Family of man shot by customer with concealed carry license: 'Something doesn't seem right'
Source: Chicago Tribune
The stepson of a 55-year-old suspected robber shot dead Saturday night at a Southwest Side store by a customer with a concealed carry license expressed anger, frustration and doubt about the incident Sunday.
Killed was Reginald Gildersleeve, 55, of the 5000 block of South California Avenue, according to the Cook County medical examiner's office. Gildersleeve was pronounced dead at 7:10 p.m. on the scene in the 2700 block of West 51st Street, according to the medical examiner's office.
Police had said earlier he'd been shot in the chest. An autopsy slated for Sunday will determine the cause and manner of Gildersleeve's death.
Gildersleeve's stepson told reporters Sunday that he doubted the police account that Gildersleeve was shot while attempting to rob the store.
Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-concealed-carry-20151101-story.html
They have concealed carry in Chicago?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)good guy with a gun?
Website firewall.
Township75
(3,535 posts)police sources gave conflicting answers, such as he had a fake, to yes he did.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)whopis01
(3,522 posts)The article said he had a "paint gun" - which may have meant a paintball gun. In either case, those are not firearms.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)Township75
(3,535 posts)?
WhiteTara
(29,721 posts)Concealed carry isn't a license to be a vigilante.
DonP
(6,185 posts)The 55 year old had a lengthy criminal record, including being out on bail for another crime October 23rd.
He was forcing people into the back room when he was shot by the customer.
Vigilante? Really? Sounds more like self defense.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)The ARMED robber was in the process of herding the 2 clerks into the back room at gun point, that's never a good sign, the CC customer perceived a deadly threat to himself and the clerks and took appropriate action.
He most certainly wasn't a vigilante, he was a lawful CC'er who may have very well stopped a double or triple murder.
840high
(17,196 posts)A winner in the fact that 3 lives were probably saved by his action.
840high
(17,196 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Yeah, that POS was a real winner, he won the stupid prize.
christx30
(6,241 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 2, 2015, 02:01 AM - Edit history (1)
Someone that doesn't call the police, but takes the law into their own hands?
There wasn't a cop around. There was no way of calling them. This was a bad guy that out on parole was reportedly taking employees into the back of the store. Is there any situation where that turns out well for the employees. So the customer did the right thing, unless you think the lives of the employees are a small price to pay for Mr. Gildersleeve's life.
Here's his rap sheet, by the way. He sure seemed to love stealing for people. Maybe this was the job that he would graduate to murder.
http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Illinois/Cook-County-IL/Reginald-Gildersleeve.239925.html
I see offenses range from Forgery to possession of a controlled substance, to burglary to theft. He decided to enter into a dangerous occupation, and it turned out bad for him.
Glad no innocent people were killed.
Demonaut
(8,924 posts)robbing at gunpoint is a very stupid thing to do...even if it was a fake one
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)he would not have used his, but of course the robbery wouldn't have succeeded. That's the problem.
It's armed or aggravated robbery if you are holding a screwdriver in your pocket so it looks like a pistol and you tell people it is a gun. Any deadly weapon threat makes it armed or aggravated robbery.
Sadly, this happens more than you would expect:
http://www.guns.com/2014/09/15/robbers-armed-with-fake-gun-face-store-clerk-with-real-pistol-video/
http://www.csclarklaw.com/violent-crimes-information/armed-robbery-imitation-firearms.html
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/armed+robbery
This is in common law an inherently violent crime. The use or threat of the weapon is employed to make the victim(s) do what they normally would not do through fear, thus making it legal to use deadly force. If you walked into a store with a baggie of flour and told the clerk that it was anthrax and that if they didn't hand over all the money you would throw it on them, it's armed or aggravated robbery.
The fact that the gun was fake doesn't change the legal position AT ALL.
This wasn't murder. It was a justifiable homicide unless some facts appear that make it clear that the threat was not something a reasonable person would have feared. For example, if a five year-old walked into the store and waved a toy magic wand and ordered the clerk to give him candy or the kid would make him disappear, a reasonable person would not be in fear of a deadly weapon.
People who commit armed robbery are not just placing their victims in jeopardy - they are also running personal risks. It is the fear element that creates the justification for a forceful response.
Defense of others has always been considered justifiable where it would be justifiable if you were defending yourself.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Wouldn't be dead if he hadn't attempted to commit felony robbery. The guy who shot him did nothing wrong and undoubtedly will not be charged with a crime. How about we stop sticking up for criminals?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)but what should the customer be going to prison for?
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)If you commit armed robbery and put people in fear for their lives, you may get killed. It comes with the territory.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)According to the accounts, he was directing the attendants to the back. If it was good enough to fool the clerks, from the customer's perspective he was looking at an armed man who might possibly kill someone.
Sometimes life sucks. I feel sorry for the customer who shot, but he deserves no censure from the law.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Many self-defense courses teach that this is a very, very bad sign and you should be ready to fight at the first opportunity when this starts happening. It is not uncommon for this to be a precursor to getting rid of witnesses.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)would have probably felt extremely badly if a few people ended up dead and he could have prevented it.
I don't carry a gun and I can't ever see that changing, but sadly, I have personally known one person who was later killed in a robbery, and I have known one person who shot robbers after the robbers began grouping up the girls to lead them off. I suspect he did save the lives of the victims that day. To do it, he took two lives.
He wasn't happy about the whole thing, and never will be. Sometimes all your choices are BAD.
I can't believe that so many people are willing to defend criminals who commit armed robbery. Having a fake gun doesn't change it from the perspective of the victims.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Even if true, the CC customer had no way of knowing that, he saw an ARMED robber who was, according to reports, herding the clerks to the back of the store, which is never a good thing.
http://patch.com/illinois/beverly-mtgreenwood/conceal-carry-permit-holder-kills-robber-during-south-side-store-robbery
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)If it was indeed a toy like you say.
Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #26)
GGJohn This message was self-deleted by its author.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)he is the one that knows it and stated it as fact, lol
heaven05
(18,124 posts)same difference, kill the black person FIRST, then ask questions and/or fit narrative around concocted BS story. To a lot of a certain type/culture of american citizen in this country, black life is cheap and disposable.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)then post a link to any reputable source saying that.
Do we know what ethnicity the CC'er was?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)answers to your queries. Go to it.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)so it's up to you to post proof that it was a fake gun.
FWIW, I've checked every news source I could find and there's not one mention of a fake gun.
The ARMED robber had a mask on and pulled a gun, that would lead any reasonable person to believe that an ARMED robbery was going down.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I don't need you to tell me what's up to me, means nothing as does your need for proof. When I SEE the store cams, I will then make a decision on guilt or innocence. And I am not buying their Trib to see another POC killed, I'll wait for an independent source.
"The Chicago Police Department is wrapping up its investigation and charges do not appear likely," the department said in a statement."
It turns out it was a paint gun, which look very real, and the CPD is saying that charges are unlikely, the video backs up the customer's story.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
procon
(15,805 posts)about another dead black man. Its an easy out for the shoot first, ask questions later crowd, a quick solution all tidied up with some generalized legalese to sooth the concerned and appraise the gunists.
When the state starts endorsing these precrime executions like this man, or Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin example, who's next? Where does gun violence end, maybe when the next "good guy with a gun" is killed by some other "good guy with a gun"? No, I doubt it, because some overwrought gun proselytizer will come up with a sterling defense of the Gun God.
christx30
(6,241 posts)This was a robbery in progress. Mr. Gildersleeve wasn't executed or otherwise punished for his crime. He wasn't an innocent person caught up He was stopped in the commission of a crime (robbery) and before he could commit another (probably murder, otherwise could be false imprisonment or kidnapping). He was leading the employees into backroom of the store. How does that story usually end? If he was at home reading a book or doing nearly anything else, he would be alive right now.
Crime is a dangerous occupation. Never know when one of your victims is going to fight back against you.
procon
(15,805 posts)just because they have guns, good or bad, the outcome is the same. The mere speculation that Gildersleeve might have done this or could have done that, is the same excuse cited to excuse the deaths of Rice and Martin. Robbery is not a capital crime. When death is delivered due to a suspicion of some possible future crime, the pettiness of arguing that it was "right" is inconsequential compared to the continuing long term destruction that escalating gun violence has on our society.
christx30
(6,241 posts)But if you break into someone's home, you stand a good chance of being shot.
Speeding isn't a capital crime. But if you do it, you could hit a fire hydrant and die.
This isn't about being punished for a crime. It's about the direct consequences of Gildersleeve's actions, on him and other people. He was a bad guy. He, and others like him are why self defense laws exist. So the bad guys don't have reign over the rest of society.
And I wouldn't want to trust my life to someone like that. Would you? Gildersleeve's has a gun in your face, and he's taking you into the back of the store? I'm going to hope someone shoots him dead. I wouldn't want someone to wait to see if he kills me.
procon
(15,805 posts)who will dance to whatever tune the flailing gun manufacturers lobby and ALEX is playing. The madness and proliferation of guns that has infected so many red states is a relatively recent event that uniquely coincided with the election of the first black president. Guns are a political wedge issue so there is no reasoning, no logic, no common sense rational to someone who fancies themselves living amidst killer zombies in a Walking Dead sound stage.
In a just world, no one would tolerate any more lame excuses from gun worshipers. Guns and ammunition would be controlled, restricted and regulated, prohibitively expensive, harder to obtain and more difficult to own than a rattlesnake, and the legal requirements for ownership, use, licensing and liability should be at least as restrictive as owning a car or motorcycle.
christx30
(6,241 posts)charged with a crime for defending themselves against a criminal like Gildersleeve? Would that be better?
procon
(15,805 posts)Maybe his aim was off, and instead of shooting the suspected criminal, he kills my husband. Or some gun toting idiot thinks my smart alex nephew is reaching for a gun too, shoots him, and afterwards sees it was a cell phone. I worry that men with guns get drunk and shoot it out, and it may happen in the tavern where I'm having dinner. I worry that guns are weapons intended to kill people, and I don't trust the mental state anyone who thinks they can't leave home without one.
christx30
(6,241 posts)http://abcnews.go.com/US/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder911-operators-shoot/story?id=15285605
and the woman would be charged with the murder of the burglar. Or worse, she hesitates and she's murdered.
People have the right to defend themselves against criminals. You stop the crime. You eliminate the shitheads that pull stupid crap, and I'd be happy to see every gun melted down and turned into park benches.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)I have tons of guns but never carry one. #1 because I feel safe and #2 I would be afraid to use it and hitting somebody else.
Still I think the guy got what he had been asking for for a long time. He was probably a drug addict trying to raise money. I'd be all for free substance abuse detox so he didn't have to rob for his jones. But once he robs he's on his own.
Ace Rothstein
(3,183 posts)Are you really comparing a kid playing with a toy gun to someone who may have used one to hold up a store?
sarisataka
(18,755 posts)There is a certain culture/mindset that sees no difference between a child on a playground and a career criminal engaged in a violent felony.
Rebubula
(2,868 posts)This case is in no way related to Tamir Rice.
Had Tamir Rice herded customers into a walkin while carrying the fake gun and mask - his death would have been on his hands.
according to you. Means nothing to me. Could be a concocted story. Could be BS. You don't know, you were not there. I will believe when I see the store cams, from an independent source, otherwise, NEVER. Have a good day.
Rebubula
(2,868 posts)...will you be back to post an apology if the narrative DOES fit the police report?
my main point is, black life is cheap and hated in this country by many at all class levels. I will not apologize for the truth.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)The fact that he was a felon shot during the commission of a felon is the story, not the race of the dead felon or the race of his shooter. Not sure why you are trying to make this about race.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)NM
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Vast majority of people are going to assume that the gun is real.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Killed for threatening to harm people who did nothing wrong.
Killed for wearing a mask into a business, stating he was there to rob the place, and forcing people to give him money.
Killed for being a felon in the commission of another felony.
Killed for having a toy gun....Who, in their right mind, actually thinks like this?
24601
(3,962 posts)the President.
You have any doubt that they would take the same actions as if it were real?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Paintball guns these days are often extremely realistic:
No idea if this is the sort of paintball gun he had, but there's no reason to assume it was one of the old-style kind that looked only a little like real guns. Those were almost all quite large and bulky compared to real guns...in other words, not the readily-concealed kind that robbers almost universally prefer.
I have no problem with someone assuming this idiot had placed innocent people one twitch of his finger away from being shot.
FLson
(93 posts)And I saw someone in a grocery mart pointing it at others and giving orders to go to the back. It'd just walk away and let happens happens. That's better for everyone. So what if it was a real gun and he murdered all those people. That's not what our society is about. It's about hoping the cops catch the criminals afterwards and put them into the prison industrial complex that helps rich people get richer off human misery while tax dollars are used to subsidize the rich.
I mean just because the guy could have tied the people up while threatening them with a fake gun and then bludgeoned them to death, something a criminal defense client of mine did, with a fire extinguisher doesn't mean someone should stop the act from happening. They should leave and call the cops. And ten minutes to hours later, the cops can do the chalk outlines and go hunt for the guy while two innocent people lay dead. Maybe he'd get caught in this climate of "Don't Snitch" or maybe he'd go murder other people. No one should resist crime or evil, they should just lay down for it and force others to as well.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Welcome to DU.
I'm for gun control. Er uh, I mean gun safety. Everyone knows peace and utopia just requires the banning of guns. Just look at Venezuela, Mexico, and Jamaica.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)And there must have been an attendant. One way or another, the truth should be uncovered.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)I remember my family claiming the same thing when my first cousins husband was blasted for pulling a shotgun on a deputy when being pulled over back in the 70's. Prior to that it was always what a loser thief drunk...
It's just the way families roll.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Many incarcerated claim innocence. That doesn't mean that all prisoners are lying likewise that doesn't mean families always lie either.
Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #10)
LisaL This message was self-deleted by its author.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)And has been sentanced to 37 years total for several other robberies, so in this case Im willing to call bullshit on the family.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)Township75
(3,535 posts)I heard about the handgun ban being overturned but not about this.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Shall issue was passed in IL. in 2013, Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart tried to issue a blanket objection to all citizens living in Cook County, the Illinois State Police, who run the CHL program, basically told him to fuck off on his blanket objections.
mopinko
(70,197 posts)and we sure dont prosecute people for gun crimes the way we should.
Response to Township75 (Original post)
Post removed
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Seems that's what you're doing there darb.
Darb
(2,807 posts)a fraction of the number that the RKHA loyalists do on nearly every single gun topic (skipping only the ones that not even they can pretend to win). What is your motivation, besides post counts? Wink wink.
Ace Rothstein
(3,183 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)If you want to complaint about people with guns, don't stop at just the wrongdoers. No matter who holds it, a gun is made for one purpose; to kill. Our society will continue lurching and weeping from one repellant incident like this to next until the indiscriminate proliferation of guns is stopped.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)Court records, however, reveal another side of Gildersleeve. They show he had been arrested at least half a dozen times dating back to the 1980s. Several arrests had to do with narcotics, but most of the incidents involved theft or robbery. He was in and out of prison, with burglary convictions as recent as 2005.
more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/02/concealed-gun-owner-fatally-shoots-suspected-robber-during-chicago-stick-up/
Beaverhausen
(24,470 posts)A toy gun. Yep.
Throd
(7,208 posts)He made a choice to do something incredibly stupid and dangerous. Lots of people die that way.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's not as if he walked in there and said "Hey, give me all the money or I'll shoot you with this water pistol!"
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Someone not familiar with them would be almost certain to think it was real.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)If you didn't think that the threat was real, you'd tell the asshole to fuck right off.
That's the thing about armed robbery. You don't have to actually be armed, you just have to make your victims think so.
Would you give your money to a guy that you knew was holding a paintball gun? Of course not, that's stupid.
Derp.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Now, why, do you suppose, it got that name?
Darb
(2,807 posts)Got to kill a somebody and will get away with it. I bet he creamed his jeans. It's a dream come true, especially if the guy that got killed was a black man, then he probably had multiple orgasms.
agtcovert
(238 posts)Among responsible, legal carriers, this isn't the kind of thing that induces orgasm.
What a ridiculously offensive post. Somehow you managed to conflate killing with sexual pleasure and racism at the same time. Impressive.
Darb
(2,807 posts)But to the gun humper walking around town strapped all the time, what else is he looking for? He's looking for the opportunity to kill someone. Period. He hit the gun humper lotto, he got the opportunity to kill someone who might or might not have deserved it, but he won't pay a price for it, so whooohooo!!!!
As for the racist part, I'm not seeing that at all, at least not on my end.
christx30
(6,241 posts)when he was leading the employees into the backroom? Recipes?
Darb
(2,807 posts)He's been lugging that weapon around, schlepping day in and day out for what? And finally, the chance to kill someone.
Whooohoo!! He won't have to go to trial or nothing, chances are. I mean, he got to kill a guy, convict him and put him to death right there on the spot, and will get away with it, I suspect. What are the odds? He hit the rude toter lotto.
The criminal....... he was probably looking for money to live on I'd wager.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)In truth, you know nothing about the shooter and are merely airing out your prejudices
Darb
(2,807 posts)for some reason, I'd suspect. He didn't accidentally have it at the ready did he? Did it fall into his pocket from its locked up place in his gun safe? Accidentally? Are you implying that it was his first day rude toting? Now that would be an even bigger rude toter lotto hit....errrrr....ooops, bad choice of words there, I meant rude toter lotto win.
All I am saying is he got what he must have wanted, and it is a long, long, long shot to be in that position. So he hit a long shot. THE RUDE TOTER LOTTO.
What's the problem?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Im at home right now hopping for a fire.
I also have a jack in my car and a spare tire. I hope I can get a flat tire on my drive to work tommorow!!!!
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)Darb
(2,807 posts)Gun humper fantasies. I'm just calling them like I see 'em. I know many rude toters.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Darb
(2,807 posts)He's a rude toter. For some reason he feels the need to tote a gun around. Why?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)sarisataka
(18,755 posts)Your lurid fantasies have no relation to the mental, emotional, and even physical trauma that occurs to a person who has to take another's life.
Only a sociopath would come even close to what you described. Seek help
Darb
(2,807 posts)As he posts pics of himself smoking cigars in a pool, bragging. Or any of those other heroes that killed when they didn't have to.
And by the way, those are gun humper fantasies, not mine. I don't rude tote.
sarisataka
(18,755 posts)Any other incident?
You are so invested in your necro-sexual fantasy you don't even see the victim anymore.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Didn't you say: "no relation to the mental, emotional, and even physical trauma that occurs to a person who has to take another's life"? Well I thought that I would point out that those emotions and trauma that you are bringing into the fray don't seem to apply to other "heroes" now do they?
That necro-sexual thing is a beauty. I think you might be exercising a bit of projection. I don't get off on killing others, rude toters do. Capiche?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)The only other poster known for using the phrase 'rude toters' un-ironically, and claiming
to know how people they'd never met really feel recently admitted to being a pious fraud
Hoyt, is that you?
Darb
(2,807 posts)gun-humper? Sure, I am speculating. But you tell me, why did that shooter have a gun in that place of business? Did he think he might get a shot at an elk?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)sarisataka
(18,755 posts)As for projection...
I am a combat vet. You say I get off on killing? You know nothing about killing.
Go Fuck Yourself
I'll take the hide.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Combat vets are not the same thing as rude toters, in case you were wondering. Combat vets take orders and carry them out. Apples vs. oranges. Unless of course, you were a mercenary?
Why was that shooter carrying a gun in that place of business? Looking for rabbit?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You should be ashamed of yourself.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)Anti-gun DU'ers yawn and blame the guy that shot the shooter and stopped the killing.
Ace Rothstein
(3,183 posts)Beaverhausen
(24,470 posts)With a paint gun?
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)If I was being robbed and some guy with a gun tagged the robber I'd be shaking the hand of the guy who tagged him.
I don't think the police should execute every thief they take into custody, but if somebody is threatening force and is going to ruin a bunch of peoples day well, he had it coming.