Russia says jet shot down near Turkey-Syria border

[MowCowWhoHow III]

Source: The Guardian

Russia’s defence ministry says an SU-24 fighter jet has been shot down near Syria’s border with Turkey.

Turkey said its fighter jets have shot down a warplane after it violated Turkey’s airspace. The jet was warned 10 times in the space of five minutes over airspace violations before it was shot down by F-16 fighter jets, the Turkish military said in a statement.

Russia’s defence ministry said: “We are looking into the circumstances of the crash of the Russian jet. The ministry of defence would like to stress that the plane was over the Syrian territory throughout the flight.”

Russia said the Su-24 was downed by artillery fire, but Turkey claimed that its F-16s fired on the Russian plane after it ignored several warning.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-border-with-syria

---

[Ed Suspicious]

1. This whole fucking region. I'm sorry, but too many dicks swinging in the breeze over there.

WWIII is way more scary to me than terrorism.

[Chico Man]

12. It already is WW3

Including the worldwide terrorism.

[harun]

40. I think WW4. I view WW3 was the cold war and China won.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

2. It would be a hell of a note if it was a French fighter jet.

[MowCowWhoHow III]

4. Looks like a Su-24

[Spitfire of ATJ]

5. Bingo...

Russian Su-24 fighter jet shot over Syria - Russian MoD (VIDEO)

https://www.rt.com/news/323215-warplane-crash-syria-turkey/

The GOOD NEWS:

The pilots of the crashed jet managed to eject, Habertürk reported, adding that the plane had reportedly violated Turkish airspace.

[Jesus Malverde]

60. The bad news they were both shot by turkmen as they landed...

In syria.

[CJCRANE]

3. BREAKING: Russian Jet Su-24 Crashed on Syrian-Turkish Border (Sputnik News)

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151124/1030638683/russia-syria-turkey-plane-crash.html

[MowCowWhoHow III]

6. Moscow confirms warplane downed on Syria border by Turkey was Russian Su-24

#UPDATE Moscow confirms warplane downed on Syria border by Turkey was Russian Su-24

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/669075914345480193

[MowCowWhoHow III]

7. Russia says plane shot down by Turkey was in Syrian airspace

#BREAKING Russia says plane shot down by Turkey was in Syrian airspace

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/669076741231525888

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. "One of the pilots was in the hands of Turkmen forces in Syria"

From the Guardian article, as it's updated:

One of the pilots was in the hands of Turkmen forces in Syria who were searching for the other pilot, broadcaster CNN Turk reported, citing local sources.

[coyote]

9. What possible reason would the Turks have to shoot down this plane?

They know damn well that was a Russian plane. It looks like the Turks are supporting ISIS.

[BumRushDaShow]

11. IMHO, it has to do with this

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkey-warns-united-states-and-russia-over-support-to-syria-kurds/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/world/middleeast/turkey-expresses-concern-to-us-and-russia-over-help-for-syrian-kurds.html?_r=0

Turkey has a "nemesis" who is in multiple countries due to where traditional Kurdistan lies (internally, in Iraq, Iran, Armenia and surprise....Syria).

[jeff47]

105. If the Kurds form Kurdistan, roughly 1/3rd of Turkey will try to secede to join it

So Turkey has a very vested interest in not allowing the Kurds to become powerful.

[BumRushDaShow]

169. Yup. nt

[leftynyc]

13. They warned the plane

10 times in 5 minutes that it was in Turkish airspace. I don't know for sure but I think this kind of thing can be proven with radar. But it certainly wouldn't be the first time they APPEAR to be turning their eyes away from isis behavior. These terrorists have been using the Turkish border to get into Syria. Turkey being a NATO member makes this a complication we did not need.

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. The radar track they've released makes the incursion look a lot less than 5 minutes

https://twitter.com/CNNTURK_ENG/status/669098577524822016/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

For a scale:



I'd say it looks like they crossed that tongue of land about a mile across. Even if going at a slow speed for a military jet - 360 mph, say - that's about 10 seconds, not 5 minutes.

[coyote]

23. Yup, just as I thought.

The first casualty of war is normally the truth.

[leftynyc]

26. Like I said

a complication that we and NATO do not need. I'm also pretty sure you have to go a ways out from land (have no idea how many miles/kilometers before you're not in a country's airspace.

[Massacure]

172. The number I heard was 17 seconds.

I read an article earlier today that US Radar showed two Russian jets enter Turkey's airspace. One traveled for something like 1.3 miles and the other about 1.1 miles over the course of 17 seconds. One of the jets left Turkey's airspace in flames...

[restorefreedom]

33. right anout isis imo. this is about the kurds and turkey

not wanting to fight someone that is keeping the kurds busy. turkey has the 8th largest military in the world...they could crush isis like a venemous spider if they wanted to. they don't want to. i would like to see how they handle it if a country invokes the nato pact and asks for their help.

this was inexusable and completely obvious. imo.

and it will get worse.

[jamzrockz]

88. I guess its time for Syria and Russia

to give NATO and Turkey their own warning and start picking those ISIS support planes off the air. These fuckers should know that Russia is there to fighting the terrorists stationed near the Turkish border. And they still shoot it down.

So now when they get turned into a giant glass parking lot, they cant say they weren't warned.

[leftynyc]

104. You sound very bloodthirsty

Was that your intention?

[jeff47]

106. ISIS isn't in that part of Syria. Russia was dropping bombs on anti-Assad rebels, not ISIS.

So no, Russia is not fighting "terrorists stationed near the Turkish border". Russia is acting as Assad's air force.

Also, you should know that this:

So now when they get turned into a giant glass parking lot

Would require a US retaliatory strike on Russia, due to our treaties with Turkey. Which would then result in Russia launching a strike against the US.

Congratulations. Your braggadocio just nuked the entire planet.

[jamzrockz]

124. They are all terrorists

They share the same space, they have the same supply routes via Turkey.

Would require a US retaliatory strike on Russia, due to our treaties with Turkey. Which would then result in Russia launching a strike against the US.

One you start nuking, there is no going back. So I hope he put it in the calculation. I really hope the west would not sacrifice the world for Syrian moderate beheaders. I really hope they would back down when Putin puts his foot down. The shenanigans going on in Syria has to stop now.

[jeff47]

125. You're the one who started nuking a NATO ally.

And no, we are not going to just ignore a "casual nuking".

[jamzrockz]

129. Gonna clarify

I will only nuke if the NATO powers retaliate after the Russians with invitation of the Syrians shot down their war planes. I really hope the west wouldn't put everything on the line to protect their illegal Syrian adventure.

[Codeine]

108. Idiotic.

Go away.

[jamzrockz]

127. I will go away

This is my anger stage which would be followed by depression stage and I don't care about the politics and the world anymore. The cycle lasts for about 2 weeks where I won't log into any news website. But the addiction will come calling and I will be back.

The same thing happened when the Patriots beat the Seahawks in the super bowl last year

[That Guy 888]

14. Turkey is a member of NATO, and have warned the Russians repeatedly about violating their airspace.

Last edited Tue Nov 24, 2015, 07:24 AM - Edit history (1)

Turkey isn't supporting daesh. Too many combatants in too small an area. In Iraq the Kurds are the most unified, but Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and I believe Syria are worried that they will try to make Kurdistan an independent nation out of their territories. Iran is gaining power with it's chief rival Iraq struggling for it's existence, but Iran is majority Shia, but the majority of Muslims in the region are Sunni and they get along about as well as Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Syria itself has daesh, a fractured rebellion, and Assad who's done too much damage too realistically stay in power, but so far is too strong to remove from power. Meanwhile Russia worries if Assad leaves, they would lose their major military base in the Mediterranean Sea.

It makes me think of the game jenga and bush tried to pull off a spectacular move and collapsed everything, destabilizing the entire region.

[Recursion]

17. ^^ Too many fighters in too small an area.

There are at least five "sides" in this war, and the goals of the various coalitions are only tenuously connected.

[CJCRANE]

18. The jury is out on Turkey's role

in the formation of Isis.

[Demeter]

15. Egodan is clinically insane

and he should be cut off at the neck.

[Jefferson23]

31. I agree, he is delusional...fucking off the charts. n/t

[harun]

45. What would you do? Let a foreign powers fighter jets fly over your country all they want?

[forsaken mortal]

137. It was there for less than a minute

Transgressions like this happen all of the time between countries. It's usually not policy to just fire on planes when the countries aren't even at war. It was a tragic, hotheaded action by Turkey and I doubt Russia is going to let this sort of thing happen again without consequences.

[harun]

143. You'd think differently if Mexico called in Russian fighter jets to buzz the border of Texas.

[Adrahil]

171. This isn't the first time this has happened.

No planes have been shot down previously, but Turkey DID. Warn last time they take action the next time it happened.

You'd think the Russians would have kept their jets away from Turkish airspace.

[harun]

42. Lot's of reasons. Turkey lives in a very rough neighborhood.

There's a lot more going on in Syria than just ISIS:

[link:

|

[jamzrockz]

86. It looks like?

Do you know the ISIS supply line originates in Turkey? these guys are clearly 100% behind ISIS.

[jeff47]

103. The plane was bombing anti-Assad rebels, not ISIS.

ISIS does not control that part of Syria. Anti-Assad rebels do. Those rebels happen to also be ethnically Turkish (Turkmen).

The majority of Russia's bombing has been against rebels, not ISIS.

[Aria36]

115. Why doesn't Russia, Assad et al

bomb ISIS? Do Assad & ISIS have some sort of deal/truce?

[CJCRANE]

142. Russia is bombing Isis, that's the problem.

Their sponsors aren't too happy about that.

[pampango]

155. Sometimes they are bombing ISIS. At other times they are bombing those who are fighting ISIS like

the Turkmen that shot down the helicopter. To the best of my knowledge, the US is only bombing ISIS in Syria and not anyone who is fighting against ISIS.

[CJCRANE]

170. Does the Syrian govt have a right to defend itself

against rebels or insurgents?

[pampango]

187. Yes. And Russia should be honest that it's main goal is supporting a dictator that grants them bases

in his country. Attacking ISIS is peripheral to their main goal.

Neither Russia nor the US should hand over relinquish control over who and what their military attacks to the wishes and whims of governments in other countries.

[Aria36]

176. The sponsors are

supposedly Saudi Arabia & Qatar... but you seem to be implying it's also Turkey & even the US?

[Recursion]

16. Merde. This could get really dangerous really fast.

Not that it isn't already, but you know what I mean.

[KingCharlemagne]

35. Moscow could incinerate Istanbul with the push of a button. Let us

Hope that president Putin does not heed the counsel of his nationalist hardliners.

[harun]

43. Turkey is a NATO ally. Which means an attack on Turkey put's Russia at war with 28 countries.

[joshcryer]

46. And they have control over the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles.

Russia won't do a damn thing but complain, Turkey was showing force. It sucks but it is what it is.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Overheard in 10 Downing St., ca. August 1914. "That Princip is just

Some annoying little Serbian pissant. Russia want do a damn thing but complain."

[joshcryer]

55. Putin isn't stupid.

[KingCharlemagne]

56. Truer words have seldom been uttered here. I sure hope He

does a JFK vis-a-vis the Cuban Missile Crisis and rejects the advice of his hardliners.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. A military historian points out Putin needs to send his fuel via the Straits

There's Not Much Putin Can Do About This Turkey Situation

But Putin is up against a wall, and frankly, I do not know where he may go. See, his whole "military" campaign in Syria is based out of one naval base and one airport in northwest Syria.

Investigative reporters are repeatedly reminded three words: "Follow the money." Always good advice. But military strategists also have a similar saying: "Tactics wins battles, but logistics wins wars." So how does this apply to Putin and his efforts in a place that does not immediately adjoin his own borders?

Well, yeah, he can provide food and armaments to those bases he has in Syria via airlift. That is possible, given the fairly small amount required to support Russia's really limited forces in Syria, and even what they bring in to support Assad. But there is one immutable thing about Putin's Russian forces in Syria, one that they can't avoid. They need fuel. This is an issue, why? Because to supply the amount of fuel needed by an air campaign requires more than just an airlift. It has to come via sea. Getting fuel from Russia itself to the Russian bases on the coast of Syria involves getting from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Bit of a problem that, since that means going through the Dardanelles. Turkey, in short, owns Russia on that count. Unless Russia wants to start a shooting war with all of NATO.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39974/turkey-russia-fighter-plane/

Technically, he could send it out of St. Petersburg and all the way round Europe, though that will get frozen in soon, I think (or via Kaliningrad, perhaps? Ice-free all year round, according to Wikipedia). But not exactly convenient.

[joshcryer]

141. Yep, that's what I was getting at.

Maps often tell the story better than anything.

[grahamhgreen]

158. Russia will cut off their gas, and winter is coming.

[joshcryer]

182. No they won't.

Too much money to be lost.

[harun]

197. Exactly. It will be tough talk, but when it comes to money, suprise

Russia won't say no to it.

Just like when the Saudi's get screwed over, their first statement is usually "We don't use witholding oil as a weapon."

[grahamhgreen]

201. Looks like you're right:

http://www.todayszaman.com/business_no-gas-cut-to-turkey-after-downed-jet-russian-agency-cites-official_405181.html

[joshcryer]

205. Turkey pays its bills.

[KingCharlemagne]

54. Turkey is a NATO ally . . . except when she is ISIS' ally. With

allies like that, who needs enemies???

[joshcryer]

59. Allies is the wrong word and certainly not since Oct.

Turkey has been ambivalent about ISIS because it's fighting the Kurds / PKK, and Turkey considers the Kurds / PKK to be terrorists in and of themselves, so ISIS was a useful idiot in their fight against the Kurds (this is very similar as to how ISIS was a useful idiot all sides with regards to fighting Assad or the FSA).

But since Oct. Turkey has changed tack due to the bombings that happened there (killed 97 people, many people forgot about it already). Turkey has since been doing raids on ISIS targets in Syria thanks to US F-15s we gave them like two weeks ago.

It is bullshit to call Turkey ISIS "allies." Especially over one downed plane. For the one downed Russian plane the US gave Turkey a dozen superior F-15s. Hell, it may even be the case that the very F-15s we gave them were used to take down the Russian plane!

[Jesus Malverde]

61. Turkey is well documented to a supporter of ISIS.

They are a conduit for thousands of fighters. Stood by during the battle of Kobani and have for at least a year been an outlet for millions of dollars of oil from Syria sold by ISIS.

Erdogan is in bed with the terrorists.

[KingCharlemagne]

71. But I thought Turkey is our Ally. Would that mean we

are also in bed with the terrorists??

[polly7]

72. +1,000,000. Yes, they are. nt.

[jamzrockz]

97. The only good thing

about this awful news story is that world will now know that a NATO member is going to great lengths to defend ISIS militants fighting near its border. This was just rumors before but I think Putin will be talking now and a lot of people will start taking it seriously.

The west are allies of ISIS. Not one country, not even a single bank institution has been sanctioned for supporting ISIS. But we have at least 3 new sanctions on Syrian govt, Hezbollah fighting ISIS.

[jeff47]

110. ISIS is not in that part of Syria. So no, they were not defending ISIS militants.

That area is controlled by anti-Assad rebels. Who Russia was bombing.

[jamzrockz]

118. It makes no difference

The Russians never said they were in Syria to fight ISIS and ISIS alone. When you have a bunch of militants (don't particularly care for names) helping ISIS with weapons, occupying their supply route, lobbing artillery strikes into civilian areas, you have to attack them or else you can't defeat ISIS.

So please stop telling me that it is not ISIS, you think the Syrians being terrorized by western backed rebels care if they operate under the ISIS banner or not?

[harun]

145. Bullshit he is. Erdogan just has a bigger problem with Kurdish rebels. So he

isn't going to take on another enemy.

[Sunlei]

147. yes, a Nato ally and anti-Assad. Thats why russias jet was there, russia targets any anti-assads

[PersonNumber503602]

90. What worries me is that shit has a way of going on autopilot.

[Igel]

144. Less often than billed.

Often it's used to curry nationalism and rally-round-the-flag fervor, esp. in centralized governments or by authoritarian leaders playing to "patriotism."

Riding that wave of fervor is like riding a tiger. It's easy to lose control and instead of governing find yourself pushed. Then the choice is to destroy your career in politics and as ruler or give in to nationalism. It takes a big man to be humble enough choose the former course, esp. if he's into the nationalist fervor himself. Politicians aren't noted for their humility.

[KingCharlemagne]

149. Sort of what happened in August 1914. The various leaderships of the major powers wer trying to find

ways to stand down. Alas, the masses in each country had their blood lust on. That's not to give Kaiser Wilhelm a pass, but to offer validation of your point.

[grahamhgreen]

164. We need to kick Turkey out of NATO, they are allied with ISIL.

[CJCRANE]

19. Russian Su-24 fighter jet shot down over Syria - Russian MoD (VIDEO)

https://www.rt.com/news/323215-warplane-crash-syria-turkey/

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. 1 pilot reported dead

BREAKING: Video sent by Syrian rebel group to Reuters claims to show Russian pilot immobile on ground, official from group says he is dead

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/669104634347261952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[Major Hogwash]

22. Putin must accept responsiblity for this incident.

If he wasn't such a warmongering asshole, this never would have happened.

[coyote]

24. What???

The legitimate government of Syria asked for Russia´s help. This is Turkey playing with WWIII.

[KingCharlemagne]

37. Who the Fuck does Turkey think it is, the Ottoman Empire? Jesus

H. Christ, this is some seriously scary shit. People seem to have forgotten that the Russian Federation is a NUCLEAR POWER. FFS

[snooper2]

64. Putin getting put in his place makes some people have a sad

[KingCharlemagne]

65. we shall see who has the final sad. my guess is it wont be Putin. I see

a lot of collateral Turkish damage in the near future.

[harun]

44. Legitimate government of Syria?

[link:|

[Comrade Grumpy]

50. Recognized as such by the UN. n/t

[pampango]

73. Legally 'legitimate' not morally 'legitimate' in the eyes of liberals. Dictators (even secular ones)

are not a liberal vision of 'legitimate' government.

[EX500rider]

167. Yeah I know, I've heard that several times lately..

"Assad is the legitimate government of Syria"

Sure in the same way Idi Amin was the legit government of Uganda...

[Aria36]

84. More & more

I'm wondering why the US is trying to topple Assad. Yes, he's a horrible dictator. So was Saddam Hussein. Like Hussein, Assad is/was a secular dictator. If liberals didn't support the war in Iraq, why would we support the war in Syria?

[Igel]

146. Two reasons, as far as I can tell.

The first is that the rebellion was in large measure homegrown, fomented originally by the urban educated. The revolt was to lead to a progressive, secular government led by technocrats. While this doesn't appeal to the SWP branch of the DU party, it does appeal to the technocrat (D) branch.

It also appealed to the "they're just like us because they have a similar label" crowd. You still see that kind of label-as-reality thinking.

The second is that it wasn't fostered by an (R), but by a (D) president and multiple NATO leaders left of center. The Iraq was was successfully ended by Obama's deft negotiating skills, the Arab Spring was launching secular, liberal democracies across the Arab world (making Obama glorious in spreading peace and democracy where Bush II only spread war and depleted uranium).


It was the same when Bush II was in power and Pelosi went to Damascus and declared Assad a partner in reform. He was the same arrogant dictator then he was in 2010, but the label mattered and opposition to Bush II's desire for Assad to be driven from power was important. Not because Assad was a good guy--the label was absurd, even though easily accepted by some--but because politics.

[Aria36]

173. But are those reasons valid?

Thanks for the informative response. That helps explain why liberals supported it (at the time), but it doesn't seem like either of those reasons are valid at this point. The rebellion initially seemed progressive & secular, but now seems dominated by radical Islamists. Many of the initial Arab Spring successes (Tunisia, Egypt, Libya) are now themselves struggling w/rebellions, terrorism & civil war.

I wonder if the US public was suckered into this in the same way we were suckered into the Iraq War. Freedom, democracy! It does seem like we like to view these uprisings as progressive revolutions like the American Revolution, instead of, say, Iran's revolution. The Iranian revolution had some secular progressives too, but the Islamic fundamentalists ended up taking over. In the Middle East, I wonder whether Iran's example might be the more predictive one.

[Adrahil]

92. Last I checked, that did NOT include authority to violate Turkish airspace.

This isn't the first time this has happened either.

I'm not sure it was smart shooting down that airplane, but the responsibility is on the Russians officer and or politicians who ordered that plane so close to the Turkish border (assuming the violation was "accidental&quot

[KingCharlemagne]

36. WTF????? - nt

[FlatBaroque]

41. Perfect user name

[Jesus Malverde]

62. Almost a vanity account name...nt

[MowCowWhoHow III]

25. NATO calls 'extraordinary meeting' after Turkey downs Russian jet

NATO calls 'extraordinary meeting' after Turkey downs Russian jet

Brussels (AFP) - NATO allies will hold an "extraordinary" meeting Tuesday at Ankara's request to discuss Turkey's shooting down of a Russian fighter jet along the Syrian border, an alliance official said.

"At the request of Turkey, the North Atlantic Council will hold an extraordinary meeting at (1600 GMT). The aim of this extraordinary NAC is for Turkey to inform Allies about the downing of a Russian airplane," the official told AFP.

The North Atlantic Council consists of ambassadors from the 28 NATO member states.

http://news.yahoo.com/nato-calls-extraordinary-meeting-turkey-downs-russian-jet-115205832.html

Doubly extraordinary as Brussels is under a complete ISIS related lockdown.

[MowCowWhoHow III]

27. Russian Pres. Putin: Describes Incident As ‘Backstabbing By Accomplices Of Terrorists’

Russian Pres. Putin: Describes Incident As ‘Backstabbing By Accomplices Of Terrorists’

https://twitter.com/livesquawk/status/669135609613713408

[neverforget]

28. Uh oh. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong now, but how

the events unfold. Let's hope cooler heads prevail unlike 101 years ago.....

[Adsos Letter]

120. ^THIS^

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. unconfirmed reports that both pilots were killed

There are unconfirmed reports that both pilots were killed after parachuting from the Russian jet.

Charles Lister, analyst from BrookingsDoha, said both pilots were killed citing an anti-Assad rebel source.

Charles Lister
?@Charles_Lister
Rebel FSA source:

The 2nd pilot of #Russia’s Su-24 is also dead.

12:03 PM - 24 Nov 2015

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/669124146798968832?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates#block-56545c41e4b00f67a4bed947

[restorefreedom]

48. cnn just reporting

that someone was shooting one of the pilots parachuting down.

i am speechless

[muriel_volestrangler]

185. Update: one pilot is alive, and was rescued by the Syrian army

Missing Russian jet pilot 'alive and well'

A Russian pilot who went missing after his jet was shot down by Turkey while taking part in air strikes over Syria has been picked up by the Syrian army, Russia says.

The pilot is "alive and well" at a Russian air base in Syria, it says.

The plane's second pilot and a marine involved in a rescue were killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485

[joshcryer]

30. Putin pushers frothing for WWIII on Twitter.

Fortunately the world is not some CNN war time reality show and that's not going to happen.

[Jesus Malverde]

63. Your not the most insightful analyst..nt

[polly7]

76. WWIII was started with the invasion of Iraq, if you're going to blame anyone. nt.

[grahamhgreen]

163. Absolutely.

[blackspade]

32. Wonderful.

This will make things so much better!
Let's expand our involvement and send in ground forces!


Great job by the Turks giving Putin a huge propoganda opportunity.
Idiots.

[Ichingcarpenter]

34. Finally We Have Our Own Air Force

:large

[KingCharlemagne]

38. Great comic. very a propos. - nt

[ozone_man]

47. Nailed it! n/t

[Adrahil]

91. That might be accurate if Russia were limiting itself to ISIS targets. They aren't. nt

[Aria36]

93. Who are they targeting?

Is it just the Sunni rebels in the South?

Also, is Assad actually attacking ISIS? Some people have been claiming that Assad tolerates/encourages ISIS.

[Adrahil]

96. They have been hitting ethnic Turkmen near the Turkish border.

http://www.dailysabah.com/politics/2015/11/23/russia-assad-strike-at-turkmens-giving-daesh-a-free-hand-in-syria-1448218954

These are not Daesh (ISIS) fighters.

[jamzrockz]

98. But why in the world would they attack ethnic turkmen near the Turkish border?

This makes absolutely no sense. Also it doesn't have to be Daesh, a few weeks ago, a non Saesh group bombed a university in Latakia killing 24 people. What difference does it make if the terrorists is not flying a Daesh flag? You attack the people attacking you, full stop

[jeff47]

114. Because Russia is acting as Assad's air force, and those Turkmen are fighting Assad.

What difference does it make if the terrorists is not flying a Daesh flag? You attack the people attacking you, full stop

Yes, Assad is attacking the people who are attacking him. With the help of his superpower ally.

[jamzrockz]

121. This is amazing

You mean to tell me that Turkey is backing Turkmen militants attacking the Syrian people inside Syria? and Turkey is mad that a Syrian ally is attacking said militants inside Syria?

I find the double standards really astonishing. We chastise the Russians for attacking western backed moderate terrorists when the west supports fighters who are attacking a Russian backed Syrian govt. If its such a bad thing to attack ones ally, maybe the west shouldn't have sent in their fighters to attack the Russian ally in the first place.

Had they minded their own business, this war would have ended years ago with far less death, destruction and displacement of innocent people

[jeff47]

128. Those Turkmen militants are Syrian people.

They're ethnically Turkmen, but they are from Syria. You gonna now rail against Russia attacking the Syrian people inside Syria?

Had they minded their own business, this war would have ended years ago with far less death, destruction and displacement of innocent people

[jamzrockz]

132. I really don't care who they are

All I care is what they are doing. They attack civilian areas, work with ISIS/Al Nusra rebels, transfer weapons to ISIS or fight the legitimate Syrian govt and they get a bomb to the head.

The thought of saving innocent lives make you ? you are one strange fella.

[jeff47]

161. Then why'd you make a huge point about who they are?

fight the legitimate Syrian govt and they get a bomb to the head.

You realize that the "legitimate Syrian government" is Assad's brutal dictatorship, right?

The thought of saving innocent lives make you ? you are one strange fella.

The was over the utterly absurd claim.

[jamzrockz]

165. Oh

Lemme guess, he wasn't brutal when he was having tea with Kerry. Brutal my ass, tell me what he did that made him brutal before the CIA inspired uprising?

[jeff47]

166. He's been brutal for decades. Just like Saddam and Gadaffi.

They were "our friends" when it was useful, and we overlooked their actions.

They were "not our friends" when it was no longer useful, and we started paying attention to their crimes against humanity.

[jamzrockz]

168. I will tell you what I think

I think the west is the most brutal of all dictators. Yes, they treat Americans nice but to the world especially those in the ME, the West only bring death and destruction. So if you care for these people and don't want to see them brutalized, tell your govts to mind their own fucking business.

[polly7]

175. +1,000,000. Every bit of this horror is because of our brutal foreign policies

and destruction of sovereign nations whose govt's are not beneficial to us.

These pilots and that rescue worker are just more collateral damage. It's beyond sickening.

[joshcryer]

138. The Turkmen are fighting the Kurds.

And that shit was going on since long before the civil war.

[Igel]

148. Here's one bit of hypocrisy.

Putin's gone on record as supporting Russians everywhere. If you speak Russian, if you feel that you're part of the Russian world or culture, you're Russian and Russia has an obligation to defend you.

It's been used to threaten the Baltics, it was justification for Crimea, and it's been invoked numerous times in the Donbass.

Erdogan said that Russia was bombing the Turks' kinsmen. Putin should understand this reasoning very, very well--it's the same ethnicist reasoning that Russia uses to say it's justified in military operations and covert or not-so-covert support elsewhere.

When the Turks settled in Asia Minor, when the Ottoman Empire practiced its ethnic policies, groups settled (or were resettled) in various places. Ethnicities didn't always have contiguous borders, and often the Ottomans would resettle "safe" people among renegades to help pacify the area, or pick up and move trouble makers to spread them and out neutralize them. Circassians were moved to Syria and Lebanon, Armenians distributed even before the genocide, etc., etc. Turkmen were also picked up and moved, or felt free to move.

It was an old Horde trick, as well. One that Russians also picked up from the Muslim Horde. When Novgorod fell to Ivan the Terrible, he scattered the citizens across N. Russia to avoid a concentration of opposition.

[Aria36]

100. OK

So Russia is hitting Turkmen in Syria at Assad's direction. Are the Turkmen really the biggest threat to Assad? Why doesn't Assad seem to oppose ISIS directly?

So far...

Russia hits Turkish rebels - doesn't attack ISIS
Turkey hits Russian plane - doesn't attack ISIS
Assad/Syria hits "moderate" Turk rebels & Sunni rebels - doesn't attack ISIS
Saudi Arabia supports Sunni rebels - doesn't attack ISIS

ISIS grows like a tumor & bombs Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Russia etc. No one attacks it. WHY.

[jeff47]

123. Turkey needs ISIS to keep the Kurds from forming their own country.

If Kurdistan is established, about 1/3rd of Turkey will try to secede in order to join it. Turkey needs ISIS to prevent a civil war in Turkey.

The rebels are fighting Assad because he's a brutal asshole. ISIS is not in that part of Syria, so these particular rebels don't have the ability to fight ISIS directly.

Assad is fighting the rebels to keep his head firmly attached to his body.

Russia is acting as Assad's air force, because Russia wants Assad to stay in power so that Russia has an ally and bases in the Mediterranean. The rebels are a greater threat to Assad than ISIS.

Saudi Arabia is busy fighting a proxy war in Yemen against Iran. Also, "rah-rah ISIS" within Saudi Arabia has helped prevent an uprising against the house of Saud.

[joshcryer]

139. Kurds only make up 9% of Turkey's population.

Your numbers are way off, Turkey resists the PKK like Iran resists the PJAK, ie violent resistance movements. Turkey calculated, perhaps wrongly given the Oct 10 bombings that ISIS would erode the several thousand (down from tens of thousands) of PKK fighters and save them the effort. Instead the opposite happened and Turkey is now having to deal with ISIS and a more unified Kurdish region.

Either way we cut it the Kurdish state has to happen, but it damn sure won't be a third of turkey, maybe an eighth at most, more like a tenth.

[jeff47]

160. Land area versus population.

Kurds claim about 1/3rd of Turkey's territory.

[joshcryer]

180. No they don't.

Look at the demographic map.

Such absurdity, anyway, 4th strongest military in the world wouldn't let 10% of the population take 1/3rd the land.

[jeff47]

195. And the way they "wouldn't let" is a civil war. Which they'd really prefer to not fight

Especially since terrorist attacks will probably be a large part of that civil war.

[joshcryer]

198. The PKK already does terrorist attacks.

They are like FARC in Colombia, no hope of becoming a political force any time soon.

[jeff47]

199. You think they'll do fewer if a civil war breaks out? (nt)

[joshcryer]

200. The other 99% of Kurds don't back them...

...for a civil war to be likely.

[Aria36]

179. So ISIS grows while all the other factions weaken

Great. Why do you say that the rebels are a greater threat to Assad than ISIS? ISIS has a huge amount of territory in Syria. Is it just because ISIS's turf is further away from Damascus? There are also plenty of rebel-controlled areas right next to ISIS - it seems like they could fight ISIS if they wanted to.

[jeff47]

196. No, they're trying to play a balancing act and keep both factions weak.

Why do you say that the rebels are a greater threat to Assad than ISIS?

Because the rebels are actually attacking Assad. ISIS hasn't attacked Assad's forces that much.

Also, that huge amount of territory is mostly empty desert. So the rebels actually have more resources with less land area.

There are also plenty of rebel-controlled areas right next to ISIS - it seems like they could fight ISIS if they wanted to.

Assad is an immediate threat. ISIS is less of an immediate threat. ISIS is too busy fighting off the Kurds to mount a major campaign against the rebels.

[joshcryer]

204. That's why ISIS has gotten stronger.

They're trying to get rid of the rebels first because they are a threat to Assad, then they'll go after Assad once he gets stronger. This is going to backfire and Russia is going to have a large scale terrorist attack in the next year or so. They've already had one and are ignoring the consequences by not focusing on ISIS in Syria.

[Jesus Malverde]

202. A lot of ISIS "controlled" area is desert

The Russians are working with the SA to liberate the major population areas like Aleppo. The SA is on the outskirts of raqqa. On all fronts the militia/terrorists/rebels are on the run.

The campaign is going quite well for the SA and its allies. Russians have destroyed more terroriats in two moths than over a year of US bombing has.

[Sunlei]

39. Jets have had couple days of 'open season' on any oil tank type trucks. Jet could have been

'following a tanker' or even lured out there by a fake tanker image.

It doesn't take much technology to lay out a cardboard/fabric tanker image for the drone recon to spot and remove the image before a jet arrives to shoot the tanker.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. Once again, Turkey effectively allies itself with ISIS.

[joshcryer]

57. This is due to Russia bombing ethnic Turkmen villages.

Turkey has been condemning Russia's incursions for awhile now, they shot down a Russian drone late last month. Russia wasn't listening.

One plane isn't going to change the outcome of this war.

And for all the people making fun of Turkey for helping ISIS (in one case the image originates from a far right wing resource), ISIS killed almost 100 people last month in Turkey suicide bombings.

Turkey may have used ISIS as a useful idiot against the Kurds / PKK but to say that they're allied is totally ignorant.

[Adrahil]

94. Don't confuse the Putinistas with facts. nt

[pampango]

95. I saw that too. The Turkmen (ethnic Turks, Syrian citizens) are fighting ISIS. Why bomb them?

They are not even adjacent to any of Assad's forces that I can tell, so they are not even a threat to Assad's army.

Turkey summons Russian envoy over bombing of Turkmens in Syria: PM

Turkey has summoned Russia's ambassador in protest over the "intensive" bombing of Turkmen villages in northern Syria by Russian warplanes, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters on Friday.

In the meeting with the ambassador, Andrei Karlov, Turkey called for an immediate end to the Russian military operation, which is near the Turkish border, the foreign ministry said in a statement.

"It was stressed that the Russian side's actions were not a fight against terror, but they bombed civilian Turkmen villages and this could lead to serious consequences," the foreign ministry said.

Ankara has traditionally expressed solidarity with the Syrian Turkmen, who are Syrians of Turkish descent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-russia-idUSKCN0T91MO20151120

[joshcryer]

112. Be on the watch.

The killing of the pilots and the destruction of the helicopter are being blamed on the Turkmen, among others.

Especially by the twitter pro Putin cadre.

[polly7]

119. Nah ......... the anti-death of two innocent pilots and the loss to their families cadre.

The 'putie hate' blame for anyone outraged and saddened over this is absolutely pathetic.

[Aria36]

89. Because?

I'd like someone w/a clue to patiently explain WTF is going on. Any takers?

[Igel]

151. Only because we're thinking binary.

Either with or against ISIS. Anything more complicated gets flattened to us-versus-them. And Erdogan's situation is complex--defend Turkmen, prevent Kurdish independence, defeat ISIS but also remove the Assad government, keep power in Turkey, and maintain or restore Turkish hegemony over what used to be the Ottoman Turks' backyard.

Sometimes that means not kicking ISIS as hard as we'd like, kicking at those who kick at least slightly at ISIS, supporting enemies of those fighting ISIS. The adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't always true, nor does "friend" actually have much meaning. It can just mean "not somebody I'm going to attack ... today, at least."

[odd_duck]

52. In theory....

In theory, Turkey is supposed to be against the terrorists, not protecting them from Russian planes. Of course, we know Turkey has been supplying ISIS and providing safe passage across the Syrian border as well as safe havens inside Turkey.

[Igel]

152. You're confusing the Russian word "terrorist" with the English word.

They don't necessarily mean the same thing in practice. There's denotation, there's connotation, there's usus (how a word is actually used).

So "knife" has a denotation and a set of connotations. But while we say "to go under the knife" (= surgery), we don't call the knife in the surgeon's hand a knife. We use "scalpel." And we don't refer to the thing used to carve the turkey as a scalpel. The denotations largely overlap, but the range of use doesn't. And you can't explain the difference entirely by "connotation." It's just where the two terms are used, and we do that with all sorts of near synonyms.

A Russian's "terrorist" is not just somebody who engages in political violence against civilians. Terrorists can be regularly formed military divisions using military equipment against a Russian military unit. We'd call those "soldiers" and not "terrorists." Just being opposed to Russia or its allies is enough to be a "terrorist." Which cowardly, stressed translators dutifully translate into English as "terrorist" because it's safe and uncomplicated. (Translating English "terrorist" into Russian is far less problematic.)

We'd probably not call the Turkmen rebels "terrorists." But since they are fighting Russia and Russia's allies, they are "terroristy", even if the English word turns out to be a bad fit. (Not up enough on the activities of this group; perhaps the tribesmen are terrorists and bomb school children and markets. Dunno.)

As for Turkey's supplying ISIS, a lot of that is basically innuendo. Obama's administration supplied Mexican cartel members with guns, and the US continues to supply them. That doesn't mean it's official US policy, or even something that's met with a wink and a nudge. A lot of Turkish areas are boondocks and while under nominal Turkish control not always under close control. Esp. when some smuggling is okay--you just can't tell where, exactly, the weapons wind up. The US had the same problem with money in 2010 and early 2011--a fair amount of $ were going to jihadist organizations, not because the US government promoted this or even tolerated it but because of different priorities.

[restorefreedom]

53. fuckwad john bolton saying it is russias fault

says they don't belong there

he must have forgotten the INVITATION FROM A SOVERIGN NATION for them to be there

i hate republican warhawks!!!!

[KingCharlemagne]

58. Bolton personifies chutzpah- nt

[Nihil]

186. John Bolton has a whole bunch of supporters here on DU too.

"Democratic" my arse.

[restorefreedom]

188. what is weird

is when i read the comment threads elsewhere, news sites for example, the ratio is easily 3/4 saying turkey is wrong. it only seems to be on du from what i can tell. over at kos it might be 50/50 but i am seeing more support for turkey here than anywhere

[bemildred]

189. I've wondered about that myself.

I don't spend a lot of time on comment blogs (except DU), but we do seem to have a lot of perception management going on here, and it was not that way back in the old days. We had big flame wars, but they were not populated with organized herds of commenters posting strange talking points, and using marketing techniques to curry reader assent, it was more spittle-laced and chaotic.

[restorefreedom]

190. well,the president seems to be rolling over for turkey

so if this site is disproportionately pro obama, as would make sense, i can understand the comments to a point. but kos's crowd would also be expected to be pro obama and they are not on board so much wih the talking points.

[bemildred]

191. Obama-love varies widely here and elsewhere, I think.

But I don't think Obama is rolling over for Turkey exactly. It's more like a love-hate kind of thing.

[restorefreedom]

194. i haven't heard his latest comments

but i wish he had been more condemnatory. if turkey wasn't in nato, i think his language would have been much different.

[Agnosticsherbet]

66. Everybody crowding in to fight Daesh should come up with a plan to recognize the White hats from the

black, or we are going to end up in a war against each other.

[KingCharlemagne]

77. I am so channeling August 1914 right now - nt

[restorefreedom]

68. this will be interesting

News Newsdesk ?@SkyNewsBreak
Update - Russian Defence Ministry says it can prove the aircraft shot down by #Turkey was in Syrian airspace throughout its flight

[Aria36]

69. Why would Turkey do this?

Russia is bombing ISIS & Sunni rebels, correct? Is Turkey allied w/the rebels?

[davidn3600]

75. Turkey has a right to defend its airspace

The radar track released by Turkey shows the Russian plane violating the airspace several times.

[Aria36]

82. It doesn't look like several airspace violations

Post #20 has the radar track. It looks like the plane did a brief flyover over a finger of land where Turkey extends into Syria. So I don't buy that explanation.

[daleo]

70. Lots of money to be made smuggling ISIS oil out

Probably a good chunk of that oil was going through Turkish intermediaries. Russia was messing that up. It's oil, so follow the money.

[joshcryer]

80. Everyone is happily taking ISIS oil.

The people working on the tanker trucks aren't ISIS, they're Syrians trying to do their day job under fear of having their heads cut off.

One downed Russian jet is not going to cause the oil to go anywhere it wasn't going before.

Here's an example of one oil smuggler getting sanctioned: http://www.businessinsider.com/revealed-the-oil-middleman-between-the-syrian-regime-and-isis-2015-3

Worked for Assad's government.

If it wasn't for Paris we wouldn't be hitting those trucks. Russia wouldn't be hitting those trucks. They're civilian infrastructure. But now the west has an excuse to hit ISIS's infrastructure hard and they're taking full advantage of it.

[daleo]

156. Why wasn't the west hitting the tankers all along

It is a given in war, that you degrade your enemy's ability to wage war. Obviously, oil money was a huge part of ISIS's ability to wage war. Yet we waited all this time...

[joshcryer]

181. Because of public opinion.

This stuff is civilian infrastructure, before Paris if the US hit this shit people would complain.

[daleo]

183. And yet the U.S. Blows up other countries' infrastructure quite often

Claims about being concerned about public opinion are very flexible.

[coyote]

74. NATO aircraft from NATO nation shooting down a Russian aircraft is an act of war.

What the hell were the rules of engagement?

The Turkish land that was over flown by the Su-24 was 1.4 miles wide
and would be crossed in seconds.

[KingCharlemagne]

79. sure, lets go ahead and just flagrantly provoke

a NUCLEAR POWER! Why, what could possibly go wrong?

[Aria36]

113. Even if the intial plane shootdown could be justified

I don't see how they can justify killing the escaping pilots.

[jamzrockz]

78. This makes sense

The ISIS supporting state is going their best to protect their proxy army using the excuse of Russian jet getting into their air space. I think the Russians should consider pointing on of the nuclear missiles at Turkey. One more stupid move like this and they get it.

[KingCharlemagne]

81. I hear ya, but I sure hope Putin is enough of a mensch to stiff

arm the advocates for nuclear first use. But I hear you.

[joshcryer]

83. LOL

It's such a good thing people with ideas like that aren't in charge of world actions.

[jamzrockz]

85. Putin's reaction is more restrained than what I have in mind

Because I will first setup anti air units in Syria with the Syrian govt and shoot down any NATO planes violating Syria airspace and then if any installation is attacked in Syria. I will end the whole thing. If EU and NATO would wanna put the fate of the world at stake in order to protect their ISIS army, then I will let the nukes fly all over

Fuck this nonsense.

[joshcryer]

87. Oh man, that's even funnier.

Anti-air units require ground forces. Putin isn't a fool. He's not taking the Russian army into Syria to any large degree (yes support units here and there, but he's still letting Assad's army do all the dirty work, while he wages the air campaign).

Syria is a defacto no-fly zone at this point, anyway.

Putin is handling it as best he can, first, calm and centered, and second, being macho and saying that Turkey allied with terrorists. No doubt the dead pilots are getting a lot of play on Russian TV and he'll ham it up even more, but it's not going to go anywhere near what you want.

[jamzrockz]

109. But why?

but someone is violating a sovereign country's airspace. All you need to do now is give them a warning that if they violate it even for a split second, you start shoot them down. And if they retaliate then you show them why a country spend much money maintaining a nuclear arsenal.

If that is not enough to cause them to back down, then they are the crazy morons not you. But in the mean time, lets hope Putin have something good planned for the terror supporting Turkey. In my head it goes something like this.

[Codeine]

111. Put it back in your pants, little man.

The childrens' table is over in the corner.

[jamzrockz]

134. Stick and stones may break my bones

But words will never hurt me. The fact that you have absolutely nothing to say but insults tells me you cannot counter the points I am making. That or prove me wrong and shut me up (hope its not an alert).

[alcibiades_mystery]

117. ...

[PersonNumber503602]

131. I tend to agree with you.

[TwilightGardener]

99. Turkey warned Russia repeatedly to stay out of its airspace.

I guess they don't fuck around.

[LittleBlue]

102. NATO has taken the side of the Islamists since day 1

No surprise here. Turkey and Saudi Arabia openly support terrorists.

[forsaken mortal]

107. RIP Russian pilots

You were senselessly killed by hotheads. I'm sure Russia will no longer be flying these bombing missions unescorted. They will probably have fighter patrols in the area during ops now to send missiles up the tailpipes of any Turkish planes that attempt the same.

[Xolodno]

116. Many people here on DU say Putin is nuts...

...Lets hope they are wrong.

That or the rest of the NATO members tell Turkey they own this.

[hedgehog]

122. Because nothing says "Oh, shit!" like the Turks shooting down a Russian war plane.

[hardluck]

150. You beat me to it!

Was going to post that clip. Woke up and immediately thought of that scene.

[LiberalArkie]

130. This just in from WikiLeaks. Turkey issued 10 warnings in 5 minutes?

Planes were in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds?

[jamzrockz]

133. More like, this is

From the Turkish govt. They are only trying to get their story out and I don't blame them.

[PersonNumber503602]

135. Am I reading that correctly, they were only in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds?

Is that normal reaction time for something like this?

[LiberalArkie]

136. No. I think Turkey did not like them being that close to the border. Then the

Turkish backed? Syrians shot and killed the pilots after they ejected.

[daleo]

157. No, that's known as itching for a fight

Any school kid has seen this sort of mentality by grade 2.

[roamer65]

177. If one does the math, the "incursion" time would have been much shorter.

17 seconds to cover less than 2 miles equals about 250 mph, stall speed on a Su-24. I don't think they went into Turkish airspace. They got close and Turkey shot them down on the Syrian side of the border.

[ozone_man]

184. Sure sounds like it.

Probably more like 5 seconds, if Turkey's flight path is correct. More likely shot down on Syrian air space.

[Igel]

153. Not the first time.

And the warnings don't have to come only upon entrance into Turkish airspace. When you have a history of violations and see another plane on course to enter your airspace, you warn them.

"If you continue on your present course you will enter Turkish airspace. Please alter your heading to ...." If this is true, it means either the Russians weren't listening or didn't care about violating Turkish airspace. (Notice that these two amount to the same thing. If the Russians weren't listening, perhaps the pilots were instructed to have their radios off. Perhaps they were ordered to stay on course. Who knows? Until NATO releases any radio intercepts that the Russian air command in Syria had with the Sukhoi it's an open question.)

Notice that flying fast aircraft close to an irregular border in order to bomb close to that border is inherently risky. Missiles can cross borders fairly easily and the borders aren't marked with big glowing lines on the ground (avionics and heads-up displays can superimpose them, but I don't know the Sukhoi's capabilities and don't much care to). You're moving fast, and at 400 mph cover a couple of miles in less than 30 seconds. Little spits of land jutting out make for problems. You can be careful and possibly not have easy access to your target, or you can nail your target and "accidentially" cross the border.

[forsaken mortal]

140. Amazing

That the plane and pilots all land within Syrian territory. Turkey is supporting ISIS, they thank Turkey for the support.

[840high]

154. ...+1

[polly7]

159. Isn't it though. +1000. nt.

[grahamhgreen]

162. Reports they also shot the pilots while parachuting, a war crime. We need to kick them out of NATO.

[truthisfreedom]

174. Obama should NEVER have pardoned

the Turkey last Thanksgiving.

THANKS OBAMA!

[freshwest]

206. I remember that. Symbolism is Everything.

Obama Pardons Turkey In Stunning Abuse of Executive Power (XP)

//

^^^ This is how it begins ^^^

This week, President Obama will pardon a turkey in advance of the Thanksgiving holiday. The Office of Legal Counsel has released a 4,000-page memorandum setting forth the constitutional and statutory justifications for this controversial executive action, rooted largely in the authority granted to him under Article II, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, as well as the Eighth Amendment and also the Perdue Family Farms Charter. Moreover, as the OLC memo notes, presidents have been pardoning turkeys for decades. As the OLC opinion further indicates, the president’s constitutional authority to pardon turkeys may well date back all the way to the Lincoln administration, pursuant to President Lincoln’s son Tad pleading with his father to let the turkey destined for the family’s Christmas dinner live. Lincoln cheerily allowed the turkey to roam the White House, and the family feasted on a Tofurky in its stead.

Obama’s Republican critics were quick to denounce presidential claims that the turkey pardon authority rests squarely within the enumerated powers of the executive branch. Sen. Ted Cruz published an op-ed in Politico titled “Obama Is Not a Monarch” in which he excoriated Obama’s plan to pardon the turkey as “lawless.” In it, Cruz posited that despite widespread popular resistance to turkey amnesty, “President Obama appears to be going forward. It is lawless. It is unconstitutional. He is defiant and angry at the American people. If he acts by executive diktat, President Obama will not be acting as a president, he will be acting as a monarch...”

House Speaker John Boehner tweeted, “The president has said before that ‘he's not a king’ & he’s ‘not an emperor,’ but he sure is acting like one.” Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum called the turkey pardon “just another in a long line of power grabs by this administration.”

And Michele Bachmann, in a Nov. 20 email fundraising appeal for her PAC, charged President Obama with going far beyond giving lawless turkeys amnesty, affording them the actual rights and privileges of full citizenship: “What could more fundamentally transform our nation than making our precious American citizenship—and the rule of law—merely commodities to be dispensed with as our Imperial President sees fit, flooding our land with illegal turkeys which will forever alter our way of life?” Bachmann also added that the newly pardoned turkeys would soon be able to vote: “The Democrats are licking their wounds after their terrible defeats this month, and are viewing these millions of illegal turkeys as the delicious shock troops for their leftist agenda...”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/low_concept/2014/11/white_house_thanksgiving_will_the_president_s_turkey_pardon_start_a_wave.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110227065

[roamer65]

178. This is what Daddy Erdogan does when Russia messes up his son's illicit oil profiteering.

I really don't think a secularist military coup would be bad thing for Turkey right now.

[happyslug]

192. You sure Edrogan knows anything about this before it happened?

I seriously doubt Erdogan is on a minute to minute control of Turkish Air Defences. Given that the Air Force High Command (and most of the rest of the Officer Corp of the Turkish Arm Forces) tend to be supportive of his OPPOSITION, I suspect they not only did not TELL Erdogan, it was their decision NOT to tell him. The Turkish Arm Forces want to intervene in Syria but for different reasons then Erdogan. The Turkish Arm Forces want to improve the position of its "Allies" (I am using that term to means someone friendly to the Turkish Arm Forces NOT someone they have an actual treaty of alliance with).

Erdogan wants to improve his position within Turkey and support his allies in the Middle East.

The problem is both sides allies want Assad gone, but replaced by two different groups. The Turkish Arm Forces want someone in charge of Syria that enhances they allies, the present Government of Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia the US and ISIS. Erdogan wants to enhance his allies, the Moslem Brotherhood. ISIS is a Salafist/Wahhabist branch out of Saudi Arabia. They have always been tied in with the House of Saud and thus favor the ruling elite of the Middle East over the rest of the population of the Middle East.

The Moslem Brotherhood tends to be more supportive of the working class and peasants of the Middle East. That is the power base of the Moslem Brotherhood and Erdogan.

In many ways the Turkish Arm Forces want Assad out and replaced by something like ISIS, someone who will keep the working class and peasants down. Erdogan and the Moslem Brotherhood wants to give more of the economy to the working class and peasants.

Notice both oppose Iran in addition to Assad, but the Moslem Brotherhood has indicated it will deal with them and deal with Christians and everyone else in the Middle East. while the Salafist/Wahhabist reject even talking about such deals. The Salafist/Wahhabist wants to impose they view of Islam on everyone, the Moslem Brotherhood wants to make Islam #1, but opposes suppressing non islamic groups (The Moslem Brotherhood has indicated it would like to impose traditional Islamic restrictions on such groups, but has also indicated that such restriction will be impossible to reinstate in today's society).

A good comparison can be made with today's right wing in the US. Traditional Republicans have always indicated they are willing to work with Democrats and compromise, while the radical right wing has said it is our way to the highway. ISIS and the Salafist/Wahhabist have an attitude like the GOP right wing, while the Moslem Brotherhood are more like traditional Republicans. We may HATE what the Traditional GOP wants they are willing to deal with us. The Radical Right wing of the GOP do NOT even want to think about dealing with Democrats. The same with the Salafist/Wahhabist, they want it to be they way or the highway, the Moslem Brotherhood has long stated it is willing to work with other groups.

This split in Sunni Islam is the biggest policy problem in the Middle East today. It is made worse by the fact the House of Saud has supported Salafist/Wahhabist for over the last 300 years (Through three kingdoms of Saudi Arabia):

First Saudi State, 1744-1818

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Diriyah

The Second Saudi State, 1824-1891:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Nejd

The present, or Third Saudi State, 1931 till present:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud#Saudi_Arabia

More on the Moslem Brotherhood:

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

[bemildred]

193. Sputnik appears to share your doubts:

"Thus," Mirzayan emphasizes, "it's obvious that the main loser in this situation is not Vladimir Putin, but Recep Erdogan. For this reason, it is possible to ponder that the downing of the plane went ahead without the president's involvement."

http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151125/1030736863/shoot-down-su-24-political-consequences.html

[Jesus Malverde]

203. Interesting thread

Thanks everyone!