad has claimed that any opposition to him were terrorists. In his black-or-white world, you are either with me or against me. If the latter, I will arrest you, imprison you, torture you and kill you. His strategy has not worked as well as he had hoped. Now here we are where "you are either with Assad or you are a terrorist."

As far as the "moderate opposition to Assad" not being terrorists, I seem to remember someone (maybe it was Lavrov), being willing to stipulate that the above would not be deemed to be terrorists. Problem is, that they asked the US to tell them who and where these groups are. They got no response.

Russia spends as much, or more, time bombing non-ISIS rebels and that is no accident. Providing them who and where they are would not seem like a good strategy. I doubt that Mr. Assad is providing the location of his forces to the other side, either.

[truth2power]

27. Good morning, pampango..

I just finished watching FM Lavrov's press conference. Link: https://www.rt.com/news/323404-lavrov-syria-s24-turkey/

A lot of good information, and regarding your statements about rebels vs. terrorists. I took notes.

However, I am waay behind schedule with tasks for family gathering tomorrow. I must stay off the computer. Will get back to you later.

[truth2power]

15. I'm gratified..

that at least one news (sic) source in the UK had the temerity to refer to this particular brand of thugs as U.S. Armed Syrian rebels (err....terrorists). Just, Wow!! The Empire of Chaos isn't gonna like that.

We've been arming and supporting ISIS and all its iterations since day one. Likewise, all our satellites and such couldn't see that long line of black-flag-waving goons in their Toyota trucks, snaking across the desert.

And now that Russia is getting the job done, the US (courtesy of the PBS News Hour) reports on US bombing of ISIS oil tanker trucks, while showing the Russian footage of same. Where's the retraction? But I digress...

Putin is pissed!

May those brave Russian pilots RIP.

* * *

Oh yeah... Syrian Observatory for Human Rights - run by one man from his UK home.

https://www.rt.com/news/317372-nimrod-kamer-syrian-observatory/

[jamzrockz]

16. Speaking truth to power

This is not going to end well for the terror supporters.

[truth2power]

18. Yep. I was just over at Sputnik News and the lede is

"Turkey has entered the war on the side of the Islamic State, the Vice President of the Italian Senate Roberto Calderoli said..."

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151124/1030680429/turkey-isil-war-su24.html#ixzz3sQoJ88io

His view is in contradiction to that of the official Italian govt. stance, but still...

Turkey is going to have to decide whether they're with the terrorists or with those who are trying to defeat them.

Time to fish or cut bait.

[polly7]

17. Yes.

One thing you won't see here is much sympathy for those pilots and their families, just as there was very little for the Russian airliner's 224 victims.

Yes, may they RIP.

[Sunlei]

28. anti-assadsshoot at what they can reach near the ground. Russian ground troops have it the worse.

anti-assads and IS are very skilled at attacking ground troops.

I hope Putin has a good medical care system for his military ground troops. PTSD and a lot of head injuries from driving over/walking over those cheap booby traps.

[yurbud]

29. Since Putin is playing propaganda about as well West the whole thing is dizzying

[yurbud]

30. it's the exact opposite of World War II when US and nazi propaganda

Dovetailed nicely into a coherent picture