An ISIS defector explained a key reason people continue joining the group

[zalinda]

Source: Business Insider

Despite ISIS's claims of ruling over a Islamic "caliphate" in line with Sharia law, a large number of the group's fighters joined for reasons having little to do with religion, according to a defector from the group that The Daily Beast's Michael Weiss interviewed in Istanbul, Turkey.

Instead, people are joining the organization because they are desperate for money and are struggling to find a way to survive in Syria, where four years of civil war have decimated the economy.

The ISIS defector, who goes by the pseudonym Abu Khaled, spoke with Weiss about the group's internal dynamics, and what it was like to live under ISIS's rule.

According to Abu Khaled, a large number of people are joining ISIS because they need money. After joining the militants, people are paid in US dollars instead of Syrian liras. Abu Khaled said that ISIS also runs its own currency exchanges.



Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-defector-explains-why-people-continue-joining-group-2015-11

---

Once again, Bernie has been proven correct. It's the billionaires who are directly or indirectly causing the problem. Well, and governments haven't helped the situation.

Z

[forest444]

1. In other words, those degenerates we call our "allies"

The Saudis.

When those poor bastards join for the money, that's Saudi money they're getting.

[Buzz Clik]

3. those are "other words" but not particularly related to the OP.

Can you please connect the dots for us?

[forest444]

8. Sure.

Remember that a key point in the article was that:

"People are joining the organization because they are desperate for money and are struggling to find a way to survive in Syria, where four years of civil war have decimated the economy."

Now, we're talking about thousands of people who, at a minimum, require provisions and other resources of at least a few thousand dollars per man annually. That's many millions of dollars - and it's no secret that millions in Saudi aid is being purposely diverted to ISIS (or whatever they call themselves these days) for the short-sighted and incredibly selfish goal the Saudis have of deposing Assad.

And what's worse, they're playing us like chumps - like they always do.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Ok. Got it.

[Buzz Clik]

92. Alrighty then.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

71. Not sure about that.

ISIS has their own oil wells and sell it in the international market. That oil gets them the $$ to pay their fellow terrorists.

[forest444]

72. Maybe (assuming oil is covering their billions in operational expenses, which it's not)

But how did they get in the first place? By taking over large swaths of Syrian territory.

And how did they do that?

Remember, Syria is a heavily militarized country (this isn't Rwanda we're talking about here). To have gotten as far as they have, has to go down as one of the most notable military campaigns in history - and that, mon ami, requires access to gigantic amounts of the best equipment, as well as billions. Saudi billions.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

74. They get billions from the oil they stole.

[forest444]

75. At $45 a barrel? (actually less, since it's black market oil) I don't think so.

Not to mention that it doesn't explain how they took over all that (heavily militarized) territory to begin with.

Someone should have to show me some pretty convincing proof of that - especially knowing what we know about the Saudis and their proclivity for financing extremist groups.

Nothing personal; but taking you at your word solely would be tantamount to giving them a huge benefit of the doubt - of the kind we at DU shouldn't do as people who consider ourselves keen observers of the world and all its madness.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

78. Of course you SHOULD NOT take my word or anyones without some evidence.

This is just my opinion from what I've gathered. Take care, Forest.

[forest444]

81. I hear you, Elmer.

And to be fair, it's not just the Saudis:

[JackRiddler]

82. And how do they do that?

It is sold, no? To whom? How is this possible? Why hasn't this been cut off?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

83. Did you forget the sarcasm thingy?

If you are serious, then:

1) How do I know, but they are selling it.
2) How is it impossible?
3) Good question. They seem to be trying harder. We'll have to see.

[upaloopa]

2. No he said it was climate change

Bernie said climate change was the biggest cause of terrorism.

[Buzz Clik]

4. Careful.

That Hillary logo won't protect you when you say shit like that.

[upaloopa]

25. Careful?????????????????????????????? shit like that ???????????? did you even listen to the debate

Don't even try to threaten me.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2015/11/17/fact-check-bernie-sanders-climate-link-terrorism/75950720/

“Absolutely,” Sanders said. “In fact, climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism. And if we do not get our act together and listen to what the scientists say you’re gonna see countries all over the world — this is what the CIA says, they’re gonna be struggling over limited amounts of water, limited amounts of land to grow their crops. And you’re gonna see all kinds of international conflict.”

On CBS’ Face the Nation the following day, Dickerson asked Sanders to expand on his statement that “climate change in fact is related to terrorism.”




Sanders, Nov. 15: Well, that’s not only my observation, John. That is what the CIA and the Department of Defense tells us. And the reason is pretty obvious. If we are going to see an increase in drought and flooding and extreme weather disturbances as a result of climate change, what that means is that peoples all over the world are going to be fighting over limited natural resources.

If there is not enough water, if there is not enough land to grow your crops, then you’re going to see migrations of people fighting over land that will sustain them. And that will lead to international conflicts.

I think, when we talk about all of the possible ravages of climate change, which, to my mind, is just a huge planetary crisis, increased international conflict is one of the issues that we have got to appreciate will happen.

Dickerson: But how does drought connect with attacks by ISIS in the middle of Paris?

Sanders: Well, what happens, say, in Syria, for example — and there’s some thought about this — is that, when you have drought, when people can’t grow their crops, they’re going to migrate into cities. And when people migrate into cities, and they don’t have jobs, there’s going to be a lot more instability, a lot more unemployment. And people will be subject to the types of propaganda that al Qaeda and ISIS are using right now. So, where you have discontent, where you have instability, that’s where problems arise. And, certainly, without a doubt, climate change will lead to that.

[Buzz Clik]

30. And I thought only Sanders supporters were overly dramatic, paranoid, and humorless.

geez.

[upaloopa]

31. Now that is real deflection

[Buzz Clik]

34. This epitomizes paranoia: "Don't even try to threaten me."

Geebus effin cristo.

Take a step back accompanied by a deep breath, and try to keep in mind where the threat actual sits. *

=============
*zalinda actually insulted the hell out of you. And I get this?

[upaloopa]

76. You say, does it even matter?

Who even gives a shit about stuff like that?

[zalinda]

22. Climate change means you can't grow crops

which means you can't eat. Can't feed your family, you will do anything so they don't go hungry.

Very simple, even a Hillary supporter should be able to follow that.

Z

[upaloopa]

28. That is not what I replied to, pay attention

The poster said it was billionaires and that Bernie was right about that
Bernie said it was climate change as I pointed out

[LiberalLovinLug]

54. Technically it IS billionaires, industry magnets, that take advantage of lax environmental laws

to pollute and destroy third world countries environments.

But you are more interested in scoring a cheap hit on a somewhat vague OP description.

[jeff47]

88. Climate change creates the desperate labor supply.

The billionaires fund paying that labor.

[Ghost Dog]

73. He said it is a contributing factor, not

the biggest cause, yet. (The "yet" is me speaking: my opinion - I have degree in Environmental Sciences from the 1970s- It will over time become an increasingly significant factor leading to more terrorism, police states, martial law and war, as well as drought, famine and disease).

[peace13]

5. Help me out here.

Where do the US dollars come from to pay theses people? I read the article about where the funding comes from but it didn't explain this issue.

[jwirr]

13. Good question and what does it mean for them to run their

own currency exchange?

[carla]

20. Likely getting dollars

from the sale of oil. It only sells in dollars. I also wondered how much US tax money that actually is. Remember the billions of dollars on pallets that "went to war" in Iraq and disappeared?

[90-percent]

37. The pallets

Ah, yes, the memories of the early parts of the invasion. Billions of dollars on shrink wrapped pallets. What could possibly go wrong? And so many memories of meanness, creepiness, ham handedness, hypocrisy and especially stupidity.

I knew the reasons for war were bogus, consider the absurdity of the constantly changing reasons for the invasion, started to stop the mushroom clouds and changed into bringing democracy to Iraq.

I did not know it would end up as an endless expensive craven sacrifice to the MIC and big oil and oligarchs everywhere.

What was especially painful about the corruption was the suffering it caused - including all the innocents betrayed for American bounty and off to Guantanamo. And torture. A terrorist attack by Dick Cheney and company on the fundamental principles we used to be proud of given to us by really really smart generous Forefthers that wanted fairness and equality for all. kind of, hiccups on the way with slavery and bogus wars and gilded ages and all that.

welcome to du

-90% Jimmy

[tclambert]

63. Oh, now, there you go, forgetting the "third world accounting" the Bushites blamed it on.

Apparently, no one could find a pen and paper to write receipts.

[2naSalit]

60. Exactly!

And what has become of the mercenaries that "helped" lose that $$?

[peace13]

94. Bingo on the pallets of dollars. Nt

[FairWinds]

6. And don't forget . .

our "ally" Turkey.
Nearly all ISIS supplies go through Turkey
with a wink and a nod.

Veterans For Peace

[eissa]

7. And sex. Let's not forget that.

In a region where pre-marital sex can be punishable by death, and where due to economic reasons many have had to put off marriage, here's an easy way to not only get paid, but fuck some sex slaves.

I'm not giving these degenerates a pass by believing that they only joined up for a fucking job. They know exactly what these savages are doing to their countrymen -- the murders, rapes and upheaval they are causing. There is no excuse.

[christx30]

9. "They behead people, they take slaves.

on the other hand, they have a good dental plan, and a 401(k), so what they hey."

[jwirr]

15. As any victim of sexual abuse can tell you sex can be a tool

of control and fear. So it is not just a reason to join a group.

[eissa]

35. Certainly not the only reason, definitely a perk

I'm just not buying that these guys joined up because there was a job opening. They believe the ideology, they want the power it gives them, and if fucking an Assyrian or Yazidi child is part of the package, all the better.

[jwirr]

38. Probably correct because another reason for ISIS is not so

much their belief in extreme Islam but the hatred between the groups or denominations that are found in the religion. If we look at the way the Reformation effected Europe for decades of religious wars it is easy to see what role religion plays in this.

I don't think that there is any one reason for the wars in the ME. In fact there is seldom an action that does not have more than one reason.

Not to mention that women and children are often the tools used to show power in wars. That is something that I have always found most sickening about war and why for the most part I am a pacifist.

[WhoWoodaKnew]

62. i've said that for years

[jeff47]

84. You'll find ideology is not nearly as strong a motivator when you face

"Dad, I'm hungry" and have no food, and no hope of getting food.

That won't make you into a war criminal, but ISIS has plenty of not-war-crime work that needs to be done.

[jwirr]

10. This rings more true than that they are following some fanatic

form of religion. This is what was behind many of the wars throughout history. This must be considered part of any attempt to stop these wars.

And as to your comment regarding governments - think about the rulers of the ME countries. They are equivalent to our billionaires. Hoarding all the wealth to themselves.

And then you add in the damage our war has done to their area plus a drought that brings a food shortage we see the world in our future unless we start getting rid of the inequality in wealth that causes this.

The fanatical religion is one of their tools to build their power through fear. They show us beheadings on the tv so that we become afraid just as our Rs use it for the same reason.

[RobinA]

16. Yes...

the beheadings, frequent random spectacular atrocities, scary desert garb, automatic weaponry... Branding to create their particular form of that age old human endeavor - the power grab.

[jwirr]

18. And we need to understand which is the tool and which is

the cause.

[carla]

21. A gang of thugs.

With aspirations. But thugs nonetheless. Give no quarter.

[jwirr]

29. In other words fight endless wars when understanding just

might help stop it? WWII was a result of treaties from WWI that made things worse instead of better. Maybe just maybe we should remember that lesson.

[RobinA]

95. They Are Thugs

But that simple understanding does not lead to a way to counteract them effectively. There is no known antidote for Thug.

[RobinA]

11. So Does This Apply

as well to the people the recruit from Europe et al.? This partially answers the question I've been asking for a couple days now - Who are these people? It also makes them seem both more sophisticated and more vulnerable than they are normally portrayed.

[jwirr]

17. When I have read about the people who go over there from

both the US and Europe they are usually young kids. Do you remember how many kids just out of high school ran to enlist during the Cuban missile crisis? To some youth war is romantic. An adventure.

[RobinA]

19. Yep

that ever present problem - young men with too few meaningful things to do. For whatever reason.

[Heeeeers Johnny]

12. It's not their dental plan and extended maternity leave for both parents?

[FLPanhandle]

23. So they are murdering, raping, kidnapping, collecting sex slaves, commiting atrocrities for money?

Hell, even the Nazi's had a better excuse. They at least believed their ideology or used the "I was only obeying orders" excuse.

"So, Dr. Megele, why'd you commit those atrocities?"
"Oh, it was for the money"

If ISIS members are doing this just for money, then they are lower than I even dreamed they could be.

[jberryhill]

32. That's true of any fighting force, including Nazis

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 03:23 PM - Edit history (1)

What army doesn't pay?

You think people sign up for even the US Army and say, "Oh, hey, cool, I can get college tuition too!" For some, that's the REASON they signed up.

And, no, I'm not making some cockeyed equivalency comparison. I'm simply pointing out that if you join any fighting force, you are going to get fed, clothed, housed, and paid. In an environment where people do not have other options for those things, then why is that a "bad reason" to join?

"Hell, even the Nazi's had a better excuse."

Surely you are familiar with economic conditions in Germany and Austria in the late 1930's. "Sound of Music" notwithstanding, the majority of Austrians welcomed the opportunities that consolidation with Germany provided. They were in pretty dire straights.

[FLPanhandle]

40. This isn't about getting paid in a regular army

And many people join out of patriatism. Lots of folks signed up after 9/11, Pearl Harbor, etc. It wasn't for the pay. It wasn't because of some new college program.

ISIS isn't a army protecting thier country from outside It's a gang that is killing, raping, and making sex slaves of it's own people.

[jberryhill]

45. Yes, a lot of people join out of patriotism

I think if we quit paying them, a lot of people wouldn't show up for work. If the college program and other benefits were not inducements to join, we wouldn't have them.

My father was in ROTC long before Pearl Harbor, so it didn't have a whole lot to do with being upset at the Japanese, and it did have a whole lot to do with having no other way to attend college. He re-upped several times, served in two wars, was awarded a Bronze Star, and told me many times as a child, "Whatever you do, don't join the army."

And, yes, you are absolutely correct that ISIS is not an army protecting their country etc.. People wouldn't join criminal gangs either if there wasn't something in it for them. So, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. The fact of the matter is that ISIS provides an opportunity to get paid and, just like a lot of other things that are done on an organized full-time commitment basis, if it didn't pay, then a lot fewer people would do it. People don't join the Mafia out of any sense of higher purpose either. It does, however, pay.

[FLPanhandle]

48. People don't join the Mafia out of any sense of higher purpose either. It does, however, pay.

Which is why I hold them in even lower contempt. They aren't doing this for some noble purpose or defending innocents. It's all about committing atrocitites for pay.

I

[jberryhill]

52. So you have more respect for people who commit atrocities for free?

I guess I just don't get the point you are making.

[RobinA]

96. Plus

you better believe that if ISIS could field an effective force WITHOUT paying, they surely would not be paying.

[jberryhill]

47. Take a look at this Civil War recruiting poster

The poster is specifically aimed at recruiting African Americans.

Note the absence of anything like "Help fight to free slaves".

Note the prominence of what you get paid.

Here's another one:



I can't read the fine print, but I can pretty much tell what I'd get for signing up.

[FLPanhandle]

53. Oh and fighting to release their brothers/sisters from slavery

Or protecting the union wasn't a consideration.

I suppose it the South had paid more, the Union army would have deserted in mass?

It's more than money and you know it.

[jberryhill]

55. Those are not the reasons they chose to put in big print on the poster

Go argue with whomever designed it.

[RobinA]

97. If Armies

were made up only of people willing to die for a greater cause they would be small indeed. In fact, the world would be a better place.

[dixiegrrrrl]

79. the fine print in the bottom says

"Manly exercises are encouraged"
and promises good hunting, fishing, and beautiful scenery.

So much for the meaning of "volunteers" in the modern sense.

[jberryhill]

80. They used to advertise the Navy like it was a cruise line

I don't know if the Navy ever paid the Village People for highlighted those manly exercises, though.

[jberryhill]

49. These things are pretty cool actually

Note the stirring call to patriotic duty on this one:

[FLPanhandle]

66. BTW as a history buff, those are pretty cool

Where did you find them?

[jberryhill]

67. I Googled civil war recruting posters

A few months ago, I visited one of our local landmarks (Fort Delaware), which I had been to a zillion times as a kid. This time around, I was quite taken by a recruiting poster on display in the museum, and the various pay rates on it.

It sort of left me with a "they sure did emphasize the money" feeling.

Think about it, though. $438 up front. In the 1860's. $4 a month for single men, and $6 a month for married men.

Well, that's a plan right there, eh? "Oh, Betsy..."

Loads here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=civil+war+recruiting+posters&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIocSJ3qGdyQIVgXs-Ch0D8gqZ&biw=1568&bih=869

[jberryhill]

69. Consider

Here is the average weekly wage for 60 hours a week:

Occupation 1860, 1870, 1880, 1890

blacksmith, 10.68, 18.24, 15.54, 16.26
carpenter, 10.92, 24.60, 16.56, 19.32
machinist, 9.48, 15.60, 13.62, 14.58
laborers, 5.88, 9.36, 8.10, 9.06


http://outrunchange.com/2012/06/14/typical-wages-in-1860-through-1890/

Can you imagine your best prospects for unskilled work being around $1 a day, and the state militia is offering to hand you a couple hundred in cold-hard cash - more cash than you've ever seen in one place - just for signing up?

So, out of further curiosity, I wondered what it looks like now:

http://www.military.com/recruiting/bonus-center/news/army-offers-$20k-quick-ship-bonus

Maj. Gen. Thomas P. Bostick, commander of U.S. Army Recruiting Command, credited the $20,000 quick-ship bonus with helping to motivate would-be soldiers who were “on the fence” into joining the ranks.

http://www.military.com/recruiting/bonus-center/



I think Gen. Bostick put it quite well. There are some substantial "motivations" to heed the call of patriotism.

[eppur_se_muova]

77. OTOH, if you really wanted to avoid serving ...

Civil War Draft Records: Exemptions and Enrollments
By Michael T. Meier

Grover Cleveland, urbane, sometimes wise, and a future President of the United States, never served in the military during the Civil War. He was healthy, of the appropriate age, and educated. His Buffalo, New York, law practice provided him a comfortable living.

George Templeton Strong, urbane, sometimes wise, and always opinionated, never served in the Union army. He, too, was healthy, of the appropriate age, and educated. His New York City law practice provided him a comfortable income.

John D. Rockefeller, a Cleveland, Ohio, merchant, was also healthy and eligible to serve in the armed forces of the United States. He did not experience the Civil War in uniform.

These men, and many others, avoided military service by simply taking advantage of that section of the Enrollment Act of 1863 allowing draftees to pay $300 to a substitute who served for them. 1 This amount, presumably a healthy sum in 1863, did not long remain the norm, for George Templeton Strong, pluckier than many of his contemporaries, paid a "big 'Dutch' boy of about twenty" $1,100 to be his "alter ego" in 1864. 2

http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/1994/winter/civil-war-draft-records.html

[CJCRANE]

39. For every headline grabber like Jihadi John there are probably thousands of grunts

who just do what they're told and provide the footsoldiers.

[FLPanhandle]

43. Like beheading, rounding up sex slaves, gang raping

I guess I should feel sorry for them. Poor lads, just trying to make ends meet.

[CJCRANE]

46. A lot of them are also criminals who were released and busted out of various ME prisons

and they also take strong drugs to keep them going on their sprees, so you're right, they're not the nicest of guys.

[jeff47]

85. And directing traffic, and hauling supplies, and running the exchanges in the OP....

ISIS is actually running a country. There are jobs to be done that do not involve committing war crimes.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to choose to starve to death over directing traffic.

[jberryhill]

64. Incidentally...

Among the participants in Shay's Rebellion were revolutionary war soldiers who were quite happy to take up arms against the United States because they hadn't received their pensions.

[Sunlei]

24. paid in USA dollars?

[jberryhill]

33. Yes, people all over the world like to have them

[ck4829]

26. So what would happen if we were to dump lots of crates of cash on Daesh?

Just literally flood them with money, but mark that money of course.

It sounds ridiculous, but they are paying cash and they have their own currency exchanges, so they do measure this, so this exchange and their assets do gain and lose value according to their own analysis.

[jeff47]

86. If we dumped lots of cash or food/supplies

it would greatly harm Daesh and significantly stabilize the area.

A significant amount of the aid would also find its way to Daesh, so such "aid bombs" are not going to happen.

[Truprogressive85]

27. Time to wake up

Deash has a black market for oil, also there are people in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states who are funding them

its time to stop p*** footing and call the fundies out ! Those who support Wahhabism/salafism support Daesh and they are not our allies

[7962]

36. Horseshit. Being poor doesnt make you commit mass slaughter on a continuing basis.

It might be a little more believable if they were just a criminal organization stealing oil.
But they're not. They're actively killing everywhere they go

[Beacool]

41. So, the majority of them are mercenaries?

How does someone go from needing to scratch a living to brutal killer, gang raping women, decapitating men and generally killing anyone in their path?

[FLPanhandle]

42. Apparently we are supposed to feel sympathy for ISIS I guess

They are just poor boys looking for a paycheck.

[Beacool]

50. Well, I hope that they rot in hell.

There's NO justification for bringing down planes or bombing civilians. To me they are a bunch of cowards. It doesn't take much courage to be fully armed and start shooting at unarmed people. If they are so manly, let them meet soldiers who are as well armed as them and look them in the eye. Killing women and children is not honorable and a sin in Allah's eyes.

[RobinA]

98. It's Not About Sympathy

It's about trying to understand the problem so it can be solved. It's fine to sit around and make moral denunciations of some really nasty guys, but that doesn't lead to a solution.

[jeff47]

89. ISIS is running a country. There's plenty of non-war-crime work to be done. (nt)

[valerief]

44. Same reason why young people join the U.S. military. nt

[JEB]

51. Economic draft.

Works like a champ here until limping home or deep six-ed.

[Beacool]

56. I hope that you are not equating the two.

That's insulting to our young people who mostly joined to get an education.

[valerief]

57. Because they couldn't afford an education otherwise. You know, like in

the first world countries.

[Beacool]

58. I agree about the need to make college more affordable.

But that's where the comparison ends. These people act like monsters.

[valerief]

65. Unlike Abu Ghraib? nt

[Hydra]

90. Oh, I bet that stung

People and their short memories...

[AlbertCat]

59. joined for reasons having little to do with religion,

But the organization itself has a lot to do with religion.

[tclambert]

61. I heard they had free donuts.

But they didn't have any Boston Cream-filled donuts. So don't get too excited.

[Vincardog]

68. They join for the same reason most of our people join our military, there is no alternative job

Offered by the economy devastated by the "Job Creator" parasites.
If your economy has been destroyed and you can't make a living you JOIN A GANG
The police or the military are just different brands than the Crips Bloods Shia or Sunni

[snagglepuss]

70. It doesn't explain why Muslims from the West are going there or why 1000s of Muslims in the West

embrace this hateful ideology and plotting terrorists attacks in Western countries.

[jeff47]

87. Since that's a pretty small percentage of ISIS's forces

We'd be thrilled if we were down to the people coming from the West.

[snagglepuss]

100. Agreed. My point is in response to the assertion that poverty forces many in the Levant

to join ISIS which I think is very likely in a number of cases. But poverty doesn't explain why Western men and women join.

[wordpix]

93. TV segment showed little boys being trained in Afghanistan by ISIS

They go to "school" to learn bomb making, how to use a gun and the like. I was thinking, "Why would people give up their little boys to be suicide bombers and fighters?" It's the same as parents giving up their girls into sex slavery. They are so poor they need the money, and they don't see another way. Either the child leaves the home for these "jobs" or he/she/the family starves. These people are so desperate. We need to have some understanding of their motivations as this article shows.

We really need to tax the rich more to help out people who are so poor they sell their children.

[zalinda]

99. I think a lot of people

can't wrap their head around this type of poverty. They still seem to believe that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough. Of course, these people couldn't handle one day in the life of these people, let alone years of grinding poverty. It's almost like telling someone that they should have been born to richer parents, these people should have born in safer countries.

Z